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The Lion's Shade
18-11-2013, 21:07
Hi,

There was a debate in my local gaming store about which of the ''Irregular'' i.e. don't follow codex Astartes is the best. Just thought I'd bring the debate to the forums see what people think. When I say the best I mean primarily fluff wise. I don't mean who would win in a fight. Please don't bring the Smurfs into this. This thread is ONLY about the irregular chapters listed in the poll. :D

harlokin
18-11-2013, 21:26
"I do not care who knows the truth now, tomorrow, or in ten thousand years. Loyalty is its own reward"

Fangschrecken
18-11-2013, 21:42
I went with the Dark Angels. The Blood Angels seem sort of mono faceted. Sure they're sort of tragic what with the best geneseed except for the flaw, but that's all they've really got.
Black Templars could be interesting, but their recent stuff isn't as involved.
I cannot stand the Space Wolves. Bunch of mary sue jagoffs who are always right, never fall, got to still use librarians after Nikea because their powers "come from Fenris," and are generally better than other marines just because they're space Vikings. I mean for goodness sake they don't even feel honored to have served in the Deathwatch because they think other chapters are full of losers. What a bunch of upjumped barbarian scum who should be wiped from the face of the galaxy. The Squat treatment is too good for them. GW needs to rewrite the fluff so Leman Russ is one of the missing primarchs and those damned space puppies can be excised from history and replaced with a more deserving Legion/chapter.

The Lion's Shade
18-11-2013, 22:01
Yeah I went with Dark Angels. However Black Templar's are strong contenders. Their more than abnormal chapter size and their complete unwavering loyalty to the Emperor gives them a continuous drive that other chapters don't possess. But I would say the Dark Angels are a more efficient Chapter ( they have to be when they are hiding one of the biggest secrets in the Imperium ). While they don't have the numbers of the other irregular chapters they use what they've got to not only remain ridiculously faithful to the Emperor but also conduct expeditions to find the Fallen. It's a really impressive chapter ( not saying the others aren't't :) ) and that's why I voted for it.

Perrin
18-11-2013, 22:44
Space Wolves, Black Templars were a close second though.

Have I misunderstood what the OP means by "irregular"? I really don't see the DA or BA as "irregulars". DA are normal except for the Inner Circle, and first two companies, after that they're Codex. The BA are completely Codex disposition wise except for SangGuard and Death Company, and obviously Red Thirst and Black Rage. Hell the Iron Snakes are more irregular than either of them, and that's just the first example I found.

Anyway, Space Wolves because they don't really take themselves too seriously and are slightly rebellious. Not saying that other Chapters aren't by the way, just that Space Vikings are my favourite.

Menthak
18-11-2013, 23:57
You're a bit far off considering some of those chapters irregular.

Plus 'best fluff' is subjective, my love is not the same as others.

You want to know real irregulars?

Astral Claws, Black Dragons, Blood Drinkers, Celestial Lions, Exorcists, Fire Hawks or the Relictors are truly irregular.

MajorWesJanson
19-11-2013, 04:03
Dark Angels have strong, compelling fluff, and therefore I despise them as a chapter. I dislike the secrecy and arrogance they tend to show, which is a good thing. It's like well written villains, they are fun to root against.

Blood Angels are mainly codex but genetically flawed, but I much prefer the Flesh Tearers under Seth and Blood Drinkers as seen in Death of Integrity compared to the BA proper.

Space Wolves are an interesting chapter with some good characters, but they tend to go a bit to far into certain tropes and cliches. Though Bjorn is one of the best characters in all of 40K

Black Templars I find most interesting of the four choices presented. Especially thanks to ADB's Helbrect and the way he contrasted them with the Salamanders, and also thanks to Dreadnought brother Jarold, second best Dreadnought in the fluff.

TheDungen
19-11-2013, 12:54
Best as in what? Martially strongest? Best trained? most victories? most interesting fluff?

The Lion's Shade
19-11-2013, 17:27
Menthak, I judge the irregularity on the four listed by the fact that gamesworkshop felt the need to give them their own codices because of these irregularity's.

ntw3001
19-11-2013, 17:36
I would say that GW decided to give them codices, then came up with some irregularities (beyond the tiny (where nonzero) number of units already existing which weren't adequately represented in C:SM) to justify the decision. Except Space Wolves, who are different.

I guess I'll go for the Templars. I don't know enough BA fluff, DA don't really interest me and Wolves are just a bit silly. Templars are alright.

The Lion's Shade
19-11-2013, 20:00
Um just to point out Black Templars are arguably one of the most irregular chapters out there. They completely defy the codex Arstartes with their chapter numbering an approximate of 5,000-15,000 (depending on source).

Sotek
19-11-2013, 20:01
Best for fluff, character and lack of emo is BA and BT. Space puppies are mary sue and DA are too emo

Menthak
19-11-2013, 20:23
Menthak, I judge the irregularity on the four listed by the fact that gamesworkshop felt the need to give them their own codices because of these irregularity's.

Fair enough, voted Templars.

The Lion's Shade
19-11-2013, 21:58
Sotek what makes you say that Dark Angels are 'too emo'. What piece of fluff leads you to this conclusion.

Sotek
19-11-2013, 23:03
Their whole 'we have a dark secret' 'we work alone' 'our primarch was a gay poet' 'hunt the fallen' and so on. I'm not a huge fan,I like them about as much as I like iron hands or white scars.Which is still more than ultramarines or space puppies.

TheBearminator
19-11-2013, 23:17
Their whole 'we have a dark secret' 'we work alone' 'our primarch was a gay poet' 'hunt the fallen' and so on. I'm not a huge fan,I like them about as much as I like iron hands or white scars.Which is still more than ultramarines or space puppies.

Seriously? There was a gay primarch? Awesome! DA finally got a little intriguing.

The Lion's Shade
20-11-2013, 18:00
Sotek at no point in actual 40k fluff does it state that Lion'el Jonson was a homosexual (I'm fully aware that the poet who wrote the Drak Angels poem was homosexual). GW most likely made him the name of the Primarch to give him credit for the poem that inspired the chapter. As for them being emos look up the definition and im pretty sure that the definition will be somewhat different to what you have stated.

TheDungen
20-11-2013, 22:48
Dark angels are gothic but not as in goth rock or gothic metal, they are based on the knight templar and the illuminatii.

And even if they were goth and emo are not the same thing.

Harwammer
21-11-2013, 08:39
I'm always disappointed when I read people making cartoonish misrepresentation of the fluff.

The one example that gets me, admittedly it hasn't been raised in this thread, is when people say DA and SW would never ally. Historically the two Primarchs weren't exactly on the best terms. Truth is we know they have allied pretty consistently since the Heresy. In order to put aside their differences before the battle each chapter puts forward a champion for a ritual combat, in homage to the scrapes the Lion and the Wolf used to get in to. If they didn't ever fight alongside each other such a tradition would not exist.

This brings me on to my main point and back on topic. All the chapters have good fluff, the more you read the more there is to enjoy. I particularly like the pieces that show the connections between the different forces in the imperium, such as that above.

The real question is how come these two Primarchs disappeared? Is Lion hiding from his brother? Has Russ been searching for his peer's hidey-hole in the rock and has been putting The Lion in to a 10k year long nuggy hold? I like to think these are some of the in Universe theories regarding these missing superstars :D.

=Angel=
21-11-2013, 09:36
Templars are the best in terms of background. And by background I mean background that enables you to play interesting scenarios and enrich your tabletop experience.
For instance- the Custodes are a very interesting bunch who never leave earth. Their background does not invite gameplay scenarios.

Wolves are very interesting and different to a normal space marine chapter.
Blood Angels have an interesting flaw(read- ingame benefits) and dark angels have a tragic past filled with paranoia and betrayal.

None of this hits the table.

None of this lends itself to scenarios- with the exception of hunting the fallen.

We will never see a game where the blood angels go and eat civilians. That exists purely in the background. Likewise- all these chapters have flaws or problems that if the inquisition found out about it could mean the end.
Except if that happened it would break the status quo- it's a non runner. It'd be like basing a three game tree campaign on terra and seeing if Abaddon can kill the Emperor.

Nobody is going to exterminatus Baal /Fenris/ the rock outside of alternative timelines.

Largely the wolves and the blood/dark angels have the same background limitations as the Ultramarines- a thousand warriors tied to a single world (which they can't lose- so don't play games there unless you railroad the outcome.
They can get calls for aid that justify them leaping into action, they can honour oaths sworn and they can patrol space.
Templars get all the standard chapter plothooks that these other chapters get but they are not tied to a homeworld.
They have numerous keeps- you could totally have the iron warriors break open a keep and slaughter all of Dorn's sons within without breaking the status quo. You can have games where a keep is defended only by it's raw recruits - neophytes and their grizzly old instructor- maybe a techmarine who keeps things running.

You have the Templars launching vast crusades- they have more manpower than other chapters- so losing a few companies will not cripple the chapter. This enables them to lose 'bigger' which enables stories.
Like the wolves they have a non standard chapter organisation. It's actually a little more apparent than the wolves- you see the knight and squire, Batman and Robin dynamic right there in the crusader squad.
You might be forgiven for thinking the wolves make their devastators and scouts grow beards.

Simply flying through space with the resources needed to keep elite fighting forces going (forge ships!) for extended periods of time away from resupply enables stories.
Think of all the startrek tropes that come with being a story about a travelling bus- what strange new planet will we arrive at next?
Templars are actively pushing back the boundaries of Imperial space and being awesome while Dante is busy growing out his hair (see blood quest) and Azreal is chairing the unforgiven committee.
I see more opportunities for great stories and great games than 'tragic flaw that makes us awesome killing machines' or ' dark secret that'll never get out' or 'someone spilled a spacewolf's beer'

harlokin
21-11-2013, 09:44
Largely the wolves and the blood/dark angels have the same background limitations as the Ultramarines- a thousand warriors tied to a single world (which they can't lose- so don't play games there unless you railroad the outcome.

If only the Dark Angels had secretly maintained their Legion, and operated out of a huge base that could travel through the galaxy. ;)

Second Founding? rofl

Harwammer
21-11-2013, 09:53
I just remembered something I like about the Blood Angels, the fact that their chapter has been essentially destroyed and rebooted*... at least once. Blood Angels have a very 'back from the dead' theme to a lot of their characters, so it was interesting that this theme also applied to the chapter as a whole.

*Taken down to around 50 members and had to ask other BA legion successor chapters for pretty much everything that a chapter's existence requires to get them on their feet again. I sometimes wonder if the BA decimated their chapter on purpose to try kill off all but their purest geneseed lines.

The Lion's Shade
22-11-2013, 23:19
harlokin ;P. By the way =Angel= Space wolves are very different to Smurfs so.... yeah.

Evilhomer
23-11-2013, 00:35
Best for fluff, character and lack of emo is BA and BT. Space puppies are mary sue and DA are too emo

Lack of emo for Blood Angels? If we want to reduce marine chapters to one-dimensional tropes, then you might want to re-evaluate your opinion of Blood Angels not being emo.

I mean being all angsty over the death of your primarch and moody over your dark secret (I vant to suck your blood) comes across as a little....twilight? They even have a successor chapter called the Lamenters (whose chapter symbol is a weeping heart).

Dark Angels are more like Liam Neelsons character in Taken. Torturing bad guys for information, then burying the body in the woods.

InstantKarma
25-11-2013, 15:37
Dark Angels being emo? This is a 'chapter' which is notorious for maining 'more than close' ties with their sucessors, which in Imperial minds = 'Legion Building'. This is a chapter which also has no qualms about killing Inquistors to maintain their coverup. They are more Monastic/Knightly Order than BTs to be honest.

As for BAs and Space Puppies I mean, we practically have the 40k equivalent of Team Edward & Team Jacob. Need I say more?

TheDungen
26-11-2013, 00:09
Personally I loathe Space worfs, vikings doesn't make the least bit sense once you remove them from their context and I have yet to see more than a handfull works of fiction that gets that context (the snowwalker's son and the longships are the only examples I can think of). They may as well give them horned helmets cause out of context they are only ever hollywood vikings and nearly as bad as Marvels thor (ok nothing is that bad).

The Lion's Shade
26-11-2013, 21:45
Yeah I must admit GW evidently didn't try very hard to make it a subtle similarity like most of the names of the Space Wolf HQs come from various historical viking heroes. I'm aware there is mean tot be a Nord esque theme to the Space Wolves (which I think is a cool concept) but I think the execution lacks originality.