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Poseidal
04-11-2013, 19:40
I haven't got it myself, but I heard in the new Black Library 'Maugetar' Maugan Ra goes full Grey Knights, killing his allies to make into a gun, then goes all Draigo and one-shots a Keeper of Secrets and then beats up an Avatar, setting it on the Daemons on a Crone world.

Has anyone got this to confirm, is it as funny as it sounds?

Inquisitor Engel
04-11-2013, 19:50
Why would Maugan-Ra beat up an Avatar? :eyebrows:

El_Machinae
04-11-2013, 20:09
Why would Maugan-Ra beat up an Avatar? :eyebrows:

For the same reason Spiderman would fight Captain America? Fan service?

eldaran
04-11-2013, 20:10
Why would Maugan-Ra beat up an Avatar? :eyebrows:

He was bored? Is the Avatar thought so little of that even his own people will beat on him???

If it is true, I'd probably laugh for a few minutes, then despair at the existence of an Eldar mary-sue - added of course to his beating a splinter fleet on his own...

Lord Zarkov
04-11-2013, 20:13
He goes on a crone world (although the description reads more like a fallen craftworld), then, helped by his mates (who all bar 1 die), kills a KoS which is munching on the infinity circuit (so he can steal what remains to build his gun from), then turns his last mate into a Young King so he can temper his blade in Avatar blood. He then sends the avatar off to kill the rest of the Slaanesh daemons while he hunts for the dome of the seers. The seers have all gone crazy from too much Slaanesh stuff around and attack him, forcing him to kill them (which upsets him so much it 'splits his soul in two'). He then takes their spirit stones to decorate his gun.


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dram
04-11-2013, 20:13
Yeah he does its in Munitorum Maugetar. He also kidnaps a Bonesinger to teach him how to make the Maugetar. When he learned enough he cut off the hands tongue and eyes of the Bonesinger, so no one else would know how to create it.

innerwolf
04-11-2013, 20:27
(...) forcing him to kill them (which upsets him so much it 'splits his soul in two'). He then takes their spirit stones to decorate his gun.

Pure douchiness gold! So sigged

Mozzamanx
04-11-2013, 20:31
Slightly confused as to why a Crone World has an Infinity Circuit, and how Avatar-killing is now so entrenched as a rite of passage that even the Eldar have started doing it.

Perhaps Maugan Ra is actually under Khaine's Aspect of 'Team-killing jerkbag'.

Swordsman
04-11-2013, 20:34
Why would Maugan-Ra beat up an Avatar? :eyebrows:

He's already thrashed a bio-titan in single combat. Slap-boxing an Avatar is how he relaxes.

Poseidal
04-11-2013, 20:36
Perhaps Maugan Ra is actually under Khaine's Aspect of 'Team-killing jerkbag'.

I guess that's accurate from the War in Heaven.

Inquisitor Engel
04-11-2013, 22:03
Slightly confused as to why a Crone World has an Infinity Circuit, and how Avatar-killing is now so entrenched as a rite of passage that even the Eldar have started doing it.

Yeah, Crone Worlds having Infinity Circuits doesn't make a lick of sense. (Although according to "Angel Exterminatus," the original Eldar had lots of soul stones on Crone World so...

Anima
04-11-2013, 22:14
It was more of a world shrine a la Exodites rather than an infinity circuit if I recall correctly. He also doesn't kill the Avatar, he just stabs it to temper his blade and then lets it go and fight daemons.

JOBusse
05-11-2013, 13:13
Why would Maugan-Ra beat up an Avatar? :eyebrows:

He read Calgar's story and thought "No. Watch, i'll go slap an avatar and he'll kill me ten ways from Sunday."

It...was not his brightest idea ever.

But it all worked out in the end.

Formerly Wu
05-11-2013, 14:15
And so the eternal cycle of "iffy fluff gets badly paraphrased, warped into ridiculousness, and repeated as fact forevermore" begins again.

=Angel=
05-11-2013, 19:34
Eldar- the Bothans of 40k.
All they do is die to achieve the most minor goals for their race.
A craftworld must be saved!
Lets spend some Eldar lives.
Eldar John Connor must survive!
Eldar blood should sort that out.
I need a new gun!
Round up a few Eldar, we'll have them accompany you into hell.

Hendarion
05-11-2013, 20:07
Unnecessary comment. And as it seams, all your comments about Eldar are similarly fashioned.

InstantKarma
05-11-2013, 20:12
He goes on a crone world (although the description reads more like a fallen craftworld), then, helped by his mates (who all bar 1 die), kills a KoS which is munching on the infinity circuit (so he can steal what remains to build his gun from), then turns his last mate into a Young King so he can temper his blade in Avatar blood. He then sends the avatar off to kill the rest of the Slaanesh daemons while he hunts for the dome of the seers. The seers have all gone crazy from too much Slaanesh stuff around and attack him, forcing him to kill them (which upsets him so much it 'splits his soul in two'). He then takes their spirit stones to decorate his gun.


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All that for a super shot, rending Shrieker Cannon?

Next we'll see Farsight beat an Avatar in Hand-to-Hand and somehow manage to get Brightsword to finish it off with his Fusion blasters...even though Avatars are immune to melta :p

Swordsman
05-11-2013, 20:54
Round up a few Eldar, we'll have them accompany you into hell.

Seems like a lot of work, considering that his gun isn't all that impressive (in-game).

MajorWesJanson
05-11-2013, 21:40
I haven't got it myself, but I heard in the new Black Library 'Maugetar' Maugan Ra goes full Grey Knights, killing his allies to make into a gun, then goes all Draigo and one-shots a Keeper of Secrets and then beats up an Avatar, setting it on the Daemons on a Crone world.

Has anyone got this to confirm, is it as funny as it sounds?

This is how much internet hate is generated- someone takes wild paraphrasing of GW stuff, and it suddenly becomes true. Calgar vs Avatar is an epic example.

MagicHat
05-11-2013, 21:58
Yeah he does its in Munitorum Maugetar. He also kidnaps a Bonesinger to teach him how to make the Maugetar. When he learned enough he cut off the hands tongue and eyes of the Bonesinger, so no one else would know how to create it.

Seems rather excessive to protect a not that awesome gun. Besides, wouldn't the Bonesinger have telepathy, or other Eldar able to communicate with him through telepathy?

=Angel=
06-11-2013, 01:15
Seems like a lot of work, considering that his gun isn't all that impressive (in-game).
It does. It's an impressive weapon in universe- a soul powered machine gun that fires blades using gravity.
As regards firepower though, it's no more impressive than say, an assault cannon- although more man(Eldar?) portable.

The dark Eldar have splinter cannons which always seemed like a great balance between firepower and maneuverability.

And then there's the question of why only one could be built. Don't the Eldar need all they can to survive? The imperium likely have more deathstrike /vortex missiles than he has blades in his one gun.
I might have to read this one.

I always thought Maugan was the cool phoenix lord,- the wolverine to the xmen.
This is making him sound like a jerk.

Horus38
06-11-2013, 02:32
Hmmmmmmmm........ this sounds like some botched fluff to be sure, although these little digital releases seem like a prime breeding ground for all kinds of nonsense with it not being a full release codex/book.

Hendarion
06-11-2013, 04:50
Actually it makes him sound like a jerk somewhat. But it also surely makes him sound ruthless and scary. That's how the incarnation of death, the harvester of souls should behave if we're honest.

Athlan na Dyr
06-11-2013, 08:05
Actually it makes him sound like a jerk somewhat. But it also surely makes him sound ruthless and scary. That's how the incarnation of death, the harvester of souls should behave if we're honest.

well... not really

Lets work through this:
1. Goes to place and kills a KoS munching on Eldar Soulstones: Good, stops the Eldar souls going to Slaanesh.
2. Takes the remaining soulstones/ Infinity Circuit and puts them/ transforms it into on his gun: Also good and again prevents the Eldar souls going to Slaanesh
3. Summons the Avatar by sacrificing his last buddy: Kind of a dick move, although might make more sense in the book (needs to hold off the daemons in order to get more souls from the DoCS/ mate was half dead anyway)
4. Kills the mad seers and takes their soul stones: 'killing them' is kind of ambiguous here. It could mean their souls are still intact in the soulstones or they could be totally destroyed. The former isn't too bad, the later is a massive jerk move.

So, all Maugan Ra does is save a load of Eldar souls from going to Slaanesh and summon an Avatar. Not all that much of a jerk :eyebrows:


If you're referring to the bonesinger thing in the above, then yeah you have a very good point.

=Angel=
06-11-2013, 08:50
As my limited understanding of the Eldar has it, they view using soul stones to power stuff like guns and Wraithguard as necromancy and tomb robbing.
Most of the stones you see on armour etc were previous wearers who got locked on a path or one to catch the bearer's soul when he inevitably meets a bolter round or chainsword or Gauss flayer or lasbeam or plasmaburst or shrapnel or barking toad.

Now Ra having less scruples about this kind of thing makes a little sense in his aspect of wearing skull armour but to the Eldar he must still seem like a jerk.
You could save the souls from slaanesh without enslaving them to your machine gun you know.

Polaria
06-11-2013, 09:22
This is how much internet hate is generated- someone takes wild paraphrasing of GW stuff, and it suddenly becomes true. Calgar vs Avatar is an epic example.

Wait a second, are you saying that Marneus Calgar did NOT kill an Avatar? I thought the codex was quite explicit that he did...

Athlan na Dyr
06-11-2013, 09:39
As my limited understanding of the Eldar has it, they view using soul stones to power stuff like guns and Wraithguard as necromancy and tomb robbing.
Most of the stones you see on armour etc were previous wearers who got locked on a path or one to catch the bearer's soul when he inevitably meets a bolter round or chainsword or Gauss flayer or lasbeam or plasmaburst or shrapnel or barking toad.

Now Ra having less scruples about this kind of thing makes a little sense in his aspect of wearing skull armour but to the Eldar he must still seem like a jerk.
You could save the souls from slaanesh without enslaving them to your machine gun you know.

You are correct in the above.
However, you also have to keep context in mind. There isn't any other safe place to immediately put the soul stones, unless Maugan happened to bring a large bag with him.
Furthermore, where would Maugan have put the stones if he hadn't used them to make a gun? These are stones that have been in the Eye of Terror and exposed to enough Slaanesh mind rape shenanigans to turn the souls of the Farseers insane. To put them into another Infinity Matrix exposes the circuit to self-same madness and could act as a beacon for daemons.
In effect, it would interfere or stop most of the working functions of the Infinity Matrix and cause daemons to manifest. You therefore can't put them in a living craftworld because it will disable many of the craftworld's systems. Nor can you put them into an unused Infinity Matrix as you require someone to defend the stones. Hence the only real solution is to contain the souls in their own separate Infinity Matrix and guard that - which is precisely what Maugan Ra did. It just happens to be in his gun.

eldaran
06-11-2013, 09:46
Wait a second, are you saying that Marneus Calgar did NOT kill an Avatar? I thought the codex was quite explicit that he did...

I think he means more that it was blown way out of proportion; in fairness, he does kill it after a brutal fight that (sadly doesn't) almost kill Calgar. I think it's made worse in the eyes of the Eldar fandom for four main reasons:

1. Older fluff says that the Avatar is roughly equivalent to a greater daemon - from memory, the source likens him to a bloodthirster. No-one should be able to walk away from that the way Calgar ultimately does.

2. It came in the middle of a period where the Avatar was getting smacked around by characters as part of the Worf effect - Fulgrim ripping one's head off in Fulgrim and the Iyanden Avatar having a burst of stupid and charging about a dozen Carnifexes and Tyrants in Codex: Tyranids. Considering how those were the only fluff depictions of the Avatar - it getting it's ass handed to it - people were somewhat understandably nettled; kinda like how annoyed the Imperial Fists fans got about the treatment of their chapter.

3. It was in the middle of a period we're still in where the Eldar are used as the measure of how hardcore a faction is - how hard is this tyranid? It wiped out a 10,000 year-old craftworld by itself. To an extent it's even happened in the current Eldar book, where they can't even be the master manipulators they're supposed to be without screwing up and have the Imperials smack 'em for the impertinence.

4. It was the chapter master of the Chapter people love to hate, in a codex written by Mat Ward, which among other things included the line that 'all chapters [including the Space Wolves] aspired to the perfection of the Ultramarines'.

Yeah, there was no way this wasn't getting blown out of proportion...

InstantKarma
06-11-2013, 15:22
4. It was the chapter master of the Chapter people love to hate, in a codex written by Mat Ward, which among other things included the line that 'all chapters [including the Space Wolves] aspired to the perfection of the Ultramarines'.

Yeah, there was no way this wasn't getting blown out of proportion...

^^ True story.

Denny
06-11-2013, 15:29
I always thought Maugan was the cool phoenix lord,- the wolverine to the xmen.
This is making him sound like a jerk.

. . . Still sounds like Wolverine to me. :)

ryng_sting
06-11-2013, 16:29
the Iyanden Avatar having a burst of stupid and charging about a dozen Carnifexes and Tyrants in Codex: Tyranids.

In fact, the Avatar screams out a challenge to the last remaining Hive Tyrant running the show. The Hive Tyrant synaptically orders a dozen Carnifexes to charge HIS way and give him an answer.

eldaran
06-11-2013, 16:33
In fact, the Avatar screams out a challenge to the last remaining Hive Tyrant running the show. The Hive Tyrant synaptically orders a dozen Carnifexes to charge HIS way and give him an answer.

*Checks Codex* Oh. Well. Ahem. Close enough :D

InstantKarma
06-11-2013, 17:37
In fact, the Avatar screams out a challenge to the last remaining Hive Tyrant running the show. The Hive Tyrant synaptically orders a dozen Carnifexes to charge HIS way and give him an answer.

Well clearly they needed Maugan Ra to kill those Carnifexes...

Flame Boy
06-11-2013, 19:45
That answer was beautiful. He was too busy trying to push his home craftworld out of the Eye or Terror presumably. :p

Grand_Marshal_Kazan
06-11-2013, 19:59
He's already thrashed a bio-titan in single combat. Slap-boxing an Avatar is how he relaxes.

Not just a bio-titan, he defeated an entire tendril of a Hivefleet single handed.

Horus38
06-11-2013, 22:06
Not just a bio-titan, he defeated an entire tendril of a Hivefleet single handed.

Speaking of the internet getting things wrong ^ As has been debated several times before: "triumphing" over the swarm could mean many things and does not necessarily mean he destroyed an entire hive fleet.

Nazguire
06-11-2013, 23:45
If the story of Maugan Ra defeating a splinter fleet by himself is the one I'm thinking of, then no he didn't. He killed a lot of them, fully backed up by his Dark Reaper crew, and split a big Tyranjd beast down the middle by whispering some ancient Eldar words of power that apparently mean "don't move" and when the aggrandize swooped down on him, he just put up his gun, and let the bayonet do the talking. Still a pretty epic story but he didn't finish off the entire splinter fleet by himself.

Swordsman
07-11-2013, 03:35
Speaking of the internet getting things wrong ^ As has been debated several times before: "triumphing" over the swarm could mean many things and does not necessarily mean he destroyed an entire hive fleet.

Well, the biggest offenders to date were the Eldar community when "recalling"the Battle for Orar's Sepulchre, so it's only fitting someone else try on the mantle for a time. :D

As for splitting hairs about 'triumphing' over the swarm, while we can't say for certain that he had to kill each and every Tyranid to be victorious, he would of had to have bested a significant amount to stop an invasion, and he still did it solo. Making the trials of Iyanden seem somewhat pathetic in contrast.


If the story of Maugan Ra defeating a splinter fleet by himself is the one I'm thinking of, then no he didn't. He killed a lot of them, fully backed up by his Dark Reaper crew, and split a big Tyranjd beast down the middle by whispering some ancient Eldar words of power that apparently mean "don't move" and when the aggrandize swooped down on him, he just put up his gun, and let the bayonet do the talking. Still a pretty epic story but he didn't finish off the entire splinter fleet by himself.

It's a different battle you're recalling. Ra has two absurd encounters with Tyranids to date.

Harwammer
07-11-2013, 11:24
Did Draigo really do a Maugan Ra?

Horus38
07-11-2013, 13:31
Well, the biggest offenders to date were the Eldar community when "recalling"the Battle for Orar's Sepulchre, so it's only fitting someone else try on the mantle for a time. :D

As for splitting hairs about 'triumphing' over the swarm, while we can't say for certain that he had to kill each and every Tyranid to be victorious, he would of had to have bested a significant amount to stop an invasion, and he still did it solo. Making the trials of Iyanden seem somewhat pathetic in contrast.

Oh it's definitely poorly and vaguely written to the point that no one is happy with it. Even as a big Eldar fan I was scratching my head with a :wtf: look on my face. But that's the issue: it's so vaguely written that I can't even begin to tell you what was going on here. Was Ra rescuing a cache of soul stones, or de-activating a webway portal? Did he butcher enough synapse leaders to throw the swarm into disarray before making his escape? Did he go full Draigo and just straight up butcher this entire hive fleet!!!? :cheese:

Instead of being a creative reference to stoke our imaginations, the author has instead created a black hole that cannot be readily filled in without more background/motivation context which is just poor writing.

Palvinore
07-11-2013, 13:34
Am I the only one that has noticed this reference?:


Upon the world of Stormvald, the Phoenix Lord Maugan Ra single-handedly scattered a Tyranid swarm by systematically destroying every one of its synapse leader-beasts.

p. 26, 6th edition 40K Apocalypse rulebook

eldaran
07-11-2013, 13:52
Am I the only one that has noticed this reference?:

We noticed it; I suppose it's vaguely possible if you imagine him going super-ninja, but we're talking stretching plausability so far you could read a book under it... it's in the 'Nid codex, as well, thankfully with no more explanation, because I'd bet that any attempts at justification would cause brains to break :)

El_Machinae
07-11-2013, 14:10
Do the other factions know about Synapse beasts?

Gwyidion
07-11-2013, 14:35
One thing to keep in mind about this story - The Crone worlds are where Eldar soul-stones come from.

Crone worlds which are particularly close to the EoT, or otherwise daemonically infested, sometimes have soul stones on them which are not empty.

These stones are also used to power the wraithblades axes and swords, and are inherently malevolent and make wraithblades quite scary to normal eldar.

Saunders
07-11-2013, 15:19
This... is actually pretty awesome.


Do the other factions know about Synapse beasts?

Yes. Most forces with experience fighting the tyranids have developed strategies involving as much. Iyanden, for example, has gotten pretty good as combatting the 'nids in space and on the ground over the course of the three wars they've fought against them.

Horus38
07-11-2013, 16:28
Am I the only one that has noticed this reference?:

And shame on me, I actually own the new Apoc book and didn't pick up on this. It is nice to see that snippet actually expanded on, although I'm sure the Nids aren't too keen on it :shifty:

The Emperor
07-11-2013, 17:02
This is how much internet hate is generated- someone takes wild paraphrasing of GW stuff, and it suddenly becomes true. Calgar vs Avatar is an epic example.

Yep. It's funny how people ignore the fact that the Avatar had already been set upon by Terminators using power fists and thunder hammers (I.E. At least two Terminator Squads, a Terminator Squad and a Terminator Assault Squad) and chewed through them, and had also been blasted by Devastator Squads before he got into combat with Calgar. He didn't go into that combat fresh, and he certainly didn't go out with a whimper, considering all the damage he waded through.

Solonor
07-11-2013, 17:27
Yep. It's funny how people ignore the fact that the Avatar had already been set upon by Terminators using power fists and thunder hammers (I.E. At least two Terminator Squads, a Terminator Squad and a Terminator Assault Squad) and chewed through them, and had also been blasted by Devastator Squads before he got into combat with Calgar. He didn't go into that combat fresh, and he certainly didn't go out with a whimper, considering all the damage he waded through.

I would imagine Calgar would also be kicking eldar ass and ducking deflecting shuriken fire etc etc, or was he in line waiting for his turn to fight the Avatar?

The Emperor
07-11-2013, 17:32
I would imagine Calgar would also be kicking eldar ass and ducking deflecting shuriken fire etc etc, or was he in line waiting for his turn to fight the Avatar?

Who knows, but he certainly wasn't described at any point as having taken multiple power fist, thunder hammer, and shots from heavy weapons of every kind to the face like the Avatar was. It's not unreasonable to think that the guy who was hit multiple times with power fists, thunder hammers, lascannons, krak missiles, heavy bolters, etc. would be a bit worse for wear against his opponent, even if that opponent might've had to dodge some shuriken fire beforehand, which is a piddling threat by comparison.

Swordsman
07-11-2013, 22:35
I would imagine Calgar would also be kicking eldar ass and ducking deflecting shuriken fire etc etc, or was he in line waiting for his turn to fight the Avatar?

Unless the story receives a rewrite, in which Marneus is striding through a squad of axe-toting wraithguard, all whilst several fire-prisms open up on him, truly intent on his Avatar prey, I really can't see this becoming a point worth arguing. ;)

Poseidal
08-11-2013, 08:04
Who knows, but he certainly wasn't described at any point as having taken multiple power fist, thunder hammer, and shots from heavy weapons of every kind to the face like the Avatar was. It's not unreasonable to think that the guy who was hit multiple times with power fists, thunder hammers, lascannons, krak missiles, heavy bolters, etc. would be a bit worse for wear against his opponent, even if that opponent might've had to dodge some shuriken fire beforehand, which is a piddling threat by comparison.

It makes the other Ultramarines look worse as the Avatar was written to by totally immune to power fists, thunder hammers, lascannons and other heavy weapons until Calgar's magic hands saved the day.

No one actually fired on Calgar, instead he just turned up.

That piece was really badly written no matter what the sides were; replace the Avatar with a big stompy robot, Calgar with any other named character, do some role reversals and you get something equally awful.

Imagine it was Dark Eldar against Necrons, and then describes the battle with Wyches absorbing blows from Wraiths and Lychguard, Razorwings ramming Nightscythes and Monoliths, destroying them with no damage taken, the Necrons try and use their tricks but are outmanoeuvred by some Scourges. Then the Overlord marches in, and the Dark Eldar fire a load of Dark Lances and Splinter Cannon spam at him but it bounces off, until Asdrubael Vect marches in, takes a blow from the Overlord which bounces off his armour then smashes the chest of the Overlord with his Sceptre. After this happens, the Necrons all run away in fear.

Solonor
08-11-2013, 09:35
Who knows, but he certainly wasn't described at any point as having taken multiple power fist, thunder hammer, and shots from heavy weapons of every kind to the face like the Avatar was. It's not unreasonable to think that the guy who was hit multiple times with power fists, thunder hammers, lascannons, krak missiles, heavy bolters, etc. would be a bit worse for wear against his opponent, even if that opponent might've had to dodge some shuriken fire beforehand, which is a piddling threat by comparison.

Well if the narrative was made to reflect the damage that the Avatar had already sustained, then that would be more sensible, but it wasn't (if i remember correctly), i guess you all think in gaming terms, that the Avatar lost some wound counters and when it reach Calgar he had just one wound left (and that's what happens when youir rolling the dice). The correct way to represent in fluff mode would be to say that the Avatar having taken multiple power fist, thunder hammer, and shots from heavy weapons of every kind to the face so when it reached Calgar it would be limping, with one less leg, arm, whatever, severly wounded, and even so Calgar would have a though time defeating him.

But back to the point i'm in the Camp that Heroes (be it marine, Eldar, Chaos, Crons, Orks etc.) should be capable of doing heroic acts, but with sense, so Maugan Ra being capable of going alone against a splinter tyranid fleet and managing to go about killing all synapse creatures on its own sounds unrealistic and absurd.

MvS
08-11-2013, 11:04
But then Maugan Ra is describe as taking out a Tyranid *swarm*, not a Tyranid Splinter Fleet.

A swarm of Tyranids can be anything from a few dozen to a few million. Our own senses of scale fill in the blanks as to how we're going to interpret the reference.

EDIT

I personally don't have any problem with imagining Maugan Ra fighting a one-Eldar guerilla war against a few hundred (or couple of thousand) Tyranids, picking off each leader / synapse creature from a distance, one or two at a time, before changing position to snipe at another and another over the course of days or weeks.

The rest of the swarm would then just disintegrate into roaming beasts with no coherent sense of purpose - dangerous but not, well, 'Great Devourer' anymore.

Rogue Star
08-11-2013, 11:21
I personally don't have any problem with imagining Maugan Ra fighting a one-Eldar guerilla war against a few hundred (or couple of thousand) Tyranids, picking off each leader / synapse creature from a distance, one or two at a time, before changing position to snipe at another and another over the course of days or weeks.

If you factor in the Webway network the Phoenix Lords' are suppose to have encyclopaedic knowledge to wander and it's exits and access points, it's even more plausible.

I think the Avatar upsets a lot of readers because the background for it, from 2nd edition, made it far more powerful than a Greater Daemon of Khorne, and far and above a Space marine Chapter Master. No the rules never matched that, but likewise Draigo certainly can't take on a daemon army by himself, Maugan Ra certainly doesn't possess some kind of ultimate super-weapon, Space Marines can be gunned down by Grots on the tabletop, etc.

But the 2nd Eldar Codex background, painted Phoenix Lords' around the same level of Space Marine Primarchs (which have recently rose in power levels with the HH novels), and the Avatar again above them.

MvS
08-11-2013, 11:35
Indeed so!

In future incarnations of the game I would love to see the Phoenix Lords made much more powerful, like greater daemons now, and have things like Greater Daemons, the most powerful Daemon Princes and Avatars of Khaine occupy special HQ slots similar to super heavy war-machines or bio-titans.

That's just my preference though.

GraemeLyon
08-11-2013, 12:40
I'm just going to drop a quotation or two from the Maugetar eBook in here:

'There are many tales about the construction of the Maugetar... The most common tells that...' And later: 'None can say whether these tales are true, save for Maugan Ra himself.'

This is all just a story that is told, a dance that the Harlequins do that furthers the dark and sinister legend of the Phoenix Lord. It's not intended to be taken literally.

Saunders
08-11-2013, 16:56
Thank you, GraemeLyon. I posted that yesterday but the forum ate what I wrote, and it's really the most important bit. The only thing I wanted to add is the subsequent commentary that Maugan Ra is sometimes seen observing the Harlequins' tale and lending his approval with a nod.

Maugan Ra has cultivated an image of being the most *sinister* of Phoenix Lords. Without tales like these that he no doubt encourages, we're stuck with stories of IMO the most noble and empathetic of Phoenix Lords. He's been the most active of his kind in recent centuries, and we have multiple stories of him single-handedly fending off tyranid monstrosities, daemon hordes, and other threats to the Eldar. Most recently, he leads Craftworld Ulthwe in to the Eye of Terror to rescue his own forlorn craftworld from a slow death at the hands of Chaos.

Tales such as the crafting of the Maugatar are necessary to remind us that he dresses up with bones and is called the Reaper of Souls. I'm sure there would be some other tale out that that's as suitably epic, telling the myth of the forging of Asurmen's diresword and his brother's noble sacrifice fighting the Great Enemy.

GraemeLyon
08-11-2013, 17:13
Thank you, GraemeLyon. I posted that yesterday but the forum ate what I wrote, and it's really the most important bit. The only thing I wanted to add is the subsequent commentary that Maugan Ra is sometimes seen observing the Harlequins' tale and lending his approval with a nod.

Maugan Ra has cultivated an image of being the most *sinister* of Phoenix Lords. Without tales like these that he no doubt encourages, we're stuck with stories of IMO the most noble and empathetic of Phoenix Lords. He's been the most active of his kind in recent centuries, and we have multiple stories of him single-handedly fending off tyranid monstrosities, daemon hordes, and other threats to the Eldar. Most recently, he leads Craftworld Ulthwe in to the Eye of Terror to rescue his own forlorn craftworld from a slow death at the hands of Chaos.

Tales such as the crafting of the Maugatar are necessary to remind us that he dresses up with bones and is called the Reaper of Souls. I'm sure there would be some other tale out that that's as suitably epic, telling the myth of the forging of Asurmen's diresword and his brother's noble sacrifice fighting the Great Enemy.

That's pretty much what I was going for with it. (I did mention that I wrote it, right?) I'd like to write a longer piece about Maugan Ra himself in future, and I have some ideas for short stories, or perhaps a novella, as well that will, shall we say, showcase his more sinister aspects. In my head, Maugan Ra is absolutely not a warm and cuddly chap.

Lord Damocles
08-11-2013, 18:04
Imagine it was Dark Eldar against Necrons, and then describes the battle with Wyches absorbing blows from Wraiths and Lychguard, Razorwings ramming Nightscythes and Monoliths, destroying them with no damage taken, the Necrons try and use their tricks but are outmanoeuvred by some Scourges. Then the Overlord marches in, and the Dark Eldar fire a load of Dark Lances and Splinter Cannon spam at him but it bounces off, until Asdrubael Vect marches in, takes a blow from the Overlord which bounces off his armour then smashes the chest of the Overlord with his Sceptre. After this happens, the Necrons all run away in fear.
After the Fall of Damnos Apocalypse Warzone book, that scenario honestly wouldn't surprise me...

Sojourner
08-11-2013, 18:08
Yeah he does its in Munitorum Maugetar. He also kidnaps a Bonesinger to teach him how to make the Maugetar. When he learned enough he cut off the hands tongue and eyes of the Bonesinger, so no one else would know how to create it.

Yeah, because it's not like they have any kind of power that they'd be able to use to communicate non-verbally.

Fear Ghoul
08-11-2013, 19:45
I think the Avatar upsets a lot of readers because the background for it, from 2nd edition, made it far more powerful than a Greater Daemon of Khorne, and far and above a Space marine Chapter Master. No the rules never matched that, but likewise Draigo certainly can't take on a daemon army by himself, Maugan Ra certainly doesn't possess some kind of ultimate super-weapon, Space Marines can be gunned down by Grots on the tabletop, etc.

But the 2nd Eldar Codex background, painted Phoenix Lords' around the same level of Space Marine Primarchs (which have recently rose in power levels with the HH novels), and the Avatar again above them.

I'm looking at my copy of the 2nd edition Eldar codex and I don't see what you're saying at all. The background says that the Avatar is "rivalled only by the incalculable energies of the mightiest of daemons", amongst which surely Bloodthirsters would be counted.

Similarly the background on the Pheonix Lords just describes them as "the most powerful warriors of all the Eldar", but nowhere does it describe them as being on the level of Primarchs.

Saunders
08-11-2013, 22:29
That's pretty much what I was going for with it. (I did mention that I wrote it, right?) I'd like to write a longer piece about Maugan Ra himself in future, and I have some ideas for short stories, or perhaps a novella, as well that will, shall we say, showcase his more sinister aspects. In my head, Maugan Ra is absolutely not a warm and cuddly chap.

Ah, you may have mentioned earlier in the thread that you wrote it but I didn't catch that. Kudos! I totally enjoyed what you were going for with the little story.

Horus38
09-11-2013, 02:26
That's pretty much what I was going for with it. (I did mention that I wrote it, right?) I'd like to write a longer piece about Maugan Ra himself in future, and I have some ideas for short stories, or perhaps a novella, as well that will, shall we say, showcase his more sinister aspects. In my head, Maugan Ra is absolutely not a warm and cuddly chap.

Hey-o! Always nice to see the creators mingling with the masses and many thanks for the additional insights :) A longer story/novella/book would be a most welcome addition!

Hendarion
09-11-2013, 05:23
That's pretty much what I was going for with it. (I did mention that I wrote it, right?)Wait, just to get this straight... You wrote the ebook "Monitorum - The Maugetar" (ISBN 9781782531371)?
If so, always great to hear some words from authors.

Palvinore
09-11-2013, 06:10
Maugan Ra may not be warm and cuddly but the story still sounds like he goes out of his way to be a jerk.

Maugan Ra still goes to teach his ways to disciples, and he is sentimental enough to not give up on Altansar after thousands of years and ends up saving it from the Eye of Terror. He also showed up to aid Iyanden when Kraken attacked. He isn't a sociopathic lone killer if he spreads teachings, has a fondness for his home, and aids other Eldar. In the old WD article, he also seemed to be the only one of the Phoenix Lords visionary enough to focus on dealing massed death from a distance. Other Phoenix Lords still seem to focus on elaborate close combat weapons or close range weapons that while powerful are not suited to deal with the massive numerical inferiority the Eldar have.

The WD article hinted that Maugan Ra is a harbinger of disaster and that it is questioned sometimes who he actually reaps. I rather see Maugan Ra's sinister reputation a result of that rather than him being a jerk. He aids the Eldar but somehow whether through fate or whether through Maugan Ra only aiding in the most desperate of situations, the Eldar still end up with apparent pyrrhic victories.

What I am more interested in are the minor supernatural abilities of the Phoenix Lords like Maugan Ra's ability to become immovable, Karandras's ability to lead disciples from shadow to shadow without passing through the intervening space, or Jain Zarr twirling her blade to block bolter shots. Some of these abilities are detailed in novels or in Apocalypse formations but help show the Phoenix Lords like mythical wandering Kung Fu masters.

Shamana
09-11-2013, 12:38
Every aspect warrior is a zealot who brainwashes him- or herself to be like an aspect of the God that killed the greatest Eldar hero, tormented the mother-goddess of their race and crippled the god who gave them the gifts of technology, so yeah, "absolutely not a warm and cuddly chap" goes without saying. An exarch is fanatical and dedicated enough that they shed all they were to become as close to that aspect as possible - including perhaps part of the personality. Maugan Ra is that cubed - so crippling or killing other Eldar or anyone else does not strike me as uncharacteristic.

It is the bit about Khaine that I find strange: the idea that the founder and first exarch of the Dark Reapers would do something like that to an Avatar of Khaine strikes me as somehow extremely disrespectful to the point of sacrilege.

The Illuminated
09-11-2013, 18:12
It is the bit about Khaine that I find strange: the idea that the founder and first exarch of the Dark Reapers would do something like that to an Avatar of Khaine strikes me as somehow extremely disrespectful to the point of sacrilege.

It doesn't stand out as all that strange, to me.

Maugan represents the Necrontyr-tainted 'reaper' aspect of Khaine, after all. This alone might make him revere Khaine less than the other aspect figure-heads; or even actively dislike him.

Hendarion
09-11-2013, 19:07
The Necrontyr-tainted aspect of Khaine? That's the first time I hear that.

insectum7
09-11-2013, 19:18
This is just a guess, but I would presume it has to do with the old Necron descriptions of the Nightbringer, and how the Nightbringer himself is the reason why all species (save Orks) fear death. In this vein, Maugan Ra is, in a way, an Eldar representation of the primordial terror that the Nightbringer cast in its wake.

The Nightbringer was also the first Ctan to go cannibal.

Hendarion
09-11-2013, 20:01
Forget what I wrote before. Actually it makes sense of course.

I still don't see though how a devotee to Khaine who tries to resemble one aspect of him should dislike him. That just doesn't make sense.

The Illuminated
09-11-2013, 21:02
Forget what I wrote before. Actually it makes sense of course.

I still don't see though how a devotee to Khaine who tries to resemble one aspect of him should dislike him. That just doesn't make sense.

Wasn't the 'reaper' aspect of Khaine only birthed after Khaine was infected by the shattered necrodermis of Ra?

He's essentially the ultimate aspect representation of a rival xeno species deity.

Shamana
09-11-2013, 22:52
It doesn't stand out as all that strange, to me.

Maugan represents the Necrontyr-tainted 'reaper' aspect of Khaine, after all. This alone might make him revere Khaine less than the other aspect figure-heads; or even actively dislike him.

And yet it is still an aspect of Khaine. One of the more nihilistic ones, sure, and I don't have that much of a problem with Maugan Ra fighting another phoenix lord or even an avatar of Khaine with a good reason, but here it sounds like he planned to do it to make a weapon, and that I find strange. He might fight him, or even hate him, but that sounds... disrespectful. The phoenix lords are the greatest disciples and prophets of Khaine and the leaders of the aspect cults. The whole religious aspect of it tends to not be played up enough imo.

Meh, not a big thing, just a bit of a WTF moment for me.

Horus38
10-11-2013, 00:44
Wasn't the 'reaper' aspect of Khaine only birthed after Khaine was infected by the shattered necrodermis of Ra?

He's essentially the ultimate aspect representation of a rival xeno species deity.

No. The reaper represents destruction from afar. The effect of the Nightbringer on khaine is a nice tie in, but it is not the "source" of the reaper aspect.

Kebert Xela
13-11-2013, 15:37
Seems like everyone is dropping avatars these days between Fulgrim, Lorgar, Calgar, and Ra soon there will be none left.......

Also I would love to see Ra duke it out with Mortarion and the nightbringer on who has the cooler scythe

The Illuminated
13-11-2013, 16:33
No. The reaper represents destruction from afar. The effect of the Nightbringer on khaine is a nice tie in, but it is not the "source" of the reaper aspect.

Hrm- I could have sworn that his 'aspect' was that of the tainted reaper-element, introduced via the Ra 'infection'.

I mean, let's look at the quirks regarding them.



They actively worship death. Not just the war that brings it about
Their souls are somehow tainted by more than the simple rage that other aspects feel - and have to be kept separate from other souls (Blood Raven Omnibus)
They favor heavy, 'death-mask' armor
Their preferred means of warfare is laying waste to enemies from afar, and show little in the way of bloodlust/fury
The 'reaper' is a mental manifestation of Ra to mortal species, and it's their 'avatar' of war


They're much more akin to Necrons, than Eldar.

I suppose I just spun my fan-view into fact in my head.

Shamana
14-11-2013, 09:35
@ The Illuminated - where do you see the "worship death" part? All aspects strive to emulate one of Khaine's aspects, and as they are led by the Exarchs (who among other things are Khaine's priests) they can be considered to worship him - but I have not noticed anything about the Reapers worshipping death.

Edit - don't get me wrong, I think there is definitely a support for the idea that the Reaper aspect came to be as a result of Khaine battling the Nightbringer, I was just curious where your statement came from.

The Illuminated
14-11-2013, 22:20
@ The Illuminated - where do you see the "worship death" part? All aspects strive to emulate one of Khaine's aspects, and as they are led by the Exarchs (who among other things are Khaine's priests) they can be considered to worship him - but I have not noticed anything about the Reapers worshipping death.

"War is my master; Death my mistress." - Maugan Ra

In the Blood Raven omnibus, the reaper Exarch meditates and 'worships' death itself; speaking of it as if it's a female entity/deity. This same view seems to be upheld by Ra himself, hence the quote above. Now, I don't think that it's an actual deity they're speaking of- but they speak of death in reverent tones, and the taking of life seems to be more of the focus than the actual battle. Reapers seem to have a very, well, GRIMDARK view of war, which seems muted and much more sinister than the other aspects. The 'reaping' seems to be a heavier focus than martial pride, bloodlust, or honor, found in other aspect schools.

Hendarion
15-11-2013, 04:33
Well, I won't say that for example Fire Dragons have "martial pride or honor". They are strongly focused on destruction as well.

Gropius
15-11-2013, 08:59
Doesn't the Avatar have magma for blood? Covering your gun with Lava does ot seem to be a good idea.

Hendarion
15-11-2013, 09:17
Magma? It is a boiling mass of metal. Magma wouldn't make sense at all. I'd say you get that impression from various "magma-style" painted miniatures.

Horus38
15-11-2013, 13:15
In the Blood Raven omnibus...

Well there's your first problem, C.S. Goto can't tell his @ss from his elbow when it comes to fluff, eldar in particular.

The Path novels paint the reapers as being suffused or surrounded by an aura of death/despair. A morose and somber lot to be sure, so they definitely stand apart from the other aspects and eldar society in general.

Retrospectus
15-11-2013, 22:30
I don't see the problem with Maugan stabbing an Avatar to get it's "blood" on his blade. the Avatar probably didn't even feel it really and then it went off to kill some deamons. I haven't read the book so this is just what I've picked up from the thread but if true then stabbing the Avatar (assuming he didn't do major damage) would seem perfectly acceptable, if extremely disrespectful to said Avatar.