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LunarLizard
10-11-2013, 19:00
So we normally play 600 points but I have lost every game so far with my rat men! :cries: They always end up loosing their LD tests and fleeing.
so I am trying this 700 point army, they will either face vampire counts, empire or Lizardmen.

Sorry if I don't have the format just right.


Warlock Engineer (1@ 95 pts)
1 Warlock Engineer
1 Doomrocket


Chieftain (1 @ 80 pts)
1 Chieftain (Battle Standard Bearer)
1 Enchanted Shield


Clanrats (21 @ 167 pts)
20 Clanrats (Musician; Standard Bearer Std; Hand Weapon; Light Armour; Shield)
1 Poisoned Wind Mortar Weapon Team


Skavenslaves (31 @64 pts)
31 Skavenslaves, (Musician ; Hand Weapon)


Rat Ogres (3 @ 113 pts)
2 Rat Ogres
1 Master Moulder


Warp Lightning Cannon (1 @ 90 pts)
1 Warp Lightning Cannon

Clanrats (20 @ 90 pts)
20 Clanrats (Hand Weapon; Light Armour; Shield)




Total Points: 699



anyone got any thought on it?

Thanks in advance

Grey Seer Kwokka
10-11-2013, 22:50
Your units are too small.

Remove some of the fancier stuff and fill out your blocks so they can survive drawn-out combats. Skaven don't win by killing, they win by attrition. I would recommend removing your Mortar and maybe your Rat Ogres to do this. Make sure you keep the cannon.

Also, magic in smaller games isn't terribly useful so I would ditch the (unlisted) magic level on the Warlock Engineer. Find the points for another Chieftain or even a Warlord as your general for that improved LD.

LunarLizard
11-11-2013, 10:21
Thanks for the tips. So I'll ditch my lvl 1 magic, it's true I don't get many good results from my magic phase but I put that down to my atrocious dice rolling.
Should I make current units bigger or another unit of rats? Also is there an advantage to blocks 5 wide ore say 10wide. Thanks for the Help

Moss
11-11-2013, 19:21
Should I make current units bigger or another unit of rats? Also is there an advantage to blocks 5 wide ore say 10wide. Thanks for the Help

The ideal frontage depends on the unit's role and how you plan for it to win combats. A unit whose role is to tar pit the enemy or to win combat through static resolution should be in ranks of five. This minimizes the number of models in combat (both on your side and on the enemy's). This also applies to units that rely on characters to deal damage (a unit of skeletons with a Vampire). The character is going to do all the killing; you only need the minimum number of models to maintain rank bonuses (extra skeletons on the front don't really add to your combat resolution).

Units you plan to kill things should have wider frontages (Stormvermin, for example). The exact number is up to you. Ten-wide obviously gives you the most attacks, but is unwieldy and expensive. Six or seven wide give you less attacks than a horde, but is less expensive and makes it easier to maintain ranks. Maintaining ranks is important not only for static combat resolution, but for breaking steadfast on your enemy.

Assume you're fighting an enemy in ranks of five with (40) Stormvermin.
Ranks of ten give you (21) attacks and (3) ranks.
Ranks of seven give you (14) attacks and (5) ranks.
Ranks of six give you (12) attacks and (6) ranks.
So, the ideal formation is dependent on the situation.

Hopefully that answers your question, or at least gives you something to think about while you figure it out for yourself.

LunarLizard
12-11-2013, 12:01
Tweaked Roster

Total Roster Cost: 707


Warlock Engineer (1#, 53 pts)
1 Warlock Engineer, 15 pts
1 Warplock Pistol, 8 pts
1 Doomrocket, 30 pts


Chieftain (1#, 95 pts)
1 Chieftain (Battle Standard Bearer), 70 pts = (base cost 45 + Battle Standard Bearer 25)
1 Enchanted Shield, 10 pts
1 Poisoned Attacks, 15 pts


Clanrats (25#, 124.5 pts)
25 Clanrats, 124.5 pts = 25 * 4.5 (base cost 4) + Musician Mus 4 + Standard Bearer Std 8


Clanrats (25#, 124.5 pts)
25 Clanrats, 124.5 pts = 25 * 4.5 (base cost 4) + Musician Mus 4 + Standard Bearer Std 8


Skavenslaves (35#, 107 pts)
35 Skavenslaves, 107 pts = 35 * 3 (base cost 2) + Musician Mus 2


Warp Lightning Cannon (1#, 90 pts)
1 Warp Lightning Cannon, 90 pts


Rat Ogres (3#, 113 pts)
2 Rat Ogres, 80 pts = 2 * 40
1 Master Moulder, 33 pts



I will be trying my clan rats with ranks of 5 wide and Slaves Ranks of 7 wide.

Looks like I may be against Dark Elves :skull: (I'm soooo Dead)

Vexare
12-11-2013, 12:26
My advice, ditch the rat ogres (2 of them just dosnt cut it in my opinion) and a) get more bodies in your blocks, or b) get another cannon, or a weaponteam.. Second, I only bring clan rats if I want them as bunkers, or I'm gonna take weapon teams, otherwise I go slave blocks over clan blocks anyday..

My take on a 700 point fight would be something along the lines of 2 big blocks of slaves, a clanrat bunker, for my mandatory bsb, and a wft, and toys like the cannon for the rest... Maybe some gutterrunners, but I don't know if they will be worth it at 700 points..

3eland
12-11-2013, 12:38
I agree with Vexare - drop the rat ogres, bringing two with the master moulder upgrade in 700 points will just see them shot down before they can do anything -OR- they will break in combat. I would try to pick up another cannon or catapult with the points from the ogres. Trading in one clanrat unit for more slaves would help. If your going to be against Dark Elves, the ASF is going to hurt, you need to hit them hard with your war machines and throw slave units at them and hope you break them with combat resolution (or at least hold them in combat). Target priority is a must, especially since he will most likely be bringing a hydra. The large template from the catapult will be nice in hitting his large units and they must take a panic check if they take a wound (S2 ignore armour saves, you should most likely get a wound or two off), now although Elves have high leadership, and he will most likely be taking a BSB, it can still happen! The main thing is using the cannon to take out his Hydra, and the catapult to windle down units before they hit you in combat. The only other thing I could recommend is get some magic, plague magic vs elves is nasty, you can combo the spells with the cannon or catapult and do massive damage before they even hit your side. Also, your General is only LD 5, so you will only ever get a max LD 8 from his presence and rank bonus, sure you have the BSB there to help but it's still going to hurt when taking LD tests, just hope you get steadfast from the extra ranks!

Also, off topic, I am fairly sure you cannot list exact point costs because GW gets mad.

Good luck!

LunarLizard
12-11-2013, 13:07
Thanks for your help.
I have got rid of the Ogres. Ill pack out my rats and put in my mortar :-) That has done some serious damage in the past. I don't have a catapult.



Also, off topic, I am fairly sure you cannot list exact point costs because GW gets mad.

Is it wise for me to delete my points post? I dont know why they go mad but I wont make that mistake again. Thanks for the heads up

3eland
12-11-2013, 13:16
You can list the total point cost of the unit or character but not the exact break down of points each item is worth, so for example:

Chieftan -95
-BSB
-Poison Attacks
-Enchanted Shield

Clanrats -124.5
-Musician
-Standard Bearer


Something like that.

Also, do you have any giant rats? I have done well throwing a huge bunker of them into elves, since they attack in 3 ranks you get hit first but since Elves are t3, you hit back hard too. Usually 6 wide by 5 back brings a lot of pain.

Edit: Also, why the poisoned attacks? I think it would be a waste on the chieftain, you don't want him in a challenge and 3 possible chances of auto-wounds isn't worth the 15 IMO on a BSB. In a challenge they will still go first, reroll to hit because characters are usually init 6+ and if they are smart will have some sort of weapon that will give them a 2-3 to wound. So worst case scenario your BSB is dead before he gets to attack back, best case scenario he is left with 1 wound, the 15 points can be put elsewhere for more effect.

LunarLizard
12-11-2013, 13:20
Also, do you have any giant rats? I have done well throwing a huge bunker of them into elves, since they attack in 3 ranks you get hit first but since Elves are t3, you hit back hard too. Usually 6 wide by 5 back brings a lot of pain.

Not yet, as I got the island of blood set, but have bought a few more things also I can proxy some models it'd need be :-D

3eland
12-11-2013, 14:00
I made up two lists that I think would help nicely vs Dark Elves at 700 points (at least what I would take) using your previous list. Maybe it'll help when you finalize your own!

Chieftan -72
-BSB
-Shield

Plague Priest (You General) -102
-Extra Hand Weapon
**This guy is tougher than the Warlock and although doesn't carry a doom rocket, has access to the best magic vs Elves. Give him an extra hand weapon and he has 4 attacks (5 with frenzy), has better stats over-all over the Warlock AND is t5 with LD6. Going to be harder killing this one!

40 clanrats - 192
-Shields
-Standard Bearer
-Musician
**This is your main bunker that holds your BSB and Priest. 5 models wide by 8 back... nothing will be breaking this unit. The shields give them more armour vs Elf attacks (s3 on normal units) and the ol' sword and board parry save will come in handy**

30 slaves -60

20 slaves -40

20 slaves -40

Warp Lightning Cannon -90

Plague Claw Catapult -100 (just proxy it)

Total -698


Deploy your unit of 30 slaves 5x6 at the front, your bunker of 40 rats behind it. A unit of 20 slaves on the sides to negate flank charges and to counter charge where need be. Warp Lightning Cannon one corner, Catapult in the other. You should make a huge impact before he hits you in combat. Let the slaves get hit first, that's what they are there for, let them soak up arrows, they are worthless and sacrificial (Skaven joke there). plague magic will help windle down the elves too.

Now, if you can get access to more models I would even go as far as the following:

Chieftan -72
-BSB
-Shield

Plague Priest (You General) -102
-Extra Hand Weapon
**This guy is tougher than the Warlock and although doesn't carry a doom rocket, has access to the best magic vs Elves. Give him an extra hand weapon and he has 4 attacks (5 with frenzy), has better stats over-all over the Warlock AND is t5 with LD6. Going to be harder killing this one!

30 clanrats - 147
-Shields
-Standard Bearer
-Musician
**This is your main bunker that holds your BSB and Priest. 5 models wide by 6 back. The shields give them more armour vs Elf attacks (s3 on normal units) and the ol' sword and board parry save will come in handy**

30 slaves -60

30 slaves -60

30 slaves -60

Warp Lightning Cannon -90

Plague Claw Catapult -100 (just proxy it)

Total -691

Same as scenario above but now you have more slaves to hold your ground before your clanrats see battle. Main priority is Catapult and cannon hitting them hard as they advance, and then Plague magic!

Obviously there is multiple lists you can take depending on what models you have access to, but the biggest thing is numbers. 700 points of dark elves will most likely see a Hydra, 1-2 bunkers of crossbowmen, spearmen, a level 2 mage (or a level 1 mage and a bsb) and maybe a few special choices (1-2 repeaters maybe).

LunarLizard
12-11-2013, 14:33
I know for a fact he does NOT Have a hydra unless he proxies one in.

I have my battle tomorrow so when I get in tonight I'll have another go at tweaking my list. Then somehow write report on the battle. Thanks for the massive amount of help

3eland
12-11-2013, 14:36
Good luck! Let us know how it went and what you used!

LunarLizard
12-11-2013, 19:28
I made up two lists that I think would help nicely vs Dark Elves at 700 points (at least what I would take) using your previous list. Maybe it'll help when you finalize your own!

Chieftan -72
-BSB
-Shield

Plague Priest (You General) -102
-Extra Hand Weapon
**This guy is tougher than the Warlock and although doesn't carry a doom rocket, has access to the best magic vs Elves. Give him an extra hand weapon and he has 4 attacks (5 with frenzy), has better stats over-all over the Warlock AND is t5 with LD6. Going to be harder killing this one!

40 clanrats - 192
-Shields
-Standard Bearer
-Musician
**This is your main bunker that holds your BSB and Priest. 5 models wide by 8 back... nothing will be breaking this unit. The shields give them more armour vs Elf attacks (s3 on normal units) and the ol' sword and board parry save will come in handy**

30 slaves -60

20 slaves -40

20 slaves -40

Warp Lightning Cannon -90

Plague Claw Catapult -100 (just proxy it)

Total -698


Deploy your unit of 30 slaves 5x6 at the front, your bunker of 40 rats behind it. A unit of 20 slaves on the sides to negate flank charges and to counter charge where need be. Warp Lightning Cannon one corner, Catapult in the other. You should make a huge impact before he hits you in combat. Let the slaves get hit first, that's what they are there for, let them soak up arrows, they are worthless and sacrificial (Skaven joke there). plague magic will help windle down the elves too.

Now, if you can get access to more models I would even go as far as the following:

Chieftan -72
-BSB
-Shield

Plague Priest (You General) -102
-Extra Hand Weapon
**This guy is tougher than the Warlock and although doesn't carry a doom rocket, has access to the best magic vs Elves. Give him an extra hand weapon and he has 4 attacks (5 with frenzy), has better stats over-all over the Warlock AND is t5 with LD6. Going to be harder killing this one!

30 clanrats - 147
-Shields
-Standard Bearer
-Musician
**This is your main bunker that holds your BSB and Priest. 5 models wide by 6 back. The shields give them more armour vs Elf attacks (s3 on normal units) and the ol' sword and board parry save will come in handy**

30 slaves -60

30 slaves -60

30 slaves -60

Warp Lightning Cannon -90

Plague Claw Catapult -100 (just proxy it)

Total -691

Same as scenario above but now you have more slaves to hold your ground before your clanrats see battle. Main priority is Catapult and cannon hitting them hard as they advance, and then Plague magic!

Obviously there is multiple lists you can take depending on what models you have access to, but the biggest thing is numbers. 700 points of dark elves will most likely see a Hydra, 1-2 bunkers of crossbowmen, spearmen, a level 2 mage (or a level 1 mage and a bsb) and maybe a few special choices (1-2 repeaters maybe).


Unfortunately I cant have the Canon & catapult. I made my roster but the canon and Catapult is 190 points which means I'd have to make it a 760 point army, which isn't going to happen so I can have up 175points of rare.

3eland
12-11-2013, 19:51
Oh yes, /facepalm, I tallied in the heroes but forgot the rares ha ha.

If you drop the catapult you can take a poisoned wind mortar attachment to your clan rats and have a mini catapult. and then still have 35 points left over to put into clanrats or slaves. Or you can try 5 gutter runners with poison attacks and slings for 90 points. Let them come in from the back of the table and take out any repeaters he may have.

Same goes with dropping the cannon, can pick up the wind mortar or the 5 gutter runners.

Good luck!