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danny-d-b
05-11-2013, 11:20
So i'm facing Dwarfs next week with my empire and was thinking is magic actually going to be that effective vs them? Yes pit of shades would be nice to kill large amounts of dwarfs, or even spamming metal spells with gelt maybe but considering how many dispel dice dwarfs have would it just be better to get more men and use my die to try and get some prayers off?

Francis
05-11-2013, 14:29
If you fight dwarves, and especially if they use anvil, you will have to go extreme magic or none at all. Even if you do go very heavy in the magic department it probably won't be half as effective as you wish it to be. Best is probably to ignore magic all together.

Roshan
05-11-2013, 15:49
what points limit?

In 2k My dwarf list typically has an extra 3 dice and 3 scrolls
In 3k I get 5 extra dice and 3 scrolls

In lower points i would say dwarfs wont be too heavy, but the higher the limit the more crazy dwarves can be.

danny-d-b
05-11-2013, 16:07
2.5k at the moment just bringing 3 warrior priests (well 2 and huss) purely to provide hatred

mostlyharmless
05-11-2013, 17:16
Yeah, you're better off just going with warrior priests and hoping to get the odd buff through and counting on the hatred to help you in combat.

RasputinII
06-11-2013, 02:54
If you're proactive with your anti-runesmith hunters you can make late game magic work out, but its not easy.

warplock
06-11-2013, 06:47
This is a major issue which I am sure they will fix with the new dwarf book. It's ridiculous that dwarfs can go so insanely anti-magic that it's easier to just take no magic, and that way you have wasted no points whereas he has wasted all his anti-magic points!

Luigi
06-11-2013, 17:00
This is a major issue which I am sure they will fix with the new dwarf book. It's ridiculous that dwarfs can go so insanely anti-magic that it's easier to just take no magic, and that way you have wasted no points whereas he has wasted all his anti-magic points!
this is usually why, with my dwarfs i don't field almost any kind of anti-magic what so ever ;)

Fighting Newfoundlander
07-11-2013, 00:46
No magic is definitely the best bet versus Dwarves. It's the only time you can do that and not have to worry. The Dwarf doesn't have that luxury. I too go fairly low anti-magic with dwarves to avoid this all too common strategy. At 2400 it's usually a BSB and a runesmith with 2 dispel runes for a general and call it a day. Characters are a waste of points imho.

grumbaki
07-11-2013, 01:01
As a dwarf player this always drives me crazy:

"Dwarven anti-magic is overpowered! I can't do anything."

"Funny that, me either."

Your best bet is 0 magic. You spend nothing and he wastes a few hundred points defending against nothing. It turns into a points advantage for you.

mypantsarefree3
07-11-2013, 01:44
No magic, spend points on can-openers.


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NurglesRot
07-11-2013, 02:34
Without list tailoiring, you can't really avoid their anti-magic. Go for one or two spells are turn and sometimes going for the Miscast is the only way to get it - depending on the situation and the spell in question it can be well worth it.

rocdocta
07-11-2013, 03:40
My 3 dice channelling on a 5+ slann and 2 basties got zero spells off last night vs dwarves. Not one. I was throwing 5 or 6 dice and was outnumbered by dispel dice every time.

NurglesRot
07-11-2013, 04:31
You got unlucky then. Using that many dice you either should have got IF for some of the spells throughout the game. Trying to one dice or two dice spells against dwarves will not work and you'll end up bleeding power dice whilst not being able to cast anything.

Don't worry though, I expect that dwarves will lose quite a bit of their runes and magic items when their new army book comes out - that much is certain.

Montegue
13-11-2013, 01:52
The big secret we dwarf players harbor is that your magic phase is the single most dangerous phase you have against us, even with our anti magic.

Fighting Newfoundlander
14-11-2013, 01:49
Don't worry though, I expect that dwarves will lose quite a bit of their runes and magic items when their new army book comes out - that much is certain.

I'm guessing that we lose very little except perhaps multiples of the same rune. WoC, HE, DE - I haven't seen GW do in an army in a while. And with no magic phase, cancelling your opponents is not that great really. Spending several hundred points (most people complaining about dwarf anti-magic seem to assume a massive expenditure on it) and getting nothing offensive in return is a poor option it seems to me.

RecklessAbandon
14-11-2013, 10:15
Just throw six dice at the spell you want each turn and hope for IF.

Luckily you don't really need magic against Dwarves because they kind of suck at close combat in 8th with their low I across the board and the fact most of their units have great weapons allowing you to strike first most of the time.

Just combo charge their flanks and break them then continue into the war machine battery and just avoid/redirect the center of his battle line and win on points. ASF weapons, ignore armour weapons, other trickster's shard are all effective here.

You can always just bring bunch of war machines instead because Dwarfs are too slow to get to them. Focus war machine fire on their war machines with yours.

Roshan
14-11-2013, 11:03
Just throw six dice at the spell you want each turn and hope for IF.

Luckily you don't really need magic against Dwarves because they kind of suck at close combat in 8th with their low I across the board and the fact most of their units have great weapons allowing you to strike first most of the time.



Yes because a WS4 S5 T4 model with heavy armour for 10 points sucks so badly it hurts....

Roshan
14-11-2013, 11:06
You can always just bring bunch of war machines instead because Dwarfs are too slow to get to them. Focus war machine fire on their war machines with yours.

Only O&G can bring enough , even then Dwarfs have the best artillery in the game currently, I dont worry about anyone elses, when mine reroll missfires on shots and bounces with cannons, re-roll scatters and can be str 5 small blasts... Auto hitting artillery dice shots.......Anything else is a poor imitation

Vipoid
14-11-2013, 11:26
As a dwarf player this always drives me crazy:

"Dwarven anti-magic is overpowered! I can't do anything."

"Funny that, me either."

But it doesn't exactly make for a fun game, does it?

'My dwarves don't have magic, so it's fine that we should stop anyone else doing magic too.' :eyebrows:



Your best bet is 0 magic. You spend nothing and he wastes a few hundred points defending against nothing. It turns into a points advantage for you.

But surely list-tailoring works both ways?

The dwarf player could just as easily skip magic defence, and the other player could be abandoning magic in an attempt to bypass the immense magic defence the dwarf player doesn't actually have. If you see what I mean.

Hwel Thighbiter
14-11-2013, 12:47
Don't forget that you also face Vampire counts....

RecklessAbandon
14-11-2013, 16:36
Yes because a WS4 S5 T4 model with heavy armour for 10 points sucks so badly it hurts....

Maybe I'm just spoiled being able to field a WS4 S5 T4 model with 3 attacks and a ward save for 11 points who also gets to strike before the dwarf. But I see your point


Only O&G can bring enough , even then Dwarfs have the best artillery in the game currently, I dont worry about anyone elses, when mine reroll missfires on shots and bounces with cannons, re-roll scatters and can be str 5 small blasts... Auto hitting artillery dice shots.......Anything else is a poor imitation

But how long will that last? I imagine most of those runes becoming either master runes or ceasing to exist in the fast approaching new book

Vipoid
14-11-2013, 16:50
Maybe I'm just spoiled being able to field a WS4 S5 T4 model with 3 attacks and a ward save for 11 points who also gets to strike before the dwarf.

Which model is that? :confused:

Gradolt
14-11-2013, 19:35
It's savage and it's orcish...

Zinch
14-11-2013, 19:43
Maybe I'm just spoiled being able to field a WS4 S5 T4 model with 3 attacks and a ward save for 11 points who also gets to strike before the dwarf. But I see your point

Yeah, but that is only one unit in the army and only in the first turn of combat. Also, they are frenzied so are easy to divert...

I'm not saying they are bad, but the dwarf warriors are one of the best core units in the game also (edit: for their purpose... obviously M3 hurts)

Commodus Leitdorf
14-11-2013, 20:46
This is a major issue which I am sure they will fix with the new dwarf book. It's ridiculous that dwarfs can go so insanely anti-magic that it's easier to just take no magic, and that way you have wasted no points whereas he has wasted all his anti-magic points!

Dwarfs never waste points going anti-magic. It just comes naturally...I mean I can't think of a reason NOT to field an Anvil of Doom and you need a Runelord to use it. That combination right there, I believe, gives you +3 Dispel dice. Even if you don't use it, well, you still get the anvil and a Lord that's VERY hard for warmachine hunters to get rid of.

Honestly, if your going Empire your better off just sticking to as many bound spells as you can get and hope for the best.

RecklessAbandon
14-11-2013, 21:31
Fair enough Zinch. I've personally never had trouble in combat with dwarfs but that might just be because the Dwarf players I've played focus on war machine batteries

grumbaki
14-11-2013, 21:38
Dwarfs never waste on anti-magic? How about taking two runesmiths, each with a rune of spell breaking? Assuming plain shields, that is 244pts for anti-magic...and 4 ws5 str4 attacks.

Any other army with 2 lvl 2s would be extatic to find no enemy wizards. Dwarfs? They start off down about 250pts. And that's not cool.

As for the anvil...I don't always take it. Because it has blown up on me, losing about 500pts in one go. It's also vulnerable to some spells. Sometimes it's just more useful to get another horde down, right?

Montegue
15-11-2013, 00:15
With the exception of low str magic missile spells, literally every spell in the game can and will be the difference between victory and defeat for a dwarf army, and it's not hard at all (and usually worth the cost) to roll double 6s on six dice. One pit of shades, one dwellers, one mind razor, one flash to stone, one dreaded thirteenth, one leadership debuff, one toughness or strength debuff, war priest buffs - all of these things can and will shift combat just enough for two rounds to spell the end of even our strongest units.

In short (heheh), winging about your magic phase falls on my increasingly deaf ears. We have no disc lord, no peg lord, no hell pit, no warlocks, no savages, no monstrous infantry, nothing that can stomp, no cav or monstrous cav, no level six unit destroying magic spells...the list of things everyone has access to that we don't goes on and on. We have war machines and infantry, and the ability to make a magic phase very challenging.

There's one exception - tomb kings. Their reliance on magic means tossing six dice just to move. But that's not the fault of the dwarf army.