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Ruination Drinker
11-11-2013, 05:43
Let's face it. Orks are woefully behind the times when it comes to psychic ability. So what's the fix for this? Shouldn't they be a little better since their fluff kinda points them out as naturally psychic anyway?

What would make more sense for them? Should they have regular psychers that can choose off of the normal ability charts? Should they get their own abilities that no other codex can have? Maybe both?

And how about these abilities? Most ork psy powers are kinda stupid and backfire 1/3 of the time. Anything that unreliable is considered non-competitive and wont ever see action in tournaments. Should their abilites continue to be random silliness?

I'm hoping that they just drop the lame spin the wheel kind of psycher that orks traditionally have and that they get real, reliable psychers in their place. Either that, or that they get an army wide pschic null ability. If they can't have good spell caster then I hope they can at least get some good shut down in place of it.

insectum7
11-11-2013, 07:08
It'd be great if they got some of the older powers back, like Da Krunch, and Foot of Gork.

I'd love it even more if they got something real nasty like an Ork version of Jaws, just for kicks.

Somehow they ought to figure out reincorperating Minderz too, mostly because I love the old model of the two Minders holding a Warphead like a cannon.

Scammel
11-11-2013, 07:21
Link DtW to unit sizes. Link Psy Mastery and/or Warp Charge points to unit sizes too. 'Real', reliable psykers sounds quite the departure from what a Wyrdboy should be, I think it's just a case of making sure the entirety of the table (bar the first result) is something you'd want to use at any given time, perhaps by making them dual powers ala Eldar.

Born Again
11-11-2013, 07:24
Of course it's as good as given that when they get their next codex update, they'll get their own discipline. Who knows, they could even get 2 - Discipline of Gork, and Discipline of Mork, with one being more 'itty, and the other being more kunnin'. Obviously seeing the return of classic powers like Da Krunch would be well-received I'm sure, Power Vomit seems like an obvious Primaris power.
Maybe as their unique thing, to show how ork Waaagh! energy works, instead of ork psykers generating force points based on their mastery level, they generate them based on the number of orks in their unit - say, 1 point for 5 orks, or something. If he has more than double his mastery level in left over force points at the end of the turn, he suffers an 'eadbang.

Rogue Star
11-11-2013, 07:44
Shouldn't they be a little better since their fluff kinda points them out as naturally psychic anyway?

Ork Wyrdboy power levels directly related to how many other Orks are around them, in the background. All Orks are psykers, the Wyrdboy is just, unfortunately for him, absorbing it all and then has to either unleash it or well... explode.


And how about these abilities? Most ork psy powers are kinda stupid and backfire 1/3 of the time. Anything that unreliable is considered non-competitive and wont ever see action in tournaments. Should their abilites continue to be random silliness?

I'm hoping that they just drop the lame spin the wheel kind of psycher that orks traditionally have and that they get real, reliable psychers in their place.

Nothing about Ork psykers is reliable. The Wyrdboy, unless they changed the background, actively doesn't like being used in this manner, nor wants his head to explode, and so will be trying to creep away at the nearest opportunity. Even if he doesn't, that's a fair chance his head will explode. I'd be happy with some kind of mechanic like this.

Chem-Dog
11-11-2013, 10:40
For simplicity sake I'd give all Ork Psychic powers either several different power levels (similar to Boosted spells in WHFB) and have Warp Charge generated by proximity to Mobs say at a rate of about 1 point for each full 5 in a mob, discounting Orks who have gone to ground, are pinned or are falling back). The higher levels of power would incur some kind of scaling difficulty modifier to make them actually more difficult to get off (perhaps +1 level would require re-rolling 3's and 4's on the Ld test, +2 level would require re-rolling any dice that's not a 1 or a 6).

To add a bit of jeopardy (and patented Orky randomness) I'd have unspent charge potentially causing damage to the Weirdboy and possibly anyone standing close by at the end of a turn as the energy tries to earth itself through the Weirdboy and any Mob he's with (and any enemies silly enough to stay near him) with increasing lethality the more charge is remaining.

Felwether
11-11-2013, 10:42
Let's face it. Orks are woefully behind the times when it comes to psychic ability. So what's the fix for this? Shouldn't they be a little better since their fluff kinda points them out as naturally psychic anyway?

What would make more sense for them? Should they have regular psychers that can choose off of the normal ability charts? Should they get their own abilities that no other codex can have? Maybe both?

And how about these abilities? Most ork psy powers are kinda stupid and backfire 1/3 of the time. Anything that unreliable is considered non-competitive and wont ever see action in tournaments. Should their abilites continue to be random silliness?

I'm hoping that they just drop the lame spin the wheel kind of psycher that orks traditionally have and that they get real, reliable psychers in their place. Either that, or that they get an army wide pschic null ability. If they can't have good spell caster then I hope they can at least get some good shut down in place of it.

This doesn't sound very Orky... Wait a minute, you're not an Ork at all!

Polaria
11-11-2013, 11:30
Either that, or that they get an army wide pschic null ability. If they can't have good spell caster then I hope they can at least get some good shut down in place of it.

This won't happen. If Necrons did not get army-wide psychic null (which their fluff says they have) the Orks certainly won't get army-wide psychic null (which their fluff says they don't have).

I think Orks will get psychic power discipline of their own and can use only that one. Except maybe they don't have Primaris Power so they randomize the powers always. 'cause they are Orks.

Denny
11-11-2013, 12:08
I'm hoping that they just drop the lame spin the wheel kind of psycher that orks traditionally have and that they get real, reliable psychers in their place. Either that, or that they get an army wide pschic null ability. If they can't have good spell caster then I hope they can at least get some good shut down in place of it.

Hate this idea. Orks should not be reliable, especially weirdboyz who have a tendancy to explode when they get overexcited.

Ork powers should be very powerful, brutal and unsubtle. Massive blasts of energy that can easily destroy an entire squad.
(Not always an enemy squad of course, but that's the way greenskins roll!)

nosebiter
11-11-2013, 12:11
The orks will get a standard set of powers, som with random effects.

The whole notion that because a few facets of the ork army is random that the effects of said power/weapon should be OP is daft. It may be fun for the ork player, but really bad for everyone else who has to suffer an ork player with above average luck blowing your whole army up in a single turn. The deffguns are bad enough.

Dwane Diblie
11-11-2013, 12:34
I am hoping for something along the lines of the Wierdboy having all 7 powers all the time. Warp Charge is generated by Ork units on the table. Wierdboy must spend all Warp Charge every turn. If the Wierdboy is with minders then he can choose which powers to cast and who at. If not then shuffle the power deck and draw the top power and resolve it against the closest enemy unit. Continue this until there is no Warp Charge remaining or the deck runs out. If the Wierdboy runs out of powers to cast and has Warp Charge remaining then it still continues to roll psychic tests for each remaining Warp Charge though nothing more spectacular than flashing lights results, but it can still Perils of the Warp.

I also like the idea of a Gork deck and a Mork deck.

aim
11-11-2013, 12:54
And how about these abilities? Most ork psy powers are kinda stupid and backfire 1/3 of the time. Anything that unreliable is considered non-competitive and wont ever see action in tournaments. Should their abilites continue to be random silliness?


I know what you mean man. The Nova Reactor needs to be more reliable or we will never see any RipTides in tournament lists....

Denny
11-11-2013, 13:10
The whole notion that because a few facets of the ork army is random that the effects of said power/weapon should be OP is daft.


So you think the ork powers should be the same power level as the other factions, but also less reliable? :eyebrows:

Isn't this unfair on the Orks?

There has to balance; if something it riskier (less likely to work, or might even backfire) then it needs to be more effective when it does work.

It shouldn't be OP, but unreliable has to be (potentially) more powerful than reliable or much cheaper.

MiyamatoMusashi
11-11-2013, 13:17
Hate this idea. Orks should not be reliable, especially weirdboyz who have a tendancy to explode when they get overexcited.

Completely agreed.


Massive blasts of energy that can easily destroy an entire squad.
(Not always an enemy squad of course, but that's the way greenskins roll!)

No. No, no, no. That way lies the madness of 6th Ed Warhammer Skaven, where the game was always decided by how many 1s the Skaven player rolled. "Yeah, I know I didn't roll any 1s today so I won easily, but on another day I might have rolled nothing but 1s and you'd have won easily, so it's fair!" Yeah, well, I'd like my input into the game to have some influence as well, thanks, not just what dice you roll.

Ork Weirdboyz and their psychic powers should indeed be entertainingly unpredictable and unreliable (they don't even understand what they're doing or how they're doing it, they're hardly Farseers!), but without being (a) meaningless randomness or (b) devastating... to one side or the other. I quite like some of the results on the current table (teleporting the Weirdboy and his squad is almost always hilarious); it's just that not all of them are that interesting, and (maybe apart from the teleport one) not quite effective enough for the points cost - and the loss of an HQ FOC slot that could be used for a Warboss or Mek with KFF.

For simplicity though, I would speculate that the next book will treat them exactly like other psychic powers for other armies; perhaps without the ability to swap them for a common power, in a nod at their lack of control. It's either that, or a table like there is now (GW do seem to think players love rolling on tables, nowadays). The more complex suggestions, like unspent charge points making the Weirdboy's head explode, start to get needlessly complex and are too easily forgotten during the game, so I'd guess they're unlikely (which isn't to say they're bad ideas necessarily, just not the way the game is going).

Denny
11-11-2013, 14:14
That way lies the madness of 6th Ed Warhammer Skaven, where the game was always decided by how many 1s the Skaven player rolled.

I loved that book. :)

There is balance to be stuck, but I do think ork powers need a greater potential damage output, otherwise what is the trade-off for being less reliable?

(Unless they are cheaper, but then you can simply buy more of them which, oddly enough, makes them more reliable and powerful)

I’m not suggesting ‘I pass my psychic test and you die’ but an element of ‘If I roll a double 6 for damage the power is totally unstoppably awesome super death incarnate . . . but if I roll a double 1 my head explodes’.

I get that some people dislike chance deciding the outcome of games, but some of us enjoy it.
We should be catered for too, right? 

nosebiter
11-11-2013, 14:26
So you think the ork powers should be the same power level as the other factions, but also less reliable? :eyebrows:

Isn't this unfair on the Orks?

There has to balance; if something it riskier (less likely to work, or might even backfire) then it needs to be more effective when it does work.

It shouldn't be OP, but unreliable has to be (potentially) more powerful than reliable or much cheaper.

We agree i think. It is ok for a unreliable ability to be potentially better if you are lucky. But not by a huuuge margin as GW did with the 6th ed skaven army.

If GW keeps an eye on the S of potential powers/weapons, or the range of said powers/weapons, we will be ok. But if we end up with loooong range, high str, random shot volume power/weapons all over the place, it will fall appart. They need to either moderate the S or the range.

nosebiter
11-11-2013, 14:28
I loved that book. :)

There is balance to be stuck, but I do think ork powers need a greater potential damage output, otherwise what is the trade-off for being less reliable?

(Unless they are cheaper, but then you can simply buy more of them which, oddly enough, makes them more reliable and powerful)

I’m not suggesting ‘I pass my psychic test and you die’ but an element of ‘If I roll a double 6 for damage the power is totally unstoppably awesome super death incarnate . . . but if I roll a double 1 my head explodes’.

I get that some people dislike chance deciding the outcome of games, but some of us enjoy it.
We should be catered for too, right? 

There is a middel ground.

it isnt fun for anyone if you destroy half the opponents army witth one power, cause you got lucky :-)

MiyamatoMusashi
11-11-2013, 14:42
There is balance to be stuck, but I do think ork powers need a greater potential damage output, otherwise what is the trade-off for being less reliable? [...]

I get that some people dislike chance deciding the outcome of games, but some of us enjoy it.
We should be catered for too, right? 

Sure, absolutely. Unpredictability is a key part of some armies' character, and while I'm usually a player who prefers reliability (not to the extent of being nothing but a frustrated Chess player, but most of my tactics involve trying to limit what can go wrong), I do play Orks and I do want them to be unpredictable.

Unpredictability is hard to write rules for... but IMO the key isn't to make them "sometimes good, sometimes bad" but "often different". No matter how much you try to tell someone that rolling a double 6 only happens once every 36 throws, if you've just rolled a double 6 and automatically won the game as a result, they won't like it. In fact, even if you rolled a double 1 instead and thus automatically lost the game, it's still not much of a game if it only comes down to that dice roll.

So I disagree that the damage output needs to be potentially greater, to compensate for the time it sucks. When it's high, your opponent will be annoyed, and when it's low, you might as well not have bothered. I'd actually propose the current Weirdboy table as an example of doing it right (notwithstanding my general dislike of looking up results on tables). Oh, so I get to teleport my Weirdboy and his mob this turn? That's cool! Not game-breaking, but fun. Next turn - no teleport, this time my Weirdboy's got himself a psychic gun. Sweet, let's shoot something! Neither of those results are (by necessity) better or worse, but they are different - the Ork player gets to have the fun of watching his Weirdboy do crazy Oddboy stuff, and gets to make tactical choices about how to react to it; but the opponent never feels like he's been beaten by the dice. (Even teleporting, which is often the result you want most, is limited because although it can get you onto an objective or into a position to shoot something you otherwise couldn't; you still can't assault as well, so it's sometimes less effective than just moving, shooting and assaulting with the mob).

What I'm saying is, "sometimes amazing and sometimes awful" might on average work out the same as "always normal", but to the player on the receiving end of the "amazing" result, it's scant consolation, and feels unfair. A better approach is "fun but normal option 1, fun but normal option 2, or fun but normal option 3" etc. It's still unpredictable, it still gives the Ork player fun stuff to do, but without the localised imbalance that pisses people off.


‘If I roll a double 6 for damage the power is totally unstoppably awesome super death incarnate . . . but if I roll a double 1 my head explodes’.

Specifically on this, I know you were only offering it as a generalised guideline not a specific rule, but: the "head explodes" result is only ever going to harm, say, up to 100 points of the Ork army (Weirdboyz will never cost more than that, and will probably cost rather less). But the "death incarnate" result will probably do rather more damage than that. It's hard to convince people of the fairness of that.

Equally, even if you make the "head explodes" result worse (say it puts a blast marker over the Weirdboy), it is easily mitigated by the Ork player not joining the Weirdboy to a unit, or ensuring the other members of the unit are more than a blast marker away. This is often seen in Warhammer - wizards can Miscast, but they're only ever either alone or (more commonly nowadays) on the corner of units made up of very cheap models, so even if they miscast and explode, it doesn't really matter. So you end up having to make the bad result more extreme than the good result, because the good result is always good and the bad result can be mitigated, but then the bad result becomes so bad no-one takes the unit.

Saunders
11-11-2013, 16:06
I know what you mean man. The Nova Reactor needs to be more reliable or we will never see any RipTides in tournament lists....

10/10 Would laugh again :D

AndrewGPaul
11-11-2013, 16:21
The randomness tends to balance out over the course of a few games. One game, the Weirdboy fries half my army, the next he blows up and takes out the Warboss. Either result is entertaining. :)

There's two different kinds of Weirdboy; the "standard" one, dragged unwillingly into battle by his minderz, and the Warphead, who's gone a bit nemtal and actively enjoys zapping gitz with his brain. Room there for one cheaper but more random and one more expensive but consistent psyker.

I'd say something along the lines of powers having a variable effect based on the number of Orks within x"; The more Orks, the more powerful the effect (for example, going from a single shot to blast to large blast, or simply increasing the number or strength of shots), but the more likely the Weirdboy is to ... go wrong. Say, one Warp Charge per unit of Orks within 6", but the Ld test to cast is at -1 per Ork unit; a failed Ld test means the Weirdboy suffers damage.

Karhedron
11-11-2013, 16:30
I get that some people dislike chance deciding the outcome of games, but some of us enjoy it.
We should be catered for too, right? 

Up to a point maybe but it is easy to go too far. For me, Daemons is an example of an army where Random Wierdness was taken a little bit too far. I think most players want a unit to be worth its points without upsetting the game balance.

My suggestion is to keep it simple with a Wierdboy as a level 1 psyker and a Warphead as a level 2. 2 tables of powers for Gork (brutal) and Mork (kunnin') should be fine. If you start introducing mechanics like generating warp charges from nearby units then it becomes hard to cost properly. The Wierdboy ends up being more effective in larege games than smaller ones because he becomes a force multiplier. Plus you are bound to get some people finding ways to abuse the mechanic. I think the psychic power descriptions are sufficiently flavourful that you can create fluffy orky powers without having to invent a new mechanic to cover it.

Blinder
11-11-2013, 18:27
I like the idea of more happening when there are more Orks around (though I don't know about them just being able to stand around), so I think weirdboyz being more likely to make something happen when they're in a big mob, and especially a big mob that's getting a lot of killin' done, is good. I think Miyamoto is right about the nature of *what* happens, however, in that the effect should be none of predictable, godlike, and useless. A bit more control might be nice ("pick something you don't want to happen and it almost certainly won't" type of control), but seeing Orks move to a typical "pick some powers and use them as appropriate" system just doesn't seem as interesting, even if those powers themselves end up with variable results (especially in that case I think, as then it is more likely you'd see skaven-esque all-or-nothing randomness).

Sure, it is always nice to know what type of effect is going to happen, and the random tables are piling up, but in this case I think it's the best way to balance the potential effect of the psykers with the madcap nature of the race- a big run of luck would still be powerful, because you'd get a lot of teleporting on a turn you want to really move things around, or a lot of buffing on a turn you're hitting combat, or a lot of smelly psychic feet stomping around the battlefield... but a big run of misfortune would still give you something to work with (needed a buff but got teleport... you can use the teleport to get into a better position then).

totgeboren
11-11-2013, 20:07
I think the current Weirdboy has pretty ok rules, however he has no business whatsoever being a HQ, a HQ! What ork would look to a Weirdboy as his leader?
First of all Weirdboys are unproppa, and secondly they often tries to hide and/or run away from other orks. Does not sound like a HQ to me.
They should not take up a HQ slot, nor be eligible to lead an ork warband, no matter their rules.

Sheena Easton
11-11-2013, 20:53
Random is good for Orks.



It'd be great if they got some of the older powers back, like Da Krunch, and Foot of Gork.

Somehow they ought to figure out reincorperating Minderz too, mostly because I love the old model of the two Minders holding a Warphead like a cannon.

Pretty sure that Da Krunch was the original name for Foot Of Gork (at least it was in Fantasy). I could be wrong as the only powers I really remember using were Power Vomit, Kop Dis, Waaagh! and Brain Bursta

I loved that model. I wish I still had mine...


I think the current Weirdboy has pretty ok rules, however he has no business whatsoever being a HQ, a HQ! What ork would look to a Weirdboy as his leader?
First of all Weirdboys are unproppa, and secondly they often tries to hide and/or run away from other orks. Does not sound like a HQ to me.
They should not take up a HQ slot, nor be eligible to lead an ork warband, no matter their rules.

Yeah, the Wierdboy should at most be an Elites or HS choice - I'd prefer that one Wierdboy can be chosen as a "weapons team" type upgrade to a Boyz mob (who act as the Minderz so it can only leave if they all die, and then it runs away or hides). Warpheadz can be HQ but only if there is another different HQ choice.

Avatar_exADV
11-11-2013, 23:51
Random with average performance is bad. It just means it's fundamentally worse - the ork guy maybe gets the same performance that the Marine player gets every time. This can be offset if it's cheap enough, but not in an HQ slot, unless orks are going to get to take extra HQs. I don't mind having crap psykers if I can have them in units, or parcel them out like Wolf Guard...

I get that random with too big a variance is frustrating to the opponent, because there's that inevitable "what can I do if he got that lucky?" reaction. But if you want someone to play with units with very random effects, the effects need to be USUALLY good, or the random-effect unit is just left out of the list. Psychotroke grenades good (slightly too good), random AP Flash Gitz -terrible-.

Ruination Drinker
12-11-2013, 00:23
Random with average performance is bad. It just means it's fundamentally worse - the ork guy maybe gets the same performance that the Marine player gets every time. This can be offset if it's cheap enough, but not in an HQ slot, unless orks are going to get to take extra HQs. I don't mind having crap psykers if I can have them in units, or parcel them out like Wolf Guard...

I get that random with too big a variance is frustrating to the opponent, because there's that inevitable "what can I do if he got that lucky?" reaction. But if you want someone to play with units with very random effects, the effects need to be USUALLY good, or the random-effect unit is just left out of the list. Psychotroke grenades good (slightly too good), random AP Flash Gitz -terrible-.

Precisely this.

Average plus random equals "why bother?". I think it's unacceptable for everyone to assume that ork players should have to settle with subpar units just so they can conform to non-ork players ideas of ork fluff. Effectiveness, reliablilty, and potency should all be things that can be purchased by the ork player and should scale up in price accordingly. If I want to take a ML 1 ork psycher for laughs, he should be cheap and have little impact on my FoC; this would be mitigated by his general unreliability and ineffectiveness, he's just there for kicks. The ML 4 ork psycher (Orkimann) should be 300 points and take a full HQ slot but his abilities and effectiveness would rate top notch in other codex'es.

At this point I'm hoping that Matt Ward will write the next book and do his best Necron-Retcon on all the ork fluff that makes them out to be the Keystone Cops of the 40K universe.

KR3LL
12-11-2013, 01:08
I really don't want random. Especially where random=random bad thing + increased points cost.

I'm OK with random...and where random has negative effects....but don't make me pay a ton of points for the "benefit" if its going to hurt me. This goes for a ton of things as I see it a lot with Chaos and Orks.

Take for instance the current Wyrdboy. Naked Ork that is not cheap by ork standards, where you have to roll for perils, then you roll a random power that could hurt you (on top of the perils roll).

Forse
12-11-2013, 03:05
Precisely this.

Average plus random equals "why bother?". I think it's unacceptable for everyone to assume that ork players should have to settle with subpar units just so they can conform to non-ork players ideas of ork fluff. Effectiveness, reliablilty, and potency should all be things that can be purchased by the ork player and should scale up in price accordingly. If I want to take a ML 1 ork psycher for laughs, he should be cheap and have little impact on my FoC; this would be mitigated by his general unreliability and ineffectiveness, he's just there for kicks. The ML 4 ork psycher (Orkimann) should be 300 points and take a full HQ slot but his abilities and effectiveness would rate top notch in other codex'es.

At this point I'm hoping that Matt Ward will write the next book and do his best Necron-Retcon on all the ork fluff that makes them out to be the Keystone Cops of the 40K universe.

Well said! Also, I think lots of people miss the subtleties of ork fluff. Saying that weirdboys and orks in general don't understand their powers isn't right. I'd go so far as to say that the orks are among the most emotionally aware species in 40k. Eldar could perhaps top them if they weren't so busy burying and hiding their emotions from Slaanesh.

Ruination Drinker
12-11-2013, 03:48
Well said! Also, I think lots of people miss the subtleties of ork fluff. Saying that weirdboys and orks in general don't understand their powers isn't right. I'd go so far as to say that the orks are among the most emotionally aware species in 40k. Eldar could perhaps top them if they weren't so busy burying and hiding their emotions from Slaanesh.

I love that. Emotionally Aware is a perfect way to put it. I think it's time for the spiritual side of Ork Kulture to grow up.

Avatar_exADV
12-11-2013, 04:05
Well, it's fair to see Orks as simple - they're not all that complex. They aren't introspective. They like fighting and hurting things and winning, loud noises and high speeds and loads o' dakka.

But there has to be a transition from the fluff to the tabletop. If a unit is going to get played by anyone more than the most dedicated fluff bunny, it's got to have a role on the battlefield, and it has to be able to do that role. If the rules that are given to that unit make it unable to do that role, it doesn't show up on the tabletop - full stop.

Tankbustas are a good example. This is a unit with a well-defined role - bust tanks, natch. But the last codex gave them a poorly-worded special rule that meant that they couldn't do that role (and, to be honest, they're bloody expensive for their effectiveness even when Glory Hogs didn't come into play). It's not that I don't see why they got that rule - obviously GW was worried that people were going to use them to shoot up Marine squads and tried to give them a rule to prevent that - but at the end of the day, it didn't matter.

Weirdboyz have both problems at once. What is their role? Who the -hell- knows. With other psykers, even though they have to roll to determine which powers they have, once they have those powers you know what to do with them on the tabletop. You're not stuck trying to go into combat and hoping you'll roll Iron Arm instead of a shooting attack...

So how do you fix Weirdboyz while still leaving them delightfully orky? This is tough. It's easy to say "give them a discipline, if you can call it that, and call it a day". And that's not necessarily a terrible idea, y'know? But then what about the ol' brain-bursta? So how about this... set up each of the powers with three levels of effects (three shooting profiles, or +x where x is the level of effect, or whatever) and then have the ork player roll a d3 when using a power to determine which level. Say that you get a 3, power goes off, but ork's unit takes d3 wounds, something like that? You still get the fun of orks going splat from their own power but the ork player doesn't feel like he got boned because WITH it, he gets to open a can (and let's be honest, ork boyz are disposable...) It's random, but useable - you can know what the weirdboy CAN do, just not how good he'll be at it, so you don't have to worry about deep-striking right before a charge or rolling extra attacks when you're back with the lootas.

MiyamatoMusashi
12-11-2013, 09:36
Average plus random equals "why bother?". I think it's unacceptable for everyone to assume that ork players should have to settle with subpar units just so they can conform to non-ork players ideas of ork fluff.

Whoa, whoa, whoa (sweet child of mine). What? You've gone from "average" to "subpar" in the space of a sentence. Who said anything about Ork units being subpar? They should be as good as anything else. They don't need to be better!

Come to that, who said anything about non-Ork players' idea of Ork fluff having anything to do with it at all? I'm an Ork player, and have been since Waaagh The Orks!, and my idea of Ork fluff sounds very different to yours, so who exactly were you aiming that comment at?

Unpredictable (not 'random') behaviour is inherent in how Orks should be, but that doesn't mean that they have to be sometimes-awesome to be worth taking. Apart from anything else, if one unit can sometimes be awesome, then in an army of such units, something will be awesome every turn (the 6th Ed Skaven effect) and that just leaves the opponent wondering when they get to do anything that affects the outcome of the battle, which just isn't fun. No - Ork units should be no more powerful than anything else (someone said "if they're only as good as Marines" as if that's bad...?) but their unpredictability should leave the opponent off-balance and a skilled Ork player should be able to handle whatever craziness they come up with that turn, making plans to cope with it: "OK if my Weirdboy teleports I'll go for the objective, but if he gets a psychic shooting attack I'll take out that Dreadnought", etc. It shouldn't be "OK if my Weirdboy rolls a 6 and gets a super-psychic mega power I'll just wipe out the enemy, but if he doesn't I'll just hope my other Weirdboy gets a 6 or my Big Mek's SAG gets a double 6 or..." and you're just waiting to see which ridiculously overpowered special ability wins you the game this time ("...oh but they might roll a 1 and explode, so that's OK!").

anselminus
12-11-2013, 09:48
It is true that the ork psyker are a little outdated, but they will probably already be said to be updated with the release of the new codex. Regarding the various explosions, it would not ork if power were not random and of course sometimes dangerous for the holder of such power.

MajorWesJanson
12-11-2013, 11:38
My suggestion is to keep it simple with a Wierdboy as a level 1 psyker and a Warphead as a level 2. 2 tables of powers for Gork (brutal) and Mork (kunnin') should be fine.

Agreed. The only thing I would do besides this is replace the normal Perils of the Warp mechanic with a d6 chart of results when they roll a double 1 or double 6

AOdinn
12-11-2013, 12:44
Agreed. The only thing I would do besides this is replace the normal Perils of the Warp mechanic with a d6 chart of results when they roll a double 1 or double 6

Either that or have every power have it's own spectacular Perils of the Warp mechanic.

Denny
12-11-2013, 16:58
Apart from anything else, if one unit can sometimes be awesome, then in an army of such units, something will be awesome every turn (the 6th Ed Skaven effect) and that just leaves the opponent wondering when they get to do anything that affects the outcome of the battle, which just isn't fun. .

. . . Won't (on average) something also be really bad each turn? :shifty:
Something which a skilled player could exploit to win the battle? :)

'Yay, I got a 6 and unleashed a super power that took out those terminators . . . if only my shock attack gun hadn't just nuked my left flank . . .'

Ruination Drinker
13-11-2013, 03:04
. . . Won't (on average) something also be really bad each turn? :shifty:
Something which a skilled player could exploit to win the battle? :)

'Yay, I got a 6 and unleashed a super power that took out those terminators . . . if only my shock attack gun hadn't just nuked my left flank . . .'

Indeed.

I think the best case scenario out of all this is that 2 types of Ork psykers become available. An offensive psyker for the guys that have been playing since the "Waaagh The Orks!" days (/golfclap) and a support psyker that is less exciting but can provide some useful buffs to the army without banging his head 2-3 times a game. It would be nice...competitive even, to have a psyker that can be on the same level as other codex psykers.

If not? then I hope they just make Space Wolves BB with orks and have done with it already.

Wiseman
13-11-2013, 03:26
Couple of other solutions, if the Weirdboy Perils, then eithr the opponent counts as controlling the Psyker for the purpose of allocating a target for it, the witchfires/maledictions could make a mess of the orks own units. Or it instead casts like a Nova instead, as the power explodes out of the Weirdboy, effecting all units, friends and enemy, nearby.