PDA

View Full Version : How to kill the Nurgle Daemon Prince



Mithrilherz
03-11-2013, 14:39
I am curious about your ideas.

A friend of mine is almost undefeated since the new WoC book. We play in an uncomped casual environment, and while we usually play for fun and try new lists any time, on of my mates plays a hard core WoC list recently. Everyone else is also annoyed, but what is in the book is fine for them.
So I have to try a broken list myself.

Next to chimera, gore beast chariot, tzeentch chaos warriors, skull crushers ("why do they not have toughness 5?") etc, he plays the unkillable Daemon Prince

Mark of Nurgle, Chaos Armor, fly, scaly skin, charmed shield, dragonban gem
=> armour save 1+, ward save 5+, 2+ against flaming attacks, first wound is ignored on a 2+

My possible ideas, except magic which is not reliable.
Cannons - In my last 3 games with my dwarfs, i was tabled, my runed up cannons failed to bring him down even closely
Stegadons with "sharpened horns" - difficult but possible
Units of trolls - the DP can avoid them easily
Doom Divers - probably best option

Any ideas?

In the moment, i have the following armies ready to play
Dwarfs
Chaos Dwarfs
WoC
Daemons
Lizardmen
Dogs of War
High Elves
Dark Elves
Orcs and Goblins

danny-d-b
03-11-2013, 18:25
cannons are the best bet- just be sure to have something to shoot him with to take out his charmed shield

thesoundofmusica
03-11-2013, 18:46
Nothing will reliably kill the flying nurgle DP. Thats the problem really. Your best bet outside of magic is shooting or a flier (or at the very least mounted) because any regular unit capable of beating the DP is unlikely to get into combat with him.
But for a decent shot try:

Cannons
Bolt throwers
Bloodthirster
Tricked out Oldblood
High elves are pretty good at MSU denying the DP targets to make his points back
O&G can really build towards anti-armor and smash WoC

Magic is unreliable sure, but most armies have some way of generating powerdice to beef up their casting.
A shooty army with mindrazor will either force the DP to charge in and possibly face mindrazor or he will stay out of combat and get shot up. Or Cacophonic choir with Daemons. Can even target the DP when he's in combat.

Don Zeko
03-11-2013, 18:48
VC Banshee screams and the Casket of Souls are both pretty good options.

Mithrilherz
03-11-2013, 20:16
Some good ideas already, thanks a lot.
If you have more, keep going.

The bearded one
03-11-2013, 20:32
Go to the source:

Kill its owner.

Shadeseraph
03-11-2013, 21:46
Remember, though, that the shield is 2+ against the first suffered -hit-. So you'll have to get dirty if you decide to go with TBO's suggestion.

Also, you can stripe the "ward" given by the shield with normal shooting. You don't need to wound.

As a high elf player, my suggestion is to bring a couple RBTs and some solid blocks, and flee like crazy if he tries any long range charge against anything that cannot kill it, and set countercharges with things that can. Even if he manages to destroy the unit, he is left supportless in front of your killy units (say White Lions and the like) or ready to be shot to death by your RBTs. If he tries to keep a low profile, more turns for you to try to shot it down.


skull crushers ("why do they not have toughness 5?")

I know, they'd be so much easier to kill with T5 and only 2 wounds...

byrothegyro
03-11-2013, 21:56
supped up amber spear is always nice too

rocdocta
04-11-2013, 05:48
whats its leadership? could try to death magic snipe it or even more reliable would be lore of metal.

wound it automatically and no armour save altho it gets the 2+ ward save. the withering to drop the toughness for regular shooting to whittle it down

thesoundofmusica
04-11-2013, 07:06
whats its leadership? could try to death magic snipe it or even more reliable would be lore of metal.

wound it automatically and no armour save altho it gets the 2+ ward save. the withering to drop the toughness for regular shooting to whittle it down

You dont auto wound, 1s fail to wound. And that 2+ ward save will kill searing doom etc.

Boosted Amber spear has a decent chance. DP is Ld9 and S6 so Death snipes are unlikely to kill it.
Touch of Bjuna is ok but you are not likely to get a 12" spell off against a flier.

Mithrilherz
04-11-2013, 10:53
Remember, though, that the shield is 2+ against the first suffered -hit-. So you'll have to get dirty if you decide to go with TBO's suggestion.

Also, you can stripe the "ward" given by the shield with normal shooting. You don't need to wound.

As a high elf player, my suggestion is to bring a couple RBTs and some solid blocks, and flee like crazy if he tries any long range charge against anything that cannot kill it, and set countercharges with things that can. Even if he manages to destroy the unit, he is left supportless in front of your killy units (say White Lions and the like) or ready to be shot to death by your RBTs. If he tries to keep a low profile, more turns for you to try to shot it down.



I know, they'd be so much easier to kill with T5 and only 2 wounds...

The German Rule book states that for the Charmed shield, the first wound will be negated. This is worth to reconfirm with GW.

Althwen
04-11-2013, 11:11
- Another DP of Nurgle might have a chance :)
- A Chaos lord of Tzeentch with the 3++, re-roll 1's, can at least tank it. Potion of strength and Fencer's blades? 6 attacks that hit on 4's strength 8... risky, but it'll get you started at least. Put him on a disk to catch him.
- A Vampire Lord might be able to make a dent if equipped with ASF and potion of strength. Put him on a nightmare to catch the DP.
- Any item that manipulates miscasts. I don't know how many of those remain in the 8th ed. books though.

All in all I think the Terrorgheist's scream is one of your best bets together with your standard artillery solutions.

Zinch
04-11-2013, 11:18
The German Rule book states that for the Charmed shield, the first wound will be negated. This is worth to reconfirm with GW.

Look for an errata, because in english (and spanish if it means anything) it clearly states that it is the first HIT, not the first wound... Also, Opal amulet is a 4++ for the first wound and it costs 15 points...

Edit: What this means is that if you shot it with some handguns first, your cannon should be enough to kill it (DON'T put the rune of fire on your cannons if you anticipe a DP...)

Lord Inquisitor
04-11-2013, 11:58
Obviously BS shooting to strip the shield and then cannons is the easiest way.

After that any spell that ignores armour saves is a good bet. Cacophonic is a good one.

Light choir will do the job, hit him in the face with a S8 banishment and job's a good un.

Impact hits, especially high strength are the best in combat because they hit automatically. Form your ogres deep and belly flop him! But generally this is an act of last resort once he has made combat.

SilasOfTheLambs
04-11-2013, 13:34
One sneaky good way of knocking the DP off is actually Throgg. DP does not like taking all those armor skipping auto-hits at s5, and since people (wisely) generally don't take them flaming, and since Throgg is not stompable, he can probably tank the DP's relatively small number of attacks for some time, particularly if you're running lore of Nurgle to buff him or lore of death/shadow to nerf the DP. Of course, Throgg then has a s8 beatstick which he'll have a very hard time hitting with, but if he does, DP has 6+/5++, which isn't great.

OnG also have a credible option in very cheap bolt thrower spam.

Lord Inquisitor
04-11-2013, 13:42
Throgg will trash him easily, as will Galrauch as I discovered. Galrauch's breath is a really unpleasant surprise for any model in combat with him, particularly in a challenge.

SilasOfTheLambs
04-11-2013, 14:23
His stats are pretty good, but death-sniping can also be fairly capable here. Spirit leech will take some time because your wizard will probably have to out-roll him on the d6, but even a DP with two wounds is more reluctant to get into combat with most units than one with all four.

thesoundofmusica
04-11-2013, 16:00
but even a DP with two wounds is more reluctant to get into combat with most units than one with all four.

Thats not what I've found. Outside of combat is your best bet of wounding him. Inside combat he will smash almost any unit and possibly heal.

mostlyharmless
04-11-2013, 16:08
Honestly? A better Nurgle Daemon Prince. Throw down your own Daemon Prince of Nurgle with the Glittering Scales. This means he is hitting your daemon prince on 6's while you are hitting his on 5's. Attrition is in your favor in this instance.

byrothegyro
04-11-2013, 16:23
Honestly? A better Nurgle Daemon Prince. Throw down your own Daemon Prince of Nurgle with the Glittering Scales. This means he is hitting your daemon prince on 6's while you are hitting his on 5's. Attrition is in your favor in this instance.

except the DP without glittering scales is gonna have a sword of striking so he still hits on 5's and then your glittering scales DP will have a lower armor save against him so that's a bad plan.

Ero-Senin
05-11-2013, 08:41
except the DP without glittering scales is gonna have a sword of striking so he still hits on 5's and then your glittering scales DP will have a lower armor save against him so that's a bad plan.

You can't have glittering scales and chaos armour as they are both armours I believe.

Roshan
05-11-2013, 11:00
I would point out that in some gaming circles and indeed some tournaments the charmed shield is useless against cannons ( or indeed most templates ) as it has been ruled in the past the templates dont specifically roll to hit therefore cant trigger the shield.

Not saying its right or wrong, just how ive seen it played :)

mypantsarefree3
06-11-2013, 00:36
Hmmmm, if they argue that it doesnt trigger the shield, which works on the first hit (not first to-hit roll), then I would say back that the template never hit and the Prince is unscathed :)


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk (http://tapatalk.com/m?id=1)

thesoundofmusica
06-11-2013, 05:43
I would point out that in some gaming circles and indeed some tournaments the charmed shield is useless against cannons ( or indeed most templates ) as it has been ruled in the past the templates dont specifically roll to hit therefore cant trigger the shield.

Not saying its right or wrong, just how ive seen it played :)

Definately wrong.
The section about how to resolve cannon fire mentions "HIT" 8 times one of them being a paragraph header saying " WHO IS HIT?" in bold. So yeah whoever argued that cannonballs dont "hit" was increadibly stupid, or perhaps those that let him get away with it.

Mithrilherz
06-11-2013, 07:34
There have been some good ideas, thanks a lot.

My next matches against my mate will have one of the following set ups, depending on which army I will play (not decided yet)
Dwarfs: Neutralise the charmed shield with cross bows, then crush him with cannons and bolt throwers
Orcs: Neutralise the charmed shield with bows, then crush him with doom divers and bolt throwers
WoC: Monster-Mash (I always wanted to try) with Kholek Suneater, Throgg, a lot of Chaos Trolls and Chaos Ogers

The f....... Nurgel Prince shall burn!!! ;-)

Imperator64
07-11-2013, 19:36
How does the wisdom of the internet suggest that High Elves deal with this monster?

Don Zeko
07-11-2013, 19:41
How does the wisdom of the internet suggest that High Elves deal with this monster?

Bolt throwers, light magic, phoenix guard, banner of the world dragon.

Shadeseraph
07-11-2013, 21:35
How does the wisdom of the internet suggest that High Elves deal with this monster?

According to "internet wisdom"? BotWD, for sure. Remember to place 75%+ of your army in that single unit, that way you won't care about the DP.

If you want something a bit more productive, I think my answer previously could help a bit.

Korpacz
07-11-2013, 21:58
There are a lot of easy ways to kill him, most of them being shooting/magic because they don't roll to hit. For example a Terrorgheist on average should kill a nurgle DP with one scream. Keep in mind though the nurgle DP is 550+ points and is both the army's general AND spellcaster. He should NOT be easy to kill. Most WoC players know there are a lot of ways to kill him so they build their lists AROUND him to minimize the chance he takes a cannonball to the face. For example you'll see a lot of folks with trolls and chimera that are used as cannonball screens for the DP. Because WoC players put in so much effort protecting the DP it makes it that much harder to kill him, especially using conventional methods like ramming a steam tank, trolls or hellpit abom into him.

The other thing to keep in mind is that he's only S6, so a 1+ armor save unit will hold him up for a long long time. Plus he's a character so you can throw your unit champ under the bus to save your unit for 1 whole turn. Locking him down for half the game is an effective option for dealing with him as well.

SilasOfTheLambs
08-11-2013, 21:41
The other thing to keep in mind is that he's only S6, so a 1+ armor save unit will hold him up for a long long time. Plus he's a character so you can throw your unit champ under the bus to save your unit for 1 whole turn. Locking him down for half the game is an effective option for dealing with him as well.

This. The effectiveness of the Daemon Prince as a tar pit has been well publicized, but it's generally ignore that he normally costs more than whatever it is he's tar pitting.

Lordcypress
08-11-2013, 22:59
I don't normally post cheeky comments but my Nurgle Deamon Prince has never died. I playtested him in a 2500pts with Throgg and super horde of 18 trolls for about 8-9 games. Then entered a local tournament and won the whole damn thing. So ya I've only played roughly 12 games with him but he has never died yet. And now I have retired him. My friends beg to bring him out but I never will :D

thesoundofmusica
08-11-2013, 23:13
@ Korpacz

Yeah because as a flying monster you can simply lock him down with whatever unit he cannot beat at your leisure.
And nobody knew!?

Edit: and please please dont say there are alot of easy ways to kill him because there arent. There are a few consistent ways of dealing with him spread across 16 armies some of which are really struggling.

Blkc57
08-11-2013, 23:16
Its easy to bring the guy down, just play Ogres. Use two Ironblasters and a unit of Maneaters with pistols and posion. Maneaters easily chip the charmed shield away and put possibly a wound on the guy, then Ironblasters mop up. You can do all of this before he even gets to go. Congrats on your win.

My other fav move is to use the banner of flame on the Maneaters and target only enough shots at the Demon prince to chip his charmed force field down, then fire the rest at the chimeras to wither their wounds on the same turn, all possible with sniper. After that again its mop up time for the Ironblasters and even the Leadbelchers if you went full on Ogre gunline.

MOMUS
10-11-2013, 08:48
As a lizardmen player I'm thinking skinks to strip the chard shield and then just avoid him or 'keep him honest' with placement of an old blood and death magic Slann, I once got a sneaky one two combo of arcane unforging and then the metal sig spell.

I'm not sure if an oldblood is really a match?
(Cold one, GW, armour of destiny, other tricksters shard?)

thesoundofmusica
10-11-2013, 09:15
I think an oldblood on coldone with GW can have 1+ rerollable armor, 4+ ward save and the other tricksters shard.
He can kill a DP.

MOMUS
10-11-2013, 09:49
Dawnstone! I forgot!

Somebody do the math?

NixonAsADaemonPrince
10-11-2013, 11:20
You called?

Right, the Oldblood has 5 ~WS6 S7 attacks with a great weapon if I remember correctly? And is T5? And I assume he's on a high horse of some kind so he can't get stomped?

If this is so:

DP goes first: ~0.347 wounds per turn on the Oldblood
Oldblood: ~0.823 wounds per turn on the DP

With these stats, the Oldblood will kill the DP by the 5th round of combat on average, having sustained approx 2 wounds himself.

MOMUS
10-11-2013, 11:48
I just called out your name
And I know wherever you are
You'll come running
To see me again

General, background or rules
All I gotta do is call
And you'll be there yea yea yea
You gotta MOMUS





PS thanks for the math :yes: I better make that oldblood sharpish

logan054
10-11-2013, 12:05
You called?

Right, the Oldblood has 5 ~WS6 S7 attacks with a great weapon if I remember correctly? And is T5? And I assume he's on a high horse of some kind so he can't get stomped?

If this is so:

DP goes first: ~0.347 wounds per turn on the Oldblood
Oldblood: ~0.823 wounds per turn on the DP

With these stats, the Oldblood will kill the DP by the 5th round of combat on average, having sustained approx 2 wounds himself.

I think it's more 0.6 wounds assuming the old blood ever got into a position to ever get into combat with daemon prince and did get a purple sun to the face ;)

MOMUS
10-11-2013, 13:00
0.6 is still pretty good

thesoundofmusica
10-11-2013, 15:17
Oldblood
GW, coldone, 1+ rerollable, 4+ ward save, the other tricksters shard, predatory fighter

DP
MoN, 1+ armor save, 5+ ward save, sword of striking, soulfeeder, flame breath

DP will do 0.35 wounds to the oldblood, heal himself 0.06 wounds by soulfeeder
One time flame breath will do 0.03 wounds to the oldblood

Oldblood will do 0.96 wounds to the DP
Coldone will do 0.01 wounds to the DP

thesoundofmusica
10-11-2013, 15:28
I think it's more 0.6 wounds

You probably forgot Predatory fighter and the other tricksters shard.

NixonAsADaemonPrince
10-11-2013, 17:23
@MOMOID: :willow:

I forgot about Predatory Fighter, good catch :)

Montegue
13-11-2013, 01:48
For dwarfs -

Shoot your flaming rune cannon first. This will strip the charmed shield, because it stops the first hit, not the first wound. And since he's a 2+ to fire anyway! it's the most reliable way to hit the dp on turn one. Once the shield is down, hit him with your other cannon or cannons. He should fail a ward at some point.

If needs be, use your grudge thrower with accuracy and penetration. Accuracy should make it a coin flip on a direct hit.

If you fail on turn one, he'll be in organ gun range turn two.

MOMUS
13-11-2013, 19:42
For dwarfs -

Shoot your flaming rune cannon first. This will strip the charmed shield, because it stops the first hit, not the first wound. And since he's a 2+ to fire anyway! it's the most reliable way to hit the dp on turn one. Once the shield is down, hit him with your other cannon or cannons. He should fail a ward at some point.

If needs be, use your grudge thrower with accuracy and penetration. Accuracy should make it a coin flip on a direct hit.

If you fail on turn one, he'll be in organ gun range turn two.


Cannons are boring dude, take him on with a tooled up dwarf lord, every time he kills a daemon prince mount the head on his base. By the time he reaches the same eye level as Mr flying nurgle I garantee WoC players will shy away.




I forgot about Predatory Fighter


Noof!!!! :mad:

NixonAsADaemonPrince
14-11-2013, 00:00
Noof!!!! :mad:

Spank me later.

TsukeFox
02-12-2013, 21:13
I am curious about your ideas.

A friend of mine is almost undefeated since the new WoC book. We play in an uncomped casual environment, and while we usually play for fun and try new lists any time, on of my mates plays a hard core WoC list recently. Everyone else is also annoyed, but what is in the book is fine for them.
So I have to try a broken list myself.

Next to chimera, gore beast chariot, tzeentch chaos warriors, skull crushers ("why do they not have toughness 5?") etc, he plays the unkillable Daemon Prince

Mark of Nurgle, Chaos Armor, fly, scaly skin, charmed shield, dragonban gem
=> armour save 1+, ward save 5+, 2+ against flaming attacks, first wound is ignored on a 2+

My possible ideas, except magic which is not reliable.
Cannons - In my last 3 games with my dwarfs, i was tabled, my runed up cannons failed to bring him down even closely
Stegadons with "sharpened horns" - difficult but possible
Units of trolls - the DP can avoid them easily
Doom Divers - probably best option

Any ideas?

In the moment, i have the following armies ready to play
Dwarfs
Chaos Dwarfs
WoC
Daemons
Lizardmen
Dogs of War
High Elves
Dark Elves
Orcs and Goblins

Nothing casual about uncomped gaming if your friend is using a cheeZy mean fun ender like the daemon prince tooled up.

Honestly if the DP does not die by turn 2 to shooting then you might as well rack up the pieces and start over cause the daemon prince is not going to lose wounds in combat.

So long as daemon prince is unbreakable the guy really ruins the game. Stubborn is just as good and at least gives a hope that it will be beaten in close combat

RecklessAbandon
02-12-2013, 22:33
Doom divers

Alternately play at 2000 points or less and he can't afford the DP the way he has it built

But yeah a goblin artillery battery surrounded by night goblins with fanatics and maybe Skarsnik?

Citadel97501
03-12-2013, 04:11
High Elves...

Frost Phoenix, wins...
Caradryan on Frost Phoenix, kills him in one round...
Dragon Prince Bus with Spell Support...especially with the BotWD as his attacks are magic and he doesn't get non-magical stomps, even the breath weapon bounces off.

Mozzamanx
03-12-2013, 14:14
High Elves...

Frost Phoenix, wins...
Caradryan on Frost Phoenix, kills him in one round...
Dragon Prince Bus with Spell Support...especially with the BotWD as his attacks are magic and he doesn't get non-magical stomps, even the breath weapon bounces off.

The Phoenix is going to lose this fight, with or without Caradryan. I cannot help but think you've underestimated what this beast does to people.
Both Caradryan and Ashtari go first. They hit on 5's and get no rerolls because the Prince has silly WS, I and -1 to hit. Caradryan slaps out 0.222 wounds a turn, Ashtari goes with 0.366. You'd be lucky to kill him in 7 rounds of combat, even before Soul Feeder comes in. The absolute best shot you have is hoping to deal a single wound and then roll a '3' when Caradryan gets slaughtered, and hope the opponent cannot pass any Ward saves.
In return he stamps out 4.4 hits a turn, translating to either killing Caradryan in a single turn or Ashtari over ~5 rounds depending on Ward save.

Admittedly, anything with the Banner would probably 'win' but I doubt Dragon Princes would have enough rounds of combat to actually kill him. Lions would kill, but then there is the problem of catching it.

Garathiel
03-12-2013, 15:00
Hellebron?
Bretonnian heroic killing blow?

:)

facepalm
03-12-2013, 17:15
You could take a night goblin army just made up of min sized night goblin units each with 3 fanatics, there for every time he wants to get into combat with anything he has to take up to 3 fanatics to the face and even then he only kills 20 goblins costing 10% of his points cost. I would do it just once to make a point.

Baluc
03-12-2013, 23:32
The Phoenix is going to lose this fight, with or without Caradryan. I cannot help but think you've underestimated what this beast does to people.
Both Caradryan and Ashtari go first. They hit on 5's and get no rerolls because the Prince has silly WS, I and -1 to hit. Caradryan slaps out 0.222 wounds a turn, Ashtari goes with 0.366. You'd be lucky to kill him in 7 rounds of combat, even before Soul Feeder comes in. The absolute best shot you have is hoping to deal a single wound and then roll a '3' when Caradryan gets slaughtered, and hope the opponent cannot pass any Ward saves.
In return he stamps out 4.4 hits a turn, translating to either killing Caradryan in a single turn or Ashtari over ~5 rounds depending on Ward save.

Admittedly, anything with the Banner would probably 'win' but I doubt Dragon Princes would have enough rounds of combat to actually kill him. Lions would kill, but then there is the problem of catching it.

To be honest HE's should be pelting a DP with 4 bolt throwers, or Mind razored something.

Citadel97501
04-12-2013, 04:41
Ah your correct Caradryan doesn't do much on wounds, I forgot the DP had a 2+ against flaming attacks, and I thought he was Unstable not unbreakable. That is why I thought the Dragon Princes would have splatted him, 3+ combat resolution I thought might be enough.

CauCaSus
04-12-2013, 09:18
Dwellers below is as good a spell as any if you want to use magic. A 1/6 chance of killing him outright isn't as bad as a lot of other things.

SteveW
04-12-2013, 14:43
With the armies I play.

With orcs n goblins: BS shooting, then doom divers. I have also managed to kill one in single combat with a savage orc warboss on a boar wearing armor of mork wielding a great weapon.

Brets: BS shooting, then trebs. Or you can HKB him.

Wood Elves: Don't know, it might be close to impossible. I pretty much want to forfeit when someone plops one down against my woodies.

Tomb Kings: Luck? Light of death does a decent job and a Necrosphinx has managed to kill on once.

Kingly
04-12-2013, 15:03
I slaughtered one using a unit of Sword masters with banner, but then who wouldn't if they're stupid enough to charge that unit with a DP...

mostlyharmless
04-12-2013, 15:08
Swordmasters with Banner of the World Dragon, supported by a mage using lore of shadow. Engage daemon prince with swordmasters. Cast multiple debuffs on the daemon prince. Cast Occam's Mindrazor on the Swordmasters. Watch the daemon prince melt. Lather, rinse, repeat.

Symrivven
04-12-2013, 16:46
Any option that relies on infantry is far from reliably. You'd just have to hope the DP flies into that one unit that happens to be tooled up to deal with it. And while even good players can make mistakes no one is going to fall for that twice.

thesoundofmusica
04-12-2013, 16:51
Just engage the flying DP with your M5 infantry, simple as!

mostlyharmless
04-12-2013, 17:11
No one ever said it was a perfect plan. Where did I say it was a perfect plan?

Mithrilherz
05-12-2013, 20:12
Nothing casual about uncomped gaming if your friend is using a cheeZy mean fun ender like the daemon prince tooled up.

Honestly if the DP does not die by turn 2 to shooting then you might as well rack up the pieces and start over cause the daemon prince is not going to lose wounds in combat.

So long as daemon prince is unbreakable the guy really ruins the game. Stubborn is just as good and at least gives a hope that it will be beaten in close combat

Unfortunately I have to agree. He is the only one in pur gaming group with most competetive lists. It is a shame really.

Citadel97501
05-12-2013, 23:14
Stop complaining about the BotWD, it is not cheese it is a valid item and is important because of how many people try the hero hammer approach, hell most monsters still eat that unit, like the ubiquitous Chimera.

Kayosiv
08-12-2013, 09:33
So long as daemon prince is unbreakable the guy really ruins the game. Stubborn is just as good and at least gives a hope that it will be beaten in close combat

I think this is the biggest offender by far of all the things that is wrong with the demon prince. Yes, a 1+ armor save on something that is often hit on 6's and has a lot of wounds is bad. The ability to heals wounds fairly easily for a cheap price is bad. The ability to outfight the strongest characters in the game while also being a level 4 wizard is bad. The unbreakable, is what breaks it.

I with he was either demonically unstable or stubborn. I could forgive much of the other stuff if he actually had any chance at all to die if he lost combat instead of just going wherever he pleased without consequence.

SteveW
09-12-2013, 01:38
T5 with 4 wounds, that is not all that hard to kill.

byrothegyro
09-12-2013, 01:47
T5 with 4 wounds, that is not all that hard to kill.
Except when it has ws 9, int 8, -1 to be hit, a 1+/5++, and soul feeder.

dooms33ker
09-12-2013, 04:40
Dunno if this has been mentioned but a 229 point Bret Lord has a good chance at killing a fully kitted-out Nurgle DP in one round of combat. Take the virtue of Heroism for Heroic Killing blow, Gold Sigil Sword so you will strike before the DP, Curiass of fortune to re-roll any 1s when rolling to wound, Tress of Isoulde to hit the DP on 2s, and a dragon-helm, not for the DP but as a general utility item.

So with your four attacks, you're likely hitting with all four, rounding up the odds, and then all you need is one 6 and a failed 5+ ward save for the DP to bite the dust. In an ideal situation you cast Savage Beast of Horros for a total of 7 heroic killing blow attacks hitting on 2s.

I doubt it is the most reliable way to kill a DP, but it is very cost efficient.

Fighting Newfoundlander
09-12-2013, 04:52
Expensive as all hell, but Grimgor in a block of Black Orcs should do well, just be sure to turn down his challenge. Should get 12 S7 attacks, hitting on 5+ with a reroll. That's about 7 hits wounding on 2+ with -4 to his armour save. Should toast him. Steam Tanks make Nurgle DP cry. Trolls are just gross with no to hit and no armour save.

dooms33ker
09-12-2013, 04:55
Expensive as all hell, but Grimgor in a block of Black Orcs should do well, just be sure to turn down his challenge. Should get 12 S7 attacks, hitting on 5+ with a reroll. That's about 7 hits wounding on 2+ with -4 to his armour save. Should toast him. Steam Tanks make Nurgle DP cry. Trolls are just gross with no to hit and no armour save.

Grimgor refusing a challenge? What madness is this? Also, you're paying about 300 points (I forgot how much he costs exactly) for what amounts to hatred. Besides that, you're likely hitting the DP on 6s if it has glittering scales.

SteveW
09-12-2013, 06:13
Except when it has ws 9, int 8, -1 to be hit, a 1+/5++, and soul feeder.

Okay, so here's the strategy of taking one down with my orcs n goblins.
Magic: Throw a unit of night goblins at him with fanatics. Then given that it probably wont kill him, hit him with brain bursta, edbut, and gaze. Magic being unreliable usually means none of this happens.
Shooting: Shoot any BS shooting at him to take off his charmed shield. Then go to town with the lobba, doom divers, and chukkas. He should be good and dead at that point.

After a round of that you've either killed him or he's hiding and you can focus on killing the obligatory Skullcrushers.

All of this negates the things that make him scary(High stats and the -1 to be hit in CC)

Other armies have tools to kill him as well.

Symrivven
09-12-2013, 13:11
Dunno if this has been mentioned but a 229 point Bret Lord has a good chance at killing a fully kitted-out Nurgle DP in one round of combat. Take the virtue of Heroism for Heroic Killing blow, Gold Sigil Sword so you will strike before the DP, Curiass of fortune to re-roll any 1s when rolling to wound, Tress of Isoulde to hit the DP on 2s, and a dragon-helm, not for the DP but as a general utility item.

So with your four attacks, you're likely hitting with all four, rounding up the odds, and then all you need is one 6 and a failed 5+ ward save for the DP to bite the dust. In an ideal situation you cast Savage Beast of Horros for a total of 7 heroic killing blow attacks hitting on 2s.

I doubt it is the most reliable way to kill a DP, but it is very cost efficient.

With a chance of 0.4 of getting of that Kb in the first turn its still a gamble, but certainly something the DP should try to avoid especially considering the price disparity (assuming the charmed shield has been removed already).

thesoundofmusica
09-12-2013, 22:01
Okay, so here's the strategy of taking one down with my orcs n goblins.
Magic: Throw a unit of night goblins at him with fanatics. Then given that it probably wont kill him, hit him with brain bursta, edbut, and gaze. Magic being unreliable usually means none of this happens.
Shooting: Shoot any BS shooting at him to take off his charmed shield. Then go to town with the lobba, doom divers, and chukkas. He should be good and dead at that point.

After a round of that you've either killed him or he's hiding and you can focus on killing the obligatory Skullcrushers.

All of this negates the things that make him scary(High stats and the -1 to be hit in CC)

Other armies have tools to kill him as well.

I love how casually you dismiss the Woc flying nurgle DP, considering he's one of the most powerful units in the game.
You have exactly that one round of shooting to kill him with your Orcs&Goblins before he proceeds wrecking your army likely aiming for any SO/BO horde. Even at one wound remaining he's safest in combat striking before your guys and regenerating a wound on average rolls with flame breath + attacks and your SO/BO horde will need some remarkable rolling to kill him off averaging 0,37 and 0.44 wounds respectively. After that comes thunderstomp and striking first next round etc likely to heal more wounds than your poor guys can dish out. Meanwhile throwing Psun down your ranks those hordes (or anythong in your army really) will die surprisingly fast.

Especially that night goblin tactic is very likely to succed considering he's a flyng monster, I think he has a slight edge in maneuvering.

Gaze of mork, brainbursta? Are you serious? 'eadbutt looks abit better but still terrible.

As the thread already established, there are few reliable ways of dealing with the Woc flying nurgle DP spread across many armies. O&Gs happen to be packing quite alot of shooting and anti-armor in their book, everyone isnt as lucky. And even then if he gets into combat you're not likely to kill him.

SteveW
09-12-2013, 22:24
And even then if he gets into combat you're not likely to kill him.

Yeah, I thought I stressed the whole not getting into combat with my post that didn't include smacking him with a combat block.

Montegue
09-12-2013, 22:29
Except when it has ws 9, int 8, -1 to be hit, a 1+/5++, and soul feeder.

A charmed shield, a Dragon Bane Gem....don't forget about those.

Dwarf Lords tooled up to tank can hold one of these in place *IF* they can get into combat with them (not bloody likely), but outside of that, it's cannons and Organ Guns and a lot of hope to stop him.

Kalandros
09-12-2013, 23:00
Warpflame did him in for me.... yep. That useless Warpflame.
10 Pink Horrors, turn 1, Gateway, put 3 wounds on it...

End of magic phase, rolls a 6 for Warpflame, takes an additional d3 wounds, failed at least 1 ward save for the 4th wound.
Welp. That's that.

TsukeFox
10-12-2013, 03:33
Warpflame did him in for me.... yep. That useless Warpflame.
10 Pink Horrors, turn 1, Gateway, put 3 wounds on it...

End of magic phase, rolls a 6 for Warpflame, takes an additional d3 wounds, failed at least 1 ward save for the 4th wound.
Welp. That's that.

Is the daemon princes head now
Mounted onto one of your standards oh great General ??

That's awesome

Kalandros
10-12-2013, 05:11
Its an even better victory that he finished his own model by failing the Toughness test.
Always great to let your opponent damage himself.

Citadel97501
10-12-2013, 05:38
I was thinking about a High Mobility mage such as a High Elf Archmage on a Great Eagle, with the lore of death? If he is level 4, he should be able to hit the DP with Soul Blight and then the Fate of Bjuna. On an average roll you should be doing 1.6 wounds or more.

Daemon Prince
-Strength 6
-Toughness 5

This would work even better with another cheap Lore of Shadows mage, this should allow you to hit him solidly for 4 wounds.

Fate of Bjuna: 13+, Withering: 13+
-Magic Dice: 6 to 7 dice with average rolls
-Toughness: -2 on average for a 3
-This does 2.2 wounds on average and makes it easier to kill him.

Caress of Laneph: 6+, Enfeebling Foe: 10+ (or a 13+)
-Magic Dice: 5 dice with average rolls
-Strength: -2 on average for a 4
-This does 1 wound on average so kind of meh...

dooms33ker
10-12-2013, 06:25
With a chance of 0.4 of getting of that Kb in the first turn its still a gamble, but certainly something the DP should try to avoid especially considering the price disparity (assuming the charmed shield has been removed already).

40% of the time it works every time.

Yersinia Pestis
10-12-2013, 06:36
I field a Nurgle DP too and he's only scared of cannons etc.... (hint?)
The fact that those things do D6 wounds is scary..... Stone throwers could work just as well, that is, if you roll a Hit!
For the rest, you could allways try to soften it up with hexes and then come in with a unit that does a lot of attacks (chariots, a horde of witch elves with the cauldron thingy,...). But then again, seeing as it flies, that'll be difficult to achieve.
Nope, cannons are the best option in my opinion.

Skywave
10-12-2013, 06:53
If I was to face him regularly with my Tomb Kings, I'd try to combine a Archers horde with Khalida, a unit of 4 Stalkers and the Casket. The archers could be about 40 models (no need to go overkill here with a gigantic unit, you might have to swift-reform to follow him going circle around you), and with smiting you get 40 poison shots even when moving, 60 if you don't. With the number of shot, you might push one, maybe two wounds trough with luck!

The Stalkers are a one-hit chance though, after that he'll move away and be out of range for the rest of the game, but you can easily get between 20-30 hits with them and every 6's you roll goes directly to the ward save. Of course they need to pop out on turn 2 ideally, otherwise you might find the Prince in combat, then the Stalkers will be powerless.

The Casket can also be a great help to help in the killing (and help to cast smiting) as usual.

mirloor
10-12-2013, 07:55
He happy gay banner all the way, it trumpts everythin with magical attacks

thesoundofmusica
10-12-2013, 07:55
Yeah, I thought I stressed the whole not getting into combat with my post that didn't include smacking him with a combat block.

I was just pointing out that most of the ideas you had wont scare the DP at all and you were wrong in your assumption that after shooting he is dead or hiding. He will be dead or in combat smashing your army, because that is the safest place for him to be and its hard keeping him from picking combats since he's flying.

Kalandros
10-12-2013, 08:00
Doom Divers also get quite a good shot at killing him

Too bad the skull cannon is always flaming when shooting~ what with that easymode 2+ ward vs fire....

The_Spaniel
10-12-2013, 15:24
I'd say your best bet is to use some shooting to take out the first wound being negated and then throw a boosted Amber Spear at it

SteveW
10-12-2013, 16:00
I'd say your best bet is to use some shooting to take out the first wound being negated and then throw a boosted Amber Spear at it

With magic coming before shooting you'd be better off flock of dooming him then amber spear. Unless you want to take two turns to do it.

Mithrilherz
10-12-2013, 20:26
It seems to me that I have created the right thread which had hit the right nerve of many players.

Many of the suggestions in this thread are good, but require many resources of your army, just to bring one model down.
And then these resources are not available for the rest of the "weak" WoC book:
Chimera, Gore beast Chariot, normal Chariots, Skull Crushers, Tzeentch Chaos Warrior Bus, ect.

Anyway, whining does not help. WoC is the top tier army in the moment, and we have to deal with it.
I play WoC myself from time to time by the way, but I avoid this kind of list.

For my next WoC game in January, I plan a themed fun list: The Beasts of the Chaos Wastes:
Kholek, Throgg, Chaos Trolls, Chaos Ogres, Chaos Hounds, Dragon Ogres and Chaos Giant only.
This list is not that competetive, but I always wanted to try it and it will be a fun game.

Citadel97501
11-12-2013, 00:54
Frankly I don't think of WoC as the top tier, but as "a Top Tier army".

godswearhats
12-12-2013, 03:36
Wood Elves: Don't know, it might be close to impossible. I pretty much want to forfeit when someone plops one down against my woodies.


There are several tools in the Wood Elf army, but none are simple. Amber Spear is the obvious one, but not foolproof. I've done it once. Multiple characters with Savage Beast - also tricky.

A Treeman Ancient with Annoyance of Netlings takes the DP out for the game - DP only hits on 6s and wounds on 4s and a 6+ AS. Trying to take down a 6 wound model that way takes a long time. Of course the Treeman only hits on 5s, wounds on 3s. Both models typically have a way to heal. My buddy and I simulates this combat and it takes longer than 5 game turns (10 turns of combat) to resolve.

2 turns of shooting from 50 Glade Guard will also do it, assuming you throw in one hail of doom arrow. You'll get 1 wound from the long range shots and 3 more at close range.

Don Zeko
12-12-2013, 05:06
I was thinking about a High Mobility mage such as a High Elf Archmage on a Great Eagle, with the lore of death? If he is level 4, he should be able to hit the DP with Soul Blight and then the Fate of Bjuna. On an average roll you should be doing 1.6 wounds or more.

Daemon Prince
-Strength 6
-Toughness 5

This would work even better with another cheap Lore of Shadows mage, this should allow you to hit him solidly for 4 wounds.

Fate of Bjuna: 13+, Withering: 13+
-Magic Dice: 6 to 7 dice with average rolls
-Toughness: -2 on average for a 3
-This does 2.2 wounds on average and makes it easier to kill him.

Caress of Laneph: 6+, Enfeebling Foe: 10+ (or a 13+)
-Magic Dice: 5 dice with average rolls
-Strength: -2 on average for a 4
-This does 1 wound on average so kind of meh...

But if the other guy stops even one of those spells, the odds get much worse. And as with any shooting/magic based approach, the window in which you can kill him is quite small, since he'll probably be in combat turn 2. To be fair, it's not like the odds here are that much worse than the odds for any strategy that doesn't involve lots of war machines, but still. Assuming you'll cast a spell combo is usually assuming more than your opponent will let you get away with.

Yersinia Pestis
13-12-2013, 23:23
What also works: have it commit suicide..... Yesterday mine launched a purple sun, rolled a misfire, rolled a 2 on the scatter, rolled a 6 on the test..... Bye bye DP on turn one :rolleyes:

InstantKarma
14-12-2013, 02:07
You could take a night goblin army just made up of min sized night goblin units each with 3 fanatics, there for every time he wants to get into combat with anything he has to take up to 3 fanatics to the face and even then he only kills 20 goblins costing 10% of his points cost. I would do it just once to make a point.

I think this was my favorite solution. Anything involving Gobos killing a Daemon Prince = gold.

Citadel97501
15-12-2013, 06:34
I used the following tonight and it just ate armored units and with chaos characters being forced to challenge, it can easily break a non-ranked unit. Now it doesn't reliably kill the DP unless it is buffed or the DP is heavily hexed. Personally I would try to have both up, or him down to 2 wounds left.

Griffon Noble
-Star Lance
-Other Tricksters Shard
-Enchanted Shield
-Dragon Armor

Griffon
-Swift Senses

Total Cost: 300 points

Yowzo
16-12-2013, 10:59
I think this was my favorite solution. Anything involving Gobos killing a Daemon Prince = gold.

Maxing out on doom divers pops the nurgle DP quite reliably.

daftpunkevo
16-12-2013, 18:50
Do you guys think that Hellebron with WS 10 and 9A S10 asf reroll for hits and wound take out the DP ?

JDV311
16-12-2013, 19:25
Yes, in the very rare chance that your foot troops could track him down.

Nostronomo
17-12-2013, 09:02
Peg DE lord with black amulet and other trickster.

Symrivven
17-12-2013, 09:05
Yes, in the very rare chance that your foot troops could track him down.
If you like to live dangerously you could put her on a Manticore. :evilgrin:

Yersinia Pestis
18-12-2013, 22:01
I field one and i've said it and i'll say it again, war machines are your best bet.... As soon as it gets into combat, it's teaming up with a chimera and/or an exalted hero on disc..... I've lost no combat yet with this.... So, don't forget, it's got buddies ;)

SteveW
19-12-2013, 03:34
Impact hits are a great way to kill the DP as well. Two tooled up pump wagons 4d6 S5 hits no armor saves, killed him dead and I didn't even roll that well.

Imperator64
26-09-2014, 16:59
I've never brought anything back ti life before. How exciting.
I dont think this thread had any way for lizardmen to take him out. Any ideas?

Josfer
26-09-2014, 20:51
Council of light.

SteveW
26-09-2014, 22:24
I've never brought anything back ti life before. How exciting.

I dont think this thread had any way for lizardmen to take him out. Any ideas?


Poison blowpipes, poison bolt throwers, impact hits, magic, beat him to death with an old blood on a cold one. Lizzies have lots of ways.

N00B
27-09-2014, 10:44
I have seen him taken down by a mob of shooting witchunters before but even if it were reliable it is hardly all comers. InG have some good tools in doom divers. Even the arachnarok isn't too bad (ok you hit on sixs but then these are all poisoned and the venom surge chance is nice.

thesoundofmusica
27-09-2014, 19:06
Poison blowpipes, poison bolt throwers, impact hits, magic, beat him to death with an old blood on a cold one. Lizzies have lots of ways.

Well to be fair some of these are viable some are not. I wouldnt say "lots of ways" back then and nothing has changed.

ROCKY
27-09-2014, 23:58
Its fun to see people afraid of a single model. its hard to kill in combat yes but if you bring enough magic/shooting it will be a lot easier. whose excited to see 4 daemon princes in 2500pts end times rules! personally i prefer 3 with 3 chimaeras and throgg and trolls XD

Josfer
28-09-2014, 15:15
Poison Blowpipes won't really help. You need 6s to poison, then a 1 on the armor save and a 4- on the ward save and that times four given he doesn't heal through soul feeder or get additional wounds through lore of nurgle: 6*6*3/2*4=216 blowpipe shots. Blowpipes have short range and his main goal is to get into combat...and he's flying.
And I doubt an old blood on a cold one will reliably kill him hitting on 6 and facing a 1+ or 2+ AS and 5++ on W4 and probably the charmed shield with regaining and gaining wounds and toughness.

Bolt Throwers or metal magic (at least I don't know who plays a single DP with worse than 2+ AS) are good tools.

SteveW
28-09-2014, 15:52
Old bloods don't hit him on 6's unless he has glittering scales. And that isn't a good build, neither is nurgle magic.

ROCKY
28-09-2014, 15:58
metal is a bad idea because they are all flaming attacks and most good daemon princes have the dragon bane gem (2+ward vs flaming)

Imperator64
28-09-2014, 16:55
I don't see how any of those ways just mentioned would do. Blowpipes are going up against a 1+ armour save, metal magic becomes negated by the dragonbane gem and then a light council???!!!!?? Did the person who suggested this think that skink priests could take light? Cus they cant and doubling up on slaan's for S5 banishment doesn't seem like a good investment in points.
What is the maths on the oldblood? Is it that he'll win or just hold the dp up?

SteveW
28-09-2014, 17:42
The old lol with grew weapon, ancient steg helm, talk of pres, on a cold one beats the do about 50% of the time for half the cost. And it holds him up most of the game otherwise

SteveW
28-09-2014, 17:42
I hate my phones auto correct

ReynakZhen
28-09-2014, 19:02
I just use a dreadlord mounted on the coldone to tie the DP up all game and my army smashed the rest of my opponent's army.

Josfer
28-09-2014, 21:11
Did the person who suggested this think that skink priests could take light? Cus they cant
Yep...my fault, sorry. Mixed it up with heavens.


metal is a bad idea because they are all flaming attacks and most good daemon princes have the dragon bane gem (2+ward vs flaming)
well....I think Lizardmen are kinda screwed then ^^

P.S: Don't drink and post ^^

SteveW
28-09-2014, 21:43
I just use a dreadlord mounted on the coldone to tie the DP up all game and my army smashed the rest of my opponent's army.


How often can that even work? The dreadlord is t3 no matter what you gear him with.

ReynakZhen
28-09-2014, 22:29
How often can that even work? The dreadlord is t3 no matter what you gear him with.

I equip him with glittering scales so at least the DP needs 4's to hit. I usually attempt to cast signature shadow spell on the DP, to drop the WS so the DP needs 5's. But, basically Nurgle DP's are a nightmare for me.

thesoundofmusica
28-09-2014, 23:01
But, basically Nurgle DP's are a nightmare for me.

For everyone mate, for everyone.

ROCKY
29-09-2014, 00:31
nawwww just take a guy with the VHS and it would be fun XD as for lizard men why not try high magic? destroy his gear etc.

Josfer
29-09-2014, 13:23
nawwww just take a guy with the VHS
Depends on your game modes. If you play closed list this might work, in an open list environment it will be really hard to catch a flyer.

ROCKY
29-09-2014, 14:18
not so much about catching him as it is a deterrent. Even if he knows who has it he will opt to stay away and if your army is compact it will be hard to break units in one go and if he chooses to stay away instead of countercharged he will be shot to death by 2 hellblasters a steamtank and 2 cannons. certain armies require certain mechanics to work empire is castling and whittling. Lizardmen USED to be about magic now not so sure. slaan is without question worse than he used to be.

SteveW
30-09-2014, 17:00
I equip him with glittering scales so at least the DP needs 4's to hit. I usually attempt to cast signature shadow spell on the DP, to drop the WS so the DP needs 5's. But, basically Nurgle DP's are a nightmare for me.


You play dark elves? Why not litter him with bolts?

RipFlag
01-10-2014, 22:32
What about skaven and the anti flying banner? That is going to ruin his day, also skaven have lots of shooting to hurt big things like their lightening cannons

Josfer
02-10-2014, 06:47
He is friggen fast on foot anyways, so the anti flying banner isn't that much of a problem.

But...how is this related to the OP?