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Thorin Hubertson
23-11-2013, 17:50
Was Horus really worth the title of "Warmaster"? It seems he was not that much of a talented strategist.
Let's face it, after the "coming out" of the legions and the declaration of loyalities on Isstvan V, he had all the relevant advantages on his side: surprise (as the Imperium did not yet really know what was going on), mobility (as Warlord of chaos, the Warp will have been his domain) and numbers (having lost the Loyalists on Isstvan III, which amount to about one Legion, and having received the remains of the Thousand Sons, which were more of a reinforced chapter, while at the same time having destroyed the better part of three loyalist Legions).
What did he do? Alpha Legion attacking White Scars and Space Wolves, Iron Warriors intercepting Imperial Fists, part (!) of the Word Bearers raiding the Ultramarines, Night Lords hunting Dark Angels, while the larger part of his forces (EC, WE, DG, TS, SoH Legions) moved to Mars.
Shouldn't he have grouped all of his legions in two or three groups and have hunted down and destroyed the loyalist legions, instead of just tying them down with one-on-one-attacks? This would possibly have given the Imperium time to reorganice, but what can any number Imperial Guard do, if a whole Space Marine Legion attacks?

yabbadabba
23-11-2013, 18:32
1) GWs writers over the decades are not Master Strategists, and are unikley to have wanted to work out what that would have been
2) The Horus Heresy has at its heart a romantic ideal reflected in many other myths, romances and fantasy fictions
3) IT probably wouldn't have made as good a story.

Chem-Dog
23-11-2013, 18:44
This supposes that the loyalists are static targets rather than powerful mobile armies each headed up by their own demigod leader, in each of his choices Horus was playing his brothers as much as he was doing anything else. Remember he got to Terra and besieged her, you can't besiege a planet unless you're reasonably sure reinforcements aren't going to suddenly arrive behind you leaving you stuck between two enemy forces. The impetus for Horus' gambit of dropping his flagship's Voids allowing the Emperor and friends to Teleport aboard was in direct response to to the impending threat of the combined might of Several Loyalist legions making all speed to break the siege.

I'm not sure that "Warmaster" is a title that simply means "the bestest at war" because several of the other Primarchs were more accomplished at certain aspects than Horus, what he was was the perfect blend of the qualities needed in a general, Inspirational in a way Guilleman couldn't achieve, Statesman beyond the capacity of Dorn and so on. The plan was that he would have the strength and qualities to marshal his brothers when the Emperor retired from the crusade. He was also the one Primarch that understood most about the Emperor's aspirations, thus intended to be the one Primarch who could be relied upon to steer the crusade on in the way the Emperor had wanted.

I will say though, of all of the strategic incompetence you seem to be lying at Horus' feet, the guy was a gnat's gonad away from killing the Emperor, but for a chance intervention and a moment of clarity and resolve.

Knifeparty
23-11-2013, 19:08
The general rule of thumb is that you need to outnumber the enemy a ratio of 10:1 to be successful in a siege. Nevermind that that you are trying to besiege the most heavily defended planet in the galaxy bolstered by the greatest defence tactician to ever live (Dorn) manned by 4 legions of Space marines (Blood Angels, White Scars, Imperial Fists, Raven Guard), the Custodial Guard of the Emperor, War titans, untold billions of Imperial Guard, a moon that was retrofitted into a Battle station, and the Mutha ****in big E himself.

I'd say that more than anything, Horus's brothers let him down. Horus was not the one who failed here (except 1 on 1 with the Emperor). The Word Bearers, Thousand Sons, Night Lords and half of the Dark Angels all failed to hold off the Ultramarines, Space Wolves, and Dark Angels for long enough to take Terra.

Whether or not they knew what the real plan was or just got unintentionally caught up in Horus's web, the point is the Ultramarines and Space Wolves hammered the Word Bearers and Thousand Sons pretty hard. I think Horus was counting on more of a fight considering he had the upper hand and the benefit of surprise.

Son of Sanguinius
23-11-2013, 19:22
I always took Horus' main strategy to be the element of surprise. He isolates the Legions he deems major immediate threats, destroys some of the others in a trap, and then tries to take Terra before resistance can regroup. If he waits and tries to systematically annihilate the other legions, there will inevitably be survivors who can flee to Terra's sanctuary, as well as rumors and news that travels faster than any spacebound ship. Remember that Istvaan was seen by parts of the Imperium, even through the veil the gods created, so it's not like Horus can skulk around the galaxy assassinating whole legions without anyone knowing. Furthermore, head-on Legion conflicts, even with 3 to 1 odds, sounds like suicide for the overall objective. Sure, Horus would probably win, but how much of his grand army is intact when he gets to Terra?

And, of course, there's always the issue that, to an unintended degree, his strategy actually worked. He mortally wounded the Emperor and devastated the Imperial defenses. He just didn't plan on getting himself destroyed in the process.

The Illuminated
23-11-2013, 19:22
I'd say that more than anything, Horus's brothers let him down. Horus was not the one who failed here (except 1 on 1 with the Emperor). The Word Bearers, Thousand Sons, Night Lords and half of the Dark Angels all failed to hold off the Ultramarines, Space Wolves, and Dark Angels for long enough to take Terra.

Exactly; his brothers really dropped the ball in their assigned tasks.

Lorgar failed to truly cripple - or kill - the Ultramarines. Despite being a Primarch-sorcerer with demonic aid, and specially crafted ships designed to dominate an entire sector force by themselves.

Kurze lost his game of cat and mouse against the Lion, and had his Legion's back broken; almost losing his head in the process to boot.

Angron was a maelstrom of gore that couldn't be controlled, and was more of a hindrance than a help. Stupidly charging into battles, ignoring orders, and dragging out decisive strikes into month-long sieges, all so that he can roleplay that he's a character from the Fantasy setting.

Perturabo had a chance to cripple most of the Imperial Fists before they could entrench upon Terra, and was simply outplayed by a rank and file Astartes tactically.

Fulgrim served only himself, and his Legion was too busy commiting atrocities upon the population of Terra, rather than try to besiege the palace.

Magnus was pouting, refusing to help, despite being a daemon-prince.

Mortarion is Mortarion. The list goes on and on! :p

Khorneguy
23-11-2013, 21:06
The original plan was to not even let the Emperor know he was coming, to purge the loyalists within their ranks at Istvann III and then head straight to Terra before the Imperium even knew the danger, with his forces intercepting and tying up the loyalist legions so they couldn't intervene before the Emperor fell.

One thing messed it up for him though: The Eisenstein.

Word got out and brought the Imperium down on him before he was ready. From what I can tell, the Drop Site Massacres didn't even figure in his original plans, since he only started preparing for it after word of Istvann III slipped out. Everything since then has been him pretty much improvising. He expected to be able to pick off the Legions in the way you said - two or three groups of his forces picking off the legions one by one, but he couldn't because of the warning which reached the Imperium

passwordman
24-11-2013, 07:14
The general rule of thumb is that you need to outnumber the enemy a ratio of 10:1 to be successful in a siege. Nevermind that that you are trying to besiege the most heavily defended planet in the galaxy bolstered by the greatest defence tactician to ever live (Dorn) manned by 4 legions of Space marines (Blood Angels, White Scars, Imperial Fists, Raven Guard), the Custodial Guard of the Emperor, War titans, untold billions of Imperial Guard, a moon that was retrofitted into a Battle station, and the Mutha ****in big E himself.

I'd say that more than anything, Horus's brothers let him down. Horus was not the one who failed here (except 1 on 1 with the Emperor). The Word Bearers, Thousand Sons, Night Lords and half of the Dark Angels all failed to hold off the Ultramarines, Space Wolves, and Dark Angels for long enough to take Terra.

Whether or not they knew what the real plan was or just got unintentionally caught up in Horus's web, the point is the Ultramarines and Space Wolves hammered the Word Bearers and Thousand Sons pretty hard. I think Horus was counting on more of a fight considering he had the upper hand and the benefit of surprise.


As far as I'm aware the Raven Guard do not go to Terra, also a large number of those Imperial Guard turn traitor when Horus arrives. Luthor has about a quarter of the Dark Angels on his side, but his fight with the Lion is after the heresy. The Thousand Sons were simply trying to survive the Space Wolves attack before they were transported to the Eye of Terror. The Night Lords were doing quite well at distracting the Dark Angels until the Lion got ahold of the psyker/daemon/thing. The Word Bearers managed to complete their goal of making warp travel to Terra pretty much impossible.

Passwordman

Marked_by_chaos
24-11-2013, 09:33
If you have read the forge world Horus heresy stuff, which is much more "realistic", you will be aware than even despite the massacre of the iron hands, salamanders and raven guard at istvaan 5 the traitors had taken huge casualties. Due in part to angron's stupidity at istvaan 3 and the huge battle even before the betrayal on istvaan 5.

The forge dispositions of the legions varied wildly but for example by the end of istvaan 5 the ultramarines alone must have been 5-6 times the strength of the emperor's children (hence the purpose of the drawing them into a fight at calth/ultramar).

As suggested above the purge on istvaan 3 was not a success and the traitors were perhaps responding to events to a degree after that.

I also think we need to wait for some of the further books to see why the progress to terra was so slow as there has been little explanation for this previously. I suspect it is not so easy as to warp jump a number of legions, army groups and titan legions into Terran orbit from the eastern fringe.

Perhaps Horus was either not thinking his best anyway in light of the influence of chaos or was naturally cautious fighting his father and all powerful creator. He would be right to do so. They way the background comes across to me, when the emperor belatedly came out of his "study" he was the match of Horus (and in effect the channelled power of all 4 chaos gods) whilst holding something back (to his own physical detriment), and only when he realised the terrible and pitiable corruption of Horus did he unleash his full power, obliterating Horus.

Insane Psychopath
24-11-2013, 09:42
As far as I'm aware the Raven Guard do not go to Terra,

Passwordman

Just put this on spolier tag just in case, but the novel Deliverance Lost should help

http://www.blacklibrary.com/horus-heresy/deliverance-lost.html

They do go back to Terra in the Heresy novel Deliverance Lost, so they could get help from the Emperor to rebuild there numbers after the Drop Site. Dorn did ask the Raven Guard Primarch if he'd stay & help his Legion defende Terra. But they refuse saying it not there way of war, they wanted to go out & make hit & run attack on Horus & those who followed him, from what I rememeber of the novel

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Raven_Guard


Upon escaping the tailing forces of World Eater's picket ships, "Avenger"[12] broke real-space into the warp, and headed for Terra.[12] Upon arriving Corax headed for the Imperial Palace, which was being fortified by Rogal Dorn and his Imperial Fists in preperation for the coming Siege (Siege of Terra), upon which after much argument with Dorn and Malcador the Imperial Regent, The Emperor himself boomed in a psychic voice for the arguing to cease and pulled Corax into a vision of extreme light, and showed him the secrets he had been asking for - The gene forging tech used to create the Primarch's by the Emperor himself.[12] After navigating the treacherous and dangerous contraption which was the ever shape-shifting maze on Luna, by using his advanced logic, and the skill of his sons to out-think its logic engine and freeze it in place, he retrieved the gene tech and returned to Deliverance under the watchful eye of the Adeptus Custodes (who were charged by Malcador to keep an eye on its safety).[12]

At first the Astartese created by the gene tech were a marvel, a splice of primarch and Astartese, but not in an imbalanced degree so as to cause malfunction, a perfect meld.[12] These new warriors were faster, stronger, and more intelligent than any of the older warriors of the Legion, and within a few weeks more aspirants had been successfully implanted with stable gene-seed than ever before (the new gene seed also meant that warriors matured into their new forms rapidly compared to standard Astartese).[12] The new warriors would be placed under the command of Captain Branne Nev under the moniker "Raptors", and would be used against a Word Bearer fortress as their first deployment, which would see them successfully slaughter veteran Word Bearers with the ease of much older warriors. Raptors would take injuries that would have killed even an Astartese, and still remain fighting due to their enhanced bodies.[12] Word of this reached the ears of Omegon, twin primarch of the Alpha Legion, whom had been laying dormant on Kiavahr below stirring up a rebellion amongst the tech guilds, and he sprung into action.[12]

The rebellion and even the Alpha Legionnaires supporting it were a distraction, while the Raven Guard were caught off guard, Omegon and several Alpha Legion operatives managed to covertly spike the gene tech with a daemon blood poison (while managing to keep the pure technology for themselves) using the Raven Guard gene-seed to produce deformed monsters.[12] The battle finally began as the first Raven Guard recruits to recieve the secretly spiked gene seed were implanted, and by the time it raged into the gene labs of Ravendelve, only to be met by deformed warriors created by the spiked gene seed's effects.[12] While deformed, these astartese still fought with otherworldly strength, overpowering even the Alpha Legion Astartese.[12] By the time the battle was over, Agents had been found amidst the legion, explaining how news reached the traitors about the gene tech, and thus the loss of such a boon to the crippled legion, gene screening was to be implemented to find and destroy the agents with the stolen faces of Raven Guard Legionnaires.[12] Without the gene tech the Raven Guard Legion remained a small legion, though their continued work with small cells of warriors allowed them to remain no less of a fighting force, though fewer in number then before. [12] When Roboute Guilliman announced his "Codex Astartes" which would split the legions into organised chapters, Corax was circumstantially forced to adapt to the new rules, Abliet still retaining his legions overall structure, but in smaller chapters of 1,000 Astartese, As is how the Raven Guard chapter is to this day.[12]

Poncho160
24-11-2013, 11:29
In my opinion, Horus organised the biggest military force ever known to man and out fought the entire Imperium to get to Earth and would have won, if it wasn't for two story driven reasons:

1. The Primarches (and their accompanying Legions) following him, were all written to have very different aspects. This was obviously done to differentiate the Primarches to the readers, but unfortunately for Horus the majority of them weren't fit to lead any body of men, let alone thousands of Space Marines. Lets face it, in no reality, would anyone have placed the mentally unfit Angron, Curze, Mortarion and a lot of the others in charge of a military force. Horus is the only proper Military leader out of the lot of them and his Wolves are the only proper military force. If Horus had proper, sane, Lieutenants, his campaign would have gone a lot easier.

2. Horus is the bad guy in the setting and no matter the amount of victories he has had before his battle with the Emperor, or the odds he has stacked in his favor, for the 40K univerese to exist as it does, he just cannot win.

Silversage
24-11-2013, 14:27
The original plan was to not even let the Emperor know he was coming, to purge the loyalists within their ranks at Istvann III and then head straight to Terra before the Imperium even knew the danger, with his forces intercepting and tying up the loyalist legions so they couldn't intervene before the Emperor fell.

One thing messed it up for him though: The Eisenstein.

Word got out and brought the Imperium down on him before he was ready. From what I can tell, the Drop Site Massacres didn't even figure in his original plans, since he only started preparing for it after word of Istvann III slipped out. Everything since then has been him pretty much improvising. He expected to be able to pick off the Legions in the way you said - two or three groups of his forces picking off the legions one by one, but he couldn't because of the warning which reached the Imperium

I do kind of agree with this, although I don't know if the traitors could have kept their betrayal a secret for too long anyway. But as the information leaked about immediately, a time limit was set for Horus. He simply could not have won a war with the behemoth known as the Imperium once it would have been fully awakened to the news of the treachery. He had to take action immediately and prevent the loyalists from grouping up and steamrolling his forces. Even after the events of Istvaan V the amount of Space Marines on either side was still not drastically in either side's favor, since the surviving, intact loyalist Legions were pretty huge. Horus' only chance of victory was to try to tarpit most of the loyalist Legions with diversions and then strike quickly to Terra, just like he did. It was a combination of stoic defense from the loyalists, his own crappy lieutenants and the purpose of the story that eventually defeated the traitors.

Scammel
24-11-2013, 14:46
I seem to recall it being made pretty clear in a few sources that Horus was on the back foot right from the off and that he would have lost a protracted war very badly - the race to Terra is an attempt to end it quickly and decisively before the Imperial juggernaught can get rolling. For all the might of Horus' forces, they lack any kind of actual territory and have a very finite amount of materiel. There's also the question of what Horus actually expected to do once he got to Terra. It's something Lorgar brings up about Horus expecting to just waltz into the throne room and somehow win.

Nazguire
24-11-2013, 21:59
I think in Horus' arrogance he probably did for a few moments think that once he got to Terra he'd have it all in the bag. Nothing about his personality suggests that he was humble enough to think seriously that once he got to Terra that he might not actually win, which I think Lorgar mentions in Betrayer as well. Something about that if Horus rocked up at Terra by himself he'd still throw open the throne room doors and expect to win.

Horus38
24-11-2013, 22:25
Shouldn't he have grouped all of his legions in two or three groups and have hunted down and destroyed the loyalist legions, instead of just tying them down with one-on-one-attacks? This would possibly have given the Imperium time to reorganice, but what can any number Imperial Guard do, if a whole Space Marine Legion attacks?

Answer: no he shouldn't have. The overall strategy Horus employs is the one which gave him the best chance at success in the least amount of time. Horus does not have the resources for a protracted war of attrition with the entire Imperium and needs to cause as much damage as possible with his initial betrayal surprise before following up with an attack on Terra all the while keeping his factitious followers in line.

m1acca1551
25-11-2013, 01:30
Horus wasn't the best general, I'd say that goes to the lion but he was the most inspirational, he was the brother that all brothers liked for the most part, so when awarded the title of warmaster the emperor was choosing the popular choice.

His failing at terra can be blamed on the generals who failed in his plans, the fact that the ultramarines weren't broken at Calth and still numbered amongst the largest legion, the space wolves the most adapt at legion killing and the DA led by Lion were all still pieces on the chess board.

I do remember Horus saying that if he had any one of the loyalist primarchs on his side he would have felt more assured if victory, he had shattered remnants of legions who were led by damaged primarchs who had there own agendas.

The alpha legion was doing there own thing, the NL were simply there for the sake of being there, the IW there because they hated the IF and Dorn, so you have 3 legions who I don't think were wholly involved heart and mind.

insectum7
26-11-2013, 17:28
Hard to retain a coherent force when said force is run by self-serving psychopaths.

And couldn't have fought a long war, Horus knows it and specifically jumps Terra before the UM could show up with their vast, vast Legion.

Archaon
26-11-2013, 20:26
In my opinion, Horus organised the biggest military force ever known to man and out fought the entire Imperium to get to Earth and would have won, if it wasn't for two story driven reasons:

1. The Primarches (and their accompanying Legions) following him, were all written to have very different aspects. This was obviously done to differentiate the Primarches to the readers, but unfortunately for Horus the majority of them weren't fit to lead any body of men, let alone thousands of Space Marines. Lets face it, in no reality, would anyone have placed the mentally unfit Angron, Curze, Mortarion and a lot of the others in charge of a military force. Horus is the only proper Military leader out of the lot of them and his Wolves are the only proper military force. If Horus had proper, sane, Lieutenants, his campaign would have gone a lot easier.



Why not?

Everyone has their merit and style.. Angron was brute force, plain and simple. He's like a sledgehammer.. you find a target to strike and swing the hammer. When it hits things get destroyed. Now the thing is that while Angron is a crazy killer at times his Legion was not.. they just excelled at direct attacks and that was their specialty.

The same applies to Space Wolves.. many see them as mindless barbarians who are just out for glory and the party afterwards but in reality they are very skilled hunters and warriors.

One might not confuse post-Heresy Primarchs with their prior selves.. they all had their quirks, strengths and weaknesses but each of one them was a capable military commander (even Lorgar who had the lowest conquer rate but that was because his focus was elsewhere) fit to lead their own unique Legion.

Additionally what would the Emperor do with them instead? He has poured considerable ressources into the Primarch Project and then have only 10% of them actually do something? What would the others do without a real purpose?

Menthak
28-11-2013, 02:23
How many other primarchs have managed to kill the Emperor after already killing Sanguinious? (or more or less kill him).

Also is he any worse than the other Traitor-Primarchs? Actually I personally would have picked Pertuarbo to co-ordinate the Siege, but that's just me.

Nazguire
29-11-2013, 03:55
How many other primarchs have managed to kill the Emperor after already killing Sanguinious? (or more or less kill him).

Also is he any worse than the other Traitor-Primarchs? Actually I personally would have picked Pertuarbo to co-ordinate the Siege, but that's just me.


When we get to the Siege finally, I think that we'll see this explained in more detail. I doubt Horus just rocked up and said 'OK guys, open slather, have fun down there.' and let them go pell mell at every thing. Perturabo no doubt would have been co-ordinating with the Titan Legions and Imperial Army traitors to bust open the wall as quick as possible, which supply points needed to be secured, etc

Idomeneus
29-11-2013, 17:12
Also, I think he still (misguidedly) hoped that if he took the throne of Terra, the loyalists would see sense, swear alliegance and return to the crusade. Remember Horus for much of the heresy saw the warp as the only way to save humanity, seemingly unaware of how it was changing him. To him, he was the good guy, and as soon as the others realised that, they would all get back together for lemonade and cookies. To destroy potential allies was anathema to him.

Asuryan's Spear
30-11-2013, 15:03
Okay, where does it say that the Lion was the better general? not being condescending, genuinely interested in this.
Horus was undoubtedly the master strategist. The Lunar Wolves/Sons of Horus had the largest amount of conquests of any legion.
I always thought of the Lion as the knight or crusader archetype rather than the general.

harlokin
30-11-2013, 23:48
Okay, where does it say that the Lion was the better general? not being condescending, genuinely interested in this.
Horus was undoubtedly the master strategist. The Lunar Wolves/Sons of Horus had the largest amount of conquests of any legion.
I always thought of the Lion as the knight or crusader archetype rather than the general.

I believe its in Descent of Angels, or Fallen Angels. The Lion is portrayed as the consummate, calculating, military strategist, but lacking in empathy or charisma.

This depiction is somewhat altered by ADB in the later stories to emphasize The Lion's more knightly qualities.

Israfael
01-12-2013, 00:14
Okay, where does it say that the Lion was the better general? not being condescending, genuinely interested in this.
Horus was undoubtedly the master strategist. The Lunar Wolves/Sons of Horus had the largest amount of conquests of any legion.
I always thought of the Lion as the knight or crusader archetype rather than the general.

The Lion has the second greatest tally of victories right after Horus, despite being found much later than him.

It's always been the Lion's 'thing' that he was incredibly gifted tactically, but much colder, and far less charismatic than Horus. He's the unlikeable savant, whereas Horus is almost as gifted, but can make any man willing march into hell for him, without so much as a second-thought.

The Phazer
01-12-2013, 00:30
I think you have to remember that Horus has thrown his lot in with Chaos, and Chaos is inherently self destructive. And hence Horus and the others grabbed a quick source of power to make a lightning rush at the Emperor, but were ultimately undone by the fact that it drove some of them stark raving mad which made them do counterproductive things (Fulgrim, Angron etc).

Rufiodies
01-12-2013, 02:02
Horus had the most victories because of the way he would leave the planets after he won them, he'd smash the leadership, then leave the human parts of the expedition fleet to clean up and make the planet ready for imperial rule. I'm sure if they looked back, Horus' planets probably had the highest rates of rebellion in the years following their defeats. Where as Rowboat left the planets as these perfect model planets. I would see The Lion as leaving the planets highly productive, but lacking any real "finesse" as he lacked any social ability what so ever. The Lion and Horus were polar opposites in that regard.

I look at horus, not as the master strategist, but as the master manipulator, full of charisma and glory. He'd lead from the from front, inspire his men. The type of "follow you to hell and back" kinda leader. Kinda like Robert from game of thrones, great war leader, made people love him, his men loved him, that kinda stuff.

I feel like horus was made warmaster because he was the only primarch that could truly inspire the other primarchs. They would follow him because of how he fought and because of his ability to manipulate them. its stated many times in the HH novels how Horus would "fake" his emotion and reactions to his brothers actions and words. He'd put on a face and manip his brothers into doing what he wanted.
I think really he was a master at controlling his own emotions, he was an actor really.
Also I think its kinda shady when you look at his background, or lack there of, when he was so close to Terra and they even were training his space marines from his planet before they even found him. Hes like the anti christ, trained from birth to ruin the imperium, his childhood and life a bunch of secrets and lies.

Grubnar
01-12-2013, 18:03
If the Word Bearers had been able to stop (or just slow down) the Ultramarines ...

If the Alpha Legion had prevented the White Scars (and the Space Wolves) from reaching Terra ...

If the Night Lords had kept the Dark Angels tied up ...

If the Emperors Children had helped with the siege instead of just running wild ...

If the Iron Warriors had stormed the breach with the World Eaters instead of taking off to blow up the Imperial Fists Fortress Monastary ...

If the Death Guard had manged to re-take the spaceport from the White Scars ...

... then the victory of Horus had been complete!

(Ironicly, it seems to me that the only primarch that was reliable at the siege was the most un-reliable of them all ... Angron.)

Formerly Wu
01-12-2013, 20:03
(Ironicly, it seems to me that the only primarch that was reliable at the siege was the most un-reliable of them all ... Angron.)
Angron may not be reliable, but he is predictable. The Imperial Palace is huge, and has huge guts. Put him in front of it and he will rip and tear.

Idomeneus
02-12-2013, 11:05
Angron is perfectly reliable, so long as you only ask him to do tasks involving killing, maiming or burning. Anything else, he struggles with a bit.

Shadow Lord
02-12-2013, 12:07
Before the Heresy he was considered the greatest leader of them all, the guy who would've taken over after big E went into his retirementplan...but, he failed through a variety of reasons (writers of rule-books, BL books and GW ofc :shifty:) and therefore he cannot have been the best because he lost and died :cries:...in doing so, he (or more specific GW) has given us a story-driven game with OTT good guys and OTT bad guys...thus the real master-strategists are the employees of GW and Black Library...;)

Kor'Vesh
05-12-2013, 09:35
Also, I think he still (misguidedly) hoped that if he took the throne of Terra, the loyalists would see sense, swear alliegance and return to the crusade. Remember Horus for much of the heresy saw the warp as the only way to save humanity, seemingly unaware of how it was changing him. To him, he was the good guy, and as soon as the others realised that, they would all get back together for lemonade and cookies. To destroy potential allies was anathema to him.

I think there is a lot of truth in this comment. In attacking terra, Horus was just using the same tactics the Luna Wolves used on countless worlds. Sever the head and the body will die. I think truly believed if he took terra the other legions, and the rest of the imperium would fall in line, as this had always happened in his countless previous conquests. The fact he nearly pulled it off is impressive, but we all know that its pretty certain that none of the loyalist legions would have rolled over and taken Horus for emperor by this point. Horus was amusingly short sighted here, and its funny that accoring to an earlier poster, one of the 'lesser' generals, Lorgar, saw this flaw well before Terra. I think this show that he was a great stratergist, but he never truly understands the game he is playing after Istvaan.

Luxem
06-12-2013, 03:19
Horus was amusingly short sighted here, and its funny that accoring to an earlier poster, one of the 'lesser' generals, Lorgar, saw this flaw well before Terra. I think this show that he was a great stratergist, but he never truly understands the game he is playing after Istvaan.

Do you think that was the influence of Chaos (Like a celeb using drugs, or Hitlers decisions later on in WW2 after his drug abuse got to him etc...)

Or simply a matter of his circumstances or him feeling his hand was forced and it was "now or never".

Kor'Vesh
06-12-2013, 20:39
Probably both. I think he could only really ever see one way to achieve his goals, so his hand was certainly forced to attack as he did. I think that chaos began as a tool to Horus, but he was never in control and he got sucked further down into a position where he couldn't ever achieve victory in the way he originally planned. That make any sense?