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Boss Zagstruk
23-11-2013, 12:07
I really fancy starting a daemon army. The range is wonderful and I love the amount of plastic kits you can get. Im aware there are some issues with the rule book and power level from what ive read in the past but it's also gonna be a modelling project too. I just cant decide between nurgle or tzeentch. I want to build a 1500pt army.

pros of nurgle seem to be beasts and flys and a solid core with herald support.but they are slow and at 1500pts I think ill only get a lvl 1 herald.

Pros of tzeentch are they are magic heavy, I can have 2 lvl 2 heralds with metal plus horrors. Screamers n chariots seem kwl too. Downsides are limited combat n warpfire which I can counter.

Need help ppl. Thanks

Mozzamanx
23-11-2013, 12:15
If it is one or the other, Nurgle is absolutely 100% the stronger option. There really is no comparison to be made here: Plaguebearers are the best core, Beasts are contenders for best unit in the game and Heralds of Nurgle are the only real choice for a BSB. Meanwhile the very nature of a Tzeentch army being made of wizards means that every unit is clawing at a limited pool of Power Dice that you cannot really control. A bad Wind of Magic roll will see you lose to the Reign of Chaos, lose your magic phase *and* lose all offensive output for the turn. Put simply, you may as well skip the turn based on a 2D6 roll you cannot help. You can also add anything with Dragonbane or fire resistance onto the list of 'Units I have no counters for' which can simply write off some games in a tournament.

That said, style over substance. If you love Tzeentch then no amount of winning with Nurgle should change that. As always rules change and power levels get flipped, but the core of the army stays relatively consistent. Tzeentch may end up on top a little way down the line.

underscore
24-11-2013, 09:58
I personally think they're each the worst choices to go mono with:

Tzeentch:
Just too damned random. I mean, I like random (I play Daemons and Skaven) but each time I've played mono-Tzzentch it's been too much. More than any of the other Gods the way the army is set up feels like a 40k army that's been really poorly translated into Fantasy:

There's not enough magic dice to make the most of your 'shooting'.
You have to take more Warpflame tests as it's per phase.
Almost everything is random strength.
Flamers are just depressing.

To sum up my issue: I played a couple of mini-events with the army - both times my first game would be a 20-nil victory as I manage to get my spells off, I get Gateway on a unit of Horrors (probably the best thing that can happen to you in a game!), Reign of Chaos gifts me a new unit on my first or second turn, which also gives me a ton of PD to play with, getting all the magic dice means my Lord of Change is now better than a Bloodthirster...

Then the next two games I get tabled as suddenly the dice turn the other way. When I need a spell to get off I roll something pathetic for the strength, 2 bad Winds of Chaos rolls in a row will leave a lot of your army unable to do much AND probably have a worse ward save or have taken an Instability test.


Nurgle:
I have less to say about this as I don't really play them myself (don't like the models), but every time I've seen them play it's always turned into a pretty boring grind-fest as nothing. will. die. You'll win games and have a more reliable army, but it's just not that fun, imo.

(though as a note, the Nurgle armies I've seen have been a bit more power-gamey. Others may have different experiences)


I've had much more fun going either mono-Slaneesh or Khorne or a mixture. I want to love Tzeentch, but I just wasn't enjoying myself enough. Mixed into an army I'm quite happy with them - they almost act as a kind of reserve force for when the Winds love you, or they act as a good possible threat to your opponent. He could ignore them and be fine, or he could ignore them and suddenly get smashed by something unexpected.

Meanwhile your other God's units aren't as phased and get to do their thing (i.e. running around the board annoying people as Slaneesh, or Khorne stuff getting stuck in). You still have plenty of odd random stuff going on, but you don't get the massive 'table or be tabled' effect of mono-Tzeentch.

Blimey, I didn't mean to type that much!

Mullitron
24-11-2013, 10:32
Personally,I would base the decision on which core unit models you like the most. Daemons don't have a rank and file special or rare choice so the majority of your models will come from your core choice. That or if a particular greater daemon model appeals to you.
Tactically, as already said nurgle is considered more competitive (I believe) but the fact your aiming to take a mono god list suggests to me your not aiming for an army that's solely designed to win tournaments. You may also want to consider lore selection to aid you in your decision; taking only one god will limit you to only two lores for all your games. So if the lore of metal seems limiting, but the idea of assassinating enemy characters with lore of death appeals to you then that can help you find a favorite.

thesoundofmusica
24-11-2013, 11:37
How is your local meta?
If this is for an all comers army then nurgle is the stronger choice albeit somewhat boring. Just my opinion.

However if you play in a group that is lore of death heavy you will see your themed nurgle army all but destroyed to a lucky Psun or three.

Edit: I went all Khorne myself. I like the general look of Khorne, I like the cannons and the killy flier. A horde of unbreakable(ish) bloodletters is no joke to destroy and grab points off. Sure they could be a point cheaper but on the whole they do just fine. So what I'm trying to say is that if this is also a paint and modelling project then go with whatever models/look you like the most. You'll have good and bad matchups with tzeentch same as with nurgle.

Tato
26-11-2013, 21:45
If this is just a choice beetween Nurgle or Tzeentch as asked in first post, mono Nurgle is a more competetive answer by far. However, why limit your army to mono? A combined force Nurgle/Tzeentch is very powerful and fun too. If you are really stuck on a mono-god list my experience shows that, listing from top, the strongest are: Nurgle, Khorne, Tzeentch, Slaanesh.

Nurgle:
I have less to say about this as I don't really play them myself (don't like the models), but every time I've seen them play it's always turned into a pretty boring grind-fest as nothing. will. die. You'll win games and have a more reliable army, but it's just not that fun, imo.

I can't agree. Mono Nurgle is full of options. You can go grind-fest of course with a horde of Herald supported PB's, but you can also opt for magic heavy (and that includes most feared lore as well) or for fast flanking with BoN and Rot Flies or the odd DP, msu's supported by nurgle furies, go shooty with the Soul Grinder...

Oh, and the new techical paints (just used them this weekend ) are probably designed solely for Nurgle collectors :)

Treg Almighty
27-11-2013, 05:33
Like others have said papa nurgle is a winner with the new book.. but why limit yourself to only one.

When I started daemons I wrote a mono nurgle list but due to the wicked model range, I now have units from the whole Pantheon. The army has good variety and is fun to play, but the best bit is that I dont feel that I am painting a whole army, as every unit I paint is unique, keeping me interested in getting the army done.

Tzeentch plus nurgle would be a nice combo as there is some really fast Tzeentch units complemented by some really cheap magic missiles if you use horrors.

Because nurgle is so difficult to move you dont need magic to buff them so your horrors can fling magic damage at the enemy and your herald can take lore of metal to deal with armour....

Sent from my GT-I9305 using Tapatalk

Treg Almighty
27-11-2013, 05:35
Oh and gateway on a unit of 10 horrors make me happy!

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fiRE120
02-12-2013, 12:16
I have to agree that Nurgle seems strongest. However it sounds like that does not matter that much to you, otherwise you would just choose a mixed army I guess.

I believe tzeench would be more challanging but also more fun to play in the long run since nurgle seems really one-dimensional to me (you can tank a ton of hits and can deal different amounts of damage depending on the unit) tzeench just seems to have more options. Since you will get more magic and a shoiting phase.

But as always you should play what feels best for you.

fishound7
02-12-2013, 19:08
I've been playing mono tz. Its not nearly as terrible as people make it out to be. Flamers are trashy and not worth it. Maybe if your meta has a lot of t3 opponents then it might be more worth it. It plays like a bizarro wood elf style of play.

naloth
08-12-2013, 18:16
I've been playing mono tz. Its not nearly as terrible as people make it out to be. Flamers are trashy and not worth it. Maybe if your meta has a lot of t3 opponents then it might be more worth it. It plays like a bizarro wood elf style of play.

I've been trying Tz a bit lately too... Horrors are rather meh. Flamers are overcosted (or just too inaccurate). Heralds on Chariots are a boon that are almost broken (+10 points over a regular burning chariot and all you sacrifice is flamer!). Soulgrinders are good no matter which marks you have on them.

I'm not sure about Screamers (d3 wounds to monsters is great, but at S4 wounding them is pretty hard) since they have a decent profile except for wounds (2?) and are WB instead of MB (fairly large flyers rather than cavalry bases). The flyover attack would be decent but half of what you roll miss. I'd much rather they be S5, hit once automatically when flying over, an were MB instead of WB.

Magic is a mixed bag. With 2-3 hero chariots, 3ish units of horrors, you can reliably channel 1-2 dice and roll quite a few spells on 1 die (3+ pink fire).

underscore
08-12-2013, 22:36
What is it you like about Heralds on Chariots? I can't say I've ever had any joy with them - a disc at least has manoeuvrability on it's side, a Horror bunker makes sense as well, but I can't see what a Chariot offers a character you want to keep as far away from combat as humanly(/daemonly) possible.

Brother Haephestus
09-12-2013, 00:04
Need help ppl. ThanksLets talk about your playstyle. If you are a brute force type of player, I think you will want Nurgle. If you want a bit more finesse and having to outthink your opponent, then Tzeentch. As to modeling projects, I think Nurgle gives more options, and you can do a lot of conversions and modelcraft. Either way, both will be a good time. I've been avoiding mono and I've had a pretty good go of it.

naloth
09-12-2013, 02:15
What is it you like about Heralds on Chariots? I can't say I've ever had any joy with them - a disc at least has manoeuvrability on it's side, a Horror bunker makes sense as well, but I can't see what a Chariot offers a character you want to keep as far away from combat as humanly(/daemonly) possible.

The Tz burning chariot has the Exalted Flames of Tz (variable S flame cannon that can also grapeshot). Presumably the HoT can fire it when he replaces the Flamer, making it a wizard mobile platform and an artillery piece. Given that you end up with a separate fragile character on top that has fewer attacks at a lower weapons skill (but is a lvl2 wizard), it's more of a way to pack in extra chariots.

underscore
09-12-2013, 06:51
Ah no, it's the Exalted Flamer who has those shooting attacks, not the chariot itself (check the first line of the Exalted Flames rule). You lose them when he gets replaced.

siccore
09-12-2013, 12:19
Tzeench is got bad written rules. like warpflame. this is bs all the way. take nurgle if you want to win with good and logic rules. take epidemus and you have an autowin army

naloth
10-12-2013, 01:12
Ah no, it's the Exalted Flamer who has those shooting attacks, not the chariot itself (check the first line of the Exalted Flames rule). You lose them when he gets replaced.

It's poorly worded. I've seen it ruled both ways. The Exulted Fire is definitely a property of the chariot but the specific rule says that the Flamer fires it. When a Herald replaces him as crew it could either mean he's now the firer or that the attack can't be made. The latter interpretation is hardly overpowered in comparison to other chariots, but it is a reasonably good deal. The former essentially makes it pointless since being a chariot that you probably don't want get into combat is a much worse deal then putting him on a disc.

fishound7
10-12-2013, 02:12
Man... I really hope that the herald on the burning chariot could fire the exalted fire... If it does I'd definitely take a herald on a burning chariot. Those chariots are money. I don't think you can but... The herald on the chariot imo looks awesome. I wish there was a definitive answer on that.

underscore
10-12-2013, 06:53
It's poorly worded.
Nah, it's very clearly worded. 'During the shooting phase the Flamer can shoot either Pink Fire or Blue Fire' in the chariot rules and 'The Herald of Tzeentch replaces the Exalted Flamer' in the army list selection.

Edit: Ah, I see what you mean, does the Herald replace the Flamer as the being that fires the Chariot's attack? Considering there's whole bits in the unit description about the Flamer being the one doing the shooting, I'd still call that filthy rules lawyering. Not to mention the model ifself, which has the Flamer being the one bellowing a massive ball of Warpflame. Either way the rule still states that only The Flamer can shoot the attacks.

naloth
10-12-2013, 13:35
I'd still call that filthy rules lawyering. Not to mention the model ifself, which has the Flamer being the one bellowing a massive ball of Warpflame. Either way the rule still states that only The Flamer can shoot the attacks.

The same can be made for the counter argument. The Chariot very clearly has special cannon rule (not the Flamer) and the Flamer is the only crewman so his BS is used to fire it. If it's worded for normal usage and the Herald replaced the Flamer in all ways as crew, then it's "filthy rules lawyering" to argue that the chariot's cannon cannot be fired.

Lacking a proper clarification, I would discuss with judges or whomever you are playing with and simply explain that you'll bring multiple Skullcannons instead (which are still better than HoT mounted Burning Chariot) of this if it's not the proper reading.

underscore
10-12-2013, 13:45
But in that case the rule would specify the crew, not the Flamer.

Edit: Saying 'filthy rules laywering' was probably a bit harsh on my part actually - I meant to point out that everything else about how the unit works says points towards the Flamer being the one to generate the flames, not the chariot. Trying to argue otherwise is just trying to bend that with a rather odd reading of the rules, is what I meant.

naloth
10-12-2013, 14:21
But in that case the rule would specify the crew, not the Flamer. That's partially why it's poorly worded. It says flamer, but not Exhaled Flamer, crew, or even a limit on who can fire it. The top part may be fluff about who fires it (since there is only one crewman) rather than rules limiting who can fire it.


Edit: Saying 'filthy rules laywering' was probably a bit harsh on my part actually - I meant to point out that everything else about how the unit works says points towards the Flamer being the one to generate the flames, not the chariot. Trying to argue otherwise is just trying to bend that with a rather odd reading of the rules, is what I meant.
It seemed a little judgmental (filthy being anything that disagrees) especially since the rules (not looking at the model or reading fluff) say the Exalted Flames are a chariot rule while some of the others (such as Warpflame) are marked "Exalted Flamer only".

Anyway, we could take this to rules if you want other input. My experience is that some consider it the way you've presented (the rule cannot be used without a flamer present) and some consider it the other way (any crew can fire it, it's just usually the flamer). It's best to check how it will be played where you're playing.

Wulfrun
12-12-2013, 21:02
We use it as a chariot rule down here in aus, but I still don't overly play the model anyway (despite its awesomeness). Back to the topic at hand I agree with everyone above that nurgle is by far the easiest daemon army to play with to get wins but I have seen many a skilled general bring Tzeentch to victory. The main thing with tzeentch is speed and concentrated fire, if the whole army is firing warpflame at the one target and destroys it to all buggery then it doesnt matter really if one or two models get a small regen boost when your gonna blast em to the grave next turn. The best way to play is by attacking small units of elite troops, or even better chaff to bring up wounds off your magic to make more screamers/horrors, growing your force to a point where you have a relatively big horror unit you can charge into the fray if all goes to hell. The only problem (if played impeccably) will be hordes and then hopefully you still have enough stuff to wittle them down or just that many creatures firing by then it doesnt matter and you will blast them to all hell. Very effective if played by skilled generals.

Daenerys Targaryen
15-12-2013, 12:56
That's partially why it's poorly worded. It says flamer, but not Exhaled Flamer, crew, or even a limit on who can fire it. The top part may be fluff about who fires it (since there is only one crewman) rather than rules limiting who can fire it.


It seemed a little judgmental (filthy being anything that disagrees) especially since the rules (not looking at the model or reading fluff) say the Exalted Flames are a chariot rule while some of the others (such as Warpflame) are marked "Exalted Flamer only".

Anyway, we could take this to rules if you want other input. My experience is that some consider it the way you've presented (the rule cannot be used without a flamer present) and some consider it the other way (any crew can fire it, it's just usually the flamer). It's best to check how it will be played where you're playing.

Go look at the 40k version where it very cleary states that the Blue/Pink Fire is only usable by the Exalted Flamer..

Considering the extreme length GW went to keep all of our units as identical as possible in terms of stats/abilities/special rules as possible, it would be a truly massive screw-up if the same Chariot upgrade worked in only one version but not the other.

Even as bad as the wording is in the Fantasy book, it still implies that the Exalted Flamer is the only one who can make use of the Blue/Pink Fire. (and the model itself also 100% supports this as well)
A Herald of Tzeentch is a Herald, not a Flamer in any sense.