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Romark
27-11-2013, 11:42
Hello,

I have a question on charges (that a thread about cornering reminded me of). I had a game stopped because 2 people count decide on a charge. There was a unit of Black Guard in combat with some Empire knights. Corsairs were in combat, but lost and fled (2"! Wrong double 1.) but they stayed in combat with the BG, so wasn't too bad. Now, the Empire player had a unit of Demigryphs he wanted to charge in. I wouldn't allow it. This is partly down to not being 100% on the rules and partly down to him refusing to allow me to do something 100% legal a turn before, basic stubborness.

I would have said that the Knights could have moved over and the Demi's got into combat, but the Corsairs were blocking their being enough room on one side, and the Knights couldn't move over enough for them to get in (and have a close the gap completed) on the other. They could touch, so should the Knights move over and Demigryphs just position themselves with 2 touching (in a way where it couldn't have happened really)... If you could decipher this:

182370Black = Black Guard. Green = Corsairs. Dark Blue = Empire Knights. Light Blue = Demigryphs.

I have tried to explain it...

Any help would be appreciated!

Romark

Roshan
27-11-2013, 11:52
If the corsairs were fleeing then the Demi's could declare a charge to get them out of the way then re-direct - however i cant see how they can get past the knights. Any kind of wheel wouldnt get them clear of the knights to get them into combat....... not 100% sure though, but i wouldnt allow a charge either.

theunwantedbeing
27-11-2013, 11:53
It's not a multiple charge situation if only one unit is charging.
Also the rules don't allow units already engaged in combat to move out of the way to make room for new units.

So the demi-gryphs just aren't allowed to charge the black guard as it's not possible for them to legally get there.
They can declare a charge on the corsairs just fine though, the corsairs will flee out of range and the demigryphs will stop 1" away from the back of the knights.

BattleofLund
27-11-2013, 11:54
From the picture, it looks to me like the Demis are in the Corsairs' rear. Since there is no way of completing a rear charge against the Corsairs, the Demis shouldn't be allowed to declare a charge. (Even if the Corsairs are fleeing.)

Romark
27-11-2013, 12:18
Sorry, this was a turn after fleeing. The Corsairs had rallied and turned to face the combat again. But i'm glad my assessment of not being allowed to complete a charge was justified.


It's not a multiple charge situation if only one unit is charging.
Also the rules don't allow units already engaged in combat to move out of the way to make room for new units.

So the demi-gryphs just aren't allowed to charge the black guard as it's not possible for them to legally get there.
They can declare a charge on the corsairs just fine though, the corsairs will flee out of range and the demigryphs will stop 1" away from the back of the knights.

We have often played where a unit will nudge along to make room for a charging unit. Is this not legal? I know if 2 are declared at the same time it is different. But if it is into an existing combat (this is a part of the rulebook which is unbelievably unclear).

Ghorros Ghorrosson
27-11-2013, 12:46
No you can't nudge a unit along to make space for another unit to charge in.

You can combat reform at the end on previous combat phase to move a unit along, but this would not make enough space in this case, because you cannot reform a unit to take a model, friend or foe, out of base contact. Or to be precise you have to have at least the same number of models fighting after the reform as before.

Mr_Rose
27-11-2013, 12:47
It's not unclear in the slightest; you simply aren't allowed to move a unit that's already in combat without a combat reform and combat reforms don't permit you to remove models from combat, which sliding in either direction in the diagram provided would cause.

theunwantedbeing
27-11-2013, 12:57
We have often played where a unit will nudge along to make room for a charging unit. Is this not legal? I know if 2 are declared at the same time it is different. But if it is into an existing combat (this is a part of the rulebook which is unbelievably unclear).

It's not really stated anywhere that you can't do that, it's just never stated that you can do it or even hinted at being something you can do.

Page 20
Chargers get one wheel in their charge move to reach the enemy.
-the charge isn't legal if you can't do that
-doesn't say anything about being allowed to move friendlies out of the way

Page 20 & page 22
Chargers after reaching can close the door.
-the charge isn't legal if you can't do that for whatever reason a unit being in the way is one such reason
-again, doesn't say anything about being allowed to move friendlies out of the way

Same thing for when you charge into combat and then slide the unit across to maximise.
That's not even close to being legal in any of the rules but plenty of people play that way.

SteveW
27-11-2013, 12:58
You cannot declare impossible charges. It says you can declare the charge if the unit might be forced to move making the charge possible(i.e. they flee making room). If the graph is to scale though it's illegal because even if they flee you don't have room to wheel around the knights.

Romark
27-11-2013, 13:22
You cannot declare impossible charges. It says you can declare the charge if the unit might be forced to move making the charge possible(i.e. they flee making room). If the graph is to scale though it's illegal because even if they flee you don't have room to wheel around the knights.

Well, scale-ish! But close enough.


Same thing for when you charge into combat and then slide the unit across to maximise.
That's not even close to being legal in any of the rules but plenty of people play that way.

I agree with the rest of what you said, but the rules do state that you have to maximise, and this is the only way to do it (you cannot be expected to make a perfect charge everytime), so I'd say the rules make this legal.

Thanks guys, i'll make sure to show this to my group so we can continue with the correct rules!

theunwantedbeing
27-11-2013, 13:33
I agree with the rest of what you said, but the rules do state that you have to maximise, and this is the only way to do it (you cannot be expected to make a perfect charge everytime), so I'd say the rules make this legal.

You can slide as a combat reform.
When maximising contact with an enemy on a charge you are not allowed to slide as you only get to move forwards and make a single wheel (and an alignment wheel upon contact) but nothing more.

Most of the time all sliding does is make it easier to get to that maximised contact that you'de be able to get anyway, but there are situation where it's marginal and sliding allows you to get into contact, or more contact than you should be able to manage legally.

Ghorros Ghorrosson
27-11-2013, 13:42
I agree with the rest of what you said, but the rules do state that you have to maximise, and this is the only way to do it (you cannot be expected to make a perfect charge everytime), so I'd say the rules make this legal.


Well no not really. The rules tell you how to do a charge and it's a 90 degree wheel pllus close the door. In many cases this have the same outcome as charging then sliding to maximise. But not every case. When unit are close together, or there are intervening units or terrain that partially block the charge then you can only bring part of your unit into combat, and you should not then slide across to maximise.

In practice when I play the units normally do a kind of "snap-to-grid" just to align to each others bases (if they are the same size) but this is a micro-nudge rather than a proper slide.