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MajorWesJanson
23-11-2013, 17:51
Just some notes as I read through it:

IH rumored to be named Stormwalkers originally
Many more Iron Hands killed rushing to Istvaan and being caught in ambushes above the planet
After Ferrus's death, some factions of the IH reject the Clan Council, some turn to Tech Heresy that is later covered up and denied
Voice of Mars- official Admech embassy on Medusa, held by a trio of senior techpriests
Legio Covenentia. Traitor Titan legion, thrown back by IH armored force
Simulus Chamber- Artificial reality training device
Legio Ferrax "Iron Wolves" Titan legion- Forge World Columnus 30+ titans. 2 Reavers Dictat Ferrum and Sanctus Absolom destroyed by Ork Psyker attack
Raven Guard Shadow Captain Stenn. Killed by Orks on Columnus as bait for IH trap for Ork Warleader/wyrdboy cabal
Iron Hands don't trust Raven Guard, and will not fight in coordination with them
Astropaths can be placed in "stasis-storage" to replace losses
Warleader Kristos- Warleader of IH prior to Kristosian conclave 260-460.m41. No elected Warleader during conclave.
Iron Council must number 41 Iron Fathers exactly. All must be binary and noospheric capable
Warleader is elected for 1 year at a time, must be re-ratified each year
Heart of Iron Rhino that thinks it's a tank- took out a warbosses battlewagon with HK missile, damaged but self repaired and ran over and killed Warboss
Gaudinia Prime- factory world, population 362 billion
Sapphire King created as a result of Ferrus's death- created by his frustrated pride, shame, sorrow and rage at his murder by Fulgrim. SK's primary goal to frustrate and corrupt Iron Hands, corrupted Kristos and his followers by exploiting their repressed emotions- Stronos decides that cutting off emotions allows them to be corrupted, better to merely control them.
Emotional inhibitor implants
Nearly a third of Iron Council corrupted by Sapphire King- incident hidden from Inquisition
IH Chief Librarian Lydriik
Machine Bomb- massive numbers of corrupted machine spirits trapped, then released to destroy all machines on a world, including Necron tomb
Forge-chain Augmentic vertebrae- replace natural spine, different materials based on clan.
Grand Calculation- Iron Hands begin attempt to coordinate with successor chapters, including Sons of Medusa

Azazyll
24-11-2013, 17:16
Thanks Wes! That all sounds amazing!

Do they then have multiple masters of the forge? Do they have more on the C:SM fluff about Stronos trying to rebalance the Iron Council? Has this confirmed that Iron Fathers are just anyone on the council, rather than a particular kind of Chaplain?

So the Sapphire King isn't Ferrus himself, but is a product of his death, rather than a corrupted soul? Do they use a model for the Sapphire King? Does he work with Emperor's Children or (considering it sounds like he's not a former marine himself) is he primarily a Daemons character?

Thanks!

Formerly Wu
24-11-2013, 19:13
Iron Hands don't trust Raven Guard, and will not fight in coordination with them
Is this related to Corax retreating instead of supporting Ferrus on Isstvan V, or a more recent event?


Rhino that thinks it's a tank- took out a warbosses battlewagon with HK missile, damaged but self repaired and ran over and killed Warboss
Sounds like something that actually happened on the tabletop and was cool enough to get immortalized.

MajorWesJanson
24-11-2013, 21:40
Thanks Wes! That all sounds amazing!

Do they then have multiple masters of the forge? Do they have more on the C:SM fluff about Stronos trying to rebalance the Iron Council? Has this confirmed that Iron Fathers are just anyone on the council, rather than a particular kind of Chaplain?

So the Sapphire King isn't Ferrus himself, but is a product of his death, rather than a corrupted soul? Do they use a model for the Sapphire King? Does he work with Emperor's Children or (considering it sounds like he's not a former marine himself) is he primarily a Daemons character?

Thanks!

Iron Fathers were originally the tech-mystics who maintained the DAOT tech on Medusa. When Ferrus and the Legion arrived, the title was transferred to the marines who took care of the weapons, relics, and vehicles. When Ferrus died and the Iron Council was formed, it became a title for those marines who were members of the council, in addition to their normal role. It can be given to any marine of rank, captains, chaplains, librarians, even apothecaries and some vet sergeants, but a majority are techmarines and masters of the forge (specifically plural). Iron fathers can pull rank on anyone in the company that is not also an Iron Father. All clans have at least one, and it seems that there are Iron Fathers who are not attached to clans, as there are 41 total.

Stronos started his path of controlling emotions rather than using devices to actually suppress them when it turns out that the Sapphire King used that trait to grow in strength and corrupt a number of Iron Fathers and lesser Iron Hands in a trap. Releasing their emotions, instead of bottling them up, prevented the King from corrupting all of the Iron Hands present.

About 1/3 of the council was corrupted, a fact the IH hid from the Inquisition. The council nearly disintegrated, but Stronos made a speech about needing to control and master their emotions, rather than bury them, comparing emotions to the reactor that powers a titan. He started inducting more librarians and iron chaplains into the council as well, to try to push through the changes- instead of pure logic, they would temper it with controlled wrath.

Sapphire King is created by the emotions of Ferrus, and is not actually his soul. Daemon of Slaanesh, spends most of its time feeding on the repressed emotions of the IH and trying to tempt them into heresy in the guise of giving up weakness. Major trap for the IH that corrupted many of them, it led a large number of slaanesh daemons and some Emperor's Children. In the scenarios, it says to use a Keeper of Secrets for the Sapphire King.


Is this related to Corax retreating instead of supporting Ferrus on Isstvan V, or a more recent event?

Newer battle- defense against Ork invasion of a forge world. A RG Shadow captain offers intel and cooperation, and the Warleader at that time, Iron Father Kristos, refuses and tells him "The Raven Guard cannot be relied upon... Additional: Orks are no new foe to the Iron Hands, you know nothing that our battle simulations have not already told us. We will not fight alongside you, Shadow Captain Stenn, for it is in all we do as Iron Hands to avoid the fate suffered by our Primarch.’

Theocracity
25-11-2013, 02:54
Newer battle- defense against Ork invasion of a forge world. A RG Shadow captain offers intel and cooperation, and the Warleader at that time, Iron Father Kristos, refuses and tells him "The Raven Guard cannot be relied upon... Additional: Orks are no new foe to the Iron Hands, you know nothing that our battle simulations have not already told us. We will not fight alongside you, Shadow Captain Stenn, for it is in all we do as Iron Hands to avoid the fate suffered by our Primarch.’

Yup, it's sour grapes about Isstvan :D.

Horus38
25-11-2013, 03:42
*low whistle* some cool stuff, thanks man!

m1acca1551
25-11-2013, 06:16
I love the way the Iron Hands are being treated, they have been really brought out if the shadows and are now more than simple marines who are friendly with the mechanicus.

El_Machinae
25-11-2013, 12:44
That Sapphire King fluff really sounds cool. It'd be cool if the demon was just a 'rogue' demon that has found a really good meal-ticket and would just slowly grow in power over time.

Azazyll
25-11-2013, 14:40
The fluff on Stronos in C:SM seems to imply that one cannot be a captain of a company and an Iron Father at the same time. Is that the case? It now looks like clan ties are not severed by joining the Iron Fathers.

Do the different clans each have all the toys, are are there "reserve clans" - ie are they just codex by another name?

Thanks for all the info! I'm going to wait for hardcover to pick this up to add to my collection.

Idaan
25-11-2013, 15:44
I like the Sapphire King story. Finally someone built on the idea that daemons form from events, especially people's deaths.

Lord Damocles
25-11-2013, 18:21
To defeat the Necrons, banzai into the middle of them and hope that you've got the plot armour.

DarkSoldier
26-11-2013, 00:54
IH rumored to be named Stormwalkers originally
The IH writeup in Massacre states that "Storm Walkers" was a nickname given to the X Legion after the Battle of Rust, but wasn't adopted Legion-wide before Ferrus was found and remade the Legion in his image.

MajorWesJanson
26-11-2013, 03:57
The fluff on Stronos in C:SM seems to imply that one cannot be a captain of a company and an Iron Father at the same time. Is that the case? It now looks like clan ties are not severed by joining the Iron Fathers.

Do the different clans each have all the toys, are are there "reserve clans" - ie are they just codex by another name?

Iron Father is a title for those on the Iron Council, separate from being a Captain, who can be both. Iron Fathers are members of the council, including Iron Captains, Iron Chaplains, librarians, apothecaries, and a few veteran sergeants. Clan companies are lead by a captain, but the battle brothers will often follow the word of an Iron Father unless the Captain is also an Iron Father, resulting in the Iron Fathers in a clan making up sort of a company command council. Clan companies must have at least 1 Iron Father, most having 2-4. There are a total of 41 Iron Fathers, so some are not part of a clan, while many are. Stronos was originally a Techmarine, became an Iron Father, and later was elected Warleader after he took over when the previous Warleader Kristos and about 1/3 of the Iron Council were corrupted by a Chaos trap.

Clans- they have first company veterans, 10th company scouts, 8th company assault, so yes, they do seem codex.

Polaria
26-11-2013, 07:29
Machine Bomb- massive numbers of corrupted machine spirits trapped, then released to destroy all machines on a world, including Necron tomb


How powerfull deus ex machina solution was this described to be against Necron? Was it supposed to basically kill all Necrons planet-wide no matter what or...?

What I mean is that if its supposed to be some sort of end-all weapon against Necrons then the Clan Raukaan have apparently done something the Old Ones and the whole Eldar galactic civilization during millions of years on the apex of its power and technological expertise was unable to do. Which would be, to be honest, a bit silly...

Mechanicum spoiler
...unless you buy the Mechanicum (and 3rd Edition Necron Codex) explanation of a secret connection between a (a Shard of?) Void Dragon hidden inside a secret valley in Mars. In which case it would make perfect sense that the humans could come up with such a weapon. However, it would also open a whole new box of worms about Adeptus Mechanicum, C'Tan and Necrons...

MajorWesJanson
26-11-2013, 09:07
How powerfull deus ex machina solution was this described to be against Necron? Was it supposed to basically kill all Necrons planet-wide no matter what or...?

What I mean is that if its supposed to be some sort of end-all weapon against Necrons then the Clan Raukaan have apparently done something the Old Ones and the whole Eldar galactic civilization during millions of years on the apex of its power and technological expertise was unable to do. Which would be, to be honest, a bit silly...

Mechanicum spoiler
...unless you buy the Mechanicum (and 3rd Edition Necron Codex) explanation of a secret connection between a (a Shard of?) Void Dragon hidden inside a secret valley in Mars. In which case it would make perfect sense that the humans could come up with such a weapon. However, it would also open a whole new box of worms about Adeptus Mechanicum, C'Tan and Necrons...


It's kind of vague. The world was an ocean world before a massive tomb complex awoke and the oceans drained away. The tomb complex they attack is at the bottom of a trench 80 miles wide and 100 long. They drop in, set up their bomb, evacuate what they can from the hive cities, and then detonate it. "releasing howling swarms of insane machine spirits bent only on destruction" that corrode and destroy all mechanical systems in their path. "Weapons and bodies" of the Xenos burn, as do the weapons and systems of the Imperials left on the world, finally orbital (defense weapon I assume) silos explode and fill the skies with drifting radioactive clouds.

So it does a number on the Necrons and the world, but seems to be extremely indiscriminate. Possibly usable as an exterminatus scale weapon vs mechanical based targets though.

Polaria
26-11-2013, 10:47
If its something of an Exterminatus scale then its not so silly. The two-stage cyclonic torpedoes can already blow up the whole planet la Deathstar -style. :p

Rufiodies
26-11-2013, 10:51
KING KAI TAUGHT THE IRON HANDS THE SPIRIT BOMB!!!!
Its a Majin Goku Dark Spirit Bomb!

Some great fluff would be the missions to collect these machine spirits, you think they just ambush some iron warrior/dark mechanicus forge world and go ghostbusters on their asses? It almost seems like the eldar getting their spirit stones from the chaos crone worlds...

Scrapcode anyone? wouldn't this be the same thing? I find it hard to believe that almost any chaotic force with corrupted machine spirits could just destroy the necrons no problem... and they really should have kept that as their trump card, cause I doubt the Necrons will be as susceptible to that type of attack in the future.

SpanielBear
27-11-2013, 11:41
By the sounds of it, it wasn't so much that they were machine spirits that made them super effective, but that they were warp corrupted. Given that warp weaponry was the very thing used to 'win' the war in heaven in the first place, it is not surprising that Necrons remain susceptible to it.

Polaria
27-11-2013, 13:10
I thought mixing "technology" with "warp" was anathema to Adeptus Mechanicus and thus classified as Heretek of worst sort punishable by a minimum of permanent mindwipe and servitordom?

SpanielBear
27-11-2013, 13:40
This seems to steer pretty close to the wind, but I guess the argument Raukaan uses is that these were machine spirits corrupted by others, which would need to be exorcised any way. The tomb world now awakened would at the very least be declared perdita, if not a full exterminatus. This kills two metal birds with one virus.

Rogue Star
27-11-2013, 18:02
So this Tomb World's null-fields were disabled first or something?

The bearded one
27-11-2013, 18:03
Aren't null fields supposed to combat psykers?

Machine spirits get corrupted all the time. This is done by collecting those machinespirits, rather than corrupting machine spirits on purpose. This is a pretty neat way of getting rid of them, wrecking your opponents at the same time (and yourself if you're not careful).

MajorNese
27-11-2013, 20:59
I thought mixing "technology" with "warp" was anathema to Adeptus Mechanicus and thus classified as Heretek of worst sort punishable by a minimum of permanent mindwipe and servitordom?
AFAIR it was hinted that the corrupted machine spirits were amongst the artifacts the IH extracted from an imperial excavation site.
The Eldar tried to conquer the site, as there was something ancient that should not be disturbed, but the IH wiped out most of the Eldar and took whatever was buried there.

As there are also crazied Necrons and power struggles amongst Necrons in general, it could be possible that this was a Necron WMD, or mind prison for corrupted Necrons.

MajorWesJanson
28-11-2013, 03:16
Also note, for context- these battles took place early on, prior to widespread knowledge of the Necrons. 765.M41, while Sanctuary 101 was in 899.M41

Spider-pope
28-11-2013, 09:14
I really like the concept of the Sapphire King. Sanguinius' death caused unintended side effects to his Legion, ramifications that have continued for ten thousand years, so it's only fitting that other Primarch deaths should also have a big, unanticipated consequences. It makes the demi-gods more demi-godly to know that their deaths have a lasting impact.

El_Machinae
28-11-2013, 14:11
Demons are so weird. Was the Sapphire King feeding on their philosophical error? If so, why try to cripple the Chapter?

Theocracity
28-11-2013, 14:37
Demons are so weird. Was the Sapphire King feeding on their philosophical error? If so, why try to cripple the Chapter?

The same reason why an untreated infection or parasite can end up killing its host - it's just doing what comes naturally to it, and isn't able to stop itself (especially notable since its Slaanesh-related).

El_Machinae
28-11-2013, 15:22
Amusingly, due to evolutionary pressure, parasites become increasingly benign over the generations

The bearded one
29-11-2013, 01:50
Amusingly, due to evolutionary pressure, parasites become increasingly benign over the generations

Maybe in the future parasites will make their hosts stronger in some way, to make their own lives more comfortable and ensure survival :)

Moloch Sacrifice
01-12-2013, 15:41
Maybe in the future parasites will make their hosts stronger in some way, to make their own lives more comfortable and ensure survival :)
That's what we call symbiosis. Look it up; there are some pretty cool alliances between surprisingly diverse organisms :).

OT, I've been a fan of the Iron Hands aesthetic for quite a while, so I'm glad to see them getting a bit of love for once. I'm liking the way they're fleshing out the Iron Father/Captain dynamic, and the way the 'Flesh is Weak!' idea is being expanded in new directions.

Grubnar
01-12-2013, 19:03
Heart of Iron Rhino that thinks it's a tank- took out a warbosses battlewagon with HK missile, damaged but self repaired and ran over and killed Warboss

As an Ork player, I highly approve of this story. It is hilarious!

Lord Lorne Walkier
01-12-2013, 21:00
Just some notes as I read through it:

Many more Iron Hands killed rushing to Istvaan and being caught in ambushes above the planet
After Ferrus's death, some factions of the IH reject the Clan Council, some turn to Tech Heresy that is later covered up and denied


This bit is confirmed and spelled out in clear terms in the short story, Riven.

Nazguire
05-12-2013, 21:04
I'm not sure I like all this new Iron Hands background that is coming out. I understand that they'd elect a representative to an extent, but part of the ethos of the Iron Hands fragmented Clan nature and Council is that

- They are so paranoid and untrustworthy they don't even really trust themselves
- The constant rivalry and passive aggressive conflict with each other keeps them 'strong'
- To allow maximum flexibility and effectiveness, like a machine
- Only Ferrus was strong enough to lead them by himself, and he died, so they need more than one to be 'strong'.

Hence that they have a Clan Council and not one leader, and that every Clan Company is a self contained army in it's own right.

This Sapphire King thing sounds weird, I'm not sure whether I like it or not and especially don't like how apparently a lot of them were corrupted and/or mutated before they were killed/forced out.

I like how the Iron Father's are not just Techmarines. They're just mainly made up of Techmarines over the millennia due to the bias towards machines, but Apothecaries and Librarians are part of it too as well. Considering every Iron Hand has a love affair with bionics, it's not like they're going to become Ultramarines anytime soon, or ever.

The 'controlling your emotions, not suppressing them' thing sounds far too Star Wars Jedi for me. Part of the appeal of the Iron Hands is how ruthless and coldly calculating they are. Not sure whether I like this either.

I'm really 'maybe, maybe not' about the whole thing. The Iron Hands of Clan Raukaan in 'Wrath of Iron' by Chris Wraight seem to be an entirely different Chapter to this one.

Luxem
06-12-2013, 21:44
The 'controlling your emotions, not suppressing them' thing sounds far too Star Wars Jedi for me. Part of the appeal of the Iron Hands is how ruthless and coldly calculating they are. Not sure whether I like this either.


Is that not where it comes from?

DoomedToRepeatIt
07-12-2013, 17:42
Read this:

http://thegoodthebadtheinsulting.blogspot.co.uk/2013/11/clan-raukaan-part-1-lore-warhammer.html


And then try claiming that any of the new fluff for the Chapter is in any way, shape, or form good. As a decade-plus Iron Hands player, this load of tripe being forced upon my Chapter makes me livid.

Lord Damocles
07-12-2013, 21:08
As a decade-plus Iron Hands player, this load of tripe being forced upon my Chapter makes me livid.
On the plus side, the myth that the Iron Hands lack Terminator Armour (repeated in that article) might finally die the death which it deserves.

Nazguire
07-12-2013, 21:27
Wow, you can almost feel the vehemence that the author of that review has for that supplement and GW at this point.

I can understand to an extent the angst that players might feel about a beloved army and its background, but wow. Epic nerdrage/10.

MajorWesJanson
07-12-2013, 21:41
I am not a die-hard Iron Hands fan personally (I run a sucessor), but I thought the supplement fluff was rather interesting. That review feels to me like it twisted things to get the most negative interpretation possible.

Asher
07-12-2013, 23:27
Read this:

http://thegoodthebadtheinsulting.blogspot.co.uk/2013/11/clan-raukaan-part-1-lore-warhammer.html


And then try claiming that any of the new fluff for the Chapter is in any way, shape, or form good. As a decade-plus Iron Hands player, this load of tripe being forced upon my Chapter makes me livid.

As an IH player I'm not happy woth some parts of the new background (clans mainly) but holy hell, I feel emberassed for the athor of that article. The amount of nerdrage is appaling.

Theocracity
08-12-2013, 01:46
As an IH player I'm not happy woth some parts of the new background (clans mainly) but holy hell, I feel emberassed for the athor of that article. The amount of nerdrage is appaling.

Yeah, I can't ever imagine caring that much about the continuity of inconsequential details for a fictional creation that I don't own the intellectual property rights of. I'd say that guy needs a hobby, but how does that work when he's already mad about a hobby.... :p.

DoomedToRepeatIt
08-12-2013, 22:11
What's wrong with having passion for your hobby? I feel the nerd-rage in the article too, but rather than being dismissive of it, I am sympathetic to it. I feel the same way, because I have poured years of my life, thousands of hard-earned dollars, and every ounce of artistic ability in my body into this game and others like it. I feel so strongly about the game, and the game universe, because of this devotion.

Will I rage-quit the game -- or my Iron Hands army -- because of this crappy new fluff? Absolutely not, because those are the actions of the immature. But that doesn't mean that I don't have a right to be angry about it. How many of you love the Star Wars franchise? "Han shot first!" has become a common term amongst fans because George Lucas changed something in Episode IV, and the fans got angry about it. There are fans of every Expanded Universe novel ever released, but all of them are going to be disappointed in some way when Episodes VII, VIII, and IX come out because all the beloved characters of the EU -- Mara Jade, the Organa-Solo children, Grand Admiral Thrawn, Corran Horn, and so on -- are probably not going to feature, and the entirety of such fabulous works of fiction like Heir to the Empire and X-Wing: Rogue Squadron will be excised from the canon at a stroke. Do the fans of these characters not have a right to be angry at their inevitable exclusion?

To bring it back closer to home, how would you feel if GW retconned Khorne from the god of bloodshed to the god of peace and love? "They're not Berserkers! They just love giving people hugs!" Because that kind of fundamental alteration to the fluff is exactly what has happened to the Iron Hands.

There's nothing wrong with being passionate about the things you love, and I pity those of you who are lambasting the author of that review because they don't feel as strongly about this hobby as some of the rest of us.

Luxem
09-12-2013, 00:23
This is a goddamned warhammer 40k forum and in the sub forum for the background/story. The best authors are the ones who are capable of generating quote on quote "nerdrage", think about that(Or think about the Bible and actual pastors that preach). And indeed, it wouldn't be a hobby if there was no passion mi amigos.

That said, I'd like to see GW's stance on the fluff, and possibly why these same fluff oddities that seem to upset the die hards (Which again, Warhammer 40k mostly is and I have always liked to believe GW/BL pretty receptive) continue to repeat themselves. It also speaks for the business side of things, which unfortunately undercuts any fluff. But why can't both be brought unto the same camp? Is it too hard to satisfy the die hard and whatever the hell may have sparked that nerd rage? I suppose thats why we came here in the first place, to discuss...

Theocracity
09-12-2013, 02:57
How many of you love the Star Wars franchise? "Han shot first!" has become a common term amongst fans because George Lucas changed something in Episode IV, and the fans got angry about it. There are fans of every Expanded Universe novel ever released, but all of them are going to be disappointed in some way when Episodes VII, VIII, and IX come out because all the beloved characters of the EU -- Mara Jade, the Organa-Solo children, Grand Admiral Thrawn, Corran Horn, and so on -- are probably not going to feature, and the entirety of such fabulous works of fiction like Heir to the Empire and X-Wing: Rogue Squadron will be excised from the canon at a stroke. Do the fans of these characters not have a right to be angry at their inevitable exclusion?

Speaking as someone who was a big fan of the Star Wars EU, I'm not going to be either surprised or particularly care that the new movies will change the events. Not only were those often not particularly good in retrospect, but I think it'd be a shame if they used their time and energy rehashing stories that were told years ago. I want to hear new stories, not the same ones I read when I was in high school.


To bring it back closer to home, how would you feel if GW retconned Khorne from the god of bloodshed to the god of peace and love? "They're not Berserkers! They just love giving people hugs!" Because that kind of fundamental alteration to the fluff is exactly what has happened to the Iron Hands.

See, this is where you go from 'devoted fan of the fluff' to 'completely unreasonable.'


There's nothing wrong with being passionate about the things you love, and I pity those of you who are lambasting the author of that review because they don't feel as strongly about this hobby as some of the rest of us.

Ok.

Nazguire
09-12-2013, 03:46
What's wrong with having passion for your hobby? I feel the nerd-rage in the article too, but rather than being dismissive of it, I am sympathetic to it. I feel the same way, because I have poured years of my life, thousands of hard-earned dollars, and every ounce of artistic ability in my body into this game and others like it. I feel so strongly about the game, and the game universe, because of this devotion.

Will I rage-quit the game -- or my Iron Hands army -- because of this crappy new fluff? Absolutely not, because those are the actions of the immature. But that doesn't mean that I don't have a right to be angry about it. How many of you love the Star Wars franchise? "Han shot first!" has become a common term amongst fans because George Lucas changed something in Episode IV, and the fans got angry about it. There are fans of every Expanded Universe novel ever released, but all of them are going to be disappointed in some way when Episodes VII, VIII, and IX come out because all the beloved characters of the EU -- Mara Jade, the Organa-Solo children, Grand Admiral Thrawn, Corran Horn, and so on -- are probably not going to feature, and the entirety of such fabulous works of fiction like Heir to the Empire and X-Wing: Rogue Squadron will be excised from the canon at a stroke. Do the fans of these characters not have a right to be angry at their inevitable exclusion?

To bring it back closer to home, how would you feel if GW retconned Khorne from the god of bloodshed to the god of peace and love? "They're not Berserkers! They just love giving people hugs!" Because that kind of fundamental alteration to the fluff is exactly what has happened to the Iron Hands.

There's nothing wrong with being passionate about the things you love, and I pity those of you who are lambasting the author of that review because they don't feel as strongly about this hobby as some of the rest of us.

You can be angry about it all you'd like, and discuss it all you want. But at least be reasonable about what has been changed and what hasn't. The new Star Wars movies should be suitably epic enough to soothe the damaged souls of those that are dedicated to the Expanded Universe novels.

And the alteration to the Iron Hands is not as drastic and completely unlikely to happen as changing one of the Chaos Gods to something the complete opposite of what it is, and thus completely invalidating an entire chunk of the 40k background. I'm not the biggest fan of some of the changes and retcons either, but they aren't anywhere near as extreme as that.

Pity for us? Wut.

Scribe of Khorne
09-12-2013, 04:35
I read the review, wheres the nerd rage? Iron Hands fluff starts and stops at HH stuff, and Wrath of Iron for me.

El_Machinae
09-12-2013, 13:20
Honestly, the entire Sapphire King thing really impressed me. I thought it was a very clever idea. And, honestly, it's a hard story to tell in less than a hundred pages of large font. It's a clever idea, tough to execute, but still remains a clever idea.

DoomedToRepeatIt
11-12-2013, 15:27
It's really not, though. Ferrus was the first Primarch who, when offered, requested, or was tempted to turn Traitor, refused. He was loyal in all ways to the Emperor. . . so why does it make any sense that his warp-ghost would become an agent of Chaos? Plus, there's that bit from the now-virtually-redacted Index Astartes article how Ferrus' ghost appeared to the Iron Hands at the moment the Emperor was struck by Horus and told them that one day he'd return to lead them in the final battle against Chaos. How does that jive with the Sapphire King's existence, unless his soul was split in two and there's a Chaos side and an Order side? If Chaos entities feed on human emotion, the obvious means of depowering such entities is to not feel emotion, which was the Iron Hands' schtick -- be like a machine. The King can't feed off a lack of emotion; it's like saying I can survive all my life by not drinking a thing. But apparently he does, and so the solution -- Stronos says -- is to feel emotions again. . . thereby powering the Big Four and completely altering the very core concept of the Iron Hands as a Chapter.

It's not clever, it's dumb. It breaks prior lore on the Chapter, it breaks logic, and it breaks the very rules of the 40K universe.

Theocracity
12-12-2013, 02:00
Doomed, you seem to have a very rigid view of 40K background. I'd like to suggest a few interpretations to your concerns that I hope might loosen things up a bit.


It's really not, though. Ferrus was the first Primarch who, when offered, requested, or was tempted to turn Traitor, refused. He was loyal in all ways to the Emperor. . . so why does it make any sense that his warp-ghost would become an agent of Chaos?

Well, Fulgrim was favored by the Emperor to the point that his legion got to wear the Aquila. We know what happened to him. Sometimes even good intentions can have terrible consequences. Besides, I don't think that the Sapphire King is Ferrus' warp ghost as you seem to be interpreting it, as I go into next -


Plus, there's that bit from the now-virtually-redacted Index Astartes article how Ferrus' ghost appeared to the Iron Hands at the moment the Emperor was struck by Horus and told them that one day he'd return to lead them in the final battle against Chaos. How does that jive with the Sapphire King's existence, unless his soul was split in two and there's a Chaos side and an Order side?

The Sapphire King isn't Ferrus's ghost - it's an embodiment of the emotions at the time of his death. You may say that those are the same thing, but they clearly don't have to be. In the timeless emotional landscape of the Warp, Ferrus' spirit in life can be a different entity than what was created by the rage and disappointment of his final moment. As a primarch, Ferrus was clearly powerful enough to spark this kind of eddy in the warp even if he didn't intend to.


If Chaos entities feed on human emotion, the obvious means of depowering such entities is to not feel emotion, which was the Iron Hands' schtick -- be like a machine. The King can't feed off a lack of emotion; it's like saying I can survive all my life by not drinking a thing. But apparently he does, and so the solution -- Stronos says -- is to feel emotions again. . . thereby powering the Big Four and completely altering the very core concept of the Iron Hands as a Chapter.

The problem with the emotion suppressors was that they're not eliminating the emotion - it still exists, but is prevented from being expressed. While that may simulate the way of the machine that the Iron Hands seek to emulate, it was allowing inappropriate emotion to fester. There's clearly a difference in the way humans can express emotions - it can serve the agents of Chaos, or the Emperor and his Imperium. An Astartes can be proud of his chapter and service, or wrathful of the enemies of the Imperium, or plot a complicated plan to destroy an enemy without it feeding Slaanesh, Khorne or Tzeentch. However without carefully monitoring their intentions and ensuring that their emotions are selfless and serving the Emperor (either through the rituals of the Astartes or the brutal enforcement of the Inquisition), those emotions can easily be twisted and serve Chaos. That's what happened in the case of the Sapphire King - when the emotions were being suppressed, they weren't being monitored. It was assumed that their machinelike coldness was sufficient, when it was just serving as a cover for a parasite.

As for altering their core concept, I don't think that's the as dramatic of a situation as you say. The Iron Hands have always been wrathful and intolerant of weakness. They clearly haven't all just been emotional robots, even if that's been a big part of their character. And besides, if you prefer the robotic IH character, well that's clearly been their dominant attitude through most of their history. The relatively recent rise of Stronos doesn't change 10,000 years of history - it's just the most recent twist for a chapter that (hopefully) hasn't remained completely static for all that time. You can always set your army in an earlier era, among one of the clans lucky to be untouched by the Sapphire King.


It's not clever, it's dumb. It breaks prior lore on the Chapter, it breaks logic, and it breaks the very rules of the 40K universe.

I'm not sure which rules you think it's breaking, unless those rules are 'never change or ever provide sources of narrative conflict.'

MajorWesJanson
13-12-2013, 01:19
The Sapphire King isn't Ferrus's ghost - it's an embodiment of the emotions at the time of his death. You may say that those are the same thing, but they clearly don't have to be. In the timeless emotional landscape of the Warp, Ferrus' spirit in life can be a different entity than what was created by the rage and disappointment of his final moment. As a primarch, Ferrus was clearly powerful enough to spark this kind of eddy in the warp even if he didn't intend to.

That's the read I got as well. It's kinds of similar to when the Eldar race managed to dump enough emotions into the warp to blow up a sector of space and create one of the four most powerful beings in the warp. Their souls didn't transform into Slaanesh, Slaanesh become it's own form and then ate their souls. The Sapphire King is far far weaker, and probably was unable to consume Ferrus's soul, so now attempts to prey on the souls of Iron Hands, just like Slaanesh likes Eldar the best.

bannus
18-12-2013, 19:08
For people who have a passing interest in the Iron Hands, the new supplement probably isn't that bad.

To any long-time Iron Hands player, it is an abomination.

For over ten years, Iron Hands players had to deal with crappy, inconsistent rules (remember the trait system - we get Chaplains, but no Captains...what!?). All we really had was some really stellar fluff that started with an IA article unmatched by any.

That has been replaced by cheap, unimaginative drivel - and it was all so unnecessary.

I expect GW to make changes to the various Chapters from edition to edition, I even expect them to come up with some pretty terrible ideas. They are human, I get that. However, I did not expect them to completely over-haul/reinvent an established Chapter like this one....and do such a ****-poor job of it.

The Black Templars have been rolled into the Codex and BT players are none too happy about that. I'd like to use them as a comparison of what GW did to the Iron Hands for the uninitiated:

Let's start by making them a Codex Chapter. They only number 1000 Marines now and they have a Veteran 1st Crusade, four Battle Crusades, four Reserve Crusades and a Neophite Crusade that correspond to a Codex Chapter.

The whole "zeal" thing just isn't working out too well. Sigismund was a loser who really didn't put much thought into his leadership style. The Black Templars will now be more cautious...like a Codex Chapter.

No more High Marshals, BTs now have "Templar-Captains" to go along with their "Templar-Chaplains", "Templar-Apothecaries", etc.

Sword Brethren? Nah, they are now "Templar-Veterans because....you know...we have to add "Templar" as a prefex for everything or it just ain't cool.

Speaking of Officers, have you met any of the "Templar-Librarians"? Yes, a Librarium...like all good little Codex Chapters.

Crusader Squads: What's a Crusader Squad? Over the centuries, the Black Templars have moved away from this archaic formation and is now just an honorary name given to any squad of Black Templars.

Speaking of honorary titles: The Emperor's Champion is no longer a character class, but an honorary title given to any Captain, Chaplain or Librarian in the Chapter.

Fleet-based? Are you kidding? BTs have always had a single Chapter Monestary like all the other Codex Chapters.

Helbrect - well, he is now a bordeline heritic to other Black Templars, but he is really possessed by a daemon of Khorn. That daemon was destroyed when the Black Templars embraced caution and a reserved attitude towards battle. Fortunately, Grimaldus has taken command of the Chapter during this time and has spent the last 100 years trying to decide what do with the Chapter. Wonder, wonder....

The sad part of it is I am not exagerating.

Imagine how the BT players would react if this was done to their Chapter?

I think we have a right to be upset. Anyone who has not invested a lot time, energy and money into building Iron Hands armies telling us "it isn't a big deal"...well...it rings pretty hallow. Those of you who think the fluff hasn't changed much need to re-read the original IA article. Of the eleven paragraphs that specifically outlined the Chapter itself (not history or homeworld fluff - that get's buthcered too), nine of them are directly contradicted by the new fluff.

We went from having the most interesting background material to a Codex Chapter with a fetish for bionics because "all Chapters want to be the Ultramarines".

I'll leave it at that.