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Nazguire
30-11-2013, 23:53
Didn't see anyone post about it, so I thought I might just give a quick run down of the audio-book...



In short, if you're hoping for any sort of 'revelation' about the Thousand Sons and why Magnus will eventually choose to side with Horus, don't get too hopeful.

The story starts with Ahriman studying a recently flesh-changed Thousand Son by the name of Astinon. Astinon is, from what i gather, possessed or completely insane (most likely possessed by the way he sounds) and is bound by chains and wards in a circle whilst Ahriman studies him in the hopes of getting some extra knowledge about how to reverse the Flesh Change. We all know this eventually ends with him creating the Rubric.

Astinon taunts Ahriman, saying that the '9-fold path' is inevitable for the Thousand Sons and that even Ahriman will suffer the Flesh Change too. Ahriman ignores him. Astinon breaks free and attacks Ahriman but, with the timely intervention of Hathor Maat, Sobek and Amon, Ahriman tears him in two with his psychic powers. The group have an argument about whether to bring up their studies with Magnus. Amon is shown to nearly always side with the idea of bringing in Magnus to their mission, and apparently always defends him when other Thousand Sons suggest that Magnus doesn't care about the Legion any more. Ahriman and Maat basically say that Magnus has abandoned the Legion and it's up to them to save it.

Ahriman eventually relents and goes to the Obsidian Tower (home of Magnus) to bring it up with his Primarch. Ahriman gets in his mutated Thunderhawk (even the machines have warped and mutated on the Planet of the Sorcerers, with the 'power of the name' of the Thunderhawk turning it into a more avian aspect) and travels there. He walks in to the tower, and has a look around the library that is there and wonders out loud if Russ would think it's worth it to have destroyed all the knowledge that the Legion had previously. At the mention of Russ' name, Magnus booms down from the top of the tower "DON"T SPEAK HIS NAME" and wonders why Ahriman has come to talk to him when he could have simply used telepathy.

Ahriman explains that he wants to speak face to face about something and Magnus whisks him up to the top of the tower. Magnus reveals he has known all along about the little cabal's studies towards creating the Rubric and forbids them to do it any more. Ahriman wonders how he could have been so stupid as to think that Magnus would NOT know and asks why Magnus thinks abandoning the Legion is a good idea when the Legion is falling apart. Magnus says that there is something far more important to consider, and reveals that he has been watching what his Primarch brothers are doing so as to decide which side he will choose for the Heresy. He pulls Ahriman in to some sort of dream world where they watch the Thramas Crusade draw to a close with the last big naval battle between the I and VIII Legion fleets. Then they go to Signus where Magnus explains that Sanguinius is going to be tempted and faced with a choice he's never had before, but knows that Sanguinius is stronger than most give him credit for. Then they go to Calth that has just been saved by the Ultramarines after being almost destroyed. Ahriman watches the Ruinstorm start to take form and asks Magnus what Lorgar plans on doing and expresses his concern. Magnus says next time he speaks to Lorgar he'll convey Ahriman's concerns.

Then the story ends.

Yeah. No explanation as to what is going through Magnus' head. No decision made. No nothing. It is basically what we have already been told in several other books. That Ahriman and his pals are studying the Flesh Change. That Magnus is deciding on what side to take. But nothing else. No explanation or debates or nothing that could have made this interesting. I feel thoroughly ripped off from this audio-book. I was expecting Magnus and Ahriman to be debating over who is the worse evil, the Emperor or Horus, and what the consequences would be for either side. I was expecting something a bit more...I dunno...substantial that would help move the Thousand Sons sub-plot along.

The Horus Heresy is starting to become very vapid and artificial to me right now. It's obvious that many books/audio-books are nothing more than filler to extend it as much as possible without adding anything to it. The plot isn't moving forward. You can read half a dozen books, instead of the 30 stories that we have currently, and be at the same point as if you read the whole series. Hoping that the next few releases actually move the story along and don't feel like such a rip off as Thief of Revelations. :mad:

SonofMagnus
01-12-2013, 04:32
I respectfully disagree.

Honestly I loved it, Magnus and Ahriman and Hathor all getting voices is cool; and what the audio drama showed us, while "partially" being a re-hash of what we already know did in fact show us a revelation. A big one - "Why didnt Magnus help the thousand sons with the flesh change on the planet of the sorcerers forcing them to use the rubric???" NOW; we have the answer. It was a fairly legit reason.

(I dont know how to use spoiler tags, otherwise id go farther into the information regarded; I just dont want to spoil it for anyone)

Id say its well worth the cost. for 7.99? ill take it. Not half bad! and of course I, like you, would like FAR more and in-depth information....but for now? Meh, Ill take it gladly!!! (give it till Inferno, id imagine that a thousand sons Black Library release will accompany Inferno next X-mas)

DarkChaplain
01-12-2013, 06:36
I disagree as well. There are revelations made here.

Magnus explains his point by showing Ahriman things. If you didn't catch the message, I suggest listening to the story again.
We also hear a few more details about Sanguinius and Guilliman, which you did not bother to bring up.

You also misrepresented the last part of the story:
Ahriman does not share concerns about the ruinstorm, but about how Lorgar even DARES to attack the Ultramarines, with Guilliman's armies being Legion, basically expressing that Lorgar normally doesn't stand a chance. Magnus replies that he would share those concerns with Lorgar, but also states that history teaches that there is no such thing as an invincible army. And sometimes things need a push...

There is also the matter of the other brothers:
Magnus points out that the Dark Angels still bear the seeds of their own destruction.
Sanguinius "stands on a crossroads" and knows both paths end in blood. His strength may prevail, though. "Guilliman knows, but even he does not truly know his brother's wounded heart".

It gets also very clear just how real the threat of the flesh-change has become for the Legion - even Ahriman struggles to keep it at bay, and only his superior willpower keeps it at arm's length. We get a first hand look of just why Ahriman is so desperate to write the Rubric. We also see his rivalry and arguments with Amon, which finds its post-heresy climax in Ahriman: Exile.

We also see why Magnus is gazing out into the galaxy, and why he does not do anything to help his Legion. Ahriman even questions why a side must be chosen.

Best quote? Magnus:
Come, my son! We will be thieves of revelation. See what I see and tell me I am wrong to think beyond your concerns.


The audio production is also really good. Ahriman's voice was unexpected, but quickly grew on me. Effects and background music set the whole story into a nicely fitting mood. And being narrated by Toby Longworth is certainly a bonus!



(give it till Inferno, id imagine that a thousand sons Black Library release will accompany Inferno next X-mas)

Heh, Ahriman: Sorcerer is coming out next August/September. I'm looking forward to that!

Nazguire
02-12-2013, 01:43
I disagree as well. There are revelations made here.

Magnus explains his point by showing Ahriman things. If you didn't catch the message, I suggest listening to the story again.
We also hear a few more details about Sanguinius and Guilliman, which you did not bother to bring up.

You also misrepresented the last part of the story:
Ahriman does not share concerns about the ruinstorm, but about how Lorgar even DARES to attack the Ultramarines, with Guilliman's armies being Legion, basically expressing that Lorgar normally doesn't stand a chance. Magnus replies that he would share those concerns with Lorgar, but also states that history teaches that there is no such thing as an invincible army. And sometimes things need a push...

There is also the matter of the other brothers:
Magnus points out that the Dark Angels still bear the seeds of their own destruction.
Sanguinius "stands on a crossroads" and knows both paths end in blood. His strength may prevail, though. "Guilliman knows, but even he does not truly know his brother's wounded heart".

It gets also very clear just how real the threat of the flesh-change has become for the Legion - even Ahriman struggles to keep it at bay, and only his superior willpower keeps it at arm's length. We get a first hand look of just why Ahriman is so desperate to write the Rubric. We also see his rivalry and arguments with Amon, which finds its post-heresy climax in Ahriman: Exile.

We also see why Magnus is gazing out into the galaxy, and why he does not do anything to help his Legion. Ahriman even questions why a side must be chosen.

Best quote? Magnus:
Come, my son! We will be thieves of revelation. See what I see and tell me I am wrong to think beyond your concerns.


The audio production is also really good. Ahriman's voice was unexpected, but quickly grew on me. Effects and background music set the whole story into a nicely fitting mood. And being narrated by Toby Longworth is certainly a bonus!




Heh, Ahriman: Sorcerer is coming out next August/September. I'm looking forward to that!


We knew why Ahriman and the Thousand Sons were so desperate beforehand to create the Rubric. The Flesh Change was mutating the Legion out of control. We know that the Dark Angels are going to have problems internally from two Horus Heresy books, an audio book and every other Dark Angels publication in existence. We already know what happened at Signus with Sanguinius. We already know what happens in Lorgar's Shadow Crusade and at Calth. We knew from Betrayer that Magnus was picking a side, but we didn't know why he ended up with Horus instead of the Emperor. We already knew that Ahriman and Amon didn't exactly see eye to eye regarding the Rubric from the end of A Thousand Sons, and obviously from Ahriman: Exile. Everything that you've pointed out is meant to be a 'revelation' or something surprising is not anything we haven't had shown to us before many times. These aren't revelations or surprises. They are throw away lines on something that we have already been told or hinted before at many times in other HH books, or HH linked publications.

I feel that the whole audiobook was misrepresented as something it wasn't. From the description on the BL site I had the idea that we were going to see some insights as to why he would choose Horus over the Emperor and what his Legion would possibly think of the decision through Ahriman's eyes. We didn't get any of that. The only thing I'd agree with you honestly on is that we found out why Magnus didn't help with the Flesh Change... which we sort of could guess already anyway, due to the fact it's been stated elsewhere that Magnus' head was off in to the clouds after Prospero both mourning his world and Legion's loss, and because he was making a decision on who to join. The only difference is that he seems to have a much more focussed look on who to join in the war, rather than moping around. I previously thought to this that he didn't help his Legion because he had resigned to the fact that the Flesh Change was going to happen regardless, that he had failed his Legion in everything else, so there was no point in intervening as it Tzeentch was going to make it happen no matter what he did.

There are some interesting parts, particularly the description of the Obsidian Tower. I did enjoy that, and also how basically EVERYTHING on the Planet of the Sorcerers has mutated and gone out of control, even their machines (see: Thunderhawk becoming close to an actual hawk!). Hathor Maat's plain desperation to not ruin his beautiful features with mutation, which we were told at the end of ATS was the prime reason he joined up with Ahriman's cabal, was cool too.

Oops, messed up Ahriman with Magnus about the Ruinstorm, etc. Was tired when I wrote this. I too am looking forward to Ahriman: Sorcerer.

The production was good, I'm not doubting that. And yeah, Ahriman's voice sort of put me off initially but then I just learned to accept it. It makes him sound like an old wizened man however. I sorta imagined him during the Heresy as a youthful, vibrant and zealously dedicated sorcerer, rather than Jafar from Aladdin. But it's grown on me too. It's the content that I feel was 'misrepresented' to the audience. Sort of like Prospero Burns. However the difference between those too, in my opinion of course, is that Prospero Burns was a fantastic novel, whilst Thief of Revelations was a plainly average and hollow audio-book.

I am hoping that a new novel or novella gets announced and written soon that delves into more detail with the Thousand Sons. I feel like that, with the release of Scars, they've got so much potential to be explored but no one is giving them any attention other than the occasional cameo.

MadDokta
02-12-2013, 04:03
Graham McNeill's next HH book after Vengeful Spirit is called Crimson King, so yeah you'll be getting those details and revelations real soon ;)

MiyamatoMusashi
02-12-2013, 12:38
I really enjoyed this story. Granted the voice acting was dreadful, and it didn't really resolve anything, but it gave a good insight into Magnus' thought process, and Ahriman's hubris in being unable to comprehend his father's designs but still insistent that he knows the best path to take (with some fairly heavy-handed parallels to Magnus and the Emperor, to be fair, but still kinda cool, despite the heavy-handedness). It was never going to be anything more than stage-setting, and setting the stage is what it did... rather nicely, I thought.

For anyone that somehow missed the point of the story, you might want to listen to the end again; particularly this bit (paraphrased):

Magnus: "The time is coming for us to choose a side."
Ahriman: "Why would we choose either side? The Emperor has betrayed us... and Horus Lupercal offers us nothing we would want!"
Magnus: "Are you so sure of that, my son? Look at this. Look at what Lorgar is doing. JUST LOOK AT WHAT LORGAR IS DOING!"

...IOW, Magnus is showing Ahriman that Lorgar (perhaps more than anyone else in the galaxy, Horus and the Emperor included, and certainly more than Ahriman, and probably more than Magnus himself too) actually knows what is going on, and how, and why. For a Legion obsessed with knowledge in general, and a brotherhood seeking to understand how to overcome their own curse in particular, the chance to learn those truths from Lorgar is far beyond priceless.

Deepsix81
02-12-2013, 17:54
So, this audio kinda answered the question that I couldn't figure out after finishing Scars. With all of his void-scrying, and all of his knowledge-gathering, Magnus is still in the dark about who actually ordered the attack on Prospero? Somehow Russ has been able to detect who it was that ordered the ultimate censure on the TS, but this is beyond the reach of Magnus?

It may be that he doesn't care to find out, that other matters are more important and his belief that this came at the hand of the Emperor is most important, but I can't imagine that Russ had to dig very hard to find out. You would think that with his desire to find all of the facts, Magnus would stumble across something.

DarkChaplain
02-12-2013, 19:29
Magnus is still subject to Tzeentch's whims while on the planet of sorcerers, don't forget that. If he stares out into the warp for answers, he will still be limited by what the powers want him to see.

And even if he knows about the orders Horus gave Russ, who is to say that it matters to him at this point. The Emperor sanctioned Russ's actions, if not by order, then by not intervening. Remember, the Emperor sent his Custodians AND the silent sisterhood with Russ to Prospero - and Constantin Valdor has not set Russ straight in any meaningful way. Even if the Emperor had not issued destruction, he accepted it as a result.

Meanwhile, Horus may keep his own hand shrouded from Magnus's view, at least partially. Magnus also does not point at Russ and the Alpha Legion, or the Scars, in the audio drama - and the part of Magnus still left on Prospero in Scars was very well aware of being just a fragment. And correct me if I'm wrong, but Magnus wasn't aware that Lorgar had gotten his hands on multiple star destroyers / furios abyss ships in the beginning of Betrayer.

He realizes that his knowledge was limited, and that he has not seen every angle just yet. He is still researching and contemplating.

Nazguire
03-12-2013, 00:48
Graham McNeill's next HH book after Vengeful Spirit is called Crimson King, so yeah you'll be getting those details and revelations real soon ;)


I totally did not know that. Thanks for the heads up!

@MiyamatoMusashi

I didn't really look at it that way, fair point. If Magnus joins the traitors to gain knowledge in the hopes of overcoming his particular problems, which now I think of it Lorgar alludes to in Betrayer (along the lines of, "if you join us, you won't have to ask questions, you'll be part of the plans themselves") it would make more sense than purely revenge. I think Magnus is above just basic revenge without any gain out of it (look at Battle of the Fang by Chris Wraight)

MiyamatoMusashi
03-12-2013, 07:29
Bingo. IMO that seems to be basically the main explanation. (Magnus isn't a simple chap, so I'm sure there's far more to it than just that, but it is an explanation that makes sense and appeals to all the well-known motivations of Magnus and his Sons).

Nazguire
03-12-2013, 11:14
I'm sure that Magnus will have more reasons to join Horus than just above, but yeah probably the main reason that he ends up on the Traitors side, a possible way to understand and (in his mind) control what is happening. After all, whilst the Primarch obviously does enjoy learning for learning's sake, he also enjoys learning for the power it gives him. Until the Rubric happens there might be some sliver of hope in him that he can control everything that has happened to him if he can just know what is happening.

The chance to show the Emperor he was wrong would also be a powerful factor I suppose, considering that when Magnus gets angry, he gets really angry. As we see in A Thousand Sons whenever someone suggests that he's wrong. The chance to bash Leman Russ' head in with a psychically thrown rock would be another factor.

Other potential explanations would be some other more beneficent ones, but obviously wouldn't work out. The chance to truly implement a system of learning for all psykers in the Imperium without the rigid controls and persecution they suffer. Without restraint and without discrimination.... but that'd end up in tragedy too. But he'd refuse to see it until a thousand Prospero's were burning one day.

Kiro
19-01-2014, 09:19
Finally managed to bag this....wish I hadn't bothered at full price though.
As others have said, there isn't anything here we haven't heard before; Ahriman is setting up the Rubric, Magnus has cut himself off from his legion and is playing around in the warp.
There are, however, a couple of points I believe need addressing: first, it appears Magnus is again playing up to his governing vice - Pride. From the rhetoric he uses on Ahriman, it seems he is more concerned with his prior humiliation and not appearing a fool ("again") than in saving the Thousand Sons. It sounds like Magnus would prefer to throw in his lot with the winning team, rather than out of any familial or ideological loyalty.

Second, and thank you MiyamatoMusashi for typing it out for me :p, this line threw me:



The Emperor has betrayed us...

Eh? Come again? If anyone should know the truth about the causes of the burning of Prospero, it should be Ahriman! He is aware of Horus corrupting Russ' orders, why would he suddenly forget who the real culprit is?

On a random note, I was pleasantly amused at the description of Ahriman's subtle body - it's a Throne (http://www.angel-ology.com/images/Lg_Thrones_Angels.jpg), a type of angel.