PDA

View Full Version : 30k legion traits in 40k chaos?



Plague Lord
06-12-2013, 03:24
So there is a heated argument going on in another thread here about night lords and codex hopping and so on. Some people suggested the 30k nightlord army instead of the chaos book. I kind of see the merits of such a move and it goes for other legions too for example word bearers. Gal vorbak for me is what possessed should have been in the csm codex!

Now as for my question. Would implementing the 30k legion traits into the 40k chaos codex work and not overpower the dex? Sure it would need some tinkering but let's go with nightlords:

I'd go with something like this:
Nightlords Legion trait: +1 to wound in assault if outnumbering the enemy, any night lords unit may purchase fear&night vision for 10points, when the Night lords warlord is slain every night lords unit must take a morale check.


So it has a bonus, a drawback and an option to buff squads. The same could be done with every legion tbh.

I would like to know how you would something like this affect the balance of the game and would it bring csm on par with for instance tau/eldar or would it be too overpowered?

agurus1
06-12-2013, 08:20
YE GODS NO! Why might you ask? Game balance, as you said pure and simple. Don't get me wrong I use the Legion list all the time (though no Traits yet, they haven't done Iron Warriors yet), but the Legion List is balanced internally, all of its rules are meant to be used with its own army list. There is no way to effectively port over their rules especially some free stuff like Legion Traits (a lot of the traits are free) to CSM w/o really putting the book off balance. Combine Legion traits w/ stuff like the Heldrake, Plague Marine spam, obliterators ect... you are getting the picture, it would just make the more WAAC lists more overpowered. If you want to use Legion Traits, you should use the Legion Rules.

Now, do I think that it might be nice down the road for the CSM book to receive a sort of Chapter Tactics or Legion Tactics but for 40k? Sure, that would be great. But the Legion Lists and all of their rules should only be used with their own list (don't use a Primarch w/ C:SM or CSM for instance). Nuff said.

Col. Dash
06-12-2013, 12:02
Why not just play the Legion list in 40k? Its perhaps the most balanced list made for the game and have all the stuff the Night Lords have anyway.

frikandel speciaal
06-12-2013, 12:40
Why not just play the Legion list in 40k? Its perhaps the most balanced list made for the game and have all the stuff the Night Lords have anyway.

I fully agree. 30K has a nice balance. No units are neglected, everything has it's place, just stay away from Primarchs (Angron is ok though).
The list will suffer against a lot of other army's, but who cares? You'll get to play your legion!

malisteen
06-12-2013, 12:45
Units with re-rollable 2++ saves, entire armies of shooting ignoring cover saves entirely, nigh-invincible heldrakes removing entire units at a time, cronwing, grav bikes, double force orgs, allied detachments, superheavies, D weapons, mega fortifications, subdetachment minicodeces, bonus formations entirely outside of the force org chart, what 'game balance' in 40k are we even talking about here? You might as well be running your Fantasy army, or Warmachine warband, or an assortment of D&D characters as your army for how tight the 40k rules aren't right now.

Wanna run your 30k army in 40k, complete with legion tactics and primarchs? Sure, whatever, why not. Just so long as you don't mind me running my army out of the 3.5 chaos marine codex, with the addition of any new units added since then.

passwordman
06-12-2013, 13:39
I don't know why people think Night Lords should get night vision considering all space marines have it in the fluff.


Passwordman

frikandel speciaal
06-12-2013, 14:04
I don't know why people think Night Lords should get night vision considering all space marines have it in the fluff.


Passwordman

Night Lords have better eyes than other space marines.

frikandel speciaal
06-12-2013, 14:05
[QUOTE=malisteen;7001346]Units with re-rollable 2++ saves, entire armies of shooting ignoring cover saves entirely, nigh-invincible heldrakes removing entire units at a time, cronwing, grav bikes, double force orgs, allied detachments, superheavies, D weapons, mega fortifications, subdetachment minicodeces, bonus formations entirely outside of the force org chart, what 'game balance' in 40k are we even talking about here? You might as well be running your Fantasy army, or Warmachine warband, or an assortment of D&D characters as your army for how tight the 40k rules aren't right now.

Wanna run your 30k army in 40k, complete with legion tactics and primarchs? Sure, whatever, why not. Just so long as you don't mind me running my army out of the 3.5 chaos marine codex, with the addition of any new units added since then.[/QUOT

What's wrong about using a Legion list?

Fear Ghoul
06-12-2013, 14:08
Night Lords have better eyes than other space marines.

The Night Lords from Nostramo had superior night vision. Nostramo is now long gone as are many of those who were recruited there. The claim that the Night Lords should exclusively have Night Vision whilst others don't, especially given the vast array of optical and sensory equipment located in a Marines helmet, is therefore tenuous at best.

IcedCrow
06-12-2013, 14:13
I'd have no problem with someone running a 30k list if they wanted to better represent a chaos legion.

frikandel speciaal
06-12-2013, 14:15
The Night Lords from Nostramo had superior night vision. Nostramo is now long gone as are many of those who were recruited there. The claim that the Night Lords should exclusively have Night Vision whilst others don't, especially given the vast array of optical and sensory equipment located in a Marines helmet, is therefore tenuous at best.

I think Night Lords can still use their jene-seed. If there is one army this special rule fits like a glove, it's Night Lords. Do i think they should have Night Vision exclusively? No.

Felwether
06-12-2013, 14:17
The Night Lords from Nostramo had superior night vision. Nostramo is now long gone as are many of those who were recruited there. The claim that the Night Lords should exclusively have Night Vision whilst others don't, especially given the vast array of optical and sensory equipment located in a Marines helmet, is therefore tenuous at best.

Exactly. Your average marine is supposedly able to see just as well in daylight as they do in darkness couple that with their auto senses and they should really get Night Vision.

I try not to get too choked up about it though! :cries:

Plague Lord
06-12-2013, 14:20
Actually even the terran born night lords before the heresy had great night vision since they were born in the dungeon cities of the underworld prisons and new only darkness they evolved. Something ala riddick (he's human right?)

Not talking about competitive, just house rules. And the reason I want to give it to csm instead of legion rules is becuase I want to keep the chaosy theme and don't want any overpowered weapons/units.

frikandel speciaal
06-12-2013, 14:23
Exactly. Your average marine is supposedly able to see just as well in daylight as they do in darkness couple that with their auto senses and they should really get Night Vision.

I try not to get too choked up about it though! :cries:

So Night Lords have no better eye sight?

Plague Lord
06-12-2013, 14:23
damned warseer.
You could say that helmetless night lords would have the blind special rule in daylight since the sun hurt their eyes and blinded them ;)

frikandel speciaal
06-12-2013, 14:27
Actually even the terran born night lords before the heresy had great night vision since they were born in the dungeon cities of the underworld prisons and new only darkness they evolved. Something ala riddick (he's human right?)

Not talking about competitive, just house rules. And the reason I want to give it to csm instead of legion rules is becuase I want to keep the chaosy theme and don't want any overpowered weapons/units.

Why do you think there are overpowered units in the 30K books? Heldrakes in the Chaos Marines codex are overpowered. In 30K you'll find some Primarchs who are very, very nasty. Just stay away from them and you should be fine.

Plague Lord
06-12-2013, 14:29
Why do you think there are overpowered units in the 30K books? Heldrakes in the Chaos Marines codex are overpowered. In 30K you'll find some Primarchs who are very, very nasty. Just stay away from them and you should be fine.

Aren't there marine units comprised of 10 plasma guns? Or 10 heavy weapons?

frikandel speciaal
06-12-2013, 14:34
damned warseer.
You could say that helmetless night lords would have the blind special rule in daylight since the sun hurt their eyes and blinded them ;)

Well, i think some kind of drawback would be pretty cool. During Night Fighting the Night Lords can see perfectly and enemy cover saves are reduced by one or 2.
The rest of the game any enemy unit ads +1 to their coversave if there's at least more than 24" between them and a Night Lords unit shooting them.

frikandel speciaal
06-12-2013, 14:38
Aren't there marine units comprised of 10 plasma guns? Or 10 heavy weapons?

Yes, there are. But marines will run away or get sweeped, because they lack ATSKNF. Heldrakes eat 10 special or heavy weapon dudes for breakfast.
Are units with tons of special or heavy weapons strong and effective? Definately. But i don't regard them overpowered.

totgeboren
06-12-2013, 14:53
Aren't there marine units comprised of 10 plasma guns? Or 10 heavy weapons?

Not having any meatshields in your special/heavy weapon units means every casualty hurt you, whilst not having any specials/heavies in your tactical squads really makes them hard to use.
Also, Chaos has access to Chosen, who can run around with 5 plasmas already.

frikandel speciaal
06-12-2013, 15:15
Not having any meatshields in your special/heavy weapon units means every casualty hurt you, whilst not having any specials/heavies in your tactical squads really makes them hard to use.
Also, Chaos has access to Chosen, who can run around with 5 plasmas already.

The first part is very, very true, so is the part regarding Chosen. However, i think tacticals are very good. You can give them an extra close combat weapon and double shots on a non-moving unit can be very effective.
I use a blob of 20 as a Praetor with paragorn blade retinue. They never let me down.

agurus1
06-12-2013, 19:52
Aren't there marine units comprised of 10 plasma guns? Or 10 heavy weapons?

9 Legionnaires w/ Plasmaguns, and a Sergeant with Combi-Plasma is 320 points. Not too bad, but then remember unlike SM from 40k they have no ATSKNF, so can be swept in CC, and can run (and keep running!!!).

Sure there are powerful units in the 30k but you are paying a lot for them, and they aren't as reliable as their 40k counterparts might be.

Scribe of Khorne
06-12-2013, 20:10
To the OP: Yes it would work, yes it could have been done, easily as Codex Space Marines shows, and no it wouldnt be overpowered.

You want to look at the Night Lord Legion traits and call that Overpowered as some in this thread have implied? Comical.

People will decry that it shouldnt happen, but those people just dont want Chaos factions to get the same attention as Space Marines.

EDIT: This is to say nothing of the Legion list, because thats a different thing, Traits however, very easily done.

Kijamon
06-12-2013, 20:16
Just run the 30k list in 40k. The drawbacks of the legion armies in general make it fairly balanced.

Running away is now a space mariney thing to do!

adreal
06-12-2013, 20:18
I think either using the legion list in 40k or just the traits in 40k would be fine. Use the standard 40k force org chart and leave lords of war out (unless escalation is brig used) it should be relatively balanced. For tournaments unfortunitly I doubt it will be allowed, but for friendlies I think it will be fine.

I plan on doing this with my group, I'm building a alpha legion army to use the forge world rules, they seem balanced and characterful, pretty much what I want for my alphas (like what codex marines can do with thier traits)

frikandel speciaal
06-12-2013, 20:36
I think either using the legion list in 40k or just the traits in 40k would be fine. Use the standard 40k force org chart and leave lords of war out (unless escalation is brig used) it should be relatively balanced. For tournaments unfortunitly I doubt it will be allowed, but for friendlies I think it will be fine.

I plan on doing this with my group, I'm building a alpha legion army to use the forge world rules, they seem balanced and characterful, pretty much what I want for my alphas (like what codex marines can do with thier traits)

It is amazing how characterful Space Marines of any kind become, by using the Legion list. Tons of flavour.
Example veterans: You can equip up to ten veterans with meltaboms for te cost of a 40K powerfist(which costs as much as a 40K powersword btw).
You can give them a special rule: Furious Charge, Sniper(!), Fearless, Outflank or Tankhunters(maybe it's one special rule less or more, i can't remember at the moment).
Besides that, they profit from their Legion rules. So Death Guard Veterans with 2 heavy flamers can be twin linked(and Get's Hot) at no additional costs. The Sergeant can get Rad grenades, which is pretty awesome. I just love 30K.

Formosa
07-12-2013, 20:57
I hate to use such definitive language but anyone who thinks 30k is OP is simply wrong

http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?384796-Horus-Heresy-Book-1-Betrayal-a-run-down

this explains why its not and what advantages and disadvantages, night lords legion traits would be fine but with the following exceptions
only unmarked units can have them
reason: Night lords hate chaos as much as they hate the imperium, they use chaos as a tool not as a thing they worship, if chaos undivided still existed then this would fit them.
No Deamons of any kind
Reason: other than possessed and the DP, night lords would not ally with deamons or take them in there army, oblits, deamon engines and the like are fine
Must take the standard that causes fear
Reason: pretty self explanatory there, while not point effective or particully good, it would be a "tax" of kinds to allow others a better reason to let you use the rules.
Raptors, like plasma for DA this is something the players have created, night lords in the fluff did not have any more of these that other legions, im talking specifically of assault marines, the night raptors is a legion specific unit that I doubt anyone would mind you using in your NL 40k army

hope this helped

Plague Lord
08-12-2013, 00:19
I hate to use such definitive language but anyone who thinks 30k is OP is simply wrong

http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?384796-Horus-Heresy-Book-1-Betrayal-a-run-down

this explains why its not and what advantages and disadvantages, night lords legion traits would be fine but with the following exceptions
only unmarked units can have them
reason: Night lords hate chaos as much as they hate the imperium, they use chaos as a tool not as a thing they worship, if chaos undivided still existed then this would fit them.
No Deamons of any kind
Reason: other than possessed and the DP, night lords would not ally with deamons or take them in there army, oblits, deamon engines and the like are fine
Must take the standard that causes fear
Reason: pretty self explanatory there, while not point effective or particully good, it would be a "tax" of kinds to allow others a better reason to let you use the rules.
Raptors, like plasma for DA this is something the players have created, night lords in the fluff did not have any more of these that other legions, im talking specifically of assault marines, the night raptors is a legion specific unit that I doubt anyone would mind you using in your NL 40k army

hope this helped


Thanks for the input however: Night Lords do not hate chaos. They see it as a tool and they don't want to be pawns like the word bearers. At least that's what most of them think. Many however fell to chaos. Be it madness, exposure to the warp or fear of death for example if a night lords unit were to catch a warp virus I think they'd be more than happy to give their souls to nurgle instead of just dying or being turned into spawn....

Another thing: The fear banner is only for nurgle marked units so only raptors would acutally benefit from the legion traits (big raptor blobs getting +1 to wound in assault yay! :D )

I play deathguard in 40k but in 30k I would play night lords (any info when some NL models will come out? I want proper, deatiled bat helmets!). Oh and I wonder why the imperial army gets no love in 30k :/ Wouldn't it be epic to field guard units with space marines sergeants? :D

squeekenator
08-12-2013, 00:20
People will decry that it shouldnt happen, but those people just dont want Chaos factions to get the same attention as Space Marines.

Uhh... no? People can have all kinds of different reasons for wanting or not wanting something, it's not just a case of "they hate my army and want to drag me down".

Formosa
08-12-2013, 00:20
Oh they will be eventually, but 30k is

Sent from my LT26i using Tapatalk

Baaltor
08-12-2013, 01:14
The Night Lords from Nostramo had superior night vision. Nostramo is now long gone as are many of those who were recruited there. The claim that the Night Lords should exclusively have Night Vision whilst others don't, especially given the vast array of optical and sensory equipment located in a Marines helmet, is therefore tenuous at best.

Yep. But that hasn't stopped GW from giving them it in the past, or giving it to Wolves, or even having marines/Eldar able to be blinded and gased, things they're isolated against. Apparently TDA is proof against the vaccuum of space, but pull out a terran oven, and you're taking toughness checks.

m1acca1551
08-12-2013, 01:31
Just use 30k list... I don't see the need to mix and match with codex's simply to create a hybrid book that has a cheesey smell to it. I think 30k is far more balanced than anything 40k has to offer.

If your wanting to use the chaos legions and make them more chaosy then use the allies matrix to add daemons...

30k is not OP especially when unless you are running primarchs

SonofMagnus
08-12-2013, 05:45
Units with re-rollable 2++ saves, entire armies of shooting ignoring cover saves entirely, nigh-invincible heldrakes removing entire units at a time, cronwing, grav bikes, double force orgs, allied detachments, superheavies, D weapons, mega fortifications, subdetachment minicodeces, bonus formations entirely outside of the force org chart, what 'game balance' in 40k are we even talking about here? You might as well be running your Fantasy army, or Warmachine warband, or an assortment of D&D characters as your army for how tight the 40k rules aren't right now.

Wanna run your 30k army in 40k, complete with legion tactics and primarchs? Sure, whatever, why not. Just so long as you don't mind me running my army out of the 3.5 chaos marine codex, with the addition of any new units added since then.

Ill gladly allow that the minute you show me that the 3.5 dex is up to date regarding 6th ed rules! which of course the legion list is! ;-)

totgeboren
08-12-2013, 09:45
I think it's better to use either the CSM codex or the legion lists. I have just been putting the finishing touches on my Maulerfiend and Forgefiend, and would love the FW traits for my WB. Sadly there is no real overlap between the 30k lists and the 40k one, with the exception that WB can take daemon allies in both, so either I get traits, or I get my daemon engines.

I'm still thinking of getting the few extra models I need (mostly just some special weapon guys), to allow me to play using the 30k list. It looks really fun (which the CSM list by comparison does not), so I understand why all the CSM players are asking questions about this (30k lists in 40k or just 30k traits in 40k armies and so on).

Marshal_Loss
08-12-2013, 09:47
30k list is lots of fun and well balanced, give it a try

Scribe of Khorne
08-12-2013, 18:20
Uhh... no? People can have all kinds of different reasons for wanting or not wanting something, it's not just a case of "they hate my army and want to drag me down".

Nah, not a sufficiently good reason that I have seen.

Grndhog89
08-12-2013, 19:55
Raptors, like plasma for DA this is something the players have created,


While that may have been true before the 6th edition codex.......GW caught on or wanted to ratify the DA=plasma correlation they did it with the new codex. Though it must be said they did it surreptitiously. However, if you look its obvious they said "DA are plasma freaks? Great idea!" Via our termies being able to take plasma cannons and the horrendously awful plasma storm battery on top of the LSV. Its there......you just have to squint.

Inquisitor Shego
08-12-2013, 21:25
While that may have been true before the 6th edition codex.......GW caught on or wanted to ratify the DA=plasma correlation they did it with the new codex. Though it must be said they did it surreptitiously. However, if you look its obvious they said "DA are plasma freaks? Great idea!" Via our termies being able to take plasma cannons and the horrendously awful plasma storm battery on top of the LSV. Its there......you just have to squint.

Beyond the Plasma weaponry though, what has the doctrine of the Dark Angels been? Hit hard and fast with elite stuff? Defensive like Imperial Fists? Or combined arms in set pieces like the Ultramarines. I've often wondered that

Grndhog89
08-12-2013, 21:36
Beyond the Plasma weaponry though, what has the doctrine of the Dark Angels been? Hit hard and fast with elite stuff? Defensive like Imperial Fists? Or combined arms in set pieces like the Ultramarines. I've often wondered that

Their doctrine? Honestly they follow the codex astartes with the exception of the refusal to give ground. That would explain the Dark Angels chapter overall modus operandi.

Now for Deathwing and Ravenwing its a little different. Given the two are supposed to be used in tandem at least in the fluff it comes down to a precision strike and hitting hard. Also without giving up ground just like their green buddies.

And I must say the new codex delivers on all of this. It really defines Dark Angels very well, translating their personality/description in the fluff into actual game mechanics. Now not all the mechanics are competitive or useful but that is a different discussion for a different day....

Asuryan's Spear
08-12-2013, 22:50
it's a real phenomenon. I have a really hard time convincing people i don't know well to let me play 30k list in 40k but that being said after the game they almost all make a point of saying how balanced the list is. the thing about the legion list is that there are some effective powerful choices but you often end up paying an appropriate amount of points for it. there isn't really anything yo can point to and say 'add 60-80pts to that and i'd still take it in a heartbeat' (cough Helldrake cough cough). i really like this aspect of the list as it has power but not in such a way that upsets people.

Currnetly running my SoH list but the minute NL helmets come out i'm buying a MK IV army's worth from forgeworld. NL really are a 'shut up and take my money' army for me. Can't wait to have Sevatar tearing through my 'friends' characters

Col. Dash
09-12-2013, 01:50
Also remember on that overpowered 320 point plasmagun tactical support squad, it doesnt count as compulsory so you still need a minimum of two 150 tactical squads or something else more expensive depending on the rite of war.