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wyvirn
09-11-2013, 07:02
With the first pictures of the new book surfacing, let's release some pressure from the N&R thread and get some last minute wish listing in!

Genestealers need grenades, pure and simple. There's the argument that not every CC specialist needs them, but glass cannons such as Stealers certainly do. Speaking of which,
I would like to see Genestealers with either a 4+ save or concealment, the latter was included in the Genestealer cult list. And 3 attacks because 2 just doesn't cut it any more.
Tyranid Warlord Traits should have a minor, but table wide, effect. I don't like how the faceless, innumerable hive force has a central commander. I would much rather him be a strong Hive Mind Node.
All synapse creatures have eternal warrior, warriors drop down to 2 wounds a pop.
Carnifex gaining a 2+ 5++, similar to how terminators got the same treatment going from 2nd to 3rd. It would also justify them a little against a Tervigon, who would have similar stats to today's version, but see a slight price increase.
Spore mines get different versions again, can touch other spore mines without blowing up.
Venomthroes become independent characters, 1-3 per slot and deployed separately.
Harpy gets some form of anti-air gun, gets vector dancer for a steep price.

Athlan na Dyr
09-11-2013, 07:40
With the first pictures of the new book surfacing, let's release some pressure from the N&R thread and get some last minute wish listing in!

Genestealers need grenades, pure and simple. There's the argument that not every CC specialist needs them, but glass cannons such as Stealers certainly do. Speaking of which,
Flesh Hooks? Assuming the random shooting attack for these gets removed, that'd work
I would like to see Genestealers with either a 4+ save or concealment, the latter was included in the Genestealer cult list. And 3 attacks because 2 just doesn't cut it any more.
I think the 2 should be an 'either or'. Whilst these were possible a Codex ago, both would be horrendously expensive. That said, that is with a caveat*
Tyranid Warlord Traits should have a minor, but table wide, effect. I don't like how the faceless, innumerable hive force has a central commander. I would much rather him be a strong Hive Mind Node.
Very good!
All synapse creatures have eternal warrior, warriors drop down to 2 wounds a pop.
Eternal Warrior should be a very rare rule. There are other ways of increasing their resilience without a straight mechanical immunity
Carnifex gaining a 2+ 5++, similar to how terminators got the same treatment going from 2nd to 3rd. It would also justify them a little against a Tervigon, who would have similar stats to today's version, but see a slight price increase.
Alternatively, why not just buff the number of wounds? More universally useful than an invulnerable and more in line with other large tyranid beasties
Spore mines get different versions again, can touch other spore mines without blowing up.
Yep
Venomthroes become independent characters, 1-3 per slot and deployed separately.
Why just stop at the venomthropes? More later**
Harpy gets some form of anti-air gun, gets vector dancer for a steep price.
Either that or a second flyer, specifically designed as a counter to flyers, is introduced

Other than that,

OPTIONS (this is the *)
Since time immemorial (or at least, since I've been in the hobby) Tyranids have been the army to have options to do almost anything to any unit they want, with the exception of the current dex. I want the option to take extended carapace or the old scything talons or the old toxin sacs or FLESH HOOKS on whatever. If I want a 4+ save stealer, I have the ability to do that. If I want a s4 hormagaunt, I can do that. And so on, and so forth. Give me options, give me possibilities to customise and differentiate my swarm of faceless monstrosities from any other.
Obviously, tied in with the above is appropriate pricing. By having a half sensible points cost and not being able to muck about with Toughness and Wounds, that shouldn't turn out too badly.

SWARMS (the **)
Rather than having small beasty units, medium warrior units and a few big bugs, why not let the gaunts and warrior sized units combine, and the larger bugs group up.
Effectively, you give the Warrior, Ravenor, Zoanthrope, Venomthropes and so on the ability to split ala wolfguard and lead their minions around the place. This should still let them have protection from big guns without having to rely on Eternal Warrior or something similar whilst having a nice, fluffy swarm feel to the army. Combine that with a wounds drop to 2 and the option to add a few different types to a unit, and this should prevent some units being pointless against certain armies whilst still giving your opponent the ability to go after your synapse nodes
The other half of that would be to let Mawlocs, Tyrannofexes and so on be taken in units of 1-3.

Finally, a decently balanced codex, both internally and externally.

Camman1984
09-11-2013, 12:33
I like some of these, not sure about the royal court style warriors though as you end up with the 'nob delivery system' theme that was a big ork thing.

I'd quite like to see the tyrannofex buffed a bit, its a massive imposing model but its rules arent great.

Pyrovres either with a str6 ap3 flamer, or torrent would make them more viable as a choice.

The harpy should be released as a model and have better rules, maybe make it a scaled down harridan that can transport gargoyles, possibly a mechanic to allow the gargoyles to 'look out mummy!" While clinging to its back to make it a bit more survivable. Or play it as a nid bomber.

Make the fex able to compete with things like tervigons and trygons.

Make the trygon and or the tervigon/tfex t7 to account for their increased size.

Doom of malantai to go bye bye as its daft and doesnt have a model anyway.

Lictors to be able to charge after assault or at least do something other than stand their and get shot.

No special characters but have a 'build a boss workshop' maybe have rules like the way relics and demonic gifts work but call them 'targetted evolutions' or something like that.

Tyranid prime to buff ws as well as bs.

Hiveguard in plastic, maybe combined with pyrovore and biovores model.

Models for shrikes

Rumbleguts
09-11-2013, 17:41
Tyrannofex - Large reduction in cost, its way to expensive for the stats compared to Riptides and Wraithknights. Make the special weapons purchasable twice, this would also necessitate new gun arms that would be left/right usable and the weapons to NOT need two arms to use. If they intend to keep the primary weapons so short ranged make it capable of deep striking, using a mycetic spore if need be.

Alpha Warrior - Make his special ability work on any unit he joins, not just tyranid warriors. Allow him an option to upgrade to a lvl 1 psyker, tyranids could really use an independent character psyker.

Carnifex - Large reduction in point cost or a small decrease and give it a 2+ armor save. Make bioplasma usable after all blows have been struck, roll a d6 for each model in close combat with carnifex, on a 5+ it takes a str 6, ap 4 hit. For each additional carnifex in the brood with bioplasma also in the combat +1 to the die roll.

Lictors - Change the chameleon scales to give them shroud and let them infiltrate instead of deep strike.

Broodlord - Give them decent powers to buff the unit. One defense one offense. Something like the telekinetic barrier as a defensive ability and something that gives +1 attack and reduces the broods rend to a 5+.

Hive Tyrant - Upgradable to lvl 2 psykers.

Harpy - Special rules for making vector strike attacks, more variety in weapon choices.

Venomthropes - make them independent characters purchased as a unit that can join other units, like sanguinary priests.

Pyrovore - +1 toughness, remove Volatile, add torrent.

Strangleweb - make it ignore armor.

So many things need to be done. 5th edition codex had a few bright spots, but only by comparison to what else was in the codex.

MajorWesJanson
09-11-2013, 19:43
Psy powers: Add 1/2 charts specifically for Nids.
Shadow in the Warp becomes Enemy models are -1 Ld within 12", -3 when making a psychic test.
Non-synapse creatures become base Ld6 (or Ld5 if they are already 5), +3 Ld in synapse range.

Biomorphs/Weapons:
Regeneration grants It Will Not Die
Fleshhooks count as Assault grenades
Adrenal Glands grant +1I
Tusked adds +1 Hammer of Wrath hit on the charge and grants HoW wounds Rending
Toxic Misama counts as defensive grenades
Crushing claws don't add attacks instead grant armorbane to the model in CC
Scythe Tail grants rampage USR
Mace tail grants concussive USR to model in CC
Enhanced Senses grants night vision
Strangleweb S3 AP- 12" Assault 1 Pinning, Wounds vs Target's I value
Barbed strangler S4 AP6 24" Assault 1 Blast, Pinning, Wounds vs Target's I value
Stranglethorn cannon S5 AP5 36" Large Blast, Pinning, Wounds vs Targets I value
Venom cannon/Heavy Venom cannon- Venom splash- When hitting a vehicle, resolve vs side armor, but on a pen, subtract 1 from the roll on the damage chart.
Hive Tyrant T6 4W ML2 base. May choose one of (Armored Shell 2+, Wings, or Warp Barrier, a 5++ save)May upgrade to ML3 May roll on biomancy or Nid psyker chart

Zoanthropes ML1 with 2 fixed powers- warp lance/blast, can upgrade to level 2 and roll for an additional power. May roll on Telepathy or Nid psyker chart.
Doom of Malantai is ML3 with Warplance/blast, psychic shriek from Telepathy, and life leech from biomancy. May reroll failed psychic tests.

Warriors 2W t5 base. May choose one of (Bonded Exoskeleton 3+, Extended Carapace +1W, or Wings)

Tervigon Remove from HQ, make troop only. Remove requirement for termigant squad, but does not count as your mandatory troop choice. Only rolls on Nid chart for powers.

Pyrovore- give flamespurt torrent, allow alternate fire mode- Flamegout 18" S8 AP1 melta.

Genestealers- When moving and charging, difficult cover counts as open ground, and dangerous terrain counts as difficult terrain. Give stealth (ruins) Broodlord ML1, can buy ML2.

Lictor- Chamelionic Skin- grants Infiltrate, may only be shot at by snap shots.

Carnifex- Drop to 100 base, 4+. May take Bonded Exoskeleton 3+ for 30 points, Extended Carapace +1W for 20.
Devourer with brainleech bumped to 30 points per.

Tyrannofex: S7 T7 keep at 250
Rupture Cannon S10 AP4 48" large blast
Acid Spray S5 AP3 Torrent
Fleashborer hive S4 AP6 24" Heavy 20

El_Machinae
09-11-2013, 21:46
Thematically, I'd like it to be more possible to do true hoard armies. Something like a discount on the 2nd 10 'nids I put into a unit. I wanna be able to get the ol' starship trooper feels to my waves & waves of disposables.

MajorWesJanson
09-11-2013, 23:41
Thematically, I'd like it to be more possible to do true hoard armies. Something like a discount on the 2nd 10 'nids I put into a unit. I wanna be able to get the ol' starship trooper feels to my waves & waves of disposables.

I forgot to add that to my list.
Termigants/Hormagaunts 10 models, 6 points base
May add up to 20 additional gants for 5 points a model
If the unit includes at least 30 models, may add up to 20 more gants for 4 points a model.

Zothos
10-11-2013, 01:39
Wow.

I understand the wish for a better Codex and I truly hope Tyranids get one.

That said, some of these ideas are insanely overpowered.

All Cing Eye
10-11-2013, 01:57
I'd just want a few things,

Flesh Hooks to become assault grenades

Allow the lictor to attack as soon as it jumps out

Lower the points on Carnifexes a little

Allow the option to take two sets of crushing claws on a Carnifex

Remove the regular Tervigon from HQ and create a Tervigon Prime HQ entry with a greater synapse range

Help the poor Pyrovore

Carnage
10-11-2013, 03:01
Psy powers: Add 1/2 charts specifically for Nids. -Rumored, but dunno if it's going to happen. It REALLY needs to happen though, as biomancy 24/7 is going to get old in a hurry
Shadow in the Warp becomes Enemy models are -1 Ld within 12", -3 when making a psychic test.
Non-synapse creatures become base Ld6 (or Ld5 if they are already 5), +3 Ld in synapse range. -Interesting Shadows/synapse change, I assume you would drop fearless from synapse then?

Biomorphs/Weapons:
Regeneration grants It Will Not Die Agreed, although it would be a nerf on the old regen post-3 wounds lost. Needs to be reasonably cheap IMO.
Fleshhooks count as Assault grenades I don't think this is the way to go for assault grenades IMO, I'd like to see some sort of "nimble creature" for hormigants and stealers or a sub-rule to synapse that allows charging nids to ignore terrain. Leave flesh hooks as something else, eg, vertical climbing, a "reel in" shooting attack, have charged unit not able to over watch, something like that.
Adrenal Glands grant +1I Instead of furious charge? Initiative boosts are really....inconsistent. With cover/grenade interactions, and odd tier-ing of initiative levels the price on +1I is really hard to price properly.
Tusked adds +1 Hammer of Wrath hit on the charge and grants HoW wounds Rending +1S on HOW maybe?
Toxic Misama counts as defensive grenades Fair enough, but again, really hard to price. Who charges anyone who could take it? Only top end beat sticks, that's who. Makes it really hard to price appropriately.
Crushing claws don't add attacks instead grant armorbane to the model in CC Disagreed. Not saying crushing claws shouldn't change, but armorbane is just about useless on monstrous creature due to smash.
Scythe Tail grants rampage USR Fair enough
Mace tail grants concussive USR to model in CC Solid
Enhanced Senses grants night vision Agreed...wouldn't mind it giving +1BS as well though.
Strangleweb S3 AP- 12" Assault 1 Pinning, Wounds vs Target's I value
Barbed strangler S4 AP6 24" Assault 1 Blast, Pinning, Wounds vs Target's I value
Stranglethorn cannon S5 AP5 36" Large Blast, Pinning, Wounds vs Targets I valueInteresting, although I'm not sure how well it would work, as there's some weird Initiative values out there. You'd wound riptides on a 2 or 3 and Eldar infantry you'd need a 5 or 6, it's like a grav gun in some ways. Not sure you could price them competitively, as they'd be situational as hell.
Venom cannon/Heavy Venom cannon- Venom splash- When hitting a vehicle, resolve vs side armor, but on a pen, subtract 1 from the roll on the damage chart. Neat, but what would you put it's strength/shots at? It would be super efftive against predators/chimeras, but wouldn't help against Land Raiders, dreadnoughts, soul grinder or the like.
Hive Tyrant T6 4W ML2 base. May choose one of (Armored Shell 2+, Wings, or Warp Barrier, a 5++ save)May upgrade to ML3 May roll on biomancy or Nid psyker chart. You should be able to take the invul on top of wings or shell. Tyrant needs to start at ML2, so agreed there, but the upgrade to lvl 3 I could take or leave.

Zoanthropes ML1 with 2 fixed powers- warp lance/blast, can upgrade to level 2 and roll for an additional power. May roll on Telepathy or Nid psyker chart. Not sure being able to bump zoans to level 2 is a great idea....odd stuff might happen.
Doom of Malantai is ML3 with Warplance/blast, psychic shriek from Telepathy, and life leech from biomancy. May reroll failed psychic tests. DoM needs to change, but I don't think this is the route I'd go.

Warriors 2W t5 base. May choose one of (Bonded Exoskeleton 3+, Extended Carapace +1W, or Wings) I thought this was crazy at first....but looks solid actually. I think +1W would almost always be better unless you are facing walls of autocannon, assault cannon and heavy bolter fire.

Tervigon Remove from HQ, make troop only. Remove requirement for termigant squad, but does not count as your mandatory troop choice. Only rolls on Nid chart for powers. No disagreement here.

Pyrovore- give flamespurt torrent, allow alternate fire mode- Flamegout 18" S8 AP1 melta. Would still be T4 W2 with virtually no save. It's be a short ranged glass cannon, which needless to say, is a contradiction. Would basically require a drop pod

Genestealers- When moving and charging, difficult cover counts as open ground, and dangerous terrain counts as difficult terrain. Give stealth (ruins) Broodlord ML1, can buy ML2. I really think stealers need to go to 4+ save, so take a big points drop, but the terrain changes sound interesting. I personally HATE stealth/shrouded, as it's becoming 6th edition's version of feel no pain.

Lictor- Chamelionic Skin- grants Infiltrate, may only be shot at by snap shots. I might amend the rule to allow template weapons to hit him...the whole "flushing him out of cover thing". Only snap shots would also make him functionally immune to blast and large blast weapons. Potentially overpowered or too expensive. Imagine dropping a couple of these directly infront of a riptide or vindicator....it wouldn't really be balanced now would it?

Carnifex- Drop to 100 base, 4+. May take Bonded Exoskeleton 3+ for 30 points, Extended Carapace +1W for 20. Oh god, do carnifexes ever need a price cut. 100 is about right IMO, but I'm not sure I'd price the upgrades so expensive. Needs be option to be 2+ save as well. I'd also like to see MASSIVE charge bonuses for a carnifex, make it into a really badass line breaker. Ramage, rage, hammer of wrath working at AP2....something like that. Basically make all of it's melee damage front loaded.
Devourer with brainleech bumped to 30 points per. For a flyrant...maybe, as with skyfire it's off the hook, but it's not amazingly effective as an anti-infantry weapon with AP-, and S6 isn't exactly terrifying AV12+ tanks.

Tyrannofex: S7 T7 keep at 250
Rupture Cannon S10 AP4 48" large blast
Acid Spray S5 AP3 Torrent
Fleashborer hive S4 AP6 24" Heavy 20 The Tyrannofex needs a better main cannon, and not just a little better either. Look at the Wraithknight for 240 points. It's +2T, +3I, +1WS, +1BS, +4S, +1A, and it's guns are AP2....and it loses out on the 2+ save and 12" of weapons range. A bump of +1T and a large blast on it's primary weapon is NOT closing that gap, not nearly enough anyways. It's it's going to play at being a tough gun platform, it needs some scary guns. Even bumping the Rupture cannon to S10 AP2 large blast 48" range wouldn't be enough to cover 250 points IMO, as the riptide can run S9 AP2 with a decent secondary weapon, with comparable or better survivabilty for about 60 points less.



Interesting ideas at any rate.

The book needs (IMO);

New psychic disciplines. Frankly, 24/7/365 biomancy being the best is boring, and the currently psychic power charts have too many traps for BS0 Broodlords. The rumors about 2 new psychic disciplines make me so SO happy it isn't funny.

A compelling reason to take a non-flying Hive Tyrant; This means solid anti-aircraft firepower elsewhere, and/or the ability to use fortifications properly as well as making tyrant guard total bad-asses.

More flexibility in the Tyranid Prime; Make it so that it's an "Alpha" of any warrior-type brood. Base warriors, raveners, shrikes, maybe a Lictor Alpha?....etc.

Tervigons need changes; ATM they are no brainer choices. While I don't want them nerfed, they need to be less "Take 1 per 1000 points, or else you lose". I'd love to be able to produce hormigants, or other gaunt species, but I fear any upgrade in that direction would be excessively expensive points wise. The reason they are so awesome now is all the "discounts" they give. Spawning on average 21 gaunts (105 points worth) and providing toxin/adrenal to ~30 gaunts (for a saving of 60 more points) on TOP of counter attack, being a scoring monstrous creature, synapse AND access to upto 3 psychic powers makes them AMAZING. Once you factor in all the points you "save" it's functionally a ~40 point creature, which is just silly IMO. Honestly, I have no idea how to fix these things without nerfing them into the group, making them bland, pointless, super random or straight up silly.

Lictors need either Stealth + shrouded, or the "only hit by snap fire when arriving" ability. If they want to have the Lictors work as "locator beacons", they need to be able to arrive turn one or work on the turn they arrive. The current Ymgarls genestealer rules would work for them, but I have a feeling those are going bye bye in the new book, as charging from off the board is now a thing of the past. The feeder tentacle rules from 4th were cool too, preferred enemy to friendlies within 6" would be a cool boast to other units and would allow them to work in a support role. These need to be 1-3 for an elite (or fast attack really) choice, and need to be able to work by themselves.

Ymgarls are going to eat the nerf bat. They should just be rolled into normal genestealers IMO, since I can almost guarantee the charge from reserve rule will be gone, which will leave these guys without a role.

Zoanthrope; Need to be making less rolls if warp blast/lance is going to be viable. Psychic test -- Deny the witch -- Roll to hit -- Roll to wound -- Armor/cover is just too many points of failure. It makes the most potent weapon in the game(S10, AP1 Lance...can't be beat) a joke of randomness. IMO, zoans need to auto-pass the psychic test and/or not have to deal with DtW. How these guys turn out will be up to new psychic disciplines, but IMO these guys (and lictors) are one of the hardest to get right for GW.

Hive Guard; Honestly, I expect the nerf bat. Going up points and/or a drop in toughness at least, possibly a drop in the impaler strength to S7. How these guys fare is up to the new weapon loadouts and points costs.

Doom of Malantai; Nerf bat incoming! As a no brainer at 90 points...well, he's going up to 130+ or having some of his toys taken away. Hopefully he's left somewhat useful. Might want to roll him into the zoan brood as a "special sergeant" type deal. They have to be super careful about this guy balance wise. If they make him a ML2+ creature, everyone is just going to roll biomancy for that Iron Arm. Iron Arm Doom is quite possibly the most over powered unit in the game for it's points ATM.

Venomthropes; I've got nothing....Too fragile, and the buffs aren't significant enough ATM. Maybe allow them to locally improve the effectiveness of poison to 2+? -1 enemy toughness aura? Making them independent characters would be going too far the other direction, and make them over powered. Lots of ways to improve them IMO, just not sure which would be best.

Pyrovores; Need a re-write from the ground up. Torrent, improved survivability to start. Alternate fire melta sounds cool, but going to AP3 while being allowed a drop pod would make them the "Tyranid Helldrake" and frankly Power armor has suffered enough in 6th.

Hormigants; Need points costs rebalances. 6 points for the base gant is....barely acceptable, i think they'd do better at 5. The upgrades being 2 points each is frankly insulting though, they NEED to be 1 each. You cannot have a melee based, T3 6+ save creature costing 10 points and make any claim that it's even remotely effective. Look to demonettes for low toughness melee troops. 9 points gets you basically a hormigant, with +2 WS, a 5+ invul and rending....sign me up for that. Even your basically 6 point slugga boy makes a mess of our 6 point hormigants....never mind the 10 point version. Need mad damage boosts or a cost reduction, maybe move them back to being beasts?

Termigants; I'm actually not unhappy with where they are at ATM, but I think that's largely due to the Tervigon propping them up though. Dev gaunts and basic ones are fine, but the other weapons needs to be brought into line with the fleshborer and devourer.

Genestealers; Expensive, no armor save melee troops.....that isn't a thing anymore. Stealth? 4+ save base? Massive points reduction (10-12 base)? Not sure what direction they want to go, but look at Khorne Hounds when you want to see an effective 16 point killing machine. Whatever they do, I want these guys to ROCK. I've run genestealer heavy lists forever, and the rise of the Tervigons and the nerfs to melee has really made these guys look like crap in the last 4 years.

Gargoyles; These guys get better every single edition. Mark my words, these guys will be even more awesome in the new book.

Shrike/Warriors/Ravenors; Well, we know the problem, and we have dreamed up DOZENS of solutions (EW synapse, T5 W2, 3+ saves, point reductions...etc) but I have no idea what they want to do here. 40k is broken into 2 classes of units pretty much, Infantry and Big Stuff. Infantry is easy to explain, they are your gaunts, imperial guardsmen, space marines, terminators...etc. Stuff you can get rid of with small arms, template and blast weapons and volume of fire. The big guys on the other hand are your T6+ Monstrous creatures and vehicles, the things you need heavy weapons to kill effectively or you will end up wasting hundreds upon hundreds of small arms shots to kill them. The problem with the warrior/shrike/ravenor unit is that they are "medium" unit, and they take a ton of damage from both small arms, due to low toughness and save, and from heavy weapons due to instant death.

Lessons can be learned from Acanthrites, Grotesques, Word Bearer Gal Vorbak, chaos spawn, plague drones and the like in that T5 W3 with either a 3+ normal or 5+ invul isn't game breaking.....outside the troop slot. Frankly I think your base warriors have to move back to elite/HQ to have any chance of being good, other wise they will be a mediocre unit for the foreseeable future.

Harpy; A good place for our anti-aircraft platform IMO. Needs to be re-written from the ground up anyways.

Biovores; I'm happy with them as they are actually. Different mines might be interesting, but not really necessary, as one will emerge as the prominent TAC mine and the rest will be ignored. (In third it was the always wound on a 4+ AP4 mine I think, as the AP3 one was too random, and S4 AP5 didn't scare anyone).

Trygons; Re-write the tunnel rules into something.....not retarded. Maybe allow you to attach a basic infantry unit to him and the pop up at the same time/place? Would be cool with hormigants/genestealer anyways. Let units coming out of the tunnel in following turns to charge on arrival? That's not likely though with the new "no charge from reserve" rules. The Prime upgrade needs to be re-jigged, as 40 points for synapse and a few extra shots @ BS3 is silly. It needs to be a bigger change IMO. Maybe a shift to HQ and/or ML1? As probably our best melee beatstick, I'd like to see him strengthened for that role as well....but I'm not sure how exactly. Any WS, S, T, W, I or A bumps would put him into weird territories, and he rerolls all to hit and most wound rolls already with poison anyways. Make him a beast maybe? Raveners are, and he's basically the "boss ravener". More impact hits? A bump in survivabilty to shooting wouldn't hurt IMO, as he gets eaten pretty fast with plasma/las/grav these days.

Carnifexes; Turn them into god damned battering rams. Front load an absolute TON of their damage. I'm taking about being base A2, but +D6 on the charge, rampage, rage, fleet, reroll all misses on the charge....etc. Make it so they annihilate on the charge, but suck at grinding units down long term, so he's the proverbial tip of the spear. The gun platform options I frankly don't care about, and they should all be rolled into the Tyranno-fex as our heavy support gun beast. The original reason for giving them guns in the first place is because there were only 2 MCs back in the day, and it was necessary to use them as a gun platform. Now that there are 5+ MCs in the codex he can go back to being a battering ram and leave the guns to Tyranno-fexes.

MajorWesJanson
10-11-2013, 04:45
Interesting ideas at any rate.

The book needs (IMO);

New psychic disciplines. Frankly, 24/7/365 biomancy being the best is boring, and the currently psychic power charts have too many traps for BS0 Broodlords. The rumors about 2 new psychic disciplines make me so SO happy it isn't funny.
Agreed
A compelling reason to take a non-flying Hive Tyrant; This means solid anti-aircraft firepower elsewhere, and/or the ability to use fortifications properly as well as making tyrant guard total bad-asses.
Hive Guard may get an AA option, and the Harpy could use a boost. Maybe a boost to S7 base so it is at least comparable in vector strikes to the Hell Drake
More flexibility in the Tyranid Prime; Make it so that it's an "Alpha" of any warrior-type brood. Base warriors, raveners, shrikes, maybe a Lictor Alpha?....etc.
Maybe make it not an IC, but an Alpha Brood? Say upgrade a Ravenor, Warrior, or Shrike Brood to Alphas, they become HQ, Synapse, and +1LD?
Tervigons need changes; ATM they are no brainer choices. While I don't want them nerfed, they need to be less "Take 1 per 1000 points, or else you lose". I'd love to be able to produce hormigants, or other gaunt species, but I fear any upgrade in that direction would be excessively expensive points wise. The reason they are so awesome now is all the "discounts" they give. Spawning on average 21 gaunts (105 points worth) and providing toxin/adrenal to ~30 gaunts (for a saving of 60 more points) on TOP of counter attack, being a scoring monstrous creature, synapse AND access to upto 3 psychic powers makes them AMAZING. Once you factor in all the points you "save" it's functionally a ~40 point creature, which is just silly IMO. Honestly, I have no idea how to fix these things without nerfing them into the group, making them bland, pointless, super random or straight up silly.
Remove from HQ choice. Troop choice with no requirement to take tervigons, but cannot be mandatory troop choices. Drop to ML1, upgrade to ML2 as an option. Only roll on Nid psychic charts. Remove option for Adrenal Glands and Toxin sacs. All termigant units within 6" gain furious charge and counterattack. Maybe an upgrade to spawn hormugants instead of termigants. It takes away some of the strongest elements (ML3 psykers, 5 in a normal list, free poison on gaunts) but leaves them as useful for spawning ans support.

Lictors need either Stealth + shrouded, or the "only hit by snap fire when arriving" ability. If they want to have the Lictors work as "locator beacons", they need to be able to arrive turn one or work on the turn they arrive. The current Ymgarls genestealer rules would work for them, but I have a feeling those are going bye bye in the new book, as charging from off the board is now a thing of the past. The feeder tentacle rules from 4th were cool too, preferred enemy to friendlies within 6" would be a cool boast to other units and would allow them to work in a support role. These need to be 1-3 for an elite (or fast attack really) choice, and need to be able to work by themselves.
Agreed. Actually, maybe give it the Invisibility psychic power but as a non psychic ability (check on a Ld test, so basically the psyker power, but not being a psyker) which fits fluffwise and mechanics wise.

Ymgarls are going to eat the nerf bat. They should just be rolled into normal genestealers IMO, since I can almost guarantee the charge from reserve rule will be gone, which will leave these guys without a role.
Ymgarls ought to just be an upgrade to normal Genestealers that gives them the "pick a trait" ability

Zoanthrope; Need to be making less rolls if warp blast/lance is going to be viable. Psychic test -- Deny the witch -- Roll to hit -- Roll to wound -- Armor/cover is just too many points of failure. It makes the most potent weapon in the game(S10, AP1 Lance...can't be beat) a joke of randomness. IMO, zoans need to auto-pass the psychic test and/or not have to deal with DtW. How these guys turn out will be up to new psychic disciplines, but IMO these guys (and lictors) are one of the hardest to get right for GW.
Maybe make them ML1 base, can buy to ML2, roll on the nid chart. Then make Warp Blast and Warp Lance a shooting attack that you just spend a warp point to fire, without the test. Don't roll for powers, but upgrade to ML2 maybe you could spend 2 points to twinlink the shot or fire twice

Hive Guard; Honestly, I expect the nerf bat. Going up points and/or a drop in toughness at least, possibly a drop in the impaler strength to S7. How these guys fare is up to the new weapon loadouts and points costs.
With the new box art, I imagine the weapons will change- Impaler cannon drop to say S7 AP4 Assault 3 Ignores Los, or a single shot S9 AP2/3 Assault 1 Ignores LOS, then a 15-20 point biomorph that lets them choose to skyfire. Sort of like lesser Broadsides.

Doom of Malantai; Nerf bat incoming! As a no brainer at 90 points...well, he's going up to 130+ or having some of his toys taken away. Hopefully he's left somewhat useful. Might want to roll him into the zoan brood as a "special sergeant" type deal. They have to be super careful about this guy balance wise. If they make him a ML2+ creature, everyone is just going to roll biomancy for that Iron Arm. Iron Arm Doom is quite possibly the most over powered unit in the game for it's points ATM.
I still think make him a ML2/3 Zoanthrope that comes with fixed powers- say Life Leech and Dominate from Telepathy and a nova version of psychic shriek. He would still be nasty, but far more situational, and making his psychic shriek ability an actual psychic power would help balance it a lot.

Venomthropes; I've got nothing....Too fragile, and the buffs aren't significant enough ATM. Maybe allow them to locally improve the effectiveness of poison to 2+? -1 enemy toughness aura? Making them independent characters would be going too far the other direction, and make them over powered. Lots of ways to improve them IMO, just not sure which would be best.
Maybe just bump the spore cloud to 12" instead of 6" It would let them hang back more, or cover more units with less venomthropes total.

Pyrovores; Need a re-write from the ground up. Torrent, improved survivability to start. Alternate fire melta sounds cool, but going to AP3 while being allowed a drop pod would make them the "Tyranid Helldrake" and frankly Power armor has suffered enough in 6th.
Pyrovore- give flamespurt torrent, allow alternate fire mode- Flamegout 18" S8 AP1 melta. Bump it to T5? It's big enough.

Hormigants; Need points costs rebalances. 6 points for the base gant is....barely acceptable, i think they'd do better at 5. The upgrades being 2 points each is frankly insulting though, they NEED to be 1 each. You cannot have a melee based, T3 6+ save creature costing 10 points and make any claim that it's even remotely effective. Look to demonettes for low toughness melee troops. 9 points gets you basically a hormigant, with +2 WS, a 5+ invul and rending....sign me up for that. Even your basically 6 point slugga boy makes a mess of our 6 point hormigants....never mind the 10 point version. Need mad damage boosts or a cost reduction, maybe move them back to being beasts?
Make the max size larger, say 50 models (guard can blob to be bigger than that, so 50 should work). I still want a way for them to get cheaper the larger a unit you make to encourage swarms. Either a discount for larger numbers, or make some of the upgrades like adrenal glands and toxin sacs a fixed price, so it becomes more efficient to run larger broods with upgrades- Say 20 points for the upgrade whether the brood is 10 models or 50.


Termigants; I'm actually not unhappy with where they are at ATM, but I think that's largely due to the Tervigon propping them up though. Dev gaunts and basic ones are fine, but the other weapons needs to be brought into line with the fleshborer and devourer.
See hormigants

Genestealers; Expensive, no armor save melee troops.....that isn't a thing anymore. Stealth? 4+ save base? Massive points reduction (10-12 base)? Not sure what direction they want to go, but look at Khorne Hounds when you want to see an effective 16 point killing machine. Whatever they do, I want these guys to ROCK. I've run genestealer heavy lists forever, and the rise of the Tervigons and the nerfs to melee has really made these guys look like crap in the last 4 years.
I'll repeat my terrain idea- replace move through cover with "When moving and charging, difficult cover counts as open ground, and dangerous terrain counts as difficult terrain." Maybe drop to 11 points base, with the option to buy 4+ armor for 3 points a model. Make scything talons a 1 point upgrade (instead of 2)

Gargoyles; These guys get better every single edition. Mark my words, these guys will be even more awesome in the new book.
Gargoyles are quite fine as is. At most let a small brood hitch a ride on a harpy.

Shrike/Warriors/Ravenors; Well, we know the problem, and we have dreamed up DOZENS of solutions (EW synapse, T5 W2, 3+ saves, point reductions...etc) but I have no idea what they want to do here. 40k is broken into 2 classes of units pretty much, Infantry and Big Stuff. Infantry is easy to explain, they are your gaunts, imperial guardsmen, space marines, terminators...etc. Stuff you can get rid of with small arms, template and blast weapons and volume of fire. The big guys on the other hand are your T6+ Monstrous creatures and vehicles, the things you need heavy weapons to kill effectively or you will end up wasting hundreds upon hundreds of small arms shots to kill them. The problem with the warrior/shrike/ravenor unit is that they are "medium" unit, and they take a ton of damage from both small arms, due to low toughness and save, and from heavy weapons due to instant death.

Lessons can be learned from Acanthrites, Grotesques, Word Bearer Gal Vorbak, chaos spawn, plague drones and the like in that T5 W3 with either a 3+ normal or 5+ invul isn't game breaking.....outside the troop slot. Frankly I think your base warriors have to move back to elite/HQ to have any chance of being good, other wise they will be a mediocre unit for the foreseeable future.
I'll stick with the build a warrior plan- Warriors 2W t5 base. May choose one of (Bonded Exoskeleton 3+, Extended Carapace +1W, or Wings)

Harpy; A good place for our anti-aircraft platform IMO. Needs to be re-written from the ground up anyways.
Agreed. I'd say at least bump it's strength to S7 so it can vector strike at least as well as the Helldrake

Biovores; I'm happy with them as they are actually. Different mines might be interesting, but not really necessary, as one will emerge as the prominent TAC mine and the rest will be ignored. (In third it was the always wound on a 4+ AP4 mine I think, as the AP3 one was too random, and S4 AP5 didn't scare anyone).
Agreed

Trygons; Re-write the tunnel rules into something.....not retarded. Maybe allow you to attach a basic infantry unit to him and the pop up at the same time/place? Would be cool with hormigants/genestealer anyways. Let units coming out of the tunnel in following turns to charge on arrival? That's not likely though with the new "no charge from reserve" rules. The Prime upgrade needs to be re-jigged, as 40 points for synapse and a few extra shots @ BS3 is silly. It needs to be a bigger change IMO. Maybe a shift to HQ and/or ML1? As probably our best melee beatstick, I'd like to see him strengthened for that role as well....but I'm not sure how exactly. Any WS, S, T, W, I or A bumps would put him into weird territories, and he rerolls all to hit and most wound rolls already with poison anyways. Make him a beast maybe? Raveners are, and he's basically the "boss ravener". More impact hits? A bump in survivabilty to shooting wouldn't hurt IMO, as he gets eaten pretty fast with plasma/las/grav these days.
Trygon Prime upgrade grants it synapse, shadow in the warp, and moves it to HQ would make sense. As for Trygon Tunnels, easy easy way to simplify them- Roll for and resolve placing any Trygons in reserve before rolling for any other units in reserve. When a Trygon arrives, place a 3" tunnel marker touching it's base and more than 1" from any enemy models. One unit (without the wings biomorph) per turn in reserves or ongoing reserves that would arrive normally or outflank may choose to arrive through the tunnel instead, treating the marker as if it were your board edge.

Carnifexes; Turn them into god damned battering rams. Front load an absolute TON of their damage. I'm taking about being base A2, but +D6 on the charge, rampage, rage, fleet, reroll all misses on the charge....etc. Make it so they annihilate on the charge, but suck at grinding units down long term, so he's the proverbial tip of the spear. The gun platform options I frankly don't care about, and they should all be rolled into the Tyranno-fex as our heavy support gun beast. The original reason for giving them guns in the first place is because there were only 2 MCs back in the day, and it was necessary to use them as a gun platform. Now that there are 5+ MCs in the codex he can go back to being a battering ram and leave the guns to Tyranno-fexes.

Carnifex
WS3 BS3 S8 T6 W4 I2 4A Ld7 3+ 1-3 in the unit, must take same biomorphs. 120 points per
2 sets of scything talons
Fearless
Living Battering Ram- gets d3 Hammer of Wrath hits on the charge instead of 1.
May take one of:
Extended Carapace +1W 20 points
Armored Shell 2+ save 40 points
May take one of:
Mace Tail (grants concussive USR in melee) 15 points
Scythe Tail (grants rampage USR in melee) 15 points
May replace one set of of scything talons with:
Crushing Claws (grants armorbane) 15 points
May replace one set of scything talons with:
Stranglethorn Cannon 20 points
Heavy Venom Cannon 25 points
May replace any set of Scything talons with:
TL Deathspitter 15 points per
TL Devourer with Brainleech 25 points per
May take:
Regenerate (It Will not Die USR) 20 points
Enhanced Senses (+1 BS, Night Vision USR) 15 points
Tusked (, Rage USR, Hammer of Wrath wounds gain rending) 15 points
Frag Spines 10 points
Adrenal Glands 10 points
Toxin Sacs 10 points
Bioplasma (Template, S7 AP2) 25 points

wyvirn
10-11-2013, 08:07
And since we're not limited to mainstream GW, I would l would love to see a 2 part FW IA series with a Genestealer cult list and some new huge monsters.

Ironbone
10-11-2013, 09:56
Pah, have everything you want, just avoid sily stuff like Ap3 torrent flamers, T6+ FMC, TR monsters, and so on :).

Nubl0
10-11-2013, 12:33
I duno, would giving the pyrovore an ap3 torrent flamer really break him? I guess since the majority of players use marines and would hate him but if he can only be bought alone it wouldn't be hard to knock him out.

Ironbone
10-11-2013, 15:00
I duno, would giving the pyrovore an ap3 torrent flamer really break him?
Depends on the rest of statline, but torrent on its own is utterly terrible, discarding templates greatest weknesses (range) with absoulety no downsides. Combined with AP3, it's just asking for another broken unit.

Carnage
10-11-2013, 17:16
I duno, would giving the pyrovore an ap3 torrent flamer really break him? I guess since the majority of players use marines and would hate him but if he can only be bought alone it wouldn't be hard to knock him out.


Depends on the rest of statline, but torrent on its own is utterly terrible, discarding templates greatest weknesses (range) with absoulety no downsides. Combined with AP3, it's just asking for another broken unit.

If they had an AP3 torrent flamer, they would have to be disallowed from using pods, as you would basically have the new tyranid helldrake unit. 3 pyros + pod x 3....that's elites done, and you basically guarantee 3 dead units on arrival, and they wouldn't be able to be charged due to wall of death wrecking you, so you'd have to shoot them all to death before they get a second shot off. Doesn't even matter if they were T1 W1, they would be over powered unless the pyros were 80+ points each, the alpha strike would be just too effective.

Wiseman
11-11-2013, 03:32
Shadow of the Warp: -1LD for enemies within 12" for each unit with shadow SotW, Makes you choose whether to spread your synapse web out over the table, or to condense it into an area to lower a units LD you want to make run.
Synapse: LD 6 for all non synapse tyranid's, LD 10 and Stubborn, for all in synapse range.
Living Ammunition: Bring it back, means that ranged weaponry can keep lower S
2 psychic Tables, ones full of blessings, the other is maledictions
Special characters are unit upgrades instead of running around by themselves (except parasite and swarmlord)
Lots of upgrades for each unit like in the past as well, being able to really customise each unit to serve a purpose


Hive Tyrants: option to make ML 2. Can buy nearly every upgrade in the book.

Tyrant Guard, auto pass look out sir for hive tyrants. Shield wall rule, like DW Knights for +1 T.

Zoanthropes: ML 1 as they are now, ML 2 comes with a power to increase other abilities, twin linked guns, or increase psychic shield by +1 until start of your next turn, but you can't shoot that turn at all.

Venomthropes: 12" range of defensive grenades enemies taking difficult terrain tests within 12" also take Dangerous terrain tests (if already dangerous terrain, fails on a 1 or 2). Or they can grant poison 4+ to nearby units.

Lictors: can charge on turn arrive, get rid of shooting attack, if flesh hooks hit, then the enemy loses benefit of cover for that turn when charged by lictors. Give precision shot and strike. Also act as a locator beacon.

Pyrovore: Give Flamespurt torrent, S6 Ap4, keep volatile, but make it when dies, not just when instant killed, but explosion cant hurt other pyrovores.

Ymgarl: these are going to be the biggest losers, no longer able to charge after arriving from reserve, but allow them to choose there ability at the start of each player turn, so can get +1T against enemy shooting.


Hive Guard: new gun, hoping its a big spike cannon that can choose Skyfire each shooting phase, can force rerolls to crash tests.

Hormogaunts: upgrades 1 point each, become beasts instead of infantry.

Termagants: up to 50 models, change the guns up so that they are all fairly unique.
Devourer: S4 Assault 2 18" -1LD for tests caused.
Fleshborer: as is
Spike Rifle: S3 18" Skyfire, reroll grounding tests for FMC (troop choice with unit wide skyfire is an odd one i know, wouldn't hurt flyers, and would rarely hurt FMC, but could bring them out of the air)
Spinefist S2 8" range, twin linked when over watching.
Spineweb: give it Strikedown USR

Tervigon: cost more points, ML 1, can upgrade to ML 2.

Genestealers: drop to 12 points, +1 A. Broodlord ML 1 can go ML 2,

Warriors: I like how they are currently, I'd just drop the points significantly on them, each brood can take an Alpha Warrior


Gargoyles: they rock as they are, wouldnt change them.

Raveners: one can upgrade to red terror, who can swallow non bulky units in a challenge.

Harpy: S7, when vector Striking, can either drop spores on the enemy (no longer one use only) or sonic shriek them to halve their I (so they no longer need to charge and become vulnerable to use this). Have an AA option as well with Hive guard style weaponry.

Shrikes: make them cheaper.


Carnifex: Make them living battering rams, impact hits like Chariots (D6). I agree with the upgrades mentioned above as well, tusked, mace tail and scythe tail.

Trygon: Prime becomes HQ choice. Is deployed before other units reserve rolls are made, they can then enter play within 6" of his base, as if it were a table edge. Moves like a beast.

Mawloc: Moves like a beast

Biovore: bring back different types of spore mines
S1 Ap - Large blast, poison 4+
S4 Ap 4 Flamer
S 4 AP - Blast, Armour Bane

T Fex: Make him worth taking, currently, he seems very underwhelming compared to the other large oval base units out there.
Rupture Cannon becomes large blast, probably 1 shot as well. Make it 2 fleshborer hives he takes, not one, so puts out 40 short range shots.


Adrenal Glands: +1 I
Toxin Sacs: Poison 5+
Venom Cannon: Poison 4+ Blast
Heavy Venom Cannon, Poison 2+, Blast
Stranglethorn Cannons: Strikedown
Bio Plasma, also causes Blind test
Feeder Tendrils, preferred enemy

Ruination Drinker
11-11-2013, 04:18
Melee as we know it is dead in 6th so I'm not getting any hopes up for melee buffs for the buggers. What I'd like to see is:

- Webway portal type entrances that have Without number on them for troops choice models. Ideally, these should be able to be placed before the game.
- Fortifications for the buggers. Maybe even combo the WON ability noted above.
- A real flyer for the buggers. This will probably end up being a drake clone, but they need something for that slot.
- A real giant bugger to counter all the giant MC's that already proliferate the game.
- Move Zoans to the heavy support slot and don't count Hive Guard against the FoC if you take a Hive Tyrant.
- Let Zoan's be able to shoot their gun without having to roll vs Ld and DTW for heck's sake.
- Make Warriors T5 so they don't get insta-jibbed if they get hit by a Krak Missile.
- Allow any Tyrannid to ignore challenges...it's just stupid that a bug would accept one in the first place.
- Clone Biovores to have the same abilities of a Thunderfire cannon. Mines are stupid and clot up the game with endless record keeping.
- Give gaunts an ability equivalent to battle focus. They suck in melee, so they should be more shooting oriented.
- Warriors should get specialist rounds like Sternguard.

Carnage
11-11-2013, 05:45
Melee as we know it is dead in 6th so I'm not getting any hopes up for melee buffs for the buggers. What I'd like to see is:

- Webway portal type entrances that have Without number on them for troops choice models. Ideally, these should be able to be placed before the game. -Just....no. Without number doesn't work, as a smart player will just reduce a squad to a small size and leave it alive to kill later, and even losing the brood early meant it isn't going to be able to affect the game because it has too much ground to cover. If Dark Eldar/Eldar/Demons didn't get warp/webway portals, then you can bet your butt nids won't.
- Fortifications for the buggers. Maybe even combo the WON ability noted above. - I'd like to see some Nid terrain, but it isn't happening in a codex, as all of the 6th edition codexes have been fortification free. Maybe in the rumored "fortification" supplement some time in the spring though.
- A real flyer for the buggers. This will probably end up being a drake clone, but they need something for that slot. New flyer/hybrid kit with harpy....yes. Drake clone? No. Power armor has already taken enough of a beating in 6th without adding a nid drake to the list.
- A real giant bugger to counter all the giant MC's that already proliferate the game. Meh. The trygon is beefy enough IMO, and the next step up in the traditional nid hierarchy is the Heirdicule, which is like 500+ points these days and Apoc only for some reason.
- Move Zoans to the heavy support slot and don't count Hive Guard against the FoC if you take a Hive Tyrant. Zoan to heavy? Sure, I can get behind that....FoC free Hive Guard? No reason for that really.
- Let Zoan's be able to shoot their gun without having to roll vs Ld and DTW for heck's sake. Zoans need buffs, this would help.
- Make Warriors T5 so they don't get insta-jibbed if they get hit by a Krak Missile. I could write you an essay about warrior's issues, but bumping to T5 is what should be happening.
- Allow any Tyrannid to ignore challenges...it's just stupid that a bug would accept one in the first place. Meh, doesn't make any less sense than an imperial guard sergeant accepting a challenge from a Bloodthirster.
- Clone Biovores to have the same abilities of a Thunderfire cannon. Mines are stupid and clot up the game with endless record keeping. I'm all for less book keeping, although that doesn't seem to be the way 6th edition is heading. If you want a TF cannon, play marines.
- Give gaunts an ability equivalent to battle focus. They suck in melee, so they should be more shooting oriented.What? We kinda have that via onslaught already. Making it a psychic power is fine by me.
- Warriors should get specialist rounds like Sternguard. Dude, you can't just clone all the best parts of marines and eldar and jam them into the Nid book.....just no.


You need to think of unique, new options instead of just skimming the best out of the Eldar and marine books and renaming them.

Also, melee isn't "dead", it's just that virtually every single melee unit in the game is over priced compared to an equivalent points value of shooting options. If genestealers were 5 points each, I assure you, you would be seeing melee heavy lists for nids.

El_Machinae
11-11-2013, 13:16
I forgot to add that to my list.
Termigants/Hormagaunts 10 models, 6 points base
May add up to 20 additional gants for 5 points a model
If the unit includes at least 30 models, may add up to 20 more gants for 4 points a model.

It's really a ton of fun. It can be done it with houserules and in a friendly game. Then you get these scenarios where your opponent's attacks sweep a buncha troops away, but leave enough residue that he's still worried.

Another thing I've often wished for is the ability to make flying Primes. Having a mobile synapse that's not a Hive Tyrant.

Ruination Drinker
12-11-2013, 03:52
...oh and Zoats. Lots of them.

Archon of Death
12-11-2013, 04:13
Since MCs and Warriors are seriously the only things I care about in the game... The only real issue I have with the Codex has been the cost vs usefulness of Warriors, I feel they are deserving of a 3+ save (it places them within the safety-net that is the point cost jump for AP3), either that or, if they maintain their current save/profile they should be 20 points a model, and possibly with a +1T for 8pts/Warrior and a 3+ save for 4pts/warrior. That would make them affordable for what they give (you can field more so they can actually be useful) and also give you the option of running the Warrior equivalent of Terminators. Meh,that's just me.

Chem-Dog
12-11-2013, 06:48
I don't use 'Nids and I seldom have to face them so I don't have a huge amount of opinion on them But....

I'd kinda like to see Termagants and Hormagaunts dropped down to Ws/Bs 2 and dropped accordingly in price to 2 maybe 3 points per model, increase the squad maximum size and have at it. Make the Tyranid army truly capable of quality through quantity.

Oh, and Genestealer infestations (AKA Cults) would be nice, but I'm not holding my breath.

Charistoph
13-11-2013, 00:05
One thought I've had regarding the Tervigon is they should be moved to Dedicated Transport slots and purchasable by Termagaunts and Hormagaunts. They should lose Synapse, but still give buffs in an area. Even more interesting if they lose the generate ability, but could transport the 'Gaunts at Cavalry speed.

I also think that they should either homogonize the 'Gaunts like the Boyz or separate their types and make the Hormagaunts Beasts that can Score.

For the Harpy, since it has no real model, their are guesses that it will be a dual kit with a more dedicated anti-Flyer version with its own name. But another part to have a Flying Living Transport, similar to the Tervigon idea above, would be awesome idea as well, not just for Gargoyles, but for normal 'Gaunts as well.

The Mycetic Spore does need to be properly addressed and made a Living Transport and work similarly, especially in allowing a Prime to drop in with Warriors.

And while I know the intent behind making the fleshooks assault grenades, but do you think they need to be a Blast weapon? ;)

gLOBS
13-11-2013, 02:29
I don't use 'Nids and I seldom have to face them so I don't have a huge amount of opinion on them But.... I'd kinda like to see Termagants and Hormagaunts dropped down to Ws/Bs 2 and dropped accordingly in price to 2 maybe 3 points per model, increase the squad maximum size and have at it. Make the Tyranid army truly capable of quality through quantity. Oh, and Genestealer infestations (AKA Cults) would be nice, but I'm not holding my breath. I do like this idea of lesser gaunts but with the ability to upgrade to current standards is desired. Make Tyranids jaw dropping in the potential amount of models on the field. With a low WS/BS gaunts best ability would be able to eat bullets without much loss. Seems like it would match the fluff to a T. If those gaunts make it to me can I cut them down fast enough without casualties to fight off the next wave?

Camman1984
13-11-2013, 08:45
Against the majority of enemies dropping ws 3 to 2 makes little difference, still hit most targets on a 4. I wouldnt say it is worth dropping them to 2/3 points.

Having them that cheap will make their hordes too powerful unless they make them easier to kill. I have fought nid hordes this edition when they cost 6pts a model and it is a pain. When you have 150 scoring models to kill and so many attacks incoming, on a fearless platform in most cases. Trying to score objectives becomes really really difficult. If i saw an opponent turn up with 500 fearless models in there 2k force (easy at 2pts a model) i would flat out refuse to play. 40k just doesnt have the rate of fire to kill that number of troops. Say a tactical squad at maximum effectiveness rapid firing every turn (impossible situation really) is going to get 100 shots, 66 hits, 44 kills (assuming no cover). Thats 88 pts of models down? And still 456 gaunts standing.

Balerion
13-11-2013, 09:16
Yeah, 2 point fearless models seems like dangerous "Skavenslave" territory.

nosebiter
13-11-2013, 10:06
I miss the old biomorphs, bring those back but eliminate those that alter T and W.

Use a wider range of T on the models, warriors T 5, carnifex T 7, etc.

Reduce points on several models that are just not worth the cost they have now.

Make all the warlord traits army wide buffs.

Make a tyranid psychic power list that has 3 powers that mess with leadership and 3 powers that buff.

Have raveners and stealers have a sort of assault grenades.

budman
13-11-2013, 10:35
Wow.

I understand the wish for a better Codex and I truly hope Tyranids get one.

That said, some of these ideas are insanely overpowered.

No. not that overpowered.
Nids are maybe the bottom of the list of the large armies. they are the teir 5 army
In the age of chapter tactics, TAU massed fire and riptides , necron flyer spam and wraithknights... The nids need a major upgrade to bring them on par.

Everything gets a point drop take a third off the price of every MC they have
genestealers can assult on turn one from cover
open up what they can do right now the nids have one build Tervigons or lose

nosebiter
13-11-2013, 11:53
It will be very interesting to see if the writer can capture just a little bit of the fear and panic the opposing army feels when battling tyranids.

El_Machinae
13-11-2013, 12:32
The Mycetic Spore does need to be properly addressed and made a Living Transport and work similarly, especially in allowing a Prime to drop in with Warriors.

Holy gosh, yes.
You know, to be honest, I get somewhat jealous over the number of troop types. I just don't feel like we have enough options. When I look at the list, I think that the biomorphs give sufficient plasticity, but on the table, I never feel that. Maybe being able to move other species into troops with an HQ upgrade would help?

Ruination Drinker
13-11-2013, 15:22
Holy gosh, yes.
You know, to be honest, I get somewhat jealous over the number of troop types. I just don't feel like we have enough options. When I look at the list, I think that the biomorphs give sufficient plasticity, but on the table, I never feel that. Maybe being able to move other species into troops with an HQ upgrade would help?

Transports would just get popped T1 like all transports these days. They need alternate ways to get on the board like webways or spawning from bought terrain. But of course, this is madness I'm sure.

wyvirn
14-11-2013, 00:26
Striking from purchased terrain would be an awesome mechanic!

williamsond
14-11-2013, 00:51
I just want to be able to add warriors to broods of small creature and avoid insta-death on warriors too

Ruination Drinker
14-11-2013, 09:03
Striking from purchased terrain would be an awesome mechanic!

It would be super cool and fit the fluff too! Some sort of Brood Flume that was an entrance to the battle field for the bugs is reminiscent of the Battle for Klandathu!

Angelwing
14-11-2013, 11:54
Striking from purchased terrain would be an awesome mechanic!

Then you need the FW broodnests, which fit the bill.

Megad00mer
14-11-2013, 14:35
A lot of what I want for the Tyranids is on the fluff side of things. I would love for Tyranid Special Characters to stop being "individuals" and start being explicitly referred to as rare and specialist sub species. The Tyranids should not have individuals. If Star Trek: First Contact taught us anything, it's that individuals ruin your bad-ass "hive" race. I'm lookin' at you Borg Queen. :mad:

For instance, there shouldn't be only one Swarmlord (at a time). A Swarmlord should be a very rare genus of Hive Tyrant, only spawned when necessity demands due to the time and resources the Hive Mind must expend. It can still be a unique character, with only one allowed per detachment, sure, but not the only one in the damned galaxy.

I'd also like to see some focus on the battles the Tyranids actually won, systems consumed, etc. The 5th Edition codex described loss after loss after loss. Yes, at great cost, blah blah, but it's kinda demoralizing to have your favorite army ultimately loose every war in their own damned codex.

Rules side, I'd love for the Tyranids to be able to field a mostly assault heavy army and still be competitive. The Tyranids should have numerous ways to get into assault faster and more reliably. Tyranids are known as the quintessential CC army, but ironically we haven't been CC heavy (and competitive) for years now. I want my Carnifexes to be at their best flipping over tanks and crushing units in a tide of muscle and chitin. Not waddling up the table as dakka platforms.

Charistoph
14-11-2013, 15:15
Striking from purchased terrain would be an awesome mechanic!

Daemons would have even more reason than 'Nids to have this.

As for the 'Nid Special Character thing, I look at it one of two ways, it already is as Megad00mer said, that they are just a very very rare and difficult race of the species to create (Swarmlord), so much so that only one or one brood of it is able to be created to affect the scale of battle 40K and Apocalypse deals with. The other is that there was an even more difficult to produce random mutation that made a super powerful version (Old One Eye, for example). All of that's fluff, and so not very hard to change.

harlekin
14-11-2013, 16:14
For me it's necessary to make the big(ha) losers of the current 'Dex viable again. There are plenty of fandexes flying around in the web, This one (http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?356586-Tyranid-Fandex-Comments-Criticism-wanted!) is thought through pretty much, I'd say, though I personally don't agree with everything.

In general I'D love to see if the customability would come back. I personally don't have any experience with Dexes before the 4th edition one, but the continuum between the „many gadgets“-surprise and the „many Buddies“-surprise of our bugs was totally fascinating for me.

Bring the Biomorphs back^^, (ok some of them you just had on specific units like thornback on Fexes etc. and may stay there and comparable units).

Like many of you said before, MCs need to be cheaper in general, upgrading them to LR–cost if one likes it – ok, but wihtout having any gaming-expereince in our current Edition, the carnifex for instance was soo much weaker than before it was unnecessarilly (from abance point of view... marketing is something entirely different).

EW is a thing I'd stay away from, a elast for the masses. Actually there was never „true“ EW on Nids, because immunity against ID-ing referred to S>/=2(T). In terms of Warriors, maybe the different subspecies I'd go with with T5 2W, because S10 weapons are quite rare, so ID should be not to much of problem, if the opponent achieves it, congrats! life's much easier. BS/LW warriors with toxin sacs would be scary opponents, if you can't blow them of by the mandatory Str8/ –pieplate weapon, Shooting them is probably more comfortable then dealing with them in cc.

Again, like many of you said, T5 would go with models of similar (DE-gorilla beast, ogryns etc) size, I'm not sure about the distribution of Wounds, but Warriors could be resilient through their general bodystructure, not by being „beefy“. 2W would be okay i guess.

Prime variants could have the opportunity to buy more „sustain“, be it T/W/Save. But the critters „naked“ stats matter ofc. Speaking of Alpha variants, at least for the warrior variants – Raveners and Lictors included – seem cool.

Those are my „2 cents“ so far, I recommend a look in the already mentioned fandex (http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?356586-Tyranid-Fandex-Comments-Criticism-wanted!).

nosebiter
14-11-2013, 17:28
A lot of what I want for the Tyranids is on the fluff side of things. I would love for Tyranid Special Characters to stop being "individuals" and start being explicitly referred to as rare and specialist sub species. The Tyranids should not have individuals. If Star Trek: First Contact taught us anything, it's that individuals ruin your bad-ass "hive" race. I'm lookin' at you Borg Queen. :mad:

For instance, there shouldn't be only one Swarmlord (at a time). A Swarmlord should be a very rare genus of Hive Tyrant, only spawned when necessity demands due to the time and resources the Hive Mind must expend. It can still be a unique character, with only one allowed per detachment, sure, but not the only one in the damned galaxy.

I'd also like to see some focus on the battles the Tyranids actually won, systems consumed, etc. The 5th Edition codex described loss after loss after loss. Yes, at great cost, blah blah, but it's kinda demoralizing to have your favorite army ultimately loose every war in their own damned codex.

Rules side, I'd love for the Tyranids to be able to field a mostly assault heavy army and still be competitive. The Tyranids should have numerous ways to get into assault faster and more reliably. Tyranids are known as the quintessential CC army, but ironically we haven't been CC heavy (and competitive) for years now. I want my Carnifexes to be at their best flipping over tanks and crushing units in a tide of muscle and chitin. Not waddling up the table as dakka platforms.

Like times a million :-)

El_Machinae
14-11-2013, 17:45
Actually, I'm the opposite. I don't want to get into cc quickly. I want more options to make an inevitable wave that will get into cc.

Camman1984
14-11-2013, 18:06
If they give EW back to synapse it would be a mistake and a bit silly. If i hit a nid warrior with a demolisher shell, it should explode, why would being a psychic node prevent that? Higher toughness creatures get a partial immunity just because of the higher doubling required which is fair.

Ruination Drinker
14-11-2013, 18:36
If they give EW back to synapse it would be a mistake and a bit silly. If i hit a nid warrior with a demolisher shell, it should explode, why would being a psychic node prevent that? Higher toughness creatures get a partial immunity just because of the higher doubling required which is fair.

I totally agree with this. The whole synapse/EW thing was the major reason that unbalanced Nids back in the day. I hope to never see it return, it was such a cop out. I could care less if they bump warriors to T5 so they don't get jibbed by rockets if they priced them properly.

Ironbone
14-11-2013, 21:05
I'd also like to see some focus on the battles the Tyranids actually won, systems consumed, etc. The 5th Edition codex described loss after loss after loss. Yes, at great cost, blah blah, but it's kinda demoralizing to have your favorite army ultimately loose every war in their own damned codex.

Well, Imperial guard fluff for sooo long time was falling into such thinking. For duration of all 2nd, 3rd and 4th, and large part of 5th editions guard oppupied positon of "boys for beating, fluffwise ( and many players utilse such logic too ) any army could trample guard into dust without even noticing. But i kinda dissagree with tyranids falling into same position. Codex fluff may not be perfect, but, at least for me, it pictures very nicely how terryfing foe nids are, what enormous forces are reqired just to stop them, not even mention winnig, and how extreme threat they are not just for Imperium, but to all races of galaxy as whole. You just feel that unless someting realy, realy big will happen, galaxy is doomed to fall, either to nids, or to chaos.

And EW synapse was one of worst features of 4th ed book, and i too definietly do not want it back :p.

wyvirn
15-11-2013, 00:06
I don't think EW synapse was truly terrible *except maybe* mixed weapon warriors. Everything T6+ was immune to ID except to force weapons and the like.

Ruination Drinker
15-11-2013, 00:40
I don't think EW synapse was truly terrible *except maybe* mixed weapon warriors. Everything T6+ was immune to ID except to force weapons and the like.

EW is redundant (sort of) on T6 creatures...but what was particularly galling about the EW Synapse rule was it was basically giving a whole codex immunity to Instant Death as a Chapter Tactic...and that kind of beard is only reserved for Marines!!

Ironbone
15-11-2013, 00:51
I don't think EW synapse was truly terrible *except maybe* mixed weapon warriors. Everything T6+ was immune to ID except to force weapons and the like.
It kinda was. In 4th ed, Force weapons were one of most popular ways of dealing with MC, and every army fielded 2, max 3 monsters. Nids on the other hand can field up to 8. Eight big guys,all immue to one of few reliable ways of killing them. And by my memory, this "fatman circus", or "nidzilla" army were very popular back then :p.

Also don't forget how underpriced were MC in 4th ed nids. Tyrant costed 75 pts, fex -65 pts. Upgrades of course cost some pts, but players showed that is easy to build usable carnifex with less than cap 115 pts requred to field them as elite in addiction to HS.

GW did actually right thing increasing cost of MC in 5th ed dex. Ofc, with their typical costing accuracy of drunken musketo gunner, they pushed cost way too far :shifty:.

Carnage
15-11-2013, 01:59
Also don't forget how underpriced were MC in 4th ed nids. Tyrant costed 75 pts, fex -65 pts. Upgrades of course cost some pts, but players showed that is easy to build usable carnifex with less than cap 115 pts requred to field them as elite in addiction to HS.

GW did actually right thing increasing cost of MC in 5th ed dex. Ofc, with their typical costing accuracy of drunken musketo gunner, they pushed cost way too far :shifty:.

I have no idea how you can say that with a straight face. I don't think making carnifexes elite choices was exactly a stellar idea, but their points costs were just about perfect by TODAY's standards.

T6, W3 3+ save, 50pt Tomb spyders that spawn 15 point scarab swarms.
T6, W4 2+/5++ save, A3, S10 force weapon attacks at I4 for 130pt. With access to torrent weapons, a badass teleporter and/or a weapon that allows rerolls to all hit AND wound rolls.
T8 W6 3+ save, A4, S10, 2 S10 long range AP2 weapons AND a jetpack for 240 points in a wraithknight.
T6, W5 2+ save, 5+ invul with an upgunned battlecannon for 180(?) points in a riptide.
Demon Prince's damage output with a black mace is off the hook compared to tyranid ANYTHING.

Tyranids points per wound and damage per point on monstrous creatures is off by something like 25-50%

Camman1984
15-11-2013, 09:05
Definately agree the nid MC are way overcosted, especially with their lack of 2+ access. That makes a huge difference for the riptide and dreadknight as they can ignore most power weapons, krak equivalents and are more durable vs massed fire.

Although if they use either them units as templates for MC i will cry as will lots of other people.

Ironbone
15-11-2013, 11:56
I have no idea how you can say that with a straight face. I don't think making carnifexes elite choices was exactly a stellar idea, but their points costs were just about perfect by TODAY's standards.
Exactly, by today standards :). And today we have tons of stuff, special and core rules, wargear that do not exist back then, wich many of them greatly help dealing with MC. Things like random charge, majority of instat-killing ranged and close combat weapons ( to wich, thanks to synapse nids were immue anyway ), T debuffs, to name but few, all do not exist back then. And vast majority of other armies also are chaper, and can field more models than in past.

Yes, today 4th ed prices probably wouldn't be that broken, compared to what other armies can field. But back then during codex realese in 5th, paying 100-150 pts for MC with many upgrades was kind of stupidly low.

Dono, maybe you just missed part where I say that GW maybe move in right direction, but waaay too far :) ?

Vhalyar
15-11-2013, 14:12
Lessons can be learned from Acanthrites, Grotesques, Word Bearer Gal Vorbak, chaos spawn, plague drones and the like in that T5 W3 with either a 3+ normal or 5+ invul isn't game breaking.....outside the troop slot. Frankly I think your base warriors have to move back to elite/HQ to have any chance of being good, other wise they will be a mediocre unit for the foreseeable future.

Wraithguards are T6 3+ troops. I don't see any issues with a base T5 W2 4+ troop. Unlike the Wraithguards they can still be insta-gibbed by S10 and force weapons.

Camman1984
15-11-2013, 14:26
Dont wraithguard only have 1 wound? So they are instant killed by S10 and force weapons (and any other weapons). Also to become troops takes a HQ 'tax' as well doesnt it? So they arent really comparable.

Vhalyar
15-11-2013, 15:30
Dont wraithguard only have 1 wound? So they are instant killed by S10 and force weapons (and any other weapons). Also to become troops takes a HQ 'tax' as well doesnt it? So they arent really comparable.

They have only one wound, exactly :)
So when force weapons and S10 come into play, they lose that one wound. Unlike Warriors, who pay for the extra wound and lose both.

Ruination Drinker
15-11-2013, 19:43
I have it. Synapse can give 5+ FNP.

Carnage
15-11-2013, 20:03
I have it. Synapse can give 5+ FNP.

I've been playing with the idea of synapse giving +1 toughness actually. Stops instant death on warriors until you hit S10, makes the little guys pretty tough when supported, mitigates damage to genestealers and makes the monstrous creatures a bit tougher.

Ruination Drinker
15-11-2013, 20:15
I've been playing with the idea of synapse giving +1 toughness actually. Stops instant death on warriors until you hit S10, makes the little guys pretty tough when supported, mitigates damage to genestealers and makes the monstrous creatures a bit tougher.

That's probably a better solution since it doesn't give the whole codex a blanket save against Str 6. I'll save that mechanic for the new Kustom Force Field. :evilgrin: