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Gustav Kohn
11-11-2013, 12:01
So what happens when I charge his plague furnace unit to the flank? Who gets to fight in this pic?

181350

FatTrucker
11-11-2013, 12:11
A furnace has to remain in the centre of the unit thats pushing it, and can't make way or rank up to either side.
Way we would play it is that you're in B2B with the 2 plague monks and thats it. Normally you can only make B2B contact with a bell/furnace from the front or rear unless you've destroyed the unit pushing it.

Gustav Kohn
11-11-2013, 12:21
Yet another reason to hate skaven.

Archis
11-11-2013, 14:01
You fight across the gap

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Gustav Kohn
11-11-2013, 14:22
Can you give me a FAQ/Rulebook page and answer?

I thought that we would fight across the gap, but we weren't sure so I just charged a different unit as I didn't think it would matter.

Then he got Curse off on my unit 2 times in turn 5 & 6 to delete my unit...sucks.

Artiee
11-11-2013, 14:47
Pg 49. Incomplete ranks.

Gustav Kohn
11-11-2013, 17:01
My friend pointed this out.

Page 45 of the Skaven Army Book:

The Screaming Bell (Plague Furnace) must be deployed in a unit of Clanrats or Stormvermin (or Plague Monks). Place the Screaming Bell (Plague Furnace) at eh front of its unit, as centrally as possible.

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Page 6 of the Skaven FAQ

Q. What types of movement within their own unit can the Screaming Bell/Plague Furnace execute during a game? For example, can it move within the ranks to reach a fighting position?

A. When the unit executes any manoeuvre (other than a wheel), the Bell/Furnace is immediately moved to the centre of its front rank. If the unit is engaged in combat, the Bell/Furnace is stuck in place and cannot be moved within the ranks until the unit can manoeuvre/reform again.

FatTrucker
11-11-2013, 20:11
Not sure if fighting across the gap would apply to a bell/furnace.

Its unique in that its actually separate to the unit pushing it and can be separately targeted from the unit pushing it. I would say fighting across the gap applies to units where models could be deemed to actively engage rather than standing idle in a shortened back line. Effectively they move to the left, right or rear to engage. Furnace can't do that.

bigbiggles
11-11-2013, 22:16
Seems like 5 ranks of saurus can fight in the flanking unit.

theunwantedbeing
12-11-2013, 09:40
Not sure if fighting across the gap would apply to a bell/furnace.

Its unique in that its actually separate to the unit pushing it and can be separately targeted from the unit pushing it. I would say fighting across the gap applies to units where models could be deemed to actively engage rather than standing idle in a shortened back line. Effectively they move to the left, right or rear to engage. Furnace can't do that.

The bell isn't moving within the unit, the enemy is fighting across the gap.

In a situation where the enemy charged that same bell unit in the rear, you'de still be able to fight the clanrats pushing the bell, despite the unit being a full 3-4 base lengths away from them.
The same applies when attacking the unit to the side.

Dr_Worm_MD
12-11-2013, 16:15
But fighting "across the gap" refers specifically to rear charges and fighting in both flanks only. In this situation, there is only one side flank charge.

And the monks are being moved because the second rank of monks is incomplete. The furnace is a part of that incomplete rank as well.

Another question: Because of the odd shape of the unit (like a "T" instead of a square) could the Lizardmen General charge in such a way as to hit flank of the Furnace alone and not engage the Monks?

Here are the rules for the discussion:

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Page 49 of BRB 8th Edition:

"If a unit is fighting to its flank, the models in the incomplete rank are moved into contact with the enemy, there to fight and be fought normally. If the unit is fighting to its rear (or fighting to both flanks) some enemy models might not end up in base to base contact because of the models in the incomplete rear rank. In this specific situation, the models can fight across the gap, even if not physically in base-to-base contact. In reality, the chargers would not have stopped one step away from the enemy and would have moved in to continue the fight - treat these models as being in base to base contact."
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Page 45 of the Skaven Army Book 7th Edition:

The Screaming Bell (Plague Furnace) must be deployed in a unit of Clanrats or Stormvermin (or Plague Monks). Place the Screaming Bell (Plague Furnace) at the front of its unit, as centrally as possible.
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Page 6 of the Skaven FAQ (Current as of November 2013)

Q. What types of movement within their own unit can the Screaming Bell/Plague Furnace execute during a game? For example, can it move within the ranks to reach a fighting position?

A. When the unit executes any manoeuvre (other than a wheel), the Bell/Furnace is immediately moved to the centre of its front rank. If the unit is engaged in combat, the Bell/Furnace is stuck in place and cannot be moved within the ranks until the unit can manoeuvre/reform again.

bigbiggles
12-11-2013, 19:16
Are you sure it has to be specific? Reads a lot like examples to me. Especially when you finish off the paragraph. And if treated as examples, there is no rules problem or confusion

Dr_Worm_MD
13-11-2013, 14:40
You're probably right.

I can make a case for the letter of the law being on the side of the furnace. But I think the spirit of the law would allow for across the gap.

Gustav Kohn
13-11-2013, 18:46
Don't believe Dr Worm MD...he plays skaven and therefore is a liar! Or the picture of the OP is our battle. We just played the game differently because neither of us cared. More fun just to hang with the Dr. Worm MD.

Dr_Worm_MD
15-11-2013, 19:16
Its true. Gustav is da bomb!