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The Anarchist
05-12-2013, 01:12
Looking as we get more detail on each Primarch and how their brothers think of them, its seems to me that a few differnt tiers are evident. I don't mean this in a way such as who wins in a fight and whos the toughest, smartest or anything. But more as to the esteem they are held in both by each other and maybe the wider Imperium too. I would look at it as a Tier system of;

Possible Warmasters (Obviously before it was Horus chosen)
Respected by all though unlikable/not quite respected enough to be a first amongst equals
Middle of the pack
The broken, untrusted or skirting censure?


Horus
Sanguinius
Dorn (Though less so slightly than the other two?)

Lion El'Johnoson
Guilliman
Fulgrim
Ferrus Mannus

corax
Alpharius
Vulkan
Mortarion
Jaghatial Khan
Russ

Angron
Magnus
Perturabo
Lorgar
Night Haunter


Each grouping is in no particular order, merely grouped together as I wrote them from memory. I wondered if anyone see's things in a similar manner or thinks my perspective so far on each primarch and how the others might see them is wrong?

Flavius_69
05-12-2013, 01:47
I would have thought Lion would be lower down - more so then guilliman anyway - despite his impressive tally of victory's, he was very anti-social? more a middle of the pack guy, not hated but not really loved.
Just my two cents anyway, been ages since I read any HH books!

Fizzy
05-12-2013, 02:04
Angron liked Perturabo for his personality I would presume. Other than that he did care for anyone that much. He and Lorgar bonded a bit though.

agurus1
05-12-2013, 03:19
I think Perturabo would be a middle of the pack guy instead of "broken, mistrusted or skirting censure". Sure he wasn't universally liked, but despite his legions dour demeanor, they were effective, and thier prowess was respected in war. At no point was he "broken, mistrusted, or skirted censure". Certainly he doesn't belong in the same group as Conrad Curz.

Lorgar too, despite the wrist slapping he recieved by the Emperor through Guilliman, was respected and his word was heeded by many of the Primarchs. Also pretty much all of his legions conquests became well motivated and prosperous worlds in their wake.

Angron, Magnus, and Curz however do belong in the bottom of the pack I think.

This all only applies if we are talking about pre-heresy Primarchs of course lol

bittick
05-12-2013, 04:22
Horus and Sanguinius were the two that everybody loved.

Then you've got the Lion, Guilleman, Russ, I'd say. They're the 3 next most influential. All of them had something preventing them from being Warmaster. The Lion left people in awe, but they didn't love him. Too smart to connect with other people. Russ was worshipped by his men and the worlds he conquered, but he lost his temper too easily. He could lead people but couldn't keep his cool. Guilleman was too polarizing. Undoubtedly competent, but you'd lose 1/3 of the other Primarchs as soon as you announced him.

The next level down are the "all the rest" category. Their achievements aren't enough to justify them being Warmaster. Lorgar doesn't have near enough victories, and while his counsel may be wise, he's preachy and kind of a bookworm. Fulgrim is the pretty boy, and his legion spent a long time following Horus around. It wasn't until late in the Crusade that they really came into their own. If this was a football team, he's the guy who got hurt before the season started and only got to play in the last two or three games. Ferrus, Corax, Vulkan and Khan we just don't have a lot of information about. While they're all supposed to be great Primarchs, they're the B students of the group. Perturabo was the cleanup crew. While he could crack the toughest fortresses, that basically made him the Imperium's janitor. Dorn was a defensive genius, not really the type you need to lead men in conquest. It's like asking Elvis to star in a movie. Great musician, not a great actor.

Then you've got the broken ones. Angron, Mortarion, Magnus, and Kurze. These are the psychos and misfits. Nobody trusts Angron because he's a half step from becoming Leatherface. Mortarion looks like he's a zombie. When Night Haunter walks in, these little girls with a jump rope sing "One, two, Kurze is coming for you..." He's absolutely a serial killer and everybody knows it. And Magnus is a psyker, and nobody trusts them at all.

Finally you've got Alpharius. Yes, he's the guy who has less chance at being Warmaster than the last 4 psychos. He can't be Warmaster because the whole thing is already over when he gets found. Too late to the party, everyone has already gone home. Horus was already appointed Warmaster when they found the new guy.

Plague Lord
05-12-2013, 05:05
finally you've got alpharius. Yes, he's the guy who has less chance at being warmaster than the last 4 psychos. He can't be warmaster because the whole thing is already over when he gets found. Too late to the party, everyone has already gone home. Horus was already appointed warmaster when they found the new guy.

just as planned...

m1acca1551
05-12-2013, 06:05
Alpharius was already the real warmaster...

I agree with Bitticks' remarks,

I would go one further though, I'd actually put Horus amongst the second tier of primarchs, with only Sanguinius as the most popular and all round loved and praised of the brothers. Horus even says this himself, when he was given the title of warmaster the choice made many primarchs angry and jealous.

I honestly see that Sanguinius is exactly the image of his father, perfection and balance, loyalty and honour, strength and courage with none of the emotional character flaws under pinning many of the other primarchs, including Horus himself.

harlokin
05-12-2013, 06:40
I honestly see that Sanguinius is exactly the image of his father, perfection and balance, loyalty and honour, strength and courage with none of the emotional character flaws under pinning many of the other primarchs, including Horus himself.

He is not exactly the image of his father. I don't think that Sanguinius has the force of character or ruthlessness needed, traits that the Emperor has in spades. If the Emeror had been like Sanguinius, he would still be on Terra trying to persuade the factions to 'unify nicely'.

Lorgar talks about Sanguinius' self-doubt in Betrayer. While he isn't the most impartial narrator, the context is such that it is very believable.

Polaria
05-12-2013, 07:05
Sanguinus was the nice guy. Maybe even too nice. In any case he wasn't like Emperor because, frankly, Emperor was quite an *******.

Grit
05-12-2013, 07:33
According to massacre Ferrus was in the picking to be warmaster

Kor'Vesh
05-12-2013, 08:30
Yeah, Ferrus was certainly a hugely respected warlord according to massacre, and held in high regard by the other primarchs. He was in GUilimann's "indomitable few" in Know no fear, along with dorn, sanguinius and Horus (I think). I did rate these as the top 4, with GUilimann's fifth (I agree that he was, as is, a polarizing figure).

Massacre also tells us that Vulcan was widely respected and liked. The sallies, alphas and wolves formed a trio of legions that were isolated from the others by the emperor upon their formation, and were thus mistrusted by the others. After their reunion with Vulcan, the salamanders won the respect of the other legions, while doubts remained over the other two. Guilimann talks about his 'dark brooding nature' though, so he clearly wasn't a favourite. I'd guess this would be due to a clash of outlooks though - efficiency in war vs a more humanitarian, sacrificing outlook. For this reason I'd have Vulcan high up in "the rest" and Russ lower down. I think people liked Russ, but never felt secure with him - that was his role really though!

The ones I'd struggle with would be the lion (as I just know little about him personally), fullgrim (hard to place... I think he would be a marmite primarch to the others) and corax, as little is known. The khan was clearly head strong, with an unruly legion. He'd be in a similar braket to Russ, but a little lower. So a full rough ranking might be...

1. Sanguinius
2. Horus
3. Dorn
4. Ferrus
5. Guilimann
6. The lion
7. Vulcan
8. Fulgrim
9. Russ
10. Perterabo
11. Corax
12. The khan
13. Lorgar
14. Mortarion
15. Alpharius
16. Magnus
17. Angron
18. Kurze

9-12 are,I think the most contentious, and you could swap Morty and lorgar too.

Grit
05-12-2013, 08:53
Thought Guilliman's indomitable few were Dorn, Sanguinius, Ferrus and Russ.

Though he said he could win any battle with one of those at his side. Don't think Horus was mentioned though it was a while ago since I read it.

Also in the Wolves HH novels Russ wasn't to bothered about being nominated for war master according to some. was just annoyed that he couldn't be there

Kor'Vesh
05-12-2013, 09:20
Thought Guilliman's indomitable few were Dorn, Sanguinius, Ferrus and Russ.

Could well be... I haven't read it for a while either! I was mainly using it to highlight the esteme Ferrus was held in.

Russ is a weird one. I think he was held in high esteme, and I think he was liked. But I doubt he was trusted in the same way as other primarchs a) because of the feral nature of his legion, b) because of his role as 'executioner' - he was the ultimate sanction, and that would surely make many uneasy with him. Add in c) his volatile nature, and that's why I put him low down. You could really justify him prety much anywhere from 4 to 15 though!

You're right that Russ didn't care about being warmaster though - he didn't expect it, want it or believe he could be chosen for it. That's an awesome thing about Russ, he is totally comfortable with what he is, and what is needed of him by the emperor. He wouldn't care where you place him in that list.

Luxem
05-12-2013, 12:27
This might be of some assistance,

http://menducia.atspace.com/primarchs/XVIII.html

Tymell
05-12-2013, 13:33
Personally, I'd move Vulkan and Perturabo up a spot each: Vulkan might be a bit too humble for some of his more bloodthirsty brothers, but I think he still had a lot of respect for his determination and loyalty. Perturabo was an abrasive, cold personality, but until Olympia I don't think he was in any danger of censure, and I'd imagine plenty of the other primarchs had respect for his abilities.

I'd also put Magnus and Lorgar into a category of their own. While both were censured in some fashion and actual respect for them wouldn't be very high, they weren't thought of as barely-controlled animals like Angron and Curze were.

harlokin
05-12-2013, 15:21
Spoiler: Unremembered Empire

In Unremembered Empire, Guilliman apparently states that Horus was truly happy at being made Warmaster over not Guillimen, Sanguinius, or Dorn, but the Lion.

Guilliman apparently also says that he only looked up to two Primarchs. Horus...and the Lion. He also looked down on others.

Perrin
05-12-2013, 23:45
I'd move Magnus up to middle of the pack as well. Morty appears to not like him, Russ dislikes his warfare style and morals but he seems pretty tight with other Primarchs. The Khan and Sanguinius supported him with the Librarius program, and so did all of the Primarchs that adopted it you could say, and he was close with Fulgrim and Lorgar.

budman
06-12-2013, 15:46
This might be of some assistance,

http://menducia.atspace.com/primarchs/XVIII.html


wow that is kinda awesome I never put them in to the major acrana that way but it works :D

09philj
06-12-2013, 15:54
Gulliman was surely the best, even if not seen so by others. He was a great leader, but not a megalomaniac. A great warrior, but also a great statesman.

I suspect you could also see a lot of the primarchs personalities in their modern chapters leaders.

Inquisitor Engel
06-12-2013, 16:20
One little facet we get from the Horus Heresy series from Forge World is that Ferrus Mannus was not particularly nice to 'mortals,' which puts him at odds with Vulkan on a couple of occasions, and likely Guilliman as well.

Omegon
06-12-2013, 16:51
I don't think it's so simple as creating a hierarchy of whom would be best and who would be the worst. Everyone has their own opinion and two would look the same (though I cannot see anyone thinking Angron would be best to be Warmaster, even Angron).

For example, Purturabo thought Horus was a good choice, we could surmise that in his eyes Lorgar, Magnus and the Lion would be good as well becuase he is friends with the first two to an extent and overall he respects intelligence and views it as the most important trait in a leader. There are those that would share his opinion to an extent but none would be exactly the same, the sticking point would be Dorn for Purturabo who he views as a pompous ass, but equally Fulgrim who he viewed as a Dandy and the Khan, Russ and Angron because they are savages. Also, at what point in the Great Crusade are we talking? At Ullanor? because I believe by that point Monarchia had happened and Lorgar was a very different man and completely different motivations to what would make him believe was the best Primarch.

I think it's more interesting to see what 'cliques' there would be in the Primarchs, which ones get along best and which get along worst (this crosses traitors and loyalists afterall and there are some curveballs like Fulgrim and Ferrus Manus).

Kijamon
06-12-2013, 17:47
The Imperial Fists, Space Wolves and White Scars all loved each other. The SW and WS I can get but I don't really see what Rogal Dorn thought was so great about the other two.

I just can't imagine Russ being in the running for Warmaster, beyond the fact that he got stuff done he wasn't exactly rocking a personality (at least not so far).

Tymell
06-12-2013, 17:56
Indeed, and that's why Horus was the best candidate, or at least among them: he combined battle prowess, strategic genius, inspiring leadership, effortless charisma and he had the respect of most other primarchs, even those who didn't get along with many others. Others might have been better in certain areas, but very few others had all of those things in spades.

While I could see a number of other primarchs fulfilling that role in his absence, from what I've read in the HH series, Sanguinius was probably the only other one really in the running.

DuskRaider
06-12-2013, 18:51
I'd place Mortarion higher, honestly. For all his faults, he actually got along well with most of the other Primarchs. It seems that Corax and Guilliman opened questioned his loyalty and motives with the Emperor, while Perturabo just didn't like him (per Betrayal). In the newest novel focused on White Scars, we see him having a casual conversation with Sanguinius, the Khan, and Fulgrim. They all seem pretty chummy (although Jaghatai and Mortarion show a bit of disdain toward Fulgrim). We see him being friendly with Angron in Battle of the Eisenstein, and we know he was quite close with both Curze and Horus. He also worked together with Russ to orchestrate the Edict of Nikea. His personality probably lended itself more to blend in than stand out as a freak, as many of the Primarchs probably appreciated that he was more or less the infantryman's Primarch and he thought very much like a soldier (more so than most of the others). The only one he has open animosity toward seems to be Magnus, and that doesn't necessarily seem to be mutual either.

Aspect78
07-12-2013, 01:43
I think unremembered empire shed quite a bit of light on this.

Horus, Sanguinius, the Lion and Guilliman were the top tier possible warmaster candidates.

Nazguire
08-12-2013, 09:53
Mortarion seems to be quite the stand out in Primarchs in a lot of ways as Dusk Raider said, but I could never see him as any where near a candidate for Warmaster. Unremembered Empire and a couple of other recent HH novels pretty much confirmed that Horus and the Lion were the only real candidates for Warmastership, as Guilliman was too concentrated on Ultramar, Sanguinius was too 'ephemeral' and detached from Humanity in obviously physical ways, and the rest are obvious reasons (Angron too crazed, Kurze too psychotic, Magnus too focused his purported 'awakening of the human species to enlightenment', Russ too barbarian king, etc)
What I liked about Scars is how it does emphasise Mortarion's positive qualities as a leader; he is the soldier's soldier, he does see the practical situation in conflicts, he's done to earth enough that he doesn't get enamoured by an overly romantic view of the Crusade, he inspires utter loyalty in his Legion and he is a genius tactician. Khan seems to have genuine respect for him, as do most of the Primarchs. Even if they don't personally like him, they certainly respect his abilities as a soldier and leader of men. He's definitely a Primarch that you'd see in the trenches with you, as opposed to more stately Primarchs like Guilliman or Horus.

TheDungen
09-12-2013, 01:59
This might be of some assistance,

http://menducia.atspace.com/primarchs/XVIII.html

This is very interesting, first off, the emperor (of man, not the tarot) is the fool. And then notice how the tarots balance each other out when they are all there, but remove say one or two and they quickly fracture. I had not considered this before that it might have been the very removal of the traits the emperor (again of man) could not abide in primarchs 2 and 11 that led to the brotherhood collapsing.

Someone to understand rather than study the warp to hold magnus back, or someone to ground lorgar's faith in more concrete matters.

ofcourse the analogie has weaknesses the hermit, the emperor (the tarot) and the chariot are all supposed to get along, while the lion, horus and guilliman all seemed to view each other as rivals.

hellharlequin
10-12-2013, 23:32
The Imperial Fists, Space Wolves and White Scars all loved each other. The SW and WS I can get but I don't really see what Rogal Dorn thought was so great about the other two.

I just can't imagine Russ being in the running for Warmaster, beyond the fact that he got stuff done he wasn't exactly rocking a personality (at least not so far).

AFAIGI the khan and leman russ didn't have high opinions on each other.

TheDungen
11-12-2013, 00:27
Then again who liked khan and who did khan like, we know almost nothing of him.

Tymell
11-12-2013, 10:03
Then again who liked khan and who did khan like, we know almost nothing of him.

I've only read Brotherhood of the Storm, not Scars yet, but from that it seems he and Horus were very close, but in general he was viewed with some mistrust.

Inquisitor Engel
11-12-2013, 16:08
I've only read Brotherhood of the Storm, not Scars yet, but from that it seems he and Horus were very close, but in general he was viewed with some mistrust.

IIRC in one of the novels it's discussed as a very serious possibility that he's sided with Horus - I THINK it's in Unremembered Empire, but not 100% on that.

DuskRaider
11-12-2013, 19:46
Mortarion seems to be quite the stand out in Primarchs in a lot of ways as Dusk Raider said, but I could never see him as any where near a candidate for Warmaster. Unremembered Empire and a couple of other recent HH novels pretty much confirmed that Horus and the Lion were the only real candidates for Warmastership, as Guilliman was too concentrated on Ultramar, Sanguinius was too 'ephemeral' and detached from Humanity in obviously physical ways, and the rest are obvious reasons (Angron too crazed, Kurze too psychotic, Magnus too focused his purported 'awakening of the human species to enlightenment', Russ too barbarian king, etc)
What I liked about Scars is how it does emphasise Mortarion's positive qualities as a leader; he is the soldier's soldier, he does see the practical situation in conflicts, he's down to earth enough that he doesn't get enamoured by an overly romantic view of the Crusade, he inspires utter loyalty in his Legion and he is a genius tactician. Khan seems to have genuine respect for him, as do most of the Primarchs. Even if they don't personally like him, they certainly respect his abilities as a soldier and leader of men. He's definitely a Primarch that you'd see in the trenches with you, as opposed to more stately Primarchs like Guilliman or Horus.

Exactly. He would never be Warmaster, but then again I don't think he would take the job anyhow. He was a leader to his men, but I don't think he'd want the responsibility of leading the Imperium, an honestly it seems he has it out for anyone who does. In Scars you get the feeling he's becoming fed up with Horus, but at this point he's got himself in a situation he's unable to free himself of. I have a feeling Mortarion will be on the cusp of rebelling against Horus when Typhon must force his hand and push his Primarch and the Legion into the clutches of Nurgle. The conversation between Jaghatai and Mortarion definitely show he has misgivings about his allies, and I honestly feel that if given the opportunity, he would have defected (or at least openly warred against both sides, most likely bringing at the very least Curze with him).

Turion Rilyaloce
12-12-2013, 00:11
This might be of some assistance,

http://menducia.atspace.com/primarchs/XVIII.html

When reading the High Priestess' description I immediately thought of Malcador... Going off the basis that this is ludicrous (haha) it's interesting to me that the missing primarchs in this arrangement are very complimentary, with the high priestess being similar to the emperor in leadership and psychic power (not claiming equal), while Fortune is against stagnant order and rules for their own sake. Maybe a little joint rebellion led by the premonition of the High Priestess along with the loyalty and problem with authority of Fortune. Just a fun guess.


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Nazguire
12-12-2013, 03:52
Exactly. He would never be Warmaster, but then again I don't think he would take the job anyhow. He was a leader to his men, but I don't think he'd want the responsibility of leading the Imperium, an honestly it seems he has it out for anyone who does. In Scars you get the feeling he's becoming fed up with Horus, but at this point he's got himself in a situation he's unable to free himself of. I have a feeling Mortarion will be on the cusp of rebelling against Horus when Typhon must force his hand and push his Primarch and the Legion into the clutches of Nurgle. The conversation between Jaghatai and Mortarion definitely show he has misgivings about his allies, and I honestly feel that if given the opportunity, he would have defected (or at least openly warred against both sides, most likely bringing at the very least Curze with him).

Yeah pretty much. That's how I see the Legion fleet getting stranded in the Warp too. Mortarion sees that The Emperor is the lesser of two evils and can't abide by the sorcery of the Warp corrupting his 'ally' Legions any more, and decides to defect at the last moment before Terra (where his Legion would have more than likely turned the tide of the Siege, I'd say) and Typhon has a panic attack and kills the Navigators (and we all know what happened from there). Could be another reason why Typhon views Mortarion as weak: wasn't able to see things through to the end without 'chickening out' (as opposed to trying to save their immortal souls)

m1acca1551
12-12-2013, 05:40
Yeah pretty much. That's how I see the Legion fleet getting stranded in the Warp too. Mortarion sees that The Emperor is the lesser of two evils and can't abide by the sorcery of the Warp corrupting his 'ally' Legions any more, and decides to defect at the last moment before Terra (where his Legion would have more than likely turned the tide of the Siege, I'd say) and Typhon has a panic attack and kills the Navigators (and we all know what happened from there). Could be another reason why Typhon views Mortarion as weak: wasn't able to see things through to the end without 'chickening out' (as opposed to trying to save their immortal souls)

It's a great explanation as to why they weren't present at the siege, and I know I would thoroughly enjoy seeing what Mortarions state of mind was when he decided to turn to nurgle for help, was it the act of a desperate father or did the marines choose for him?

MvS
12-12-2013, 08:05
When reading the High Priestess' description I immediately thought of Malcador.

I thought the High Priestess and the Heirophant should be swapped, with Lorgar being the High Priestess. Seemed to fit better. For me. ;)

Karhedron
12-12-2013, 10:00
It's a great explanation as to why they weren't present at the siege, and I know I would thoroughly enjoy seeing what Mortarions state of mind was when he decided to turn to nurgle for help, was it the act of a desperate father or did the marines choose for him?

Interesting. In the original fluff for the Siege of Terra, the Death Guard and Mortarion were in the first wave. Has this been retconned in the HH novels?



Suddenly, the night was streaked by the plasma contrails of drop-pods. Within the Emperor's halls even the Space Marines shuddered knowing that they would soon confront their lost and damned brethren. The terrifying prospect of facing those corrupt Primarchs who had sold their souls to Chaos filled every man's mind with indescribable horror and dread.

The pods touched ground and from them erupted the mightiest champions of Chaos, the renegade Space Marines of the lost Chapters. These were no longer the fine human warriors of legend but twisted creatures, bodies warped by the energies of Chaos, minds twisted by their devotion to the dark powers. If what had happened to the Space Marines was bad then what had happened to their Primarchs was worse. They had been created higher in the Emperor's esteem and had fallen further. None of their former comrades would have recognised them - they had been transformed into creatures both daemonic and exultant.

At Mortarion's soft-spoken command the Death Guard emerrged silently from the festering cocoons of their drop-pods and advanced on their terror-stricken foes. The dread runes on Mortarion's scythe glittered eerily in the night as he gestured for them to advance.

Tymell
12-12-2013, 10:17
Interesting. In the original fluff for the Siege of Terra, the Death Guard and Mortarion were in the first wave. Has this been retconned in the HH novels?

I'm certainly not aware of anything stating they aren't present for it. And I'd be surprised if it were so, I'd imagine if anything they'd want to get as many appearing in the big final showdown as possible.

DuskRaider
12-12-2013, 12:59
Death Guard are definitely at the Siege of Terra. It's their responsibility to hold the Space Ports, among other things. They come into heavy conflict with the White Scars in particular.

Hengist
12-12-2013, 19:45
Interesting. In the original fluff for the Siege of Terra, the Death Guard and Mortarion were in the first wave. Has this been retconned in the HH novels?

The old, old background from Epic Renegades established the business of the Death Guard and their primarch turning to Nurgle only after becoming becalmed in the warp, something expanded upon in C:CSM 2nd ed. The idea of Mortarion wavering in his allegiance to Horus and having his hand forced by Typhus was a later addition, from either the 3.5 or 4th ed. books.

I don't see that either need necessarily contradict the newly-plaguey Death Guard being among the first to arrive on Terra, however; the Heresy lasted seven years, after all.

Nazguire
13-12-2013, 00:31
The old, old background from Epic Renegades established the business of the Death Guard and their primarch turning to Nurgle only after becoming becalmed in the warp, something expanded upon in C:CSM 2nd ed. The idea of Mortarion wavering in his allegiance to Horus and having his hand forced by Typhus was a later addition, from either the 3.5 or 4th ed. books.

I don't see that either need necessarily contradict the newly-plaguey Death Guard being among the first to arrive on Terra, however; the Heresy lasted seven years, after all.

The "Mortarion not sure where he stands" thing has only been mentioned in Scars, to my knowledge. Typhus let the shield down cause he killed the Navigators and said that his powers could lead them through the Warp. In 3.5 it was said that he was cross breed between Barabarans and the alien necromancer guys, so had quite powerful psychic powers as a Librarian before becoming First Captain. Obviously parts of that have been retconned. I wouldn't be surprised if he went on a spree and killed the navigators of the Endurance en route to Terra and had his agents in other ships do a similar thing once he saw that Mortarion wasn't as committed.

Hengist
13-12-2013, 01:00
My memory is hazy, but I'm sure I've always thought that was how it was said to have happened. If it's not in the old Chaos fluff, then my imagination has successfully second-guessed Black Library.

Turion Rilyaloce
13-12-2013, 06:56
I thought the High Priestess and the Heirophant should be swapped, with Lorgar being the High Priestess. Seemed to fit better. For me. ;)

I can see it from the first two paragraphs, but I think the rest of the qualities and also how he interacts with Gulliman, Russ, Magnus, and Corax are way off, if he was instead the high priestess.

Also it says that the high priestess is compassionate, preferring to be behind the scenes, is inspirational to others without trying, and best understands how to communicate the emperors plans to all the others. I don't think any of these qualities are Lorgars.

But there are definitely traits that he could be seen as possessing from the high priest, but this is after his illumination in my mind, while I think these descriptions are of what the primarchs were meant to be intrinsically from their beginnings.

Very interesting stuff though.


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budman
13-12-2013, 07:28
Interesting. In the original fluff for the Siege of Terra, the Death Guard and Mortarion were in the first wave. Has this been retconned in the HH novels?

not yet as we are about 3-4 years out before we even get close to the Siege of Terra.

aim
13-12-2013, 11:51
Indeed, and that's why Horus was the best candidate, or at least among them: he combined battle prowess, strategic genius, inspiring leadership, effortless charisma and he had the respect of most other primarchs, even those who didn't get along with many others. Others might have been better in certain areas, but very few others had all of those things in spades.

While I could see a number of other primarchs fulfilling that role in his absence, from what I've read in the HH series, Sanguinius was probably the only other one really in the running.

This sums it up for me.

You've got Horus and Sanguinius that are the all rounders, Then you've got a few who are almost-nearly

Lion - Has all the 'all rounder' traits needed, except he has a defective personality to the point of being socially inept
Guilliman - Exactly the same as lion, has all the required 'all-rounder' traits, except his personality, his issue being that he is so arrogant and dismissive of others that hes kind of hated.

The rest were deficient in some way more serious than their personality issues, either tactically skewed, logistically challenged, clinically insane, lacking drive/motivation to fight in the way that was needed (magnus, pre-census lorgar, vulkan, I'm looking at you here lads) or a combination of the above with the addition of massive personality issues.

DuskRaider
13-12-2013, 16:03
My memory is hazy, but I'm sure I've always thought that was how it was said to have happened. If it's not in the old Chaos fluff, then my imagination has successfully second-guessed Black Library.

As Nazguire says, it's only a recent update to the fluff. Prior to the Scars novel, Mortarion's alliegance to Horus was unwavering. In his conversation with the Khan on Prospero, we see a different side of Mortarion. He has watched everything he worked for (Edict of Nikea) go down the drain amongst his allies, and also envisions Horus going down the same path as the Emperor is currently on. He even offers Jaghatai an alliance to topple Horus (from what I recall). Obviously, the Khan rebukes his offers, they battle, and part ways. But it seems that there's a big possibility for Mortarion to attempt to make amends with the Imperium and Typhon forcing his hand to enslave the Legion to Nurgle.

MvS
14-12-2013, 08:25
I can see it from the first two paragraphs, but I think the rest of the qualities and also how he interacts with Gulliman, Russ, Magnus, and Corax are way off, if he was instead the high priestess.

To be fair though, although this is a very interesting list, none of the characters fit together perfectly with the tarot descriptions. For instance, Fulgrim / The Empress is said on that list to be "very accepting of other's idiosyncracies" which simply isn't the case with the perfection obsessed Fulgrim, in fact it doesn't mention his obsession with perfection in all things at all.

Similarly, many of the Heirophant's traits are very close to how Rogal Dorn has been described. Although again, the fits are never perfect. So there's flexibility.

Although this is a thread about how the primarchs related to each other, the descriptions through the link also refer to their character traits, presumeably as they would be at their base nature and in the eyes of 'the masses', not just each other. Perceptions of Lorgar were also detrimentally influenced by the events on Monarchia. Had Monarchia not happened, although not everyone would have liked Lorgar, he wouldn't have been tarred with the brush of 'failure'.

Anyway, looking at how Lorgar was presented in the First Heretic I think he was actually very compassionate for a Primarch, something that some of his brothers interpreted as weakness. He cared for humanity as individuals and as group, his problem was that he tried to interpret the "we're right because we're right because our Emperor is cleverer than you and because it's for your own good and we can kill you if you don't agree, don't argue" of the Imperial Truth into "we're right because our Emperor really is a god, the God, of humanity, who has guided us, helped us and protected us since the dawn of our civilisation and that's why he knows more than us, that's why has a right to act as he does and that's we should trust him and be united by his Truth, here are my proofs of his divinity..."

It's perhaps true that he didn't work behind the scenes as such, if for nothing else because he was such a great demagogue, but even then he put himself and his sons as secondary to the Word they carried, and that Word was, ostensibly at least, the Emperor.

Lorgar was very definitely inspirational to others without trying. That was the secret of his success, rather than through perfection in warfare or unmatchable organisation. I'm not sure that he communicated exactly what the Emperor wanted - or rather, I'm not sure he communicated absolute obedience to the Imperium in the way the Emperor wanted - but then again his planets (prior to his disgrace) were amongst the most loyal to the Emperor in person, rather than to the Primarch who subdued the planet or to the concept of empire in general. Swings and roundabouts.

Still though, as you've pointed out, there are also very strong elements of the Heirophant in him too. As with the other crossovers between the tarot descriptions and the Primarchs, that's more a weakness with the list than anything else.

Turion Rilyaloce
14-12-2013, 10:08
Still though, as you've pointed out, there are also very strong elements of the Heirophant in him too. As with the other crossovers between the tarot descriptions and the Primarchs, that's more a weakness with the list than anything else.

You are right they are not perfect, I think they are maybe what they were intended to be if ideal, but we see that all developed inevitable flaws.

You make some very good points, but the one I still disagree about, is inspiration to others without trying. From a context of how they saw each other, I'd say none were inspired by Lorgar, rather we was seen as the runt, until the changes brought about by censure.

Since it's been great to converse with you, who is your favorite Primarch, and did their Tarot match what you envisioned, and how they are seen by peers?

Mine is the Lion, I think he was one of the main rivals for Horus, and the one Horus was most competitive with. I think Horus saw the things in others that would hold them back as rivals (Sanguinius' self doubt, Guilliman's predictability), but the Lion was his equal in everything but charisma.

Funnily enough the description of the Hermit interaction with fulgrim, is where his perfectionism is mentioned to counter your point. I also think his interactions with Russ, and Curze are spot on based on the events between them.



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TheDungen
15-12-2013, 22:28
except the lion and russ did develop a trusting friendship in the end (though it took the brother they liked more going of the deep end to make them realise they had one trait in common: unbreakable loyalty), I like the lion as the hermit it'd been nice to see him interact with the magus (magnus) as the tarot suggests.

As for the lions lacking leadership skills the question is how well known that was outside of the legion. From what I undestand it was more about him not trusting anyone completely, a trait that would only really be obvious if you were one of those people expecting him to trust you.

bittick
16-12-2013, 00:25
The Lion's problem wasn't that he couldn't inspire people. He was inspiring as can be. The Lion's problem is that he couldn't read people. He was an honorable and noble knight, but the intricacies of interpersonal communication were difficult for him. Not only did he have a hard time determining who was his ally and who was not ("I can always trust my good friend, Judas McBackstab..."), his own generally silent nature left others wondering about his loyalty.

Leman Russ wasn't exactly known for his perceptive nature. "Yup, good ol' Horus sent me to kill the Thousand Sons. Not gonna think twice about it. Wonder how he made his eyes glow red like that. Oh well." But he was an open book as far as other people go. Never a great poker player ("Dammit! A pair of fours!?!"), everyone knew where they stood with Russ. But in an age where people were turning traitor left and right, the quiet and reserved Lion made others more cautious than they needed to be.

Turion Rilyaloce
16-12-2013, 03:35
Both very good points about the Lion.

However I'd say that being mysterious and quiet about allegiance was wiser in this circumstance. It's not smart to go out and openly declare to anyone you are not sure of. This opens you up to a greater danger. If you don't know who to trust, it's better to trust no one and this is what he did.

Porkus Pigu
05-01-2014, 12:35
I think Horus was the best!

For the Warmaster! Lupercal! Lupercal! Lupercal!

Porkus Pigu
05-01-2014, 12:36
Or Sanguinius.....

jakejackjake
03-02-2014, 17:07
Horus and Sanguinius were the two that everybody loved.

.
It's like asking Elvis to star in a movie. Great musician, not a great actor.


.
Terrible analogy since Elvis was the star of many movies that did really well

Ramius4
03-02-2014, 17:16
Terrible analogy since Elvis was the star of many movies that did really well

Ace Ventura made a ton of money too, it doesn't make Jim Carrey a good actor.

By your logic, McDonald's produces a high-grade, premium hamburger, based on the fact that they sell well.

jakejackjake
03-02-2014, 18:17
Ace Ventura made a ton of money too, it doesn't make Jim Carrey a good actor.

By your logic, McDonald's produces a high-grade, premium hamburger, based on the fact that they sell well.

Nope you're drawing assumptions. He said it's "like asking Elvis to be in a movie" and he was asked repeatedly. My logic would be more like if someone said "it's like McDonalds being asked to sell chicken patties as well as hamburgers" because they already do. Not saying "McDonalds burgers are the best"

What I meant to say was that his acting was considered good. So it was a bad analogy. I never said something selling made it good. Funny that you used Jim Carrey though since most critics think...

bittick
04-02-2014, 01:09
Nope you're drawing assumptions. He said it's "like asking Elvis to be in a movie" and he was asked repeatedly. My logic would be more like if someone said "it's like McDonalds being asked to sell chicken patties as well as hamburgers" because they already do. Not saying "McDonalds burgers are the best"

What I meant to say was that his acting was considered good. So it was a bad analogy. I never said something selling made it good. Funny that you used Jim Carrey though since most critics think...

I specifically chose Elvis because he was in movies. Have you ever seen an Elvis movie? They are not good. He's the King of Rock and Roll. He has no similar title as an actor.

jakejackjake
05-02-2014, 15:27
I can see it from the first two paragraphs, but I think the rest of the qualities and also how he interacts with Gulliman, Russ, Magnus, and Corax are way off, if he was instead the high priestess.

Also it says that the high priestess is compassionate, preferring to be behind the scenes, is inspirational to others without trying, and best understands how to communicate the emperors plans to all the others. I don't think any of these qualities are Lorgars.

But there are definitely traits that he could be seen as possessing from the high priest, but this is after his illumination in my mind, while I think these descriptions are of what the primarchs were meant to be intrinsically from their beginnings.

Very interesting stuff though.


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Before Lorgar fell those qualities fit him absolutely perfectly in every early description of him. Actually even in the beginning of the his fall if you go by the BL books. Well except communicating the Emperors plans, but he is inspirational without trying to anyone who looks upon him. Even others. Kharn even says upon first seeing him that he is awe inspiring and inspirational just to look upon, and he is definitely described as the most compassionate Primarch early in the HH novels.

jakejackjake
05-02-2014, 15:33
I specifically chose Elvis because he was in movies. Have you ever seen an Elvis movie? They are not good. He's the King of Rock and Roll. He has no similar title as an actor.

He was viewed as a good actor by critics. My point still stands.

Tymell
05-02-2014, 23:06
Do we really need a thread on the Primarchs and their views on one another to move onto a discussion of Elvis' movie career?

InstantKarma
06-02-2014, 13:45
Thought Guilliman's indomitable few were Dorn, Sanguinius, Ferrus and Russ.

Though he said he could win any battle with one of those at his side. Don't think Horus was mentioned though it was a while ago since I read it.

Also in the Wolves HH novels Russ wasn't to bothered about being nominated for war master according to some. was just annoyed that he couldn't be there

I thought in that 'Unremembered Empire' novel that Gulliman looked up to The Lion as if he were an older brother, and with more esteem than he had for Horus.

New Cult King
12-02-2014, 10:55
On-topic please.

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