PDA

View Full Version : On Centurions...



Von Breitholz
06-12-2013, 07:35
I would like to try the centurions out a bit before I go and buy them. So I just wondered what loadouts folks use on respective type of centurions? Give me a hint on what you are shooting at or assaulting when that time comes with respective loadout. What base size to use for proxying the big boys?

I mostly play against Necrons, Eldar, DA RW, SM, CSM, IG and Tau. Not that many fliers(Only Necs and DA).

WarzonePlayer
06-12-2013, 07:45
Is it worth taking them?, with no invulnerable save they die so easily, AP2 weapons are so common nowadays that a small unit with no protection is just a target, only time I've seen them useful is static, sitting in cover, but then they are easier to avoid, and with their large bases, difficult to place in terrain to get any LoS advantage

Losing Command
06-12-2013, 08:11
Grav-cannon using Centurions are the best with any chaptertrait, load them up in a landraider or stormraven and blow up something expesive every shooting phase. Some people like using Missile Launchers alongside the grav-cans, but that makes them even more expensive in points and is just overkill if you ask me. Plus the hurricane bolters also make up for the weakness of grav-cans against poorly armoured troops. Best to shoot elite units and scary vehicles with.

Lascannon/Missile launcher Centurions are amazing at blowing up tanks when you have the Imperial Fist chaptertrait, otherwise they're a little too much points for what they do. A master of the forge with conversion beamer synergises nicely with them, but is not mandatory :p Shoot vehicles with these guys, ofen guarantee at least a wreacked unless you roll really poorly.

Heavy bolters are fun to mow down lots of lightly armoured infantery, but not really the most competative loadout. An omniscope is a must however for all devastator variants, just too usefull so totally worth the 10 points !

Have yet to hear anybody finding a use for melee centiurions. Ap 2 melee weapons sound good in theory, but on initiative 4 dudes without an Inv save they jus aren't really worth it. Assault terminators do more attacks and have a 3+ invulnerable and cost around they same points, and every SM player probably already has a squad of them leaving little reason to try assault centurions.

The base size is 2" in diameter, don't think that there are any other 40k models yet that have a similar base size. Maybe try terminators to proxy if your opponent is OK with that ?

metro_gnome
06-12-2013, 08:17
Well dev cents are the better cents...
Ass cents are pretty much equal to standard Terminators... and no one sings standard Terminator praises...

2 main load outs for Dev cents worth talking about... the "ZOMFG! Grav cannons"... or the Hellfire (TLLC/ML)...
Omniscope to taste for either... Grav cannons end up being cheaper because you end up keeping the Hurricane bolters...
pretty scary for damage output... but limited range kinda makes them end up as area denial units... like Multimeltas...
I'm a bigger fan of the Hellfire load out... which you just use like Hellfire Dreds... only you get 3 for the price of 2... in one slot...
Not that the hellfire Dred was ever really effective... but it does have synergistic range and strength... therefore similar targeting...
and except for small arms (which should be negated by range)... Cents are mostly more durable than the Dred against AP > 2...

Rolsheen
06-12-2013, 10:04
I run a six-man Dev Cent squad with Las-cannons and Hurricane Bolters on all. Expensive (500pts with Omniscope) probably overkill for most armies, a three-man squad will usually deal with any problem they face. I have run a squad of six Ass Cents with a Chaplain in a Spartan, Very expensive but surprisingly tougher to kill in combat than most people give them credit.

The Emperor
06-12-2013, 10:46
Assault terminators do more attacks

Are you talking about Assault Terminators with Thunder Hammers or Lightning Claws? Because if it's the former, then they have the same number of attacks (with the Centurion Assault Squad Sergeant having one more attack). Remember, they're armed with two Siege Drills. That's +1 Attack.

Dr Zoidberg
06-12-2013, 10:48
I've not had a chance to actually have a game with them yet, but I plan on running a three man squad with Lascannons and Missile Launchers. A bit more expensive than a Devastator Squad but with the ability to fire both weapons and with the IF Chapter Trait, I'm hoping they'll be able to set up somewhere and take out armour at long range. I'm also hoping the 2+ will see them survive a bit longer than Devs often do.

The Marshel
06-12-2013, 10:52
Is it worth taking them?, with no invulnerable save they die so easily, AP2 weapons are so common nowadays that a small unit with no protection is just a target, only time I've seen them useful is static, sitting in cover, but then they are easier to avoid, and with their large bases, difficult to place in terrain to get any LoS advantage

T5 and 2 wounds does a lot to alleviate these issues. short of s10 blast, you'll have a hard time killing the unit quickly and need to redirect a lot of fire-power normally reserved for AT to do so. SnP providing relentless makes having to duck in and out of cover not that big of a deal as well.

Str10_hurts
06-12-2013, 11:36
I have seen a lot of centurions in action recently. And I was surprised at how tough these guy's are, T5 makes all the difference and when you get them into decent cover they are hard to remove. And more so with all the other marine stuff that is at a closer more threatening range, it is hard to get enough heavy weapons on them.
Also the firepower coming out of imperial fist devestator centurions is just nuts!

Personal conclusion:
Ugliness = pretty high
Power level = pretty high

The Emperor
06-12-2013, 11:48
T5 and 2 wounds does a lot to alleviate these issues. short of s10 blast, you'll have a hard time killing the unit quickly and need to redirect a lot of fire-power normally reserved for AT to do so. SnP providing relentless makes having to duck in and out of cover not that big of a deal as well.

I dread the idea of a Wraithknight getting into hand-to-hand with them and dishing out multiple Str 10 hits, inflicting Instant Death on them. Fortunately, though, Grav Centurions have a good chance of dropping one before it ever gets near.

WarzonePlayer
06-12-2013, 12:26
I dunno, I see them dying allot by turn 2-3, without taking much down in return, they only seem to last when hunkered down in an aegis and given HB's, but then they sit being avoided

Charistoph
06-12-2013, 15:42
Are you talking about Assault Terminators with Thunder Hammers or Lightning Claws? Because if it's the former, then they have the same number of attacks (with the Centurion Assault Squad Sergeant having one more attack). Remember, they're armed with two Siege Drills. That's +1 Attack.

They also hit harder and faster than the Thunder Hammers.

But let's face it, the Hammernators are there as much for their survivability as their hitting power.

The Emperor
06-12-2013, 15:45
They also hit harder and faster than the Thunder Hammers.

But let's face it, the Hammernators are there as much for their survivability as their hitting power.

Depends on what you need. I can see a few situations where I'd prefer the Str 9 hit at Initiative 4 over the Str 8 hit at Initiative 1 with the 3+ Invulnerable Save. Not to mention that the Assault Centurions can also put out some crazy amount of firepower. Either Twin-Linked Meltaguns or Twin-Linked Flamers mixed in with Hurricane Bolters, as well as a Sergeant with an Omniscope giving him the ability to Split Fire and hit some other squad with his firepower before he and his unit charge in.

Damn shame Codex: Space Marines doesn't have a Power Field Generator, though. I'd love to be able to give a unit a 4+ Invulnerable Save without having to take Dark Angels allies or take Tigurius and hope he gets Forewarning.

Reasonable Commissar
06-12-2013, 15:54
I got with 3 with gravs and a LR for a transport. A Shield Eternium Chapter Master makes a good tank for them if you are doing a high points game.

The Emperor
06-12-2013, 15:58
Oh, you know what the shame of it is with Assault Centurions? That they're not armed with Grav-Guns. Not even Grav-Cannons, just Grav-Guns. They'd be able to fire three shots at 18" range all the time, as they're Relentless, while still being able to assault. And the best part? Grav-Guns are Concussive, so if they're charging into some tough Monstrous Creatures units then they could shoot them with their Grav-Guns, inflict a few wounds, and inflict the Concussive effect on them and forcing them to strike at Initiative 1 when they fight. That means that the Assault Centurions would always strike first against those targets in the first round of combat. So if your opponent has a Bloodthirster, Avatar, Wraithknight, etc? Shoot it with Grav-Guns and, as long as it's taken at least 1 Wound, you can charge in and strike first with your Str 9 hits. Sadly, though, no Grav-Guns for Assault Centurions. Only Meltaguns and Flamers. Ah well.

ErictheGreen
06-12-2013, 16:11
i've been using lc/ml centurions with IF chapter traits. the reliability with which they are destroying anything up to AV13 is outstanding, and has meant i can fit more plasma into my list at the expense of melta.

grav centurions are something i've been toying with. either with DA allies for the PFG libby, or with a regular libby rolling on telepathy. Using rhinos for cover saves etc. or lucking out and rolling invisibiltiy.

I've seen grav centurions blow units off the board. And while hurricane bolters help with the anti horde aspect, the IF chapter tactics make me lean towards taking the missiles. not least because while they're moving into the centre of the board to establish a no-go zone, they can be firing blast templates or TH kraks

The Emperor
06-12-2013, 16:34
Hmm, apparently we're getting a "Centurion Siegebreaker Cohort" Dataslate in five days, so it looks like there'll be an option for possible Centurion upgrades.

ErictheGreen
06-12-2013, 16:38
it'll be like the apoc formation, just not as good.

Camman1984
06-12-2013, 18:33
I really wish assault centurions had just one more attack each, thatd make the difference for me i think, then i think they would be able to kill fast enough to be worth it.

The Emperor
06-12-2013, 19:11
it'll be like the apoc formation, just not as good.

There's an Apocalypse Formation? Where? And what does it do?

Von Breitholz
06-12-2013, 19:21
Thanks for the input, I will do some testmatches with your proposals and then decide if I will use them or not.

Rypher
06-12-2013, 23:46
I've seen centurions run twice in tournaments. Both times, they were an ally to Tau. The one that I like more is a deathstar of 5 grav-cannon/hurricane centurions (omniscope srg), lvl 2 librarian with shield eternal, tau commander with all the upgrades, and shadowsun. Try ravenguard tactics. The librarian will benefit from the ravenguard tactics, allowing the entire unit to scout. Shield eternal for passing off Str 10 shots to him if need be, but the adamantium will allowing him to deny on at least a 4+ is why you take it. Shadowsun gives the entire unit stealth & shrouded, while also coming with 2 shield drones (3++). The commander brings his own two shield drones (4++), as well as C&C, MSSS, PENChip, Iridium, 4++, and Hit & Run for the unit. Disgustingly effective and quite a tournament list, but it does wipe out up to three units a turn (Cents one way, Sergeant another, and Shadowsun shoots one fusion somewhere else).

jackers
06-12-2013, 23:54
That is not how the Ravenguard Chapter Tactics work I'm afraid. The wording in the book says that 'units that include models with the bulky or very bulky rules do not benefit...' This means that no matter what other models or characters you put into the unit, the centurions can never gain scout or stealth.

The Emperor
06-12-2013, 23:58
That is not how the Ravenguard Chapter Tactics work I'm afraid. The wording in the book says that 'units that include models with the bulky or very bulky rules do not benefit...' This means that no matter what other models or characters you put into the unit, the centurions can never gain scout or stealth.

Sadly, that's true. But if you play White Scars and take Khan, then you can buy Centurions a Land Raider Dedicated Transport and THAT can Scout.

Rypher
07-12-2013, 17:44
Well, I'm going to argue against that based on the wording of chapter tactics. "Units that include models ... do not benefit" is referring to the chapter tactics itself, meaning they are not granted the Scout USR. However, the Librarian as a single model unit benefits from the chapter tactics, giving him scout. He then joins the squad which does not have scout. Per the scout USR, only one model in the unit is required to have the ability in order for the whole unit to use the USR. It's a cloudy area that has been debated before.
But as The Emperor said earlier, Kahn, Libby, Commander, and Centurions would work just fine.

jackers
07-12-2013, 19:25
If the wording had been 'do not benefit from this chapter tactic' then I would agree with you, but it does not say that unfortunately. It states (very clearly) that they 'do not benefit from either RULE' (emphasis mine). This means that bulky and very bulky models in a Ravenguard detachment simply can't gain scout or stealth.

Tamwulf
07-12-2013, 20:26
300+ points for a mediocre shooting unit. Give 'em Gravguns and it's not much better. Too short of range. Too many points on a unit that can't run, can't sweeping advance, and can't do much else except shoot and die.

They require too much support to make them worthwhile. Stormraven? Landraider? OK… now over 500 points (closer to 600) for 4 models. They still don't have better durability- only marginally better maneuverability. I say marginal as the Stormraven at best will come in on turn 2, and at worst turn 4. It'll have to engage hover mode to deliver the Cent's- unless you want to risk losing the whole unit? So now you have an easy to hit Stormraven and three models sitting out in the open. Interceptor will have a field day with this.

The Land Raider option? Eh, fire magnet. With the Cent's inside, they are not doing the one thing you need them to do- shoot. So again, the Cent's don't make it out on the table until turns 2-3. I've found the best way to nullify these guys- engage them in close combat.

I've used these guys in several games now, and I just can't shake the feeling that Terminators or a proper Devastator Squad is a better points investment. For that matter, a couple Predators or a Land Raider would be more welcome. If I was a brand new Space Marine player, then I might buy/use these guys. After I've already bought my Sternguard, Drop Pod, and Librarian, my troops, and a Stormtalon or Aegis Defense Line.

Assault Centurions? A cruel joke played by Games Workshop on all Space Marine players.

Centurions, both the dakka and assault kind, are a very niche unit and really only work a certain way, in certain circumstances, and will be out shined very easily by much better options in the Space Marine Codex (not to mention allies).

jackers
07-12-2013, 20:33
The thing I think that Cents have over all those options you listed (which may well be more effective) is the rule of cool. I know they aren't everybody's cup of tea, but to alot of people the visuals and ideas behind them are more then enough of a reason to stick them on the table. Personally I am finding it very hard to not put them into my list, even though I know a dev squad and a pred or whatever would be 'better'.

WarzonePlayer
07-12-2013, 21:09
I don't think the rule of cool applies, its pretty obvious from sales, forums, facebook pages and discussions with players, that more people hate those models than like them, and damn rightly so as well.

jackers
07-12-2013, 21:13
and you are entitled to that opinion, but the internet is never a great source for how popular something is, and I don't think you can accurately know just how many units GW shift every week. I know plenty of people (myself included) who really like cents; this doesn't mean they are the most popular unit ever made, but I see plenty of them every week at my club and local store :)

Karhedron
07-12-2013, 21:34
I have only faced them but I fear the tank-killing power of the TLLC/ML variants, especially with the IF chapter trait. With long range you can simply park them in some cover with good LOS and they are very solid. Most Marine armies seem to include at least one Techmarine manning a Thunderfire cannon so you can bolster the defenses of their building meaning they are T5 with 2 wounds and a 2+/3++ save against most shooting attacks. Yes they can still be killed by enough dedicated firepower but if you opponent is shooting everything he has at them then the rest of your army can punish him for it. If not they can reliably kill a tank a turn.

Von Breitholz
09-12-2013, 08:31
I donīt know if this is possible, but as I intend to run them in a drop pod list. 3-4 Dev. cents in a Stormraven. The Skies of fury says that if the SR have moved more than 6" the unit inside it deploys as if deepstrikeing and I will have 2-5 (depending on if I have 3 or 5 DPs in the list) DPs on the table the turn that the SR arrives. If I put Locator beacons on the DPs the Cents. would not scatter if I DS them within 6" of the DPs. Yes I know it is a kind of expensive distribution way (the Dev. cents are expensive too) but if it is possible (ruleswise) it would put the unit right where you want it or at least verry close to where you want it.

Charistoph
09-12-2013, 15:24
I donīt know if this is possible, but as I intend to run them in a drop pod list. 3-4 Dev. cents in a Stormraven. The Skies of fury says that if the SR have moved more than 6" the unit inside it deploys as if deepstrikeing and I will have 2-5 (depending on if I have 3 or 5 DPs in the list) DPs on the table the turn that the SR arrives. If I put Locator beacons on the DPs the Cents. would not scatter if I DS them within 6" of the DPs. Yes I know it is a kind of expensive distribution way (the Dev. cents are expensive too) but if it is possible (ruleswise) it would put the unit right where you want it or at least verry close to where you want it.

And unless you have the Formation dataslate, you could only field one Dev Centurion squad that way. Not to mention, Dev Cents have too much firepower to have off the field for several turns. It's more viable for Assault Centurions, though. Especially as the Raven has Assault Ramps...

Charistoph
09-12-2013, 15:25
I donīt know if this is possible, but as I intend to run them in a drop pod list. 3-4 Dev. cents in a Stormraven. The Skies of fury says that if the SR have moved more than 6" the unit inside it deploys as if deepstrikeing and I will have 2-5 (depending on if I have 3 or 5 DPs in the list) DPs on the table the turn that the SR arrives. If I put Locator beacons on the DPs the Cents. would not scatter if I DS them within 6" of the DPs. Yes I know it is a kind of expensive distribution way (the Dev. cents are expensive too) but if it is possible (ruleswise) it would put the unit right where you want it or at least verry close to where you want it.

And unless you have the Formation dataslate, you could only field one Dev Centurion squad that way. Not to mention, Dev Cents have too much firepower to have off the field for several turns. It's more viable for Assault Centurions, though. Especially as the Raven has Assault Ramps...

The Emperor
09-12-2013, 15:29
Well, the counterargument to that is that putting the firepower where it's needed is more effective than having them on the board every turn taking potshots at unimportant enemy units or dealing with cover saves. Sure, you'll lose a turn or two of shooting, but being able to put them right in line of sight of the target you most need to eliminate, potentially denying them cover in the process, is pretty worthwhile.

noobzilla
09-12-2013, 17:49
I know it seems pretty over-costed, but I have run them with Tigurius and using 3 divination slots, I can pretty reliably roll up "Perfect Timing + Forewarning + Prescience" gives the unit a 4++, re-roll to hit and ignores cover. It flattens whatever it can shoot at. The problem is keeping them alive cause every gun in the opposing army is going to shoot that unit.

jackers
09-12-2013, 17:58
I know it seems pretty over-costed, but I have run them with Tigurius and using 3 divination slots, I can pretty reliably roll up "Perfect Timing + Forewarning + Prescience" gives the unit a 4++, re-roll to hit and ignores cover. It flattens whatever it can shoot at. The problem is keeping them alive cause every gun in the opposing army is going to shoot that unit.

That isn't always a bad thing though. Sure, it sucks that your cents will eat all that firepower, but on the plus side, concentrating on your cents means that the rest of your army stays in one piece.

noobzilla
09-12-2013, 19:32
That isn't always a bad thing though. Sure, it sucks that your cents will eat all that firepower, but on the plus side, concentrating on your cents means that the rest of your army stays in one piece.

This is true, but man those guys will also eat an MC if they so choose. The reason I chose Tigur and not just some level 2 librarian is because of the divination rolls, but not only that, but the re-roll. I realistically have 6 chances to roll a 2 and a 4 and the other I don't care because prescience is the base power.

It is a nasty combo, plus Tigurius' warlod trait is pretty awesome!

jackers
09-12-2013, 19:48
When you add Tiggy they become awesome. I was thinking of using an allied DA Librarian for the guaranteed 4++ and prescience. I can't decide which I prefer, as the DA Libby guarantees the invuln, but gets 1-2 less rolls than Tiggy. They come out at about the same cost once you add in the obligatory 5 scouts with camo cloaks and snipers for the DA detachment.

noobzilla
09-12-2013, 20:12
Tigurius' staff and ability to reroll his psychic check is worth the points by far!

jackers
09-12-2013, 20:24
That is true, he is definitely worth his points. The thing that makes me lean towards the DA Libby at the moment is the fact that the Power Field Generator will give them the invuln even if you don't go first, which well really help them if your opponent tries to alpha strike them.

noobzilla
10-12-2013, 03:36
That is also really expensive, I tend to just hide out of LOS even if I get first turn and get seized on

jackers
10-12-2013, 08:45
A DA Libby with PFG and prescience and 5 scouts with snipers and cloaks costs exactly the same as tiggy.

noobzilla
10-12-2013, 14:37
A DA Level 2 plus a PFG is 130, and 5 scouts + snipers and camo cloaks is 70, so thats 200, Tigurius is a cheap 165 or so.

jackers
10-12-2013, 14:40
I wasn't adding the lvl 2 onto the DA libby, since it is prescience and the 4++ I really want. IMO, the lvl 2 isn't worth it for the 1/6 chance to get the ignores cover power.

Charistoph
10-12-2013, 15:38
I wasn't adding the lvl 2 onto the DA libby, since it is prescience and the 4++ I really want. IMO, the lvl 2 isn't worth it for the 1/6 chance to get the ignores cover power.

It also helps Deny the Witch, too. Mastery Level isn't always about the number of powers you put on the field.

jackers
10-12-2013, 15:41
True, but my main psyker opponents are Eldar and Daemons, who always use lvl 3 or 4 psykers, so it's not so great for DtW in my case :(

Charistoph
10-12-2013, 15:49
True, a lot depends on what you're facing at the time (as in most things). But it's useful to remember when the option DOES work.

ErictheGreen
11-12-2013, 08:49
There's an Apocalypse Formation? Where? And what does it do?
minimum 3 units of centurions. nominate 1 sargeant. each turn he picks a target, any centurions in the formation firing on that target gain tank hunters, monster hunter or ignores cover for that turn.


300+ points for a mediocre shooting unit. Give 'em Gravguns and it's not much better. Too short of range. Too many points on a unit that can't run, can't sweeping advance, and can't do much else except shoot and die.

They require too much support to make them worthwhile. Stormraven? Landraider? OK… now over 500 points (closer to 600) for 4 models. They still don't have better durability- only marginally better maneuverability. I say marginal as the Stormraven at best will come in on turn 2, and at worst turn 4. It'll have to engage hover mode to deliver the Cent's- unless you want to risk losing the whole unit? So now you have an easy to hit Stormraven and three models sitting out in the open. Interceptor will have a field day with this.


While i agree with you on the assault version, the tank hunting dev versions are a key part of my list. While regular devestators might be more effective point for point, having the centurions there means i can get 2 thunderfire cannons, which are incredibly effective for the criminally cheap points investment.

OuroborosTriumphant
11-12-2013, 12:38
I wasn't adding the lvl 2 onto the DA libby, since it is prescience and the 4++ I really want. IMO, the lvl 2 isn't worth it for the 1/6 chance to get the ignores cover power.

I more or less agree with your conclusion, but with ML 2 you actually have a slightly worse than 1-in-3 (11/36 if you want to be technical) chance of getting Ignores Cover.

The Emperor
11-12-2013, 15:12
minimum 3 units of centurions. nominate 1 sargeant. each turn he picks a target, any centurions in the formation firing on that target gain tank hunters, monster hunter or ignores cover for that turn.

Wow, that's pretty awesome! :) So does anyone know what the rules out for the Siegebreaker Cohort Formation which was just released?

jackers
11-12-2013, 15:18
From the pics up it appears to be for Centurion Assault squads (2+ Assault Squads and 1+ Ironclad Dreads).

The Emperor
11-12-2013, 15:28
I just found out. It's an Apocalypse Dataslate, and they're supposed to be exceptionally good at knocking down buildings. How very exciting... :\

El_Machinae
11-12-2013, 15:30
I've only ever armchair-quarterbacked the Assault Cents, but I find I just can't figure out what to do with them. Their lack of overwatch changes everything. Any unit you flame, you likely don't the number of attacks to beat when you assault them. And any units you want to melti- should really die with those meltas, and thus you won't need to assault. But, if you melta a high-number squad, your meltas will have piddly effect pre-assault, and there's no point using flamers on tanks.
???

The Emperor
11-12-2013, 15:35
Uses Flamers and Hurricane Bolters on a high number squad. That should thin them out. Although when it comes to Assault Centurions, my idea is to throw them up against low Initiative Monstrous Creatures. High Initiative, too, if you can get a Concussive attack on the thing first, either through a Grav weapon or a missile from the Stormraven Gunship (This is why I wish Assault Centurions had access to Grav Guns. They already have access to Meltaguns and Flamers. Why not another Special Weapon?). Then they could fire three Twin-Linked Grav Gun shots and inflict Concussive hits on anything they want to charge, guaranteeing that they'll go first on the charge. *sigh* Talk about a missed opportunity.

Von Breitholz
12-12-2013, 11:11
So as far as I can see there are no problems useing locator beacons on the drop pods to put down the dev centurions exaktly where I want. When flying by with the Stormraven, right?

El_Machinae
12-12-2013, 11:40
How many hurricane bolters would people put into an assault squad?

Charistoph
12-12-2013, 15:02
That's a tough call since they replace the Ironclad Launchers, don't they?