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Brother No'vle
10-11-2013, 18:46
I've been writing an army list for my new Vampire Counts army today, and was wondering about the best way to use skeleton warriors. Would it be worth deploying them in a horde of 30-40 skellies for the extra attacks, or just simply in units of twenty? Replies would be very much appreciated.

Gloryseeker
10-11-2013, 18:57
I use a unit of ~46 with 4 characters in it. Going horde just means more will die leading you to loose your unit. Go deep, I go 10 deep to minimise the attacks back and to break steadfast.

Kayosiv
10-11-2013, 19:16
Neither. Units of 20 are semi-useless and hordes just die because their frontage is too large and the attacks they gain are puny. Get units of 30-50 and run them 5 wide. Use them to break steadfast and grind down heavy hitting but low defense options.

NurglesRot
10-11-2013, 22:08
The only time I use them in Horde formation is when I go big and take massive units of 60-70 skeletons. There's enough there to take the hits and the dish out their full compliment of attacks making back some of the wounds.

I do play a necro heavy caster list so raising them is no problem for me though which helps off-set the combat res. that can quickly grind down the unit.

Wesser
11-11-2013, 08:41
I run a low-magic list almost every time.

Take an 80-strong unit with screaming banner. It has both offensive and tarpit potential and is great point denial.

Vipoid
11-11-2013, 12:57
I run a low-magic list almost every time.

Take an 80-strong unit with screaming banner. It has both offensive and tarpit potential and is great point denial.

I've tried something along these lines quite a few times - if only because putting down that many skeletons makes me smile.

However, it rarely works out well. The screaming banner might as well be a toffee apple for all the good it does, and 80 skeletons looks like a lot... until you see the negative combat resolution such a unit generates.

datalink7
12-11-2013, 03:19
The best way to deploy Skeleton Warriors is on the shelve (unfortunately, as I love them). Zombies simply tarpit better and Ghouls do more damage (point for point).

The only possible exception to this is if you are running a wraith-wall list, and want to give a magic banner to the wraiths (and some spear attacks).

However, if you are going to run them anyway because you like them aesthetically (which I fully endorse), 5 wide is the way to do it. The damage upgrade potential from a horde formation won't outweigh the additional damage you will take in return from having a wide frontage.

Wesser
12-11-2013, 09:45
The best way to deploy Skeleton Warriors is on the shelve (unfortunately, as I love them). Zombies simply tarpit better and Ghouls do more damage (point for point).

The only possible exception to this is if you are running a wraith-wall list, and want to give a magic banner to the wraiths (and some spear attacks).

However, if you are going to run them anyway because you like them aesthetically (which I fully endorse), 5 wide is the way to do it. The damage upgrade potential from a horde formation won't outweigh the additional damage you will take in return from having a wide frontage.

Once again we're back to opinion rather than fact.

Ghouls don't have anymore attacks than skeletons with spears, and I find it to be a very questionable claim that WS3 and poisoned attacks is worth 5 points per model.

Ultimately Ghouls and Skeletons won't ever be any kind of combat unit, which is why I pick skeletons. Skeletons can tarpit and pin down enemies for my proper combat units to smash and unlike zombies they dont give away quite as much CR so as to make supporting them a liability

Sexiest_hero
12-11-2013, 11:01
100 skeles. Don't horde till you think you can finish a unit off. 8th has reforms and combat reforms, you should try them :)

liddan
12-11-2013, 14:44
Ghouls don't have anymore attacks than skeletons with spears, and I find it to be a very questionable claim that WS3 and poisoned attacks is worth 5 points per model.

That depends on how many models you have left, if you're flanked or reared, if you charged etc so it's not true in alot of scenarios.


Skeletons can tarpit and pin down enemies for my proper combat units to smash and unlike zombies they dont give away quite as much CR so as to make supporting them a liability

Only difference is against WS2 units and with skeleton's I2 you will probably go last almost always anyway. I think it's a very slim difference for 2 extra pts on a 3 pt unit. Also zombies are easier to raise. The difference is rather slim so I would probably recommend using some of each just to get some variation unless you're dead set on min/maxing your army list.

datalink7
12-11-2013, 16:58
Once again we're back to opinion rather than fact.

Ghouls don't have anymore attacks than skeletons with spears, and I find it to be a very questionable claim that WS3 and poisoned attacks is worth 5 points per model.

Ultimately Ghouls and Skeletons won't ever be any kind of combat unit, which is why I pick skeletons. Skeletons can tarpit and pin down enemies for my proper combat units to smash and unlike zombies they dont give away quite as much CR so as to make supporting them a liability

Ghouls also have Toughness 4 and Initiative 3.

Poison is hugely useful, particularly with Van Hels to get rerolls to hit (getting more poisons). This allows Ghouls to engage monsters and actually take them down. Skeletons have to get extremely lucky to take anything down. Ghouls are great at doing damage to any number of things, such as Ogres who don't have a lot of Armor. A unit of Ogres will have to think about charging a horde of ghouls in terms of deciding if the damage is worth it. A horde of skeletons? Not at all.

If the enemy fails a fear test, they hit Ghouls on 5+. Skeletons still get hit on 4+.

Ghouls have a number of advantages over skeletons in the damage dealing department, and even the tarpitting department. But Skeletons don't have enough of an advantage over Zombies in the tarpitting department to justify their cost.

Wesser
12-11-2013, 21:47
Ghouls also have Toughness 4 and Initiative 3.

Poison is hugely useful, particularly with Van Hels to get rerolls to hit (getting more poisons). This allows Ghouls to engage monsters and actually take them down. Skeletons have to get extremely lucky to take anything down. Ghouls are great at doing damage to any number of things, such as Ogres who don't have a lot of Armor. A unit of Ogres will have to think about charging a horde of ghouls in terms of deciding if the damage is worth it. A horde of skeletons? Not at all.

If the enemy fails a fear test, they hit Ghouls on 5+. Skeletons still get hit on 4+.

Ghouls have a number of advantages over skeletons in the damage dealing department, and even the tarpitting department. But Skeletons don't have enough of an advantage over Zombies in the tarpitting department to justify their cost.

You make it sound as if and Ogre player wouldnt take advantage of his greater speed to just let his Mournfangs roll over those ghouls? Not saying posion ain't good, but ghouls are 10 fricking points for a unit that..whatever you say... still can't fight...at all. And to cap it off Ghouls are big points... and easy points... What's not for your opponent to like?

They ain't going to be fighting monsters, but they are going to fighting heavy cavalry that doesn't wanna fight the tarpits or the KB/High Str units the rest of the army consist off.

Summarizing:

Zombies = Tarpit the opponent to hell, but achieve nothing more than that
Skeletons = Hopefully tarpit long enough for your proper units to settle matters
Ghouls = Hope against hope that your opponent feeds them something they can damage

Not really a lot between the three in efficiency, and personally it was the age of the zombie kit and the awfulness of the ghoul kit that made the choice for me.

Stick with your ghouls if that Works for you. In a magic heavy, infantry based list there's prolly a good case for them (well for VC core), but that's really for another thread