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Harwammer
28-11-2013, 16:26
The Black Mace
This malefic mace is said to have been cursed by each of the Daemon Primarchs. One who is struck by it instantly collapses into mouldering bone, while the curse spreads in a deadly shockwave

I was reading the description of this item and was wondering what could possibly motivate all of the Daemon Primarchs to curse a simple mace? I took some time to consider 1) a mace of significance to these beings, or perhaps an individual that famously owned a mace and 2) why the Daemon Primarchs would all carry the antipathy towards this item or individual to curse it.

My own theory is this weapon was the personal weapon of Horus, who famously carried a mace. After failing in the Siege of Terra, dashing the traitor's hopes of conquest over The Imperium I can see why the Daemon Primarchs might curse Horus and his personal affects. The name of the weapon even nods to the fact that it is associated with the black legion.

So The Black Mace, before it became The Black Mace, belonged to Horus and was cursed by the Primarchs after he failed them. Could this be true? Is there any fluff that disproves this theory? Do you have any alternative suggestions for the origins of the mace and the motivations of the Daemon Primarchs that were allegedly involved in it's creation?

Bugaboo
28-11-2013, 18:08
Maybe it's a less obvious remake of the Dreadaxe. >.> If such were the case, I could easily see why the Daemon Primarchs of the big four would curse such an item.

El_Machinae
28-11-2013, 19:15
Alpharius sequentially placed it in a place where each Demon Primarch would stub their toes on it while stumbling to the bathroom for a midnight tinkle. And this is how each of them cursed it in turn.

Silversage
28-11-2013, 19:41
Alpharius sequentially placed it in a place where each Demon Primarch would stub their toes on it while stumbling to the bathroom for a midnight tinkle. And this is how each of them cursed it in turn.

The path to redemption in the eyes of the Emperor begins one toe at a time.

Retrospectus
28-11-2013, 23:07
Lorgar had a mace too. maybe they were all really pissed that he got them into this mess?

=Angel=
29-11-2013, 00:47
Cursed means blessed. They cast maledictions on itto make it awesome.

How they all blessed the one thing is still k valid question.
Maybe Abaddon had them do it as an oath of blah blah. Or maybe 'it's said to...' is the operative past- it's just some mace that fell into a hell hole and came out stinking of brimstone.

Just like that burning sword in the marine dex is in no way shape or form the emperor's sword.

Or do the space marines timeshare the God Emperor's blade?

SpanielBear
29-11-2013, 07:41
Relics on a rota. There are fights over who has to hold the toe-nail clippings. And there's always some arsey chapter who goes on about leap years and how this means its never fair that the Raven Guard always have the Burning Blade on Thursdays.

terradax
29-11-2013, 07:53
It becomes a problem when people try to figure out a logic in the game warhammer 40.000.
Remember that your imagination is the limit here, and you are encouraged to create your own names, chapters etc.
My "Black Mace" is a corrupted scythe carried by a daemon prince, for example.

VaeVictisGames
29-11-2013, 09:23
Just like that burning sword in the marine dex is in no way shape or form the emperor's sword.

Or do the space marines timeshare the God Emperor's blade?

It's like relics in the real world. Countless churches, monasteries etc. claim to have bits of Saints or crosses or cloth, often the same bit as someone else. If all the toe bones were real for example, then most Saints had way more than ten.

The difference though is in the 40k universe, belief has an actual effect. So if 1000+ Space Marines all firmly believe that Random Sword #28 belonged to the Emperor, it's going to take on some nifty characteristics.

Idomeneus
29-11-2013, 17:02
Also, the mace is unlikely to have belonged to a primarch. Primarchs were vast beings, their weapons would be the size of a fully armoured marine and thus unliftable. Most recent art of the primarchs supports this (as do the fw models), and despite gw modelling massive weapons on their models, it isn't feasible. If anybody is responsible for a cursed mace, it would likely be that git Erebus.

Perrin
29-11-2013, 17:52
Also, the mace is unlikely to have belonged to a primarch. Primarchs were vast beings, their weapons would be the size of a fully armoured marine and thus unliftable. Most recent art of the primarchs supports this (as do the fw models), and despite gw modelling massive weapons on their models, it isn't feasible. If anybody is responsible for a cursed mace, it would likely be that git Erebus.

Khârn wields Gorechild, Abaddon wields the Talon of Horus, both Primarch weapons. Gauntlets of Ultramar, Raven's Talons, Spear of Telesto, Sword of Sebastus, to name a few that are less relevant.

=Angel=
29-11-2013, 18:40
Kharn has Gorechild- an axe AngryRon used to pair with Gorefather. Presumably he'd block with the child and swing with the father- like a sword and dagger approach.

But yeah, the new 'named' artifact approach in the codexes grind my gears.
Really. This is the flamer Kharn used that one time? And it's ap3.
This is Guillimans bolter. It comes with a servoharness so you can carry and fire it.

Here's the mark 0 suit of powerarmour. Yes you can fit inside. Don't lose this now- the techmarines would like it back when you're done so they can continue hiding it away instead of reverse engineering better suits.

Inquisitor Engel
29-11-2013, 19:03
Kharn has Gorechild- an axe AngryRon used to pair with Gorefather. Presumably he'd block with the child and swing with the father- like a sword and dagger approach.

Except they were the same size:

182492

Idomeneus
29-11-2013, 19:31
Fluff and models not lining up. Because there is no way Angron is way bigger than those space marines surrounding him. I would actually be interested in seeing gorechild as carried by Angron and gorechild as carried by Kharn put next to each other.

Perrin
29-11-2013, 19:40
Primarchs are way bigger than marines though. I haven't read Betrayer in a while but I don't remember anything about Gorechild being smaller than Gorefather. The naming of the two would suggest that there is some kind of size difference I suppose.

Fangschrecken
29-11-2013, 20:58
With regards to the Burning Blade, what's to say they didn't take part of the emperor's shattered blade and insert tiny pieces into a thousand lesser swords? Sort of like the legend that the Crux Terminatus has a tiny piece of the emperor's armor in it.

MajorWesJanson
29-11-2013, 21:10
With regards to the Burning Blade, what's to say they didn't take part of the emperor's shattered blade and insert tiny pieces into a thousand lesser swords? Sort of like the legend that the Crux Terminatus has a tiny piece of the emperor's armor in it.

That legend is actually true, mostly. Each legion got a piece of the "One Armor" and broke it down and integrated it into their crux terminatus at the time. Many have been lost, but the original cruxes still around do have a fragment of the armor in them, as do all Grey Knight terminator suits. It's actually a plot point in Pandorax.

Idomeneus
29-11-2013, 22:59
If the emperor ever does recover and leave the golden throne he's gonna be seriously hacked off when he tries to suit up....

Fangschrecken
30-11-2013, 02:31
The admech has had 10000 years to get it fixed. you'd think they would have gotten to it by now

Inquisitor Engel
30-11-2013, 06:26
Fluff and models not lining up. Because there is no way Angron is way bigger than those space marines surrounding him. I would actually be interested in seeing gorechild as carried by Angron and gorechild as carried by Kharn put next to each other.

They're always described as 'twin-axes' in the Horus Heresy books, and no special mention is made that Gorechild is smaller when Khârn picks it up and demands it be rebuilt (which could explain the size discrepancy) As for the models themselves... I'd wager that current Khârn model is older than most of the 40k players on this forum. His power armour wouldn't fit a current Cadian guardsman. While not "Abaddon" out-of-scale, he's still very off compared to the rest of the range at the moment.

Retrospectus
30-11-2013, 12:15
Fluff and models not lining up. Because there is no way Angron is way bigger than those space marines surrounding him. I would actually be interested in seeing gorechild as carried by Angron and gorechild as carried by Kharn put next to each other.

Primarchs are routinely described as much larger than normal astartes. in horus rising (I think, it was definitely one of the heresy books) horus was described as being as large to a space marine as a space marine is to a man. so yes angron is much bigger than those space marines

El_Machinae
30-11-2013, 14:01
Yeah, it's a headscratcher sometimes. Alpharius could use terminator bodyguards as body-doubles. Magnus's psyche occasionally had him perceived as a veritable giant. Angron clearly out-scales Kharn in that short-story.

SpanielBear
30-11-2013, 14:20
Could be the primarchs just had varying builds. We already know there's some differences, for example between Sanguinius and Corax, or Lorgar and Ferus manus.

Idomeneus
30-11-2013, 17:14
Alpharius was only a little larger than standard astartes (probably because both he and Omegon had to fit in the same pod). All the other Primarchs are considerably larger than their sons, built to a larger scale. Differences in physique would probably be more like differences in human physique, but on a much larger scale. They aren't likely to differ in size greatly, but Perturabo is hencher than Fulgrim.

Formosa
30-11-2013, 23:44
Except they were the same size:

182492

Except I got the model and there not the same size

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Inquisitor Engel
01-12-2013, 00:30
Except I got the model and there not the same size

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That's weird. When I had him (sold off) while still different styles of axe, they were squarely the same physical size.

Formosa
01-12-2013, 00:42
That's weird. When I had him (sold off) while still different styles of axe, they were squarely the same physical size.

That is odd if true, did you get a knock off maybe?

An interesting tidbit, put the axe angron has next to kharns, they are the exact same size but it looks bigger in kharns hand.

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Rufiodies
01-12-2013, 01:50
Everyone always forgets that the Primarchs are akin to warp creatures, and they had a physical presence, and a warp presence. the best example of this is the Emperor, who could tower over even the primarchs, or could appear as a normal human. But his warp presence was HUGE, they say looking straight at him in all his glory would leave even a space marine blind for weeks. Magnus is a good example of how they could change their physical size, he was in essence, a daemon prince, his size would shift from normal to a veritable giant. Lorgar was said to have had the Emperor's presence in a way, he had that warp halo of power that surrounded him. (golden demi god was a term thrown around)
The other primarchs seemed to be more rooted in the physical realm. but as they were still made with the warp, im sure they're "presence" would grow and shrink at different times.
I guess what I'm trying to point out is that they had a presence that went beyond their actual physical size, which would cause other people/SM's to see them as towering glowing glorious gods.

I remember some mention in Unremembered Empire of Primarchs being forced to use normal space marine weapons and power swords were like daggers, bolters that were too small for their hands, stuff like that.
and Corax used a heavy bolter like a normal marine would use a boltgun in his escape from Istvaan.

As for Alpharius Omegon, while they were smaller than the other primarchs, they did have to use HUGE space marines as body doubles, I'm sure these guys were huge even for space marines, if not at the level of like Alexis Polux, but at the same time, they seemed to be able to use normal space marine gear and even slip in as random space marines against their own men (short story about the necron pylon)
I would say that part of their warp presence/power (all the primarchs seem to have subtle warp powers, Curze and his stealth, same with Corax, Magnus being a daemon so on so forth)
but alpharius/omegon probably were able to deceive the eyes of whoever was looking at them to see whatever the primarchs wanted them to see. If they wanted to be a normal marine, most people would see a normal marine. If they wanted to be a glorious primarch, bada bing, Theres a Primarch. Really good for infiltration. The Legion probably carried some of this power with them in the geneseed, which is why they are so good at infiltration.
Kinda like hiding your power level in DBZ.

Inquisitor Engel
01-12-2013, 18:31
That is odd if true, did you get a knock off maybe?

An interesting tidbit, put the axe angron has next to kharns, they are the exact same size but it looks bigger in kharns hand.

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Nope, very first run for the Forge World ones. Could have just been a miscast I suppose.

MvS
01-12-2013, 19:09
They're always described as 'twin-axes' in the Horus Heresy books, and no special mention is made that Gorechild is smaller when Khârn picks it up and demands it be rebuilt (which could explain the size discrepancy) As for the models themselves... I'd wager that current Khârn model is older than most of the 40k players on this forum. His power armour wouldn't fit a current Cadian guardsman. While not "Abaddon" out-of-scale, he's still very off compared to the rest of the range at the moment.

Exactly this, although rather than try to imagine that the size of the axe has been altered over the millennia, I just prefer to imagine that the model is wrong and that the axe is actually a huge two-handed thing that Kharn wields like a Boss (hence it isn't unwieldy).

SpanielBear
01-12-2013, 19:28
"This is my Primarch's axe. Handed down over the generations. Sure, sometimes it may have needed a new handle. And when the blade was chipped, we had to replace it. But still, it's my Primarch's axe. And a mighty fine axe it is too, see."

(From memory. T. Pratchett said it better) :)

BrainFireBob
08-12-2013, 05:53
Everyone always forgets that the Primarchs are akin to warp creatures, and they had a physical presence, and a warp presence. the best example of this is the Emperor, who could tower over even the primarchs, or could appear as a normal human. But his warp presence was HUGE, they say looking straight at him in all his glory would leave even a space marine blind for weeks. Magnus is a good example of how they could change their physical size, he was in essence, a daemon prince, his size would shift from normal to a veritable giant. Lorgar was said to have had the Emperor's presence in a way, he had that warp halo of power that surrounded him. (golden demi god was a term thrown around)
The other primarchs seemed to be more rooted in the physical realm. but as they were still made with the warp, im sure they're "presence" would grow and shrink at different times.
I guess what I'm trying to point out is that they had a presence that went beyond their actual physical size, which would cause other people/SM's to see them as towering glowing glorious gods.

I remember some mention in Unremembered Empire of Primarchs being forced to use normal space marine weapons and power swords were like daggers, bolters that were too small for their hands, stuff like that.
and Corax used a heavy bolter like a normal marine would use a boltgun in his escape from Istvaan.

As for Alpharius Omegon, while they were smaller than the other primarchs, they did have to use HUGE space marines as body doubles, I'm sure these guys were huge even for space marines, if not at the level of like Alexis Polux, but at the same time, they seemed to be able to use normal space marine gear and even slip in as random space marines against their own men (short story about the necron pylon)
I would say that part of their warp presence/power (all the primarchs seem to have subtle warp powers, Curze and his stealth, same with Corax, Magnus being a daemon so on so forth)
but alpharius/omegon probably were able to deceive the eyes of whoever was looking at them to see whatever the primarchs wanted them to see. If they wanted to be a normal marine, most people would see a normal marine. If they wanted to be a glorious primarch, bada bing, Theres a Primarch. Really good for infiltration. The Legion probably carried some of this power with them in the geneseed, which is why they are so good at infiltration.
Kinda like hiding your power level in DBZ.

Deliverance Lost tells us that one Primarch lacked the growth enhancements of the others. Makes sense that this was Alpharius/Omegon; the nutrient supply systems of the pod, assuming the pods were identical, would then conceivably be sufficient to supply two such superhuman metabolisms when the zygote split, assuming that wasn't necessarily intended.