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Commisar
07-12-2013, 03:13
Wanted to share my thoughts about the new fortifications.

Agis lines: Largely unchainged, can be extended with Razor wire/rubble etc at a cost to cover a larger area. - I think these will remain popular as they are one of four fortifications that can take the Quad Cannon or Icarus Las.

Bastions: Unchanged, but can now buy a verity of expensive upgrades. Void Sheild works as you would expect and is quite good, but rather expensive.

Landing Pads: For a cost you can start a flyer on this now. May be tempting for some, but seems like asking for your flyer to be vunerable for a turn if you ask me.

Honoured Imperium: Cheap. Gives out Stubborn/Fearless in a bubble. But only for imperials.

The Above can be baught in a bundle in a single slot, with one Bastion and one Agis minimum. Good if you baught lots of planetstrike terrain, and dont have much to do with it now.

Wall of Marters Trenches: More expesnive, more restrictive version of Agis line that grants stubborn but cant buy an AA gun. - Not sure why you would bother. Any ideas?
Wall of Marters Emplacement as above, but you can also re-roll misses with a hevay weapon during over watch...
Wall of Marters Bunker: Cheaper bastion that looses the Hevey Bolters, but four guys can fire out of the fire point. Can mount an emplaced gun on it's roof. I think this is pritty good, and should give Bastions a run for there money.
The Wall of Marters Lascannonatron: Unchanged from rules in box except it can now mount an additional quad gun or single lascannon on its roof along with its other weapons. But the additional gun is the subject to the same targeting rules.

The Above (and honoured imperium) can be baught in a bundle.

Promethum Fuel lines, as rumoured let flamers torrent. RAW it dosent work on hevey flamers though. Same cover save as an Agis line, but you can get blown up. Cant take an emplased weapon. Probably a miss.

Void Sheild generator: As rumoured. If you dont need AA from your fortification slot, this might be a better alternative to defence lines for protecting your dudes.

You can take the above, and Honoured Imperium in a Bundle.

Finally. The Fortress. Macro Cannon or Vortex Missle.

As Per Apoc. Only now you can buy it Void Sheilds too, if you like.

BUt it isnt in any bundles.

MajorWesJanson
07-12-2013, 05:15
You missed the fact that the Firestorm Redoubt and Vengeance weapons batteries can all choose Quad-las, Battlecannon, or Punisher cannon freely.

Also, when buying gun emplacements (quad gun or icarus las) you get a choice of putting it on top of the bunker where it becomes an emplaced weapon that can be fired automated or from inside like other emplaced weapons, or as a freestanding weapon emplacement that can be placed up to 6" away (this gives a deployment rule for the guns with the aegis lines as well- doesn't need to touch, but can't be across the table either.

Battlement rules are much clarified and simplified (treat as being upstairs in ruins with some caveats), and damage chart specifies what happens to models in battlements for a total collapse and detonation (no more hit, then have to jump off and take more wounds, then get blown up for a third set of wounds) And the rules for what happens to a building when it collapses or detonates is made clear.

Landing pad lets you start with a flier on it, but the flier has to hover turn one. Vulnerable, but remember that pad can give a 4++ save to models on it.

Fuel lines do have some nasty uses- was discussing it with an ork player who wants to sit a mob or two of burna boys next to it.

Honored Imperium specifies Imperial armies for the Imperial statuary, but honestly, I can see an easy house rule being that if it is modeled appropriately, it can affect other armies instead- Ork Totem for orks, Hive node for Nids, Waystone for Eldar, Chaos shrine for CSM and daemons.

agurus1
07-12-2013, 06:11
how many people can fit inside a firestorm redoubt?

I'm really excited. I pre-ordered my copy and should be picking it up from my local store tomorrow

Saunders
07-12-2013, 06:11
Color me pleased, I didn't expect them to make an attempt at addressing fortifications versus D-strength, but it looks like they did by introducing the void shields purchase option.

agurus1
07-12-2013, 07:09
yeah void shields are awesome idea for fortifications in apoc, do they function like those on titans?

Rolsheen
07-12-2013, 07:12
Your forgetting the 3+ cover save (!!!!:wtf:) for the statue from the honoured imperium

agurus1
07-12-2013, 07:17
Your forgetting the 3+ cover save (!!!!:wtf:) for the statue from the honoured imperium

what? like if you are standing behind it?

Killgore
07-12-2013, 09:38
It is a pretty big statue to sit behind, could get a sweet save for a dreadnought or monster

MarkNorfolk
07-12-2013, 10:38
Promethum Fuel lines, as rumoured let flamers torrent. RAW it dosent work on hevey flamers though. Same cover save as an Agis line, but you can get blown up. Cant take an emplased weapon. Probably a miss.

No it doesn't work on "hevey" flamers. Fortunately it does work with heavy flamers and any other flamer weapon on p56 of the main rulebook. The chance of it blowing up is a risk but I can see it appealing to Guard/Sisters/Grey Knights with flamer based squads particularly against massed armies like orks and 'nids can be. It does give access to obstacles too.

As for the WoM Defence Line - I think the extra points (above the Aegis) is paying for the Stubborn and the fact it's double-sided - you're protected from units deep-striking behind you.

Cheers
Mark

Commisar
07-12-2013, 11:09
Yeah, I realised after I posted it that Heavy flamers arn't Heavy. The chance of explosion is pritty slim too.

I can see were they were coming from with the WoM. But it is so much less flexable then an Aegis (in terms of it's footprint on the table) that really makes it seem unattractive to me.

ihavetoomuchminis
07-12-2013, 11:49
Burnaboyz in Prometheumfuel lines?

Kerrahn
07-12-2013, 15:47
Burnaboyz in Prometheumfuel lines?

I was working out a way to make some fuel lines for my Sisters of Battle (expensive but simple way is to just use the piping from the Manufactorum kit), but completely forgot about it for my Orks... Can't believe I didn't think of that myself.

As for other Fortifications, thinking I need to buy a Firestorm Redoubt now just for the option to run Quad Icarus on my Vengeance Weapon Batteries if I don't feel like paying the extra 50pts to buy the Firestorm Redoubt itself. And some of the Battlefield Accessories and some Razor Wire just for the options they bring to existing Fortifications.

But man, after building an Ork Aegis Defense Line out of Ork Barricades and a FW Flakk Gun, I'm really looking forward to building some Promethium Fuel Lines, Void Shields, and the rest.

Bubble Ghost
07-12-2013, 16:10
What exactly do void shields do?

Kijamon
07-12-2013, 16:38
What exactly do void shields do?

Absorb damage when you shoot at a unit in the bubble and can be regained. Will annoy a lot of players if you are shooting at something and you can't actually knock out the AV12 (I think it's 12) shield.

Ssilmath
07-12-2013, 16:44
... and you can't actually knock out the AV12 (I think it's 12) shield.

According to internet wisdom, AV12 lasts approximately negative two turns in a any given game and thus should not be an issue.

Kijamon
07-12-2013, 16:47
According to internet wisdom, AV12 lasts approximately negative two turns in a any given game and thus should not be an issue.

For not a lot of points you can get 3 void shields with the nice 12" bubble it offers. That's a lot of units having to waste shooting to knock them out before you can shoot at the grunts using it for cover.

Makes for a great tank protector because you're either wasting your mid S weapons on the void shields to knock them down or you're shooting high S guns to knock the void shields down and then don't have much to hurt the tanks.

brionl
07-12-2013, 17:26
Absorb damage when you shoot at a unit in the bubble and can be regained. Will annoy a lot of players if you are shooting at something and you can't actually knock out the AV12 (I think it's 12) shield.

I just checked, it's 12.

I think I might pick up the ebook on this one. Sounds interesting.

Emissary
07-12-2013, 18:38
Another thing about the firstorm redoubt is that for an increase of 15% in points you can upgrade the automated fire to bs 3. 4 twin linked bs 3 lascannons is nasty against flying stuff. You can also buy it a cheapo searchlight which is a welcome addition to xenos armies that dont bring allies.

Vengeance weapons batteries with quad icarus lascannons look like a decent anti flyer deal too

Also for the skyshield ready for takeoff upgrade only fliers that can hover can start on them. If they start of them they start the game hovering and cannot zoom on the first turn. The ready for takeoff upgrade is extremely cheap.

Killgore
07-12-2013, 19:18
I like the idea of two Battlecannons on the Firestorm, will be a great area denial asset.

Bubble Ghost
07-12-2013, 19:35
Absorb damage when you shoot at a unit in the bubble and can be regained. Will annoy a lot of players if you are shooting at something and you can't actually knock out the AV12 (I think it's 12) shield.

Cool, thanks.

agurus1
08-12-2013, 22:14
The Void Relay Network seems like a pretty good deal, especially because you can even buy real cover with the Obstacles (Tank Traps and Barricades seem like good buys, on top of the several void shields you could take. 9 void shields that could be regained on a 5+ before you even start hitting anything valuable? Yes please! lol

sonsoftherock
09-12-2013, 01:17
Just my quick thoughts on this, a really good addition to the game.

Slight buyers remorse from the price but that is about adjusting to the new era. A good set of rules that lets me play the fortifications I have bought, with no bits missing.

Not sure if models inside still take hits from glancing and penetrating hits (though I assume the rules from the basic book have been added to and not superseded, but will wait to see what the collective opinion is), would have liked to have seen the rule about throwing frag grenades changed as it makes building deathtraps when troops get close and in a world of deepstrikers and drop pods they are probably going to get close quickly.

Maybe keep this rule for normal buildings and have a separate class of building (fortification) which takes 1 hit per grenade and d3 per flamer (just off the top of my head). Would also like to see some interaction between techmarines and buildings, for example boost normal buildings to the suggested fortification above.

Points costs seem reasonable and the fortification networks seem well thought out to play the different sets.

The missions are a nice change of pace and look not bad, different FOC's so need to be arranged in advance, my quick look so far indicates that one limits outflank but deepstriking is ok. For me personally I might have limited it in one of the scenarios at least and maybe adding a building upgrade like the deepstrike jammer on the LS storm might have been nice.

For me this book has given me what I wanted, points costs and rules to allow me to play all the neat terrain I bought. The fact that it all looks good and there are no unbalancing elements e.g. stratagems is a positive bonus.

Job well done.

Dwane Diblie
09-12-2013, 02:54
With the Skyshield, can the hovering flyer start on it no matter where it is deployed or does it have to be in your normal deployment zone? I have terrible visions of units assaulting first turn out of Stormravens.

agurus1
09-12-2013, 06:14
What do people think is the most efficient Fortification? I'm planning on using them in my games before I get the Wall Of Martyrs Imperial Defense Emplacement so that I can make the Defense Network. So far I have:
1 Bastion
1 Aegis Defense Line
1 Wall Of Martyrs Defense Line
1 Imperial Bunker
1 Firestorm Redoubt
a copious amount of tank traps, razorwire, ammo dumps and emplaced weapons.

I usually play 1750 points games using the 30k Legion List. I play an artillery centric list, normally I have this but I'd like to fit some wall of martyrs in there:

HQ:
Legion Centurion

Elites:
2 Apothecaries

2 Legion Rapier Laser Destroyers

Troops:
2x 20 Tactical Legionnaires (Bolters, Bolt Pistols, extra CCW, legion vexilia, and nucio-vox)

Heavy Support:
2 x Basilisks

2x Vindicators w/ Machine Spirit

Fortifications:
Aegis Defense Line w/ Icarus Lascannon


What I'm looking for:

Something to protect my basic Tactical Marines for a turn or two, as well as my Basilisks. AA is a plus.

MajorWesJanson
09-12-2013, 06:17
With the Skyshield, can the hovering flyer start on it no matter where it is deployed or does it have to be in your normal deployment zone? I have terrible visions of units assaulting first turn out of Stormravens.

It doesn't say specifically. "When deploying your army, you can deploy one of your fliers with the hover type on top of each of your skyshield landing pads that has this upgrade, even though fliers normally have to start the game in reserves."
Probably needs a FAQ, but while it gives permission to deploy instead of having to remain in reserve, it doesn't specifically allow you to deploy outside your deployment zone- "Any Friendly unit can deploy within one of their army's fortificaios, as long as it is a building and wholly within their deployment zone. If a fortification is deployed within 12" of the central line, only friendly units that have the Infiltrate or Scout special rule can (re)deploy within the building, regardless of the proximity of enemy units." BRB 121.
Also, hey pretty solid evidence that Scouts can "redeploy" outside your deployment zone, for that rules argument.


What do people think is the most efficient Fortification? I'm planning on using them in my games before I get the Wall Of Martyrs Imperial Defense Emplacement so that I can make the Defense Network.

Something to protect my basic Tactical Marines for a turn or two, as well as my Basilisks. AA is a plus.

Well, the Wall of Martyrs bunker can buy a quad gun or icarus las like the Aegis line can, so there is that. The defense line has the same defense as the Aegis line, plus gives the guys in it stubborn, a plus for heresy era marines. The defense emplacements give heavy weapons a reroll on overwatch, so probably a good place to sit the Rapiers.

MasterDecoy
09-12-2013, 06:21
It doesn't say specifically. "When deploying your army, you can deploy one of your fliers with the hover type on top of each of your skyshield landing pads that has this upgrade, even though fliers normally have to start the game in reserves."
Probably needs a FAQ, but while it gives permission to deploy instead of having to remain in reserve, it doesn't specifically allow you to deploy outside your deployment zone- "Any Friendly unit can deploy within one of their army's fortificaios, as long as it is a building and wholly within their deployment zone. If a fortification is deployed within 12" of the central line, only friendly units that have the Infiltrate or Scout special rule can (re)deploy within the building, regardless of the proximity of enemy units." BRB 121.
Also, hey pretty solid evidence that Scouts can "redeploy" outside your deployment zone, for that rules argument.

I thought Fortifications had to be in your half of the table

MajorWesJanson
09-12-2013, 06:27
I thought Fortifications had to be in your half of the table

They do. The question was could you set up a skyshield in your half, say just on the midline, start a flier like the stromraven on it, and use that to get a first turn assault

MasterDecoy
09-12-2013, 06:28
Ah that makes sense

Sent from my GT-I9100 using Tapatalk

Ghazbad_Facestompa
09-12-2013, 07:03
The void shields look to be a welcome addition. I saw quite a few Heldrakes around when I was last home, so an effective defensive option seems interesting.

AngryAngel
09-12-2013, 07:08
Perhaps I'm not reading it properly but how exactly are the voice shields worked ? Does each unit in the bubble have an AV 12 barrier ? Or is it but one AV 12 if you shoot at anything inside the bubbles and once popped it is gone till pulled back up once more ?

Spiney Norman
09-12-2013, 07:13
Landing pad lets you start with a flier on it, but the flier has to hover turn one. Vulnerable, but remember that pad can give a 4++ save to models on it.


So I'm guessing that means that only flyers that can use hover mode can start on the platform, as in not scythes or razorwings etc.

Rowenstin
09-12-2013, 08:23
Perhaps I'm not reading it properly but how exactly are the voice shields worked ? Does each unit in the bubble have an AV 12 barrier ? Or is it but one AV 12 if you shoot at anything inside the bubbles and once popped it is gone till pulled back up once more ?

It's the later, I think. Once is (temporarily) gone for 1 unit is gone for all.

agurus1
10-12-2013, 09:02
yeah void shields seem to be a good option, especially if you are expecting to encounter SD weaponry. Having them waste a ton of anti-tank and potentially SD weapons to knock out shield after shield is a good deal I think. Not to mention that you can get the shields back! lol

MajorWesJanson
10-12-2013, 13:20
Perhaps I'm not reading it properly but how exactly are the voice shields worked ? Does each unit in the bubble have an AV 12 barrier ? Or is it but one AV 12 if you shoot at anything inside the bubbles and once popped it is gone till pulled back up once more ?

The second one. And if you are inside the bubble when you shoot, you hit normally.

madden
10-12-2013, 15:05
Another on voids are they like the old Titan ones where if your in side they don't work? As this could impact ds'ing flamers etc.

Royals
10-12-2013, 15:21
I really wish I had enough room in my nerd room for game table so I could load it up with terrain! I could fit a 4'x4' table up there but that's a bit too small.

I have to say, I really like the Stronghold Assault supplement. It really adds something interactive to the game.