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Wesser
17-11-2013, 15:21
For the laugh I had a Wood Elf Wardancer Lord rocking the Wizarding Hat yesterday.. and well he was beaten in combat and fled.

But the way we read stupidity it seems that at the start of my turn:

a) I have to take a stupidity tests even if he's fleeing

Then if he passes it I get to attempt to rally

If he fails the stupidity tests I bimble forward D6, but cannot attempt to rally nor flee further as per the stupidity rule I can't take further action...


Did we play it right? May not sound like a big deal since stupid units are immune to psychology, but it was pretty much what cost me the game, so yea...

theunwantedbeing
17-11-2013, 16:13
It's not covered in the rules, or the FAQs, so you use the most important rule which is roll off to see who gets to be right.

Luuky19
19-11-2013, 17:39
you did it correctly as special rules always top basic rules. rally/flee is a basic rule and stupidity is a special rule so what stupidity states is law. Also, and I'm not really sure about this, I think if you fail the test you stop fleeing for the moment as you only need to take an rally test when you where fleeing last round, with you werent as you where forced to make a special move, thus automatically regaining control next turn, taken you pass the stupid test again.

SanDiegoSurrealist
19-11-2013, 18:29
I would think you would refer to the "Immune to Psychology" for the Flee! which you gain for being "Stupid"
The unit would rally as normal, once the unit has successfully rallied then you would once again apply Stupidity.

Wesser
19-11-2013, 21:51
How would I rally?

ItP troops can still flee so hwo would that help? And stupidity downright says that you can take no further action (including rallying I sup?) if you fail it.

It just seems dumm to me ... but maybe that's the point?

And what if a stupid unit pursues an enemy off the board? It has to take the at the start of the turn aka before it moves back in during remaining moves... What happens if it fails?

Luuky19
20-11-2013, 14:59
I would think you would refer to the "Immune to Psychology" for the Flee! which you gain for being "Stupid"
The unit would rally as normal, once the unit has successfully rallied then you would once again apply Stupidity.

I very sure this is not what happens. because two rules collide, stupidity and rally, the spacial rule stupidity win over the basic rule rally. AKA you can take no further action win over the need to take a rally test or to flee as both are actions. The only thing I'm not sure of is that you still need flee the next turn. (p8)


And what if a stupid unit pursues an enemy off the board?

That a tricky one a 3 options all make sense

1. The unit counts as not in play during the start of its turn thus not test is taken and it enters the field as described in the rule book (p58 and p27).
2. It takes its test when it rejoins the fight in the remaining movement sub face, counting that as the start of its turn.
3. It takes it test before you it rejoins the fight, if it fails it will not return to the battle field that turn.

With 1 you really say that the game state (start of turn) requirement does not trigger as the unit is not there during the time the game is in this state. Causing the part of the special rule that forces the test to not come into play.

With 2 you say the game state requirement triggers when it enters the battle field. Causing the part of the special rule that forces the test to come into play at the same time the unit/model does also stating that it turns starts when the unit/model enters the battlefield. This option also means that other special rules that are applied at the start of its turn need to be applied when it rejoins the game or else you contradict your self with this option.

With 3 you really say that the game state requirement does trigger even when the unit is not on the battlefield. Causing the part of the special rule that forces the test to come into play even if the unit/model is not on the battlefield.

I personally would say option 3 to be the correct one as I can not find a rule stating that a model that is still part of the game but not yet on the field lose its special rules, but rules like ambushers show the opposite to be more true as they are active only when the unit is not yet inplay. Thus it makes more sens that a unit needs to take the test rather then not, and that it affects the unit/model the same way it does when the unit/model is on the battle field. (p79)

Wesser
20-11-2013, 19:29
Yea but aren't there stuff with ambushers that allows a unit to reroll it's test or something? From some special character?

But it seems I played it right... even if you got no control over your model doesn't mean it can't go stupid.

Damn, did I just manage to make the Wizarding Hat even crappier than it already was?

Roshan
21-11-2013, 13:40
I would say yes, you did right.

The way i read the stupidty rules its done at the start of the phase ( similar to annimosity ) then rally in the compulsary moves phase if you pass the stupid test.

Tae
21-11-2013, 15:03
I very sure this is not what happens. because two rules collide, stupidity and rally, the spacial rule stupidity win over the basic rule rally. AKA you can take no further action win over the need to take a rally test or to flee as both are actions. The only thing I'm not sure of is that you still need flee the next turn. (p8)



That a tricky one a 3 options all make sense

1. The unit counts as not in play during the start of its turn thus not test is taken and it enters the field as described in the rule book (p58 and p27).
2. It takes its test when it rejoins the fight in the remaining movement sub face, counting that as the start of its turn.
3. It takes it test before you it rejoins the fight, if it fails it will not return to the battle field that turn.

With 1 you really say that the game state (start of turn) requirement does not trigger as the unit is not there during the time the game is in this state. Causing the part of the special rule that forces the test to not come into play.

With 2 you say the game state requirement triggers when it enters the battle field. Causing the part of the special rule that forces the test to come into play at the same time the unit/model does also stating that it turns starts when the unit/model enters the battlefield. This option also means that other special rules that are applied at the start of its turn need to be applied when it rejoins the game or else you contradict your self with this option.

With 3 you really say that the game state requirement does trigger even when the unit is not on the battlefield. Causing the part of the special rule that forces the test to come into play even if the unit/model is not on the battlefield.

I personally would say option 3 to be the correct one as I can not find a rule stating that a model that is still part of the game but not yet on the field lose its special rules, but rules like ambushers show the opposite to be more true as they are active only when the unit is not yet inplay. Thus it makes more sens that a unit needs to take the test rather then not, and that it affects the unit/model the same way it does when the unit/model is on the battle field. (p79)

The only similar situations I can think of are in 40k (S'n'P and old Eldar psychics powers) both were done 'at start of turn' and both were ignored/not done if unit arrives from reserve.

Personally I would play it this way for Fantasy too. Units arriving from reserve do so after the point in the turn when they take the stupidity test, therefore they don't take it.

Roshan
21-11-2013, 15:55
Indeed, stupidity is start of turn, coming back on the board is again remaining moves. So stupidity checks are not applied to the unit as its not on the board and not required to take a test.

Wesser
22-11-2013, 07:59
Indeed, stupidity is start of turn, coming back on the board is again remaining moves. So stupidity checks are not applied to the unit as its not on the board and not required to take a test.

Says what rule? :)

Okay that's just being pedantic I know..

Roshan
22-11-2013, 08:41
Says what rule? :)

Okay that's just being pedantic I know..

The common sense rule :P
Im sure there is a piece of text somewhere that says that special rules dont apply for models off the board...dont have my book to hand :p

Luuky19
22-11-2013, 17:06
The only similar situations I can think of are in 40k (S'n'P and old Eldar psychics powers) both were done 'at start of turn' and both were ignored/not done if unit arrives from reserve.

Personally I would play it this way for Fantasy too. Units arriving from reserve do so after the point in the turn when they take the stupidity test, therefore they don't take it.
you didn't just compare 40K with fantasy. thats like comparing apples whit rocks. the only 2 things they have in common is that thy are tabletop TBS games and they use miniatures.


The common sense rule :P
Im sure there is a piece of text somewhere that says that special rules dont apply for models off the board...dont have my book to hand :p
OK so your common sense dictates ppl that have an IQ below 80 suddenly become intelligent from running like idiots. please theacht that method to all ppl around the world whit low IQ's and maybe take a crack at it yourself.


Says what rule? :)

Okay that's just being pedantic I know..

Thats what I was thinking.



1. The unit counts as not in play during the start of its turn thus not test is taken and it enters the field as described in the rule book (p58 and p27).
2. It takes its test when it rejoins the fight in the remaining movement sub face, counting that as the start of its turn.
3. It takes it test before you it rejoins the fight, if it fails it will not return to the battle field that turn.
(p79)

Its exualy stated in stupidity if you read the second paragraph it stats that a unit unless in combat must take the test. thus you must take the test and that would point out that 3 is the most likely to be correct. The movement is done outside of the board and not visible, you could imagine that the unit is to stupid to relays the fight is still going on and they either eat what they caught or keep looking for what they where chasing.

Tae
23-11-2013, 09:25
you didn't just compare 40K with fantasy. thats like comparing apples whit rocks. the only 2 things they have in common is that thy are tabletop TBS games and they use miniatures.

Yes I did. And no, that's not the only thing in common, they are both GW games that have similar rules in terms of turns, the parts of a turn and the order you do them in. Now I never said it was an exact answer, I merely pointed out that there is a presidency withing GW games of how they view it as to whether or not you are required to do stuff out of turn


Its exualy stated in stupidity if you read the second paragraph it stats that a unit unless in combat must take the test. thus you must take the test and that would point out that 3 is the most likely to be correct. The movement is done outside of the board and not visible, you could imagine that the unit is to stupid to relays the fight is still going on and they either eat what they caught or keep looking for what they where chasing.

What you could imagine is irrelevant. Stupidity requires them to take it at the start of the turn. At the start of the turn they are off the board, so do not take it as models off the board dare not counted (unless you're going to start arguing for allowing wizards off the board to channel, dispel etc).

They come on in the remaining moves section, which is well after the start of turn. In fact reinforcements specifically states they cannot charge as they have missed that part of their turn. Declaring charges comes after stupidity tests (which are at the start if the turn sub phase). So if they're too late for sub phase 2 they're certainly too late for sub phase 1.

Luuky19
23-11-2013, 13:28
Yes I did. And no, that's not the only thing in common, they are both GW games that have similar rules in terms of turns, the parts of a turn and the order you do them in. Now I never said it was an exact answer, I merely pointed out that there is a presidency withing GW games of how they view it as to whether or not you are required to do stuff out of turn



What you could imagine is irrelevant. Stupidity requires them to take it at the start of the turn. At the start of the turn they are off the board, so do not take it as models off the board dare not counted (unless you're going to start arguing for allowing wizards off the board to channel, dispel etc).

They come on in the remaining moves section, which is well after the start of turn. In fact reinforcements specifically states they cannot charge as they have missed that part of their turn. Declaring charges comes after stupidity tests (which are at the start if the turn sub phase). So if they're too late for sub phase 2 they're certainly too late for sub phase 1.

Its good that you point out the thing about channeling and stuff, as it does specifically stated that wizards that ar of the battle field are not allowed the contribute as they are to far away to do so (p30). This also means there has been no previous rule about not allowing thing continue when models/units are of the battle field as the makers would only specify this as an exception if it goes against the normal flow of things, else it would not be an exception.

And really again whit a basic rule winning from an advanced rule? How many times does to rules need to say that the rules in the special rules section alway way come first when they contradict each other (p66).