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Karak Norn Clansman
22-11-2013, 13:17
I'm interested to know this, because a friend of mine likes the GK range almost as much as the Adepta Sororitas range. However, a reputation of imbalance puts hinders in his way. One don't want an army that plays for you, neither does one want an army noone want to play against.

For games at home some issues might be fixed with some house rules... So, what exactly makes Grey Knights overpowered?

EDIT: Another of my friends stubbornly refuses to play against Grey Knights with his Chaos Space Marines. He have varied lists and most of the choices from the codex in small numbers in his collection.

Can CSM take on Grey Knights in 6th edition without spamming one particular unit or weapon?

budman
22-11-2013, 13:29
They have termys as troops and everyone has psy powers... and the Ulgy but awsome dreadknights
They were the killer army of 5th ed however we are in the 6th ed era and they are very much not the power army they once were good yes
VS tau or Crons or some CSM build they are on to a right loser and the new codex SM Grav guns ruin the day of any 15 man army

Sotek
22-11-2013, 13:29
They are not too bad at the moment due to 6th and codex creep. He should just go for it

budman
22-11-2013, 13:39
They are not too bad at the moment due to 6th and codex creep. He should just go for it

agreed on all these points

Ironbone
22-11-2013, 14:03
So, what exactly makes Grey Knights overpowered?
Sily rules followed by even more sily costs.

Well, now GK are not that OP as they used to be in 5th ed, but still are too strong for their cost, or too chap for their strenght.

GK just have lots and lost of wargear, but, for unknown reasons, they pay lot less than any other army. Space marine with power weapon in armies like BA, SW, SM, DA and so on cost about 30 pts. Basic GK for 23 ppm have forceweapon, storm bolter, aegis, and hammerhand. And belive me, basic GK is actually least offendable in "why it is so damm cheap" cathegory. Sure, it dies exactly as 13 ppm CSM, but it's killing power, both CC and shooting one is far superiour than any other SM.

Also GK makes mockery of many basic and core rules. Ofc, they are not the only ones, nor the first, or the last to do such things. But no other army ever have so many "we use diffrent rules than rest of the universe" WTF-s. Granades on terminators, buyable psychic powers, inciaitive "11" attacks, auto-pass psychic tests wargear for Force Weapons, +1 str for +5 pts weapons upgrade for entire vechicle ( damm, even if it cost +5 per weapon it would be so good ), force weapons in all passible ( and more ) flavours almost everywhere, diffrent fist/Thunder hammer str calculation ( every other army, as per Rulebook, if have fist and some kind of Str bonus, like Furious charge, will calculate it by (base x2)+1. GK for reason never explained, with hammerhand have (base +1)x2 :shifty:).

And on top of that, ones of the wrost pieces of fluff ever presented in any GW books in shape of Khaldor Darigo.

Well, as I said, they are not THAT tragic to play against like some time ago, and now they are armies even more powerful by 6th ed metagame, be the eldar or tau for example, but sill GK are not a funny army to play against.

IcedCrow
22-11-2013, 14:27
Yeah. I hated them in 5th. They are strong now but not OP. IMO.

The biggest irritants in 5th were the draigo spam paladin lists because you could allocate the wounds around the unit which made them essentially indestructible, combined with the fact that they pretty much all had force weapons so not only were carving through your armor, but instakilling any multi wound monsters.

Then there were the rifledread spam on top of that.

Ironbone
22-11-2013, 14:40
They are strong now but not OP. IMO.
You have right to be wrong ;). True, 6th ed rules cliped their wings, but not as much as many would think. GK army still totaly dominate in CC, and have excelent shooting. Catch is that range is almost excusivly limited to 24", and GK usally boast smaller numbers comapare to othe SM armies. Today top armies, eldar and Tau outclass GK, pionty-ears by outnamovering them, and Tau by outshooting them. Oh, and Nekrons outflyer them ;). But against majority of other armies, GK, more than not, still posses about same power like in 5th.

Mandragola
22-11-2013, 14:51
GKs are fine. Powerful but not crazily so. Somewhat inflexible due to slowness and short range.

IcedCrow
22-11-2013, 14:57
I guess why GK aren't as big a deal now (they are still strong, i still consider them a tournament must-take army) is because the paladin list got toned down quite a bit. That was the main thing that I couldn't stand. the nob biker crap was equally irritating for the same reason.

Kingly
22-11-2013, 14:58
They've got a glass jaw man. High Str AP2 guns and it's night night time!

Gossipmeng
22-11-2013, 14:58
Grey knights aren't so hot in 6th anymore - they no longer have initiative 6 power weapons that can cut through anything. Wound allocation changes and higher volumes of plasma fire means MEQ and TEQ took a hit. I love playing against draigowing these days.

Spiney Norman
22-11-2013, 14:59
I'm interested to know this, because a friend of mine likes the GK range almost as much as the Adepta Sororitas range. However, a reputation of imbalance puts hinders in his way. One don't want an army that plays for you, neither does one want an army noone want to play against.

For games at home some issues might be fixed with some house rules... So, what exactly makes Grey Knights overpowered?

If your friend likes the models he should go for it, that is the first, best reason to choose your army.

With regards to OPness, the question is never whether or not an army IS overpowered, but whether it can be fielded in a particularly abusive build. There really isn't any army in the game where every unit is flat out broke. Is it possible to play GK like an absolute jerk? You bet, but it has always been possible to play them in a measured, sensible, play-to-have-fun way. Not everyone plays 40K by spamming the most OP choices in their codex, contrary to popular warseer wisdom.

Tbh, if your friend is choosing his army because he likes the models and not because they are uber-powerful then he's probably not the kind of guy that is going to vomit out the latest min-maxed netlist anyway.

Karak Norn Clansman
22-11-2013, 15:24
If your friend likes the models he should go for it, that is the first, best reason to choose your army.

With regards to OPness, the question is never whether or not an army IS overpowered, but whether it can be fielded in a particularly abusive build. There really isn't any army in the game where every unit is flat out broke. Is it possible to play GK like an absolute jerk? You bet, but it has always been possible to play them in a measured, sensible, play-to-have-fun way. Not everyone plays 40K by spamming the most OP choices in their codex, contrary to popular warseer wisdom.

Tbh, if your friend is choosing his army because he likes the models and not because they are uber-powerful then he's probably not the kind of guy that is going to vomit out the latest min-maxed netlist anyway.

I agree, and he've said he won't go for the sickest lists. The little problem here is that he already have a vast WHFB collection, and will limit his foray into 40k to one army. Now that another friend out of our local group of 4 people refuses to play against him in 40k if he takes Grey Knights (min-maxed or not) that's a road block.

Either GK are somewhat balanced in 6th if one chooses an average list and will allow this buddy's CSM army to compete with the GK army, or we'll have to houserule away some sides of their rules.

Another option for my friend, which seem very likely, is to go a Grey Knight and Adepta Sororita alliance, because he likes both ranges (A.S. particularly) and because the new alliance system allows for building armies out of several small collections.

13713
22-11-2013, 15:29
The allies matrix does allow for collecting more armies in a smaller point size. Your friend might just want to do what you suggested and play the two armies together. Honestly GK are not that overpowered. They just have a bad reputation from 5th edition and there is a lot of bitterness from when they were super OP.

Charistoph
22-11-2013, 15:58
Indeed, if he limits his Grey Knights to an Ally Detachment and goes in to Imperial Guard or Space Marines as a Primary, it's not as scary.

13713
22-11-2013, 16:23
Indeed, if he limits his Grey Knights to an Ally Detachment and goes in to Imperial Guard or Space Marines as a Primary, it's not as scary.

And an Ally detachment of GK would be super fluffy as well if your friend is into the fluff aspect of course.

Chem-Dog
22-11-2013, 16:47
The Grey knights were/are only scary if used in a scary way, a bit of restraint when building your army will mean they're a marine army with sparkles rather than some kind of ogre unbeatable army.

Amendera
22-11-2013, 17:53
Chapter 666 were scary when they were C:DH and 5th ed C:GK.

In 6th with the advent of flyers, Precision Shots, Challenges and Grav Guns.. unpainted knights are just another faction.

They pay heavily for being as elite as they are.. and they still fall to bolter shots as easily as anything else.

Ironbone
22-11-2013, 18:23
They pay heavily for being as elite as they are
Realy :p? For all crazy stuff they have, GK are very cheap :p. Is not that visible when they are dying like all other marines, but it's just wrong seeing army so overeqiuped, and so undercosted because of that.


Somewhat inflexible due to slowness and short range
Exacty, that the reason why current top armies outclass them. Well, such is just nature of GK to be utterly awesome in one area, and lack a lot in others. Flaws are also part of army character anyway.


In 6th with the advent of flyers, Precision Shots, Challenges and Grav Guns
Aside gravs ( wich are, at least now, one army special ), none of these hamper GK that much. GK suffer a bit from game focus shifted from close combat to shooting. GK dakka is very powerful, but majority of it have range of 24", not bad by any mean ( ceartailny not short ), but to shoot enemy, they must place themselfs in range of enemy weapon as well ( duh, it's called fair fight :p ).

Overall, GK, while not top tier, are still kind of OP, above the averange army. It does not mean you can not play and win against them, just still they have upper hand over too many armies.

El_Machinae
22-11-2013, 19:11
The one thing that I completely adore about GK is the overwhelming amount of variability compared to other codexes. With one HQ tax, you have something like 40 gazillion permutations and combinations available for troop choices. I've yet to proxy an all demonhost army, but I expect there to be much glee involved.

Vaktathi
22-11-2013, 19:15
GK's were an issue in 5th, but with the changes to vehicles and CC in 6th, GK's are nowhere near as powerful, as the strong GK builds relied heavily on light/medium AV gun-transports and getting units into short range firefights followed up by assaults, which just does not function in 6E. They're not awful, but aren't anywhere near as powerful now.

Mandragola
23-11-2013, 09:55
Right now the poll shows 30 saying not OP, 4 saying OP.

I can only really speak as a tournament player. GKs are gone from the tournament scene. I don't think they were ever really liked and they aren't a really fun army to play. I always found them frustrating to use because you can't actually do very much to control them, with that 6" move and 24" range on everyone. Draigowing only worked if your opponent couldn't do anything to stop it and always failed if he could. It never led to good games.

But the real problem is your other friend who refuses to play against them. His information is out of date. There are 3-4 armies out there now that are flat out better than GKs on a power level. I don't actually think they were ever all that spectacular against good opponents. the problem was they ruled pick up games in shops on 4x4 boards where the other guy couldn't manoeuvre.

Inquisitor Shego
23-11-2013, 17:17
40k, Fantasy, Lord of the Rings, Specialist Games: Long ago, the gamers used to live in harmony. Then, everything changed when Matt Ward's codex attacked. Only Andy Chambers, master of all four elements of a fun codex could stop it, but when the world needed him most, he vanished!

A couple of editions passed, and my neckbeard and I discovered the new Andy Chambers, a codex writer called Vetock, and although his codex writing skills are great, he has a lot to learn before he's ready to save anyone...

But I believe Vetock can save the hobby!

*****

Wound allocation has been ruined for Paladin death stars, hull points have ruined psyrifle dreadnoughts, and things have returned back to normal. My ultimate knowledge that good has triumphed over evil, and Grey Knights have lost their sting was realised when my friend who is an avid MTG hardcore fanatic has stopped playing 40k. He never played 40k to begin with, but when GK came out he mysteriously took the lazy option of...

2 x Psy Dreadnought
20 Paladins all with slightly different wargear
Draigo

And now that 6th ed has rolled out, I can't get a game of 40k from him for love nor money. What a surprise. Now if they could just fix Inquisition so I can go back to my Daemon Hunters without having to associate myself with the GK elements of this mess, we're all finger licking good once more.

Amendera
23-11-2013, 22:18
40k, Fantasy, Lord of the Rings, Specialist Games: Long ago, the gamers used to live in harmony. Then, everything changed when Matt Ward's codex attacked. Only Andy Chambers, master of all four elements of a fun codex could stop it, but when the world needed him most, he vanished!

A couple of editions passed, and my neckbeard and I discovered the new Andy Chambers, a codex writer called Vetock, and although his codex writing skills are great, he has a lot to learn before he's ready to save anyone...

But I believe Vetock can save the hobby!

*****


I think I, and many others have found their new signature.

But fear for the Legend of Gav Thorpe and his repeating storylines.

Lord Squidar
23-11-2013, 23:04
I'd say overwhelmingly NO in all circumstances except one. They are cheap yes, but end up being few in number and a few good russ hits on select units drastically drops them in power. They can take a beating but once a few units crumble its GG.

However

As a primary daemons player, GK are still an absolute abomination to play. The problem is that you end up with a default army tailor made to fight your daemons, so many units of rules they get for free and without having to decide on alternate gear outs before the battle. I.e. GK always fight your daemons at top power level, and daemons have very little to answer for it. Its themed and fluffy, but its like playing one of the goons in a Bond film, you have no hope in hell when 007 comes around the corner. I would be tickled pink if the grey knights dropped a little in points but had to pay for the anti daemon abilities they have right now before the game starts.

That way the player needs to think, "hm, if I take daemonbane on all my units and I go for a casual pick up game down at the store and fight marines, it will be useless. So maybe lets not include it. Oh but next week I have a campaign game against my daemon friend, lets pay the extra cost for it." Difference is that if I end up being the casual pick up with daemons I am not in for an unholy godstorm of unfair rules, and if I willingly accept to play daemons in a campaign or something, I have no right to complain =)

harlekin
24-11-2013, 18:47
Codex: Demonhunter had the solution in terms of buffs for Chaos armies, a free greater demon, demon beasts spawning in waves etc.. Apart from quite a few points discussed elsewhere/ a long time ago/ with no need to be repeat it, it was kind of dumb to not continue this balancing option. Well in this time GK payed a big deal extra when fighting not-chaos.

All what I know is their abundance of Anti air, a similar problem SW used to face, I think. The Option for Allies don't count in this respect.

But, frankly there arr tyranids whose MCs and warriors just go home against greyknights.... yet ;).

Mandragola
24-11-2013, 19:55
GKs do destroy big daemons pretty easily. I'm not sure they are all that great against the little ones. Actually I haven't really seen games between them. Daemons do tend to have multiple wounds, and suffer more wounds if they lose combat... which is bad news against an army of guys with force weapons I suppose! Not sure they can do much about a screamer council though.

Menthak
24-11-2013, 20:25
As I primarily play against them in Kill-team, I voted yes.

Although I do acknowledge that 6th has swung the sledge-hammer of nerf into the sides of GKs pretty viciously, not making them underpowered by a long shot, but taking drastic strides to remove some of their former power.

Pancakey
24-11-2013, 23:20
Does the CSM player sight any actual reasons for not wanting to play aginst GK? Is this same CSM player painting up multiple hell chickens?

Chnmmr
25-11-2013, 02:45
Reading statements like 'they are not top tier yet still op' makes no sense. As a GK player I can tell you that not many armies fear gas anymore. Each new codex pummels us further into the dirt. Yes we get lots of gear, but our base troop is 20 points with a max range of 24". We have very limited access to ranged ap2/3 as well as range past 24". We do have cool toys but it does little in the face of tau and elder. We are better than the older codexes for sure, but the gas don't feel like a 6th ed codex and it shows. Gas don't dominate tournaments anymore, not even with necron allies. Now with the the addition of the Inq codex, the gks will fall even further behind.

They are not a bad army but anyone who thinks they are op either play 5th ed, demons or don't play 40k at all.

Nubl0
25-11-2013, 05:35
Played against a draigo wing list yesterday with my nids. It's annoying how my mcs instantly die if anything touches them. However sheer number of gaunts managed to win, and draigo died turn 2 from a tervigon psychic shrieking at him :)

Sir Didymus
25-11-2013, 07:00
With only two models pure GK are the most boring army
on earth. You need the inquisition or allies to make an interesting build :)

Charistoph
25-11-2013, 07:06
With only two models pure GK are the most boring army
on earth. You need the inquisition or allies to make an interesting build :)

Aside from Special Characters, they have 3 unique models. Power Armor, Terminator, and Dread Knight.

Dizzy91
25-11-2013, 08:52
I have voted undecided as some aspects of of grey knights are just ridiculous.
one of my close friends have played them since the glory days of 5th.
They don't seem as bad any more, but when I now i'm fighting GK I just know not to take some units.
ie wraith lords... etc and my rebooted orks are having some real problems with twin dreadknights challenging my powerklaws..
I know that shooting them off the board is the easy way to take them out but my combat armies suffer,
I could add more shooting but I enjoy playing certain units.
Idont think ive ever faced true grey knight cheese but dayumm,
mordrak and psycotrope(?) nades what were they thinking

totgeboren
25-11-2013, 08:55
The problem that makes people not enjoy facing them can be presented by a comparison between a basic unit of GKs and a basic unit of CSM.

10 CSM with a pw champ and two plasmaguns, plus bp, bolter and ccw (to make them at least semi-comparable to GKs, and also to present a unit many people actually field), runs just over 200 pts, or 230 if they are given a fearless icon, so that they have comparable morale to the GKs (ATSKNF).
A 10 GK squad with 2 psycannons costs 240 pts I think. 2 psycannons are better than 2 plasmaguns against everything except 2+ save units, don't get hot and allows you to shoot and assault. They also have 2 times the bolter firepower except when within 12", but they can use their full firepower and still assault, and while lacking the number of attacks the CSM have in close combat, they have AP3 and Force Weapons which more than makes up for it, against everything except possibly 2+ save enemies.

So for an average of 1 point extra per model, you get better ranged ability, better close combat ability, psychic powers and defence, and some nice extra grenades, plus better morale.

This is one of the worst gk units (ok, the basic CSM squad is also one of the worse CSM units), but the problem with GKs is that their bad units are on par or much much better than the equivalent other armies can bring to the table.

Another GK unit that makes people(/me) cry foul is the vindicare assassin, who is actually better at taking out tanks than even a Wraithknight with two wraithcannons. The rules are beyond silly, it's like they were written for a different game.

However, I must point out that most games I have had against GK have been pretty fun after all, even if they have an atrocious codex. If your friend is a fun opponent to face in WHFB, he will be fun to face in w40k, even if he has a GK army.

Facing them as CSM can be frustrating, but that is more because of the CSM book than the GK book.

Chnmmr
25-11-2013, 13:24
The problem that makes people not enjoy facing them can be presented by a comparison between a basic unit of GKs and a basic unit of CSM.

10 CSM with a pw champ and two plasmaguns, plus bp, bolter and ccw (to make them at least semi-comparable to GKs, and also to present a unit many people actually field), runs just over 200 pts, or 230 if they are given a fearless icon, so that they have comparable morale to the GKs (ATSKNF).
A 10 GK squad with 2 psycannons costs 240 pts I think. 2 psycannons are better than 2 plasmaguns against everything except 2+ save units, don't get hot and allows you to shoot and assault. They also have 2 times the bolter firepower except when within 12", but they can use their full firepower and still assault, and while lacking the number of attacks the CSM have in close combat, they have AP3 and Force Weapons which more than makes up for it, against everything except possibly 2+ save enemies.

So for an average of 1 point extra per model, you get better ranged ability, better close combat ability, psychic powers and defence, and some nice extra grenades, plus better morale.

This is one of the worst gk units (ok, the basic CSM squad is also one of the worse CSM units), but the problem with GKs is that their bad units are on par or much much better than the equivalent other armies can bring to the table.

Another GK unit that makes people(/me) cry foul is the vindicare assassin, who is actually better at taking out tanks than even a Wraithknight with two wraithcannons. The rules are beyond silly, it's like they were written for a different game.

However, I must point out that most games I have had against GK have been pretty fun after all, even if they have an atrocious codex. If your friend is a fun opponent to face in WHFB, he will be fun to face in w40k, even if he has a GK army.

Facing them as CSM can be frustrating, but that is more because of the CSM book than the GK book.

I would gladly trade in psycannons for plasma guns. Ap2 vs Ap4? Same strength? Yes please. But we don't have this. Instead we have a good amount of AP5/4 shots that won't really dent marines that much. So I need to get into melee to finish them off, probably having lost 2 GKs to your plasma on the way.

In the end I've had good games against every codex except Tau and Eldar. They have been fun matches with no one side being clearly the winner. GKs have what they have because it makes up for their short falls. The shortfalls are blatant against Tau and Eldar where we die before we get to them.

Sir Didymus
25-11-2013, 15:18
Aside from Special Characters, they have 3 unique models. Power Armor, Terminator, and Dread Knight.

Oh yeah, sorry :)

But my point was, that all GK units perform the same, and only play slightly different roles, whereas other marines have tons of variation. Tactical, assault, bikes, stern-/vanguard, devastators, 2 versions of terminators, teletubbies, scouts and lots of extra tanks and other vehicles. Where its hard to tell the difference between a varied GK army and purifier spam :p

El_Machinae
25-11-2013, 17:25
That's all entirely true. Unless you count Coteaz and the henchmen wildness. At then, sky's the limit on variation, really.

totgeboren
25-11-2013, 17:31
I would gladly trade in psycannons for plasma guns. Ap2 vs Ap4? Same strength? Yes please. But we don't have this. Instead we have a good amount of AP5/4 shots that won't really dent marines that much. So I need to get into melee to finish them off, probably having lost 2 GKs to your plasma on the way.

In the end I've had good games against every codex except Tau and Eldar. They have been fun matches with no one side being clearly the winner. GKs have what they have because it makes up for their short falls. The shortfalls are blatant against Tau and Eldar where we die before we get to them.

You know, from a statistical point of view, 2 psycannon shots (at BS4) will cause 0.52 wounds on a MEQ, whilst 1 plasma shot (at BS4) will cause 0.55. The psycannon can also double the firepower by standing still, whilst the plasmagun has to get within 12" to double the firepower. If the enemy marine is in cover, the psycannon is much better.
The psycannon also does not get hot, and can be used before an assault, not to mention that it is two times as effective at taking out tanks than a lascannon, and much better vs hordes than a heavy bolter.

Believe me, you would not gladly trade in your psycannons for plasmaguns. The psycannon is hands down better in almost every way. It's actually a pretty stupid weapon in my mind, since there is really no point in having any other gun. I mean, a gun that is about as good vs MEQ as a plasmagun, better vs hordes than a h.bolter, and two times as good vs vehicles than a lascannon. It doesn't really promote variations in list building to put it mildly.

Karak Norn Clansman
25-11-2013, 19:17
Does the CSM player sight any actual reasons for not wanting to play aginst GK? Is this same CSM player painting up multiple hell chickens?

He have delved into depth on their low points cost for absurd upgrades and equipment, but he seem willing to face an alliance army with GK as one half. The CSM player only have one Heldrake, if that's what you mean, and I'm glad he doesn't field anymore. That single flyer rules the sky uncontested at the moment of writing. I believe the Heldrake would work more than fine against Grey Knights and give the CSM-playing friend an advantage which the GK-playing friend don't have.

Chnmmr
25-11-2013, 20:31
You know, from a statistical point of view, 2 psycannon shots (at BS4) will cause 0.52 wounds on a MEQ, whilst 1 plasma shot (at BS4) will cause 0.55. The psycannon can also double the firepower by standing still, whilst the plasmagun has to get within 12" to double the firepower. If the enemy marine is in cover, the psycannon is much better.
The psycannon also does not get hot, and can be used before an assault, not to mention that it is two times as effective at taking out tanks than a lascannon, and much better vs hordes than a heavy bolter.

Believe me, you would not gladly trade in your psycannons for plasmaguns. The psycannon is hands down better in almost every way. It's actually a pretty stupid weapon in my mind, since there is really no point in having any other gun. I mean, a gun that is about as good vs MEQ as a plasmagun, better vs hordes than a h.bolter, and two times as good vs vehicles than a lascannon. It doesn't really promote variations in list building to put it mildly.

I have played a few games with friends where I was allowed to replace Psycannons with plasma. The plasma was quite superior in most situations. +1 on the pen table helps. Now I will admit that down to mathhammmer the Psycannon may be superior, but my experience actually playing the game with psycannons and plasma switched suggests otherwise. Not allowing an armour save in the first place (or just a low invul save) is strong.

Charistoph
25-11-2013, 21:18
He have delved into depth on their low points cost for absurd upgrades and equipment, but he seem willing to face an alliance army with GK as one half. The CSM player only have one Heldrake, if that's what you mean, and I'm glad he doesn't field anymore. That single flyer rules the sky uncontested at the moment of writing. I believe the Heldrake would work more than fine against Grey Knights and give the CSM-playing friend an advantage which the GK-playing friend don't have.

If it's a Baledrake, a Storm Raven will eat it for lunch, since he'd have to fly across it to do any damage to it, and even then, Str 6 isn't that effective against it. The Raven is a lot of points, though.

Amendera
25-11-2013, 21:52
If it's a Baledrake, a Storm Raven will eat it for lunch, since he'd have to fly across it to do any damage to it, and even then, Str 6 isn't that effective against it. The Raven is a lot of points, though.
Str 7 surely for the baledrake unless i am reading the codex wrong?

ashc
25-11-2013, 21:57
It vector strikes at str7.

Charistoph
26-11-2013, 00:58
Str 7 surely for the baledrake unless i am reading the codex wrong?

It vector strikes at str7.

I don't have easy access to the codex, so I don't easily remember it's Strength for it. Even then, Str 7 can still struggle against the Raven's armour, and the weaponry the Raven has access to can readily shoot it down, if it has a turn to do so.

HereComesTomorrow
26-11-2013, 01:50
Am I the only one thinking that the CSM player is being kind of an ass. I would understand if the guy starting GKs was a known grognard who spammed the most broken aspects of his armies. But he just seems like a guy wanting to play a army. I don't see why he should be penalised because of one guys sour grapes.

Also, I find it hilarious that he agreed to an IG/GK alliance as that makes them even more powerful. IG can cover for the GK lack of long ranged, high strength fire power and GK cover for IGs lack of close combat units and low armour saves.

Pancakey
26-11-2013, 02:58
It sounds like the problem is the CSM player and not the GK army list.

If your gaming group can suffer the loss of a player, it would be best to cut ties with the CSM player as soon as possible. Letting him hold another player hostage is not a healthy environment for anyone. Without negative people like that in your gaming group, you will probably be better off in the long run.

Losing Command
26-11-2013, 05:02
Psycannons might statisticly beat Lascannons in tank-slaying, but on the table it certainly doesn't feel that way :shifty: A psycannon has half the range of a lascannon, and you gotta stand still to fire at full effect. If vehicles don't have to move foward to blow up some fancy power armour, and you don't roll that penetrating hit or multiple glances with 4 shots, it's not looking to good for your knights in shining armour :p And I've regularly had whole battles without rolling a single 6 to penetrate that Landraider Redeemer that's turning all my GK into shizzlin' kebabs :( Now you could take a Vindicare or henchman for that, but then you don't play GK anymore in my opinion, its not Codex : Coteaz people.

Lord Squidar
26-11-2013, 08:01
GKs do destroy big daemons pretty easily. I'm not sure they are all that great against the little ones. Actually I haven't really seen games between them. Daemons do tend to have multiple wounds, and suffer more wounds if they lose combat... which is bad news against an army of guys with force weapons I suppose! Not sure they can do much about a screamer council though.

Dude, have you seen what singular dread knights with a flamer and the gatling psilencer do to deamon hordes? Its disgusting, and imagine taking 2. They kill all our heroes and monsters in 1 hit, can take away our powers, make us strike last if they charge us, stop our psy powers too easily... list is endless. I have played against GK before when all my stuff came back on after it died the first time, still lost (I am an average player). Point is that it makes a mediocre GK player a god on the battlefield against daemons, for nothing in return. Fair. No.

I still said no though, other armies can shoot them off the board if there aren't any death star gimicky units.

El_Machinae
26-11-2013, 13:57
So, honestly, it's a question of how to balance them against Demons?

Lord Squidar
26-11-2013, 15:56
So, honestly, it's a question of how to balance them against Demons?

Like I said before, make them pay for the anti daemons abilities ala Veterans of the Long War. Its unfluffy sure, but it means that pick up games and tournament play against random opponents will be balanced, and tailoring your list will rightfully butcher daemons.

El_Machinae
26-11-2013, 16:12
Now, I've had mad fun when we house rule 'bonus points' for the 'nids when we play them horde style. I'd recommend something similar be done with demons. Honestly, scything down unrelenting numbers that slowly conquer objectives (if properly balanced where either side can win) is fun.

Karak Norn Clansman
26-11-2013, 16:23
It sounds like the problem is the CSM player and not the GK army list.

You'd be correct in this assumption, as would anyone else.


If your gaming group can suffer the loss of a player, it would be best to cut ties with the CSM player as soon as possible. Letting him hold another player hostage is not a healthy environment for anyone. Without negative people like that in your gaming group, you will probably be better off in the long run.

Hnah, we're all buddies in our little group and do other things besides Warhammer. Don't burn any bridges.

This veto against Grey Knights is a unique situation which partly stems from their deserved reputation as silly unbalanced during the recent edition and partly from the CSM player's personality. He's a good friend in many ways, but have some negative sides. To his defence, he's aware of many of them, but it's hard to change what might be hard-coded genetically into yourself. Poor treatment in his school didn't make things better. Most of the negative sides should and can be overlooked for most of the time, whilst a few are galling enough that one wants to tell him about it. Aggressively. :D

Ah, well. I'm sure the issue will solve itself as the GK player goes for an alliance (which is his best bet for limiting his 40k collection since he sincerely wants both GK and Adepta Sororitas), even if this alliance army de facto would prove to be more powerful than the pure GK army he would have otherwise collected.

Thank you all for your thoughts and advice. We appreciate them.

totgeboren
26-11-2013, 19:21
I just have to say that I can understand the CSM player. Back when the GKs were released I almost quit 40k entirely. The mere existence of that codex seriously reduced my enjoyment of the game.
It's a bit like a fighting game ala Street Fighter. If there is one character that is much better than everyone else, the game cannot become a hit, or even popular. Even if someone says "Well as long as no one uses him the game is really awesome", the game is still ruined.

Combine that with the bitchslap that the current CSM book is, and I'm not surprised that it is specifically a CSM player that wants to veto the GKs (even if Daemons are even more screwed than CSM against GKs).

However, I must say again that I met a really nice guy (bf of my gfs classmate) who plays GKs, and every game has been fun, even if he includes double DKs and a Vindicare. You should tell your CSM playing friend that. They are not as bad on the tabletop as they seem on paper. And if you know you are facing them, it's easy to just include some Oblits and Termies and you will give them a run for their money. Just as long as you can kill the Dreadknights before they can get into cc (where the CSM instant-suicide rule will make the fight a forgone conclusion), and shoot down the Vindicare (who is fearless so can't go to ground, and has a range that you can probably stay of if you need to) before he kills all your vehicles, then it's game on.

I mean, CSM termies with poweraxes will make shot work of GK Termies, who need to buy daemonhammers (which they often include one or two of) to have any chance of standing up to them. And combiplasmas on said Termies will make mincemeat of most stuff in a GK list too.

CSM have the tools they need to make a GK player sweat, so tell him not to worry about it. Also, Murder Sword is great fun to throw at a Dreadknight.
And if he continues to whine, buy him a Vindicator for Christmas! :p

Pancakey
26-11-2013, 19:39
You'd be correct in this assumption, as would anyone else.



Hnah, we're all buddies in our little group and do other things besides Warhammer. Don't burn any bridges.

This veto against Grey Knights is a unique situation which partly stems from their deserved reputation as silly unbalanced during the recent edition and partly from the CSM player's personality. He's a good friend in many ways, but have some negative sides. To his defence, he's aware of many of them, but it's hard to change what might be hard-coded genetically into yourself. Poor treatment in his school didn't make things better. Most of the negative sides should and can be overlooked for most of the time, whilst a few are galling enough that one wants to tell him about it. Aggressively. :D

Ah, well. I'm sure the issue will solve itself as the GK player goes for an alliance (which is his best bet for limiting his 40k collection since he sincerely wants both GK and Adepta Sororitas), even if this alliance army de facto would prove to be more powerful than the pure GK army he would have otherwise collected.

Thank you all for your thoughts and advice. We appreciate them.

Glad to see you guys are working it out! I agree friends are worth more than warhammer!

Ironbone
26-11-2013, 21:11
CSM have the tools they need to make a GK player sweat
Baledrake, and...baledrake :p ? Tradiotional rape-machine of flying deamonic weapon demon prince isn't that great against agaist GK. Nurgle Uglyterators are more than decent too, but again, there is no army that they are not good against.


I agree friends are worth more than warhammer!
Quoted for truth :D.

Karak Norn Clansman
26-11-2013, 21:47
I just have to say that I can understand the CSM player. Back when the GKs were released I almost quit 40k entirely. The mere existence of that codex seriously reduced my enjoyment of the game.
It's a bit like a fighting game ala Street Fighter. If there is one character that is much better than everyone else, the game cannot become a hit, or even popular. Even if someone says "Well as long as no one uses him the game is really awesome", the game is still ruined.

Combine that with the bitchslap that the current CSM book is, and I'm not surprised that it is specifically a CSM player that wants to veto the GKs (even if Daemons are even more screwed than CSM against GKs).

However, I must say again that I met a really nice guy (bf of my gfs classmate) who plays GKs, and every game has been fun, even if he includes double DKs and a Vindicare. You should tell your CSM playing friend that. They are not as bad on the tabletop as they seem on paper. And if you know you are facing them, it's easy to just include some Oblits and Termies and you will give them a run for their money. Just as long as you can kill the Dreadknights before they can get into cc (where the CSM instant-suicide rule will make the fight a forgone conclusion), and shoot down the Vindicare (who is fearless so can't go to ground, and has a range that you can probably stay of if you need to) before he kills all your vehicles, then it's game on.

I mean, CSM termies with poweraxes will make shot work of GK Termies, who need to buy daemonhammers (which they often include one or two of) to have any chance of standing up to them. And combiplasmas on said Termies will make mincemeat of most stuff in a GK list too.

CSM have the tools they need to make a GK player sweat, so tell him not to worry about it. Also, Murder Sword is great fun to throw at a Dreadknight.
And if he continues to whine, buy him a Vindicator for Christmas! :p

Very good points. He already have a Vindicator, which tore chunks out of my SM/Squat army during our last game. It should work as well against Grey Knights. Dreadknights will probably not show up. Or at least not unconverted, since the GK-player to be finds their baby carriage ridiculous.

Just in case anyone wonders, this is not a major issue. The "vetoed" GK-wannabe player have been as calm about it as everyone else, and he'd still have found willing opponents in me and my brother if he'd gone for a pure GK force. I just thought it a shame if he would start something else than what he likes the most. Using GK models as Space Marines or Space Wolves were one of the options, but not the best one (especially not for WYSIWYG tournaments). Another simple option would be to use house rules to limit the worst excess, which was the reason for this thread.

Ironbone
26-11-2013, 21:58
use house rules to limit the worst excess
Well, house rules can fix a lot of issues, but probles is, their usage is very limited to few players. And they twist the game, wich is not neccesary bad, but playing on house rules ( especialy ones that heavily mod the game ) is kind of playing a diffrent game. Don't get me wrong, I like useing own rules form time to time ( duh, I'm even wrighting a IG fan-dex :p), but to learn how to better play this game, I concider "pure" rules as only option. If this means facing uterrly broken armies, then so be it. And even then, i don't blame player for using such list, but one who wrote and thus, allowed this rules to be used.

It should be simple respect for others person willingness to having fun with game that should self-restrain people for fielding worst that armies can offer.

Arguleon-veq
26-11-2013, 23:06
What makes me laugh with this is that Chaos are much more competitive than Grey Knights now anyway[not that they are broken either]. Draigowing was never the scary GK build, it was the 3-6 Psyrifle Dreads, 6+ Psybacks 6x3 Acolytes and Coteaz. With the changes to tanks the list died off. A mate of mine was running the scary GK build at tournaments in 5th and obviously doing very well with it, he tried it out in quite a friendly 6th ed tournament and lost badly in 4 out of 5 games. It just doesn't cut it anymore.

You can still make a good list with them but it wont be powerful or game breaking and nothing to make a player refuse to play them over, especially when that player can take Bale Drakes which can probably beat most of a Grey Knight army on its own if he is running Strike Squads.

I actually think that if you want to make a fun list, Grey Knights are a really good choice thanks to how different you can make henchmen squads and mix them in an army with power armoured models and even troop choice termies. I played a great SW/GK army at a tournament a few months back who's theme was some feral world tribe led by their space marine rulers. He had some awesome looking treeman thing [not the WHFB one] as a dreadknight, great looking celtic models converted up as his henchmen squads [coteaz in the list] then space wolves to lead them.

AngryAngel
29-11-2013, 05:29
I'd have to say GK are strong but not OP anymore. For reasons that have been listed already. A lot of the OP elements about their book they've lost with switching editions and even with FAQs this edition. I don't think this makes them weak by any stretch just not nearly as good, as perhaps they once were. Changing editions and increasing codex capability will do that to you though.

InstantKarma
29-11-2013, 19:12
40k, Fantasy, Lord of the Rings, Specialist Games: Long ago, the gamers used to live in harmony. Then, everything changed when Matt Ward's codex attacked. Only Andy Chambers, master of all four elements of a fun codex could stop it, but when the world needed him most, he vanished!

A couple of editions passed, and my neckbeard and I discovered the new Andy Chambers, a codex writer called Vetock, and although his codex writing skills are great, he has a lot to learn before he's ready to save anyone...

But I believe Vetock can save the hobby!

*****


This made my day. I love Codex: Dark Angless and my Tau got the Vetock treament as well (though Riptide spam is giving us a bad name:shifty:). I do have hopes for Mr. Vetock. Philly Kelly's dexes should also be in there with Mr. Vetock.

As for GKs, they have really toned down, even on the casual pick-up game level of play. If your buddy likes them, have him go for it.

cswang
30-11-2013, 01:45
This made my day. I love Codex: Dark Angless and my Tau got the Vetock treament as well (though Riptide spam is giving us a bad name:shifty:). I do have hopes for Mr. Vetock. Philly Kelly's dexes should also be in there with Mr. Vetock.

As for GKs, they have really toned down, even on the casual pick-up game level of play. If your buddy likes them, have him go for it.

I'm not holding out any hope for Vetock whatsoever. The man believes that 40K 6th Edition made shooting weaker and vehicles more survivable. He was surprised when somebody brought up at a Gamesday that Tau Markerlights and the Supporting Fire rule meant assault armies were facing units Overwatching at their full Ballistic Skill.

Ruination Drinker
30-11-2013, 06:00
I smashed DraigoWing in 3 turns the last time I played it with my 4 battlewagon list.