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Captain Stern
10-12-2013, 10:51
Film reviewer Tevor Lynch on Prometheus:

"As the credits rolled, I took off my 3-D glasses and rubbed by eyes in disbelief, trying to fathom the vulgarity of spirit behind this godawful movie. It is the same vulgarity of spirit that took the mysteries of Stanley Kubrick’s 2001: A Space Odyssey (1968) and gave us Peter Hyam’s sequel 2010 (1984), where the monoliths work to prevent nuclear war. It is the same vulgarity of spirit that took “the Force” of the original Star Wars trilogy and explained it in terms of little measurable material widgets called “midichlorians” in The Phantom Menace (1999). It is the same vulgarity of spirit that took the mysteries of Alfred Hitchcock’s The Birds (1963) and gave us Rick Rosenthal’s made-for-TV sequel The Birds II: Land’s End (1994), in which we are informed that the bird attacks are due to pollution.

Heidegger tells us that this vulgarization is the essence of modernity, which seeks to abolish all mystery and transcendence, replacing them with the transparent and available, which in cultural terms boils down to the vulgar and the trite."

Pretty much sums up what GW have done to the Horus Heresy in my opinion.

Fangschrecken
10-12-2013, 10:55
Some men just like to pull the cloth from the cage. Never mind what's inside.

MajorWesJanson
10-12-2013, 11:35
I don't agree. While you may value the "mystery" elements of the Heresy era, I see it as a setting just like 40K, one in which to tell stories. Those stories are good or bad or mediocre, but the goal is not specifically to reveal all the mysteries, but to tell an interesting and entertaining story.

On a separate note, "Vulgarity of Spirit" is too good a name for a Space Hulk for me not to use somewhere.

Menthak
10-12-2013, 12:05
On a separate note, "Vulgarity of Spirit" is too good a name for a Space Hulk for me not to use somewhere.

Love it.

The way I see it, is that those who enjoy the mystery simply not read the books. Those who want to know, read the books.

Poseidal
10-12-2013, 12:23
Thing is you need these mysteries for a setting to work, IMO it's even more important than in a story as you MUST have enough for players to fill in gaps or adventure in their minds.

I think it's especially bad how they made things a bit too literal, and made the past *more* gothic and ornate when by all means it should be less so (the Gothic and Ornate would be from the developments the Imperium went through in the aftermath of the Heresy to now), and how they don't bother to look at how the Eldar history would have changed from the just-post-fall refugees to the Avatar and Wraithguys stomping around being somewhat more recent (and making it literally Eldrad being around then, because they took the words of that tortured ranger a bit too literally).

In fact, taking things too literally is literally the problem with recent GW background IMO.

MajorWesJanson
10-12-2013, 12:27
On the other hand, we replace some of the mystery with dramatic irony of seeing how the 40K era has lost or misconstrued the events of 30K.

Theocracity
10-12-2013, 12:41
On the other hand, we replace some of the mystery with dramatic irony of seeing how the 40K era has lost or misconstrued the events of 30K.

Indeed. I think a lot of the 'lost mystery' concerns are due to people forgetting that the people of 40K know almost nothing of 30K. Even those who were around for both eras probably don't spend a lot of time thinking about something that happened so long ago.

Baneboss
10-12-2013, 12:44
Pretty much sums up what GW have done to the Horus Heresy in my opinion.

I disagree. Horus Heresy is the best thing that happened to the hobby lately. Both books and FW stuff. Yes, its not perfect but it doesnt have to be.

AndrewGPaul
10-12-2013, 12:54
I don't agree. While you may value the "mystery" elements of the Heresy era, I see it as a setting just like 40K, one in which to tell stories. Those stories are good or bad or mediocre, but the goal is not specifically to reveal all the mysteries, but to tell an interesting and entertaining story.

On a separate note, "Vulgarity of Spirit" is too good a name for a Space Hulk for me not to use somewhere.

From my point of view, the problem is that most of the stories have been mediocre at best. :) The earliest novels were about depicting characters - we got a really good look at Loken and Tarvitz, for example, and through them their Primarchs and the arly Imperium. After that, it started taling off, for me, into unengaging plots and a sense that it was being done by the numbers; "right, we've done three books about the Sons of Horus, so now we need to do one about the Death Guard, and then one about the Emperor's Children. Better get one about the Ultramarines in the pipeline somewhere, get that box ticked".


I think it's especially bad how they made things a bit too literal, and made the past *more* gothic and ornate when by all means it should be less so (the Gothic and Ornate would be from the developments the Imperium went through in the aftermath of the Heresy to now), and how they don't bother to look at how the Eldar history would have changed from the just-post-fall refugees to the Avatar and Wraithguys stomping around being somewhat more recent (and making it literally Eldrad being around then, because they took the words of that tortured ranger a bit too literally).

That's my main problem with the tone. I much prefer the background material and artwork in the 1st edition Adeptus Titanicus and Space Marine. Instead of "cogitators", "Astartes", "Servitors" and the like, you had "computers", "Space Marines", "Cyborgs", etc. Partly that was a reflection of the tone of 4ok as a whole in the late 80s/early 90s, but now it works well as a contrast to the tone of modern 40k (in both senses).

As an example of that, there's this piece from the Space Marine rulebook, which was the only piece featuring a pre-Heresy Horus until Horus Rising:


The adjutant came smartly to attention before the vast wooden desk.
"The local representatives are outside, my lord Warmaster" The
Warmaster nodded once, without looking up from the stack of reports.
"Thank you, Bejaind. Make them comfortable and tell them I shall join
them directly." Bejaind cleared his throat nervously.
"Permission to speak freely... my lord?" This time, the Warmaster
looked up. The adjutant tried to hold his ice-blue gaze, and failed.
"I know, Bejaind." said the Warmaster "You're not happy about this
warrior lodge initiation."
"So soon after your illness, my lord..."
"From which I am fully recovered. I had the Apothacaria of five Space
Marine chapters fighting for the honor of healing me. I've been back to
full duties for a week now, with no ill-effects. Your concern is touching,
but unnecessary." Bejaind shuffled uncomfortably.
"But, my lord, we don't know what's involved..."
"I have a reasonable idea. A little pain, to be endured without crying
out; duels with a range of primitive weapons; trials of strength and
speed; a few primitive rituals -little different from mystic warrior
lodges in any other feral-world culture. You know Imperial policy;
establish ties which can be exploited in later recruitment."
He paused.
“This really is bothering you, isn't it?"
The adjutant tried to meet his gaze, and failed again.
“Listen, Bejaind. You are an outstanding staff officer; and I value your
loyalty and concern. But why does one warrior-lodge initiation on one
feral world disturb you so? I've gone through more than twenty of these
rituals in the past. I've been a Space Marine and a commander of
Marines for more than a century. You need have no fears for me."
"My lord, I.."
The Warmaster rose abruptly.
"Enough." His voice was softer; more dangerous. "I am Horus, General
and Warmaster The first soldier of the Imperium, subordinate only to
the Emperor himself Shall it be said that Horus ran away from a hutful
of savages?"
Bejaind struggled for words.
"My lord... I have had - dreams..."His distress was genuine. Horus laid
a hand on his shoulder
"Control yourself", he said gently. "You are excused for the rest of the
day. Go to the Apothacarion for a psychological update. And then,
perhaps, to the Chapel. A few hours' meditation will do you good.
Unless you prefer to report these dreams and submit yourself to the
Inquisition for psychic potential testing?"
Bejaind swallowed hard. "No, my lord."
"Well, then." Horus patted his shoulder gently.
"Go now, and we'll say no more. Meanwhile, I must meet the Elders of
the Knife of Stone."
And in the warp, something smiled.

Baneboss
10-12-2013, 13:22
That's my main problem with the tone. I much prefer the background material and artwork in the 1st edition Adeptus Titanicus and Space Marine. Instead of "cogitators", "Astartes", "Servitors" and the like, you had "computers", "Space Marines", "Cyborgs", etc. Partly that was a reflection of the tone of 4ok as a whole in the late 80s/early 90s, but now it works well as a contrast to the tone of modern 40k (in both senses).

With that i agree. I also find too many religious and overall 40k elements in a setting that should be much more secular. For example i dislike that FW uses plastic gothic buildings for their terrain for their depiction of Istvaan III or interior of Iron Warriors ship boarded by Imperial Fists, etc. Too many relgious elements on those and too many skulls.

Rufiodies
10-12-2013, 13:58
"Control yourself", he said gently. "You are excused for the rest of the
day. Go to the Apothacarion for a psychological update. And then,
perhaps, to the Chapel. A few hours' meditation will do you good.
Unless you prefer to report these dreams and submit yourself to the
Inquisition for psychic potential testing?"

... There was no inquisition before the heresy if i'm not mistaken.
is that an actual excerpt or just something off the top of your head?

MR.Tea
10-12-2013, 15:07
I dont mind when some mystery is revealed... but there has to be some rules... do not create hype around something, you will leave people disappointed (Sigilite cover with two skulls for instance)...and do not do someting for sake of doing it (Wolverine origins movie, or Star Wars midichlorians)...

On the side note, I hope GW will never reveal what happend to two missing legions...

Largo
10-12-2013, 15:56
I have I admit to being torn concerning the missing legions.

On one hand I enjoy the mystery surrounding them and the open opportunity to make up my own ideas as to who they were an why they have been utterly obliterated from Imperial records.

But on the other hand, I'd love to see what an author could come up with given free range.

What could work would be to have the story written out by several authors and all published in one book. Could be propaganda, could be misinterpreted warp dreams from an astropath.

Either or really

Idaan
10-12-2013, 15:58
... There was no inquisition before the heresy if i'm not mistaken.
is that an actual excerpt or just something off the top of your head?

The tabletop wargame "Space Marine" was released in 1989, and had first pieces of background to touch on the Heresy. A lot of the details were changed since then.

baphomael
10-12-2013, 18:32
I don't mind the HH series... but what I would likd is the series to create as much mystery as it explores, for every question is answers pose another two. 40k needs a sense of myth and legend.

Karhedron
10-12-2013, 20:35
I have I admit to being torn concerning the missing legions.

I somehow doubt that anything even the most talented author could come up with would satisfy the collective daydreams and internet speculations of 20+ years of poring over tiny scraps on the missing legions.

theJ
15-12-2013, 20:05
I somehow doubt that anything even the most talented author could come up with would satisfy the collective daydreams and internet speculations of 20+ years of poring over tiny scraps on the missing legions.

...unless ~90% of that time was spent speculating on how a female space marine would look, anyway :p
Don't overestimate the value of time. When given time, all we really end up doing is reiterate old ideas. It's when pressed that we come up with the interesting stuff*

Status Quo is both good and bad; Good when preventing disaster, and bad when halting evolution. The crux of the matter is that we never quite know which one it is at the moment. 'Case:Missing Legions' could be an excellent way to push some fresh new ideas into the setting... and also a way to push some rotten new ideas into the setting.
I do not know which one it will/might be, but I do know it's FAR too early to dismiss it as a terrible idea - seeing how we don't even know what kind of idea it is.

..I've always wanted a greek/bysantine inspired legion.... :shifty:

*interesting, in this case, meaning just that; interesting. Not good, not bad, just interesting.

Tymell
15-12-2013, 20:07
I didn't see anything inherently wrong in exploring the Heresy era when it was first announced, and I still don't see anything wrong with it now. There are good stories and there are bad ones, but personally I think it's far more interesting to see this expanded upon than re-hashing the same damn stories of 40K over and over.

I can see that for some the mythological aspect of the Heresy is it's main or entire appeal, but I personally never saw that aspect as intrinsic to it. It felt more like simply a part of (from the POV of the 40K setting) ancient history that told what it needed to in order to help set up that 'main' setting, the 41st Millennium, and it could be explored and fleshed out or left as it was.

(and Lynch's review just comes off as pretentious nonsense TBH. The fact that it concludes with: "Prometheus is the same kind of portentous swindle: just Jews making millions peddling myths for ******." doesn't exactly speak well for it's integrity and intellectual value)


On the side note, I hope GW will never reveal what happend to two missing legions...

It's highly unlikely. To quote from Nick Kyme's afterword in Vulkan Lives:

"It's [Vulkan's fate] the one piece of Heresy lore, other than the identity and fate of the lost Legions (and don't hold your breath on that one, folks - no, really, you'll only asphyxiate yourselves) that has never truly been answered."

harlokin
15-12-2013, 20:21
The PoV is understandable, but as has been already stated nobody has to read any of the HH fluff if they prefer 'the mystery'.

I have found many of the books to be excellent (particularly the ADB stuff), and I MUCH prefer the 30K setting.

agurus1
15-12-2013, 22:03
My thing is that the HH books reveal a lot, but also open up a lot more questions too. Now we wonder what exactly happened during the Unity Wars, what happened to the Thunder Warriors, what did the Emperor truly intend for the Primarchs and Space Marines after the Crusade, ect, ect...

Hengist
15-12-2013, 22:39
Firstly, the seriousness with which I'm going to treat a film review in which the author digresses twice to blame the Jews for everything is not vast.

Secondly, while I wouldn't deny that the Heresy stories have been of mixed quality, the introduction of concepts like the Imperial Truth has actually gone some way towards re-emphasising the tragedy and horror of the 40k setting.

Orthodox
16-12-2013, 06:06
The Imperial Truth is tragic. If the Imperium had had eighteen legions with the anti chaos powers of the Lectitio Divinatus, there would be no Heresy and no chaos factions at all.

Rogue Star
16-12-2013, 14:33
On the side note, I hope GW will never reveal what happend to two missing legions...

Had a nice chat with BL writer James Swallow when he was visiting my local GW store. He said the intention behind the two Missing Legions was, funnily enough, the thing the 40K community normally shuns people away from, which is to let you make your own Legions, etc.

TheGreatestGood
16-12-2013, 15:17
If the original purpose of the 2 missing legions was to allow People to create their own space Marine factions, and at the time the 20 legions were conceived it almost certainly was, then times have moved on. It is easy for any player of Marines to do what they want with their collection and make up a background without the missing legion worry. BL Continue to tease and tantalise readers in the novels with the odd sentence or comment here and there and I think it's about the time they unleashed the shackles on the authors about them. It would create a massive buzz in the community. Clearly as with all background, this would be positive and negative. Let's not forget the big alpharius new background which is now accepted fluff, but at the time was pretty shocking stuff.

Azazyll
16-12-2013, 15:18
You probably don't like The Silmarillion either, then.

still-young
16-12-2013, 15:44
Part of me really wants to know what happened to the missing legions. I like someone's idea of letting all the authors have a go and publish them all as unofficial fluff just to see what they could come up with. Then we still won't really know but awesome new stories.

Hengist
16-12-2013, 17:11
Had a nice chat with BL writer James Swallow when he was visiting my local GW store. He said the intention behind the two Missing Legions was, funnily enough, the thing the 40K community normally shuns people away from, which is to let you make your own Legions, etc.

James would, like most of us here, still have been in short trousers when the concept of the deleted legions was introduced, so the odds are he's simply repeating received wisdom on the subject. Indeed the 'space to make up your own' rationale does not bear scrutiny; back in 1989 when the deleted legions - originally three in number - were first mentioned, it had never been stated that there were only twenty, indeed eighteen more were officially named at the time, making twenty-one. (Remember, this is also before concepts like primarchs; Horus, Russ and Guilliman were named back then, but were just Imperial generals.)

Long after the fact, Rick Priestley's word on the subject was that when he addressed the legions for 40k 2nd, he simply took the eighteen existing official names from Epic 1st ed., and cut the deleted legions to two to fit the newly self-imposed limit of twenty; the vague notion in his mind - which he never set down in print - was that they had originally rebelled with Horus before realising his corruption by Chaos, whereupon they turned against him, being destroyed in the process; their deletion from Imperial records, while the traitor legions would be remembered and despised, was thus a reward as much as a punishment.

None of this, of course, can still be canonical now, but it's relevant a discussion of design history, and to setting straight a widely-believed inaccuracy.

Captain Stern
16-12-2013, 21:34
You probably don't like The Silmarillion either, then.

The Silmarillion is written as a legend in the same way the Horus Heresy used to be handled in the background sections of the codices. The Horus Heresy equivelant of the Silmarillion would have been something along the lines of a series of short pieces like Bill King's The Lion and the Wolf collected into one or a few volumes. Actually, if memory serves, there was something along those lines planned at one time called "Liber Imperialis". The trouble is that would have made GW far less money than what they ended up doing, which is crank out dozens (& eventually hundreds) of hack written novels of the standard type.

Tymell
16-12-2013, 22:26
The Silmarillion is written as a legend in the same way the Horus Heresy used to be handled in the background sections of the codices. The Horus Heresy equivelant of the Silmarillion would have been something along the lines of a series of short pieces like Bill King's The Lion and the Wolf collected into one or a few volumes. Actually, if memory serves, there was something along those lines planned at one time called "Liber Imperialis". The trouble is that would have made GW far less money than what they ended up doing, which is crank out dozens (& eventually hundreds) of hack written novels of the standard type.

So how many of them have you read? Logically it must be at least dozens for you to be able to dismiss such a number as nothing but "hack written novels".

In fact, that would be most of the entire series, since even counting the anthologies, there have only been about 30 novels released.

Of course, you wouldn't have to read them cover-to-cover necessarily, but still, that's a lot of time and money invested in reading a novel series which you plainly hate the very idea of, especially since there are so many different authors involved.

If you're not interested in the HH series, no worries, if you think it should never have been done, fine, if you want to point out that some entries into the series are rubbish, go for it, I'm sure almost all would agree there are some stinkers in there. But don't dismiss the entire series as "hack written novels" just because you don't like the idea of it, because as someone who -has- read almost all of it, I'd argue that for its faults the HH series contains some of the best stuff BL has ever put out.

Azazyll
16-12-2013, 23:41
The Silmarillion is written as a legend in the same way the Horus Heresy used to be handled in the background sections of the codices. The Horus Heresy equivelant of the Silmarillion would have been something along the lines of a series of short pieces like Bill King's The Lion and the Wolf collected into one or a few volumes. Actually, if memory serves, there was something along those lines planned at one time called "Liber Imperialis". The trouble is that would have made GW far less money than what they ended up doing, which is crank out dozens (& eventually hundreds) of hack written novels of the standard type.

It is written in the same general way as The Hobbit and the Lord of the Rings. That is, all three are contained in-universe in the Red Book of Westmarch. Bilbo recorded the material in the Silmarillion as "translations from the Elvish" during his time in Rivendell, hearing the stories from several elves who actually lived through the events, or had been in direct contact with the people who had, much as Bilbo composed "There and Back Again" and Frodo wrote "The Lord of the Rings."

But now that we've had the unnecessary nerd-off contest, my point was that you can enjoy the various mysterious references to Orome and Luthien and Numenor in the Lord of the Rings as just flavor, or you can explore them in detail. Hell, if you want you can explore them in far more excruciating detail than the Silmarillion, if you've a mind to trudge through the Histories of Middle Earth. And if that fails to satisfy, you can pick up the journal dedicated to publishing Tolkien's unpublished notes. And there's still more, if you don't mind signing a bunch of paperwork at the Bodleian. Which is totally worth it, even if his handwriting is hard to read, because they actually let you hold his notes.

Point is, some people like mystery and some people like more story. And since it's a free country, both people can have what they want at the same time, simply by choosing whether to read it or not.

Captain Stern
17-12-2013, 00:25
So how many of them have you read? Logically it must be at least dozens for you to be able to dismiss such a number as nothing but "hack written novels".

In fact, that would be most of the entire series, since even counting the anthologies, there have only been about 30 novels released.

Of course, you wouldn't have to read them cover-to-cover necessarily, but still, that's a lot of time and money invested in reading a novel series which you plainly hate the very idea of, especially since there are so many different authors involved.

If you're not interested in the HH series, no worries, if you think it should never have been done, fine, if you want to point out that some entries into the series are rubbish, go for it, I'm sure almost all would agree there are some stinkers in there. But don't dismiss the entire series as "hack written novels" just because you don't like the idea of it, because as someone who -has- read almost all of it, I'd argue that for its faults the HH series contains some of the best stuff BL has ever put out.

I'm not "dismissing the entire series as "hack written novels" just because I don't like the idea of it". I'm calling them hack written novels because they're novels written by hacks. They're also written by barely proven amateur writers. Abnett's the only exception but, then again, after reading that farce involving Vulkan and Night Haunter in the Unremembered Empire I'm not so sure anymore.

Even if the entire series had been penned by Abnett or King or Watson it doesn't change my original issue with what the series has done. I don't expect most of you to agree because, well, most people are vulgar spirits. That's the reason why mass produced cultural crap is so popular.

Theocracity
17-12-2013, 00:39
I don't expect most of you to agree because, well, most people are vulgar spirits. That's the reason why mass produced cultural crap is so popular.

I'm kind of curious why you care at all about 40K. Is a setting stolen from 80s sci fi and developed in the service of selling toys really a proper outlet for someone of such refined tastes as yourself?

Captain Stern
17-12-2013, 00:58
I'm kind of curious why you care at all about 40K. Is a setting stolen from 80s sci fi and developed in the service of selling toys really a proper outlet for someone of such refined tastes as yourself?

Every time someone demands any sort of high standard from GW fluff I'll see this type of snide retort. Every time.

Captain Stern
17-12-2013, 01:02
It is written in the same general way as The Hobbit and the Lord of the Rings. That is...

Let me stop you right there. While I'm impressed by your nerd knowledge the answer is no, it's not.

Theocracity
17-12-2013, 01:13
Every time someone demands any sort of high standard from GW fluff I'll see this type of snide retort. Every time.

That's really weird that so many people bring up the same fact every time.

I get that you enjoyed 40K's hack writing in the past, and want to feel the same way you did when you were younger. That's natural. But it's okay to enjoy pulp nonsense without feeling bad about it.

Captain Stern
17-12-2013, 01:35
That's really weird that so many people bring up the same fact every time.

No that's not it. It's a personality type one often encounters in this type of milieu.

Theocracity
17-12-2013, 01:57
No that's not it. It's a personality type one often encounters in this type of milieu.

Oh, are they the same ones as all the vulgar spirits?

Captain Stern
17-12-2013, 02:02
Oh, are they the same ones as all the vulgar spirits?

Hmm. No, I would rank them below the vulgar spirits.

Azazyll
17-12-2013, 02:09
I don't expect most of you to agree because, well, most people are vulgar spirits. That's the reason why mass produced cultural crap is so popular.

Wow. You are pretty important and special, aren't you? Has it ever occurred to you that some things that are popular are popular because they're good? I mean, I got over myself and learned to enjoy popular culture when I was about sixteen. Maybe you'll come around someday too. It's a lot more fun, because you don't have to spend so much time and energy convincing everyone else how much more awesome you are than them.


Let me stop you right there. While I'm impressed by your nerd knowledge the answer is no, it's not.

Of course, but you were also being deliberately obtuse to the joke I made (however unfunny it was), which annoyed me. It shares far more in common with the chansons de gest, or the sagas, but in reality with fairly standard medieval historical narrative like those by Bede, William of Malmesbury or Saxo Grammaticus (as the actual poetic segments like the Lay of Leithian went unfinished and only received a prose summary in the published Silmarillion). Which is partly what makes me like it best of the three: because it looks like the stuff I read all day for work, but I don't have to footnote it or translate it from Old English or Latin. I could go on and absolutely crush your "nerd knowledge" on this issue, but I think I've made my point to the rest of the crowd (whom I do not sneer at as peasants): you are simply rude, not better.

Theocracity
17-12-2013, 02:10
Hmm. I would rank them below the vulgar spirits.

It's always good to have a formal ranking of lesser people to sneer at.

Captain Stern
17-12-2013, 03:09
Of course, but you were also being deliberately obtuse to the joke I made, which annoyed me. It shares far more in common with the chansons de gest, or the sagas, but in reality with fairly standard medieval historical narrative like those by Bede, William of Malmesbury or Saxo Grammaticus (as the actual poetic segments like the Lay of Leithian went unfinished and only received a prose summary in the published Silmarillion). Which is partly what makes me like it best of the three: because it looks like the stuff I read all day for work, but I don't have to footnote it or translate it from Old English or Latin. I could go on and absolutely crush your "nerd knowledge" on this issue, but I think I've made my point to the rest of the crowd (whom I do not sneer at as peasants): you are simply rude, not better.

What I don't understand is why you, bizarrely, felt so compelled to use a pretext to let us all know about your completely irrelevant expertise on first The Lord of the Rings and now the chansons de gest, the sagas, Bede, William of Malmesbury and... oh yeah, the Saxo Grammaticus. I’m suitably impressed, I assure you. Clearly I'm not the only important and special one here. I'm important and special because I'm part of the minority that dislikes the vulgarity of spirit behind the Horus Heresy series and, well, you've left us in no doubt as to your importance - Oh, but you made sure to add that caveat at the end explaining you're no better than anyone else really (*wink* ;) )... even though you took great pains to demonstrate the exact opposite.

Captain Stern
17-12-2013, 03:36
Wow. You are pretty important and special, aren't you? Has it ever occurred to you that some things that are popular are popular because they're good? I mean, I got over myself and learned to enjoy popular culture when I was about sixteen. Maybe you'll come around someday too. It's a lot more fun, because you don't have to spend so much time and energy convincing everyone else how much more awesome you are than them.

Some things, sure. In general though that's just not the case. Popular culture appeals to the lowest common denominator. That's why Hip hop, Mcdonalds, Twilight, Miley Cyrus, Friends, Avatar, American Idol and twerking are so popular.

Or maybe it's because they're just good? Gee, look, it's finally occured to me.

Has it ever occured to you that it might be perverse to take such obvious pride in thinking yourself no better or worse than anyone else?

TheSaylesMan
17-12-2013, 05:26
Why is mystery an inherently good thing again? Why is desiring answers to these mysteries a bad thing? Why does providing answers to mysteries cheapen the whole?

On a side note is it unreasonable to ask that we treat each other with even the tiniest bit of decency? The smug condescension in here is thick enough to cut with a knife.

underscore
17-12-2013, 05:28
Ah, to be young and find such solace in such trite, pretentious soundbites.

But to address the op: you can quite easily replace Vulgarity of the Spirit with just straight up bad writing. Some parts of the Heresy series are pretty vulgar, they just happen to overlap rather heavily with the badly written parts.

It's just an issue with poor trade craft, not a reflection of all that's wrong with the horrible, smelly plebs and their entertainment.

underscore
17-12-2013, 05:40
Firstly, the seriousness with which I'm going to treat a film review in which the author digresses twice to blame the Jews for everything is not vast.

His Django Unchained review is particularly... erm... eye opening.

agurus1
17-12-2013, 06:14
I find it ironic that the discussion here is basically the battle in the HH series between the forces of the Emperor attempting to spread enlightenment and purge the mysteries of the Galaxy and the powers of Chaos and Old Night intent on keeping humanity in the dark lol. Just an interesting observation... please continue ;)

Poseidal
17-12-2013, 07:00
Except the Emperor was wrong, or worse, purposefully spreading misinformation.

agurus1
17-12-2013, 07:16
Whaaaaat?!!! More mystery caused by the information revealed in the HH books? Whaaaaaat??!!!

In all seriousness, I think we all know that the HH series isn't exactly Heart of Darkness or something but its still a good read at 2 AM when I can't fall asleep. I don't know if it as a whole deserves some of the slanderous language that some people are slinging.

harlokin
17-12-2013, 08:08
Exactly. Nobody is expecting great works of literature from this genre, but I have enjoyed most of the HH series, a couple of which I thought were excellent.

Tymell
17-12-2013, 08:33
I'm not "dismissing the entire series as "hack written novels" just because I don't like the idea of it". I'm calling them hack written novels because they're novels written by hacks.

My point still stands: how would you know that without investing a huge amount of time and money in reading a ton of novels, in order to have such a strong opinion on so many authors?

Plus, you're dismissing numerous authors as hacks while basing your opening post on a quote from a review that insists on a Jew conspiracy as being behind (what it took as) a bad film. That doesn't really aid your credibility much.


They're also written by barely proven amateur writers.

And? How does them being new make them automatically bad?


I don't expect most of you to agree because, well, most people are vulgar spirits.

Then why bother posting a thread about it in a public forum? That's not to say that a thread can't or shouldn't be founded with an opinion many will disagree with, but taking such a self-important and confrontational tone isn't the best way to go about it. Responding not with actual examples backing yourself up, but snide comments about how much better you are than everyone else isn't going to help either.

The HH series isn't intellectually challenging high literature, no, but not all books have to be, and BL certainly never has been about that. If that's the only kind of literature you accept as valid, you're in the wrong area. I think some authors involved in the series are better than others, but they're not hacks: they're writers creating stories about a world they love, exploring an area of background they and many fans are passionately interested in.

If you're not interested in that, that's totally up to you, but dismissing them all as nothing but hacks sounds a lot more vulgar of spirit than expanding on the Heresy period to me.

GavT
17-12-2013, 08:56
I'd just like to point out that one cannot be both a hack and an amateur. The first implies creating sub-standard work simply for payment whilst the second describes someone who does not get paid at all. So, while I am happy for you to think I am a hack, I am definitely not an amateur.

Cheers,

Gav

harlokin
17-12-2013, 09:12
My point still stands: how would you know that without investing a huge amount of time and money in reading a ton of novels, in order to have such a strong opinion on so many authors?

Plus, you're dismissing numerous authors as hacks while basing your opening post on a quote from a review that insists on a Jew conspiracy as being behind (what it took as) a bad film. That doesn't really aid your credibility much.



And? How does them being new make them automatically bad?



Then why bother posting a thread about it in a public forum? That's not to say that a thread can't or shouldn't be founded with an opinion many will disagree with, but taking such a self-important and confrontational tone isn't the best way to go about it. Responding not with actual examples backing yourself up, but snide comments about how much better you are than everyone else isn't going to help either.

The HH series isn't intellectually challenging high literature, no, but not all books have to be, and BL certainly never has been about that. If that's the only kind of literature you accept as valid, you're in the wrong area. I think some authors involved in the series are better than others, but they're not hacks: they're writers creating stories about a world they love, exploring an area of background they and many fans are passionately interested in.

If you're not interested in that, that's totally up to you, but dismissing them all as nothing but hacks sounds a lot more vulgar of spirit than expanding on the Heresy period to me.

I couldn't agree more.

kafrique
17-12-2013, 11:13
I'm honestly surprised that someone who's old enough to have been posting since 2005 could feel self-important enough to say these things. The difference between you and the rest of us, stern, is that we recognize the fact that we're already manchildren for caring about background made up to sell toy space men and can enjoy it for what it is.

That's the thing about least common denominator crap, it's made to be appealing to a large number of people. It's not deep because the creators want everyone to be able to relate. This is not because "most people are stupid." It's because everyone has different interests and specialties. You can recognize pop-culture crap as not being particularly deep, or well-crafted, or artistic, and still enjoy it for what it is- an ott sci-fi tragedy action saga, a song with a really catchy melody and a danceable beat, an excuse to watch dinosaurs fight in the most modern graphics possible, whatever.

I recommend you leave the basement and interact with someone who's different than you, and learn to take yourself a bit less seriously. I promise, the jews won't get you.

Fear Ghoul
17-12-2013, 13:56
Is this a rant against popular culture or against revelations in the Horus Heresy series?


Some things, sure. In general though that's just not the case. Popular culture appeals to the lowest common denominator. That's why Hip hop, Mcdonalds, Twilight, Miley Cyrus, Friends, Avatar, American Idol and twerking are so popular.

That's not the definition of popular culture. Popular culture is defined as that which is popular, and going by that definition the Bible, Lord of the Rings, Batman, and Greek mythology are all popular culture.

Inquisitor Engel
17-12-2013, 14:18
When it began, I was really, really annoyed with the idea of the Horus Heresy series. We already had all the answers in Index Astartes! Why add more detail when none was required? And then, I read them.

40k novels have, generally, lacked a certain something that comes from being set in some random year between M40 and M41. They can't really touch past the game's current time and going explicitly too far back confuses the youngin's. The Horus Heresy let us have so many things. By setting it within that known window, we get to know real, specific characters. We get some answers, but really we just get a lot of expansion on what we already know.

I wonder, what does Stern think of the Horus Heresy Forge World books?

Azazyll
17-12-2013, 14:42
What I don't understand is why you, bizarrely, felt so compelled to use a pretext to let us all know about your completely irrelevant expertise on first The Lord of the Rings and now the chansons de gest, the sagas, Bede, William of Malmesbury and... oh yeah, the Saxo Grammaticus. I’m suitably impressed, I assure you. Clearly I'm not the only important and special one here. I'm important and special because I'm part of the minority that dislikes the vulgarity of spirit behind the Horus Heresy series and, well, you've left us in no doubt as to your importance - Oh, but you made sure to add that caveat at the end explaining you're no better than anyone else really (*wink* ;) )... even though you took great pains to demonstrate the exact opposite.

I generally keep it to myself until someone tries to prove they're better than everyone else. Because I know there's always someone better at anything I'm good at than I am. I'm far from the most learned person I know even in my very specific specialty. There are certainly people who know more about Tolkien as well. And many people here know far more about GW lore than I do. I applaud them for it, until they put on airs about it - then I step up my game, because a rude person is fair game.

And no, not everything popular is good. McDonalds has made an empire out of making ****** food addictive. I know that - doesn't mean I don't enjoy some McNuggets once and a while. The only thing to truly judge as inferior is something that hurts people, which includes trying to make people feel bad about themselves.

I've made choices where to specialize and I've got my own tastes. They're different from those of other people. Doesn't mean I judge those people as my inferiors for liking something I don't. Am I proud of what I know? Sure. And I like chatting with other specialists (it's why I come here - I like chatting with people who know about and have different ideas about GW stuff). I reserve lording it over people for smug folks pretending that that kind of specialized knowledge makes them superior. Not going to say I don't enjoy doing it - I'm only human, after all, and endulging our baser delights is part of the experience.

Denny
17-12-2013, 15:14
My main objection to the novels is that the original heresy could get away with a lot more because of how it was written.

In a myth you can say stuff like ‘Horus was blinded by pride’ and it sounds awesome, but if you are trying to write a novel showing exactly how this happened it is considerably more challenging. Not impossible mind, just challenging.

Trying to write a novel, or a series of novels, that explain adequately why the Emperor (with all his wisdom and psychic power) choose to place The Night Haunter and Angron in charge of his armed forces is impossible unless you assume the emperor is a) really really stupid b) intent of destroying all mankind or c) has an understanding of human psychology and motivation comparable to a boiled potato.

Hengist
17-12-2013, 15:22
His Django Unchained review is particularly... erm... eye opening.

Oh my...

To begin with some faint praise of the Horus Heresy novels, I've read a hefty quantity of bad pulp SF and terrible tie-in novels, and Black Library's output is of vastly higher quality than that of its apparent peers in those niches. Compare for a moment with the Star Wars expanded universe...

However, there is more to praise than that. Yes, the average 40k novel comprises at least 50% action sequences in which our heroes show-off their badassery for the sake of promoting the sales of plastic spacemen, but to their considerable credit, BL's writers more often than not show the ambition and self-respect to do far more than that. The HH novels in particular are crammed with sly literary nods to SF classics, and clever juxtapositions with the 40k setting that we know. I don't pretend to myself that Horus Rising is comparable to A Handful of Dust or To the Lighthouse, but then I don't need to do so in order to enjoy it.

But to return to the OP, and indeed to the reviewer of Prometheus, there is something much simpler going on here; beneath the pseudo-intellectual posing (and indeed the startling racism) all I hear is a childish inability to come to terms with the fact that the cultural artefacts of the writer's youth (in this instance 40k and Alien) have not been preserved in amber for them to remember fondly, but have continued to grow and to change. Now Prometheus isn't a very good film, but its failure lies principally in being an incoherent rehash of what has gone before, not its failure to be an adequate successor to Alien (itself not a film without its own flaws, as encapsulated in Tom Baker's famous heckle of “Why don't you just go back to the refectory and bore the monster to death!”).

agurus1
17-12-2013, 16:41
Did Gav Thorp do a drive by of this thread?

underscore
17-12-2013, 16:54
The guy needs to get this titles from somewhere...

Theocracity
17-12-2013, 17:07
Oh my...

To begin with some faint praise of the Horus Heresy novels, I've read a hefty quantity of bad pulp SF and terrible tie-in novels, and Black Library's output is of vastly higher quality than that of its apparent peers in those niches. Compare for a moment with the Star Wars expanded universe...

However, there is more to praise than that. Yes, the average 40k novel comprises at least 50% action sequences in which our heroes show-off their badassery for the sake of promoting the sales of plastic spacemen, but to their considerable credit, BL's writers more often than not show the ambition and self-respect to do far more than that. The HH novels in particular are crammed with sly literary nods to SF classics, and clever juxtapositions with the 40k setting that we know. I don't pretend to myself that Horus Rising is comparable to A Handful of Dust or To the Lighthouse, but then I don't need to do so in order to enjoy it.

But to return to the OP, and indeed to the reviewer of Prometheus, there is something much simpler going on here; beneath the pseudo-intellectual posing (and indeed the startling racism) all I hear is a childish inability to come to terms with the fact that the cultural artefacts of the writer's youth (in this instance 40k and Alien) have not been preserved in amber for them to remember fondly, but have continued to grow and to change. Now Prometheus isn't a very good film, but its failure lies principally in being an incoherent rehash of what has gone before, not its failure to be an adequate successor to Alien (itself not a film without its own flaws, as encapsulated in Tom Baker's famous heckle of “Why don't you just go back to the refectory and bore the monster to death!”).

Very well said. The important fact of this thread is that its possible to judge the subjective quality of a product based on its context, instead of tricking yourself into believing that your subjective experience in youth is actually objective truth and that anyone who disagrees is a lesser being.

Scribe of Khorne
17-12-2013, 17:39
I disagree. Horus Heresy is the best thing that happened to the hobby lately. Both books and FW stuff. Yes, its not perfect but it doesnt have to be.

Indeed, for a growing number of us it is the hobby.

Flame Boy
17-12-2013, 19:28
Well, the discussion in this thread reminds me of this sketch: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=THNPmhBl-8I

However, from my personal opinion of the series, I have enjoyed the extra details. Prior to the Heresy series, I knew Rogal Dorn as the name of a guy that really likes the colour yellow, annoyed Perturabo with an honest answer to a question, and who doesn't like getting pounced on. From the Heresy novels, I've learned about his reputation, how it compared to his personality, his thoughts on his duty. I don't think it's demystified him that much, It's not like I know what his favourite breakfast cereal is, it just makes him into a character that goes on to shape his legion in 40k, rather than a practically blank slate.

Another example I thought was interesting was Roboute Guilliman. For a guy that's been mentioned constantly for his work on the Codex Astartes ever since 2nd edition, There's very little I knew about him when I thought about it. It's nice to know something about him. In current-day 40k, he's pretty much just a well-preserved scribe.

Luxem
17-12-2013, 20:05
Well, the discussion in this thread reminds me of this sketch: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=THNPmhBl-8I

However, from my personal opinion of the series, I have enjoyed the extra details. Prior to the Heresy series, I knew Rogal Dorn as the name of a guy that really likes the colour yellow, annoyed Perturabo with an honest answer to a question, and who doesn't like getting pounced on. From the Heresy novels, I've learned about his reputation, how it compared to his personality, his thoughts on his duty. I don't think it's demystified him that much, It's not like I know what his favourite breakfast cereal is, it just makes him into a character that goes on to shape his legion in 40k, rather than a practically blank slate.

Another example I thought was interesting was Roboute Guilliman. For a guy that's been mentioned constantly for his work on the Codex Astartes ever since 2nd edition, There's very little I knew about him when I thought about it. It's nice to know something about him. In current-day 40k, he's pretty much just a well-preserved scribe.

This. I don't understand what some of the people were hoping for on here from the HH as a whole. The authors themselves do good work (Honestly, most of the novels I have read have been mediocre at worst), and I like to think they fit with the lore as best they can, while still trying to innovate and refreshes the series as time moves forward.

agurus1
17-12-2013, 20:16
like Flame Boy said, the HH series has given me a chance to learn a lot more about my chosen Legions character and Primarch. I mean before Angel Exerminatus, Purturabo was that guy that really likes knocking down walls and had anger issues. Now I know about his secret creativity which was stifled by the needs of the Crusade and led to his anger/resentment. I know more about the way he saw the world and WHY he did what he did. It just brings that much more to the setting to me, and also to my games.

Menthak
17-12-2013, 22:19
I personally don't see how the books are poorly written at all, I think they're well written and get across the knowledge and events of the Heresy to those players who want to explore the background more.

I'd rather have the option to see something I might dislike than just be ignorant.

MvS
17-12-2013, 23:35
Film reviewer Tevor Lynch

The fact that you've chosen to read, let alone quote, that obnoxious and fantastically ignorant racist effectively incinerates the credibility of the discussion before it even begins.

Polaria
18-12-2013, 09:06
His racism doesn't make his film critique automatically wrong. Especially when the films and the critique had absolutely nothing to do with racism.


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MvS
18-12-2013, 10:01
His racism doesn't make his film critique automatically wrong. Especially when the films and the critique had absolutely nothing to do with racism.

It most certainly does in this case. How he seems to view storytelling, films, art and culture in general is inextricably bound up with his foolishly racist world views.

But let's not drag this thread even further off topic.

Polaria
18-12-2013, 10:06
I still think the original point about demystification and trying to explain away all things being something essential to our time is valid. No matter who was quoted for it.


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MvS
18-12-2013, 10:14
I still think the original point about demystification and trying to explain away all things being something essential to our time is valid. No matter who was quoted for it.

...and that's a defensible position that many others hold and which doesn't require quoting someone who has actually written a white supremacist's guide to film appreciation. :)

It's like posting a thread about why being nice to animals is a Good Thing, but perhaps using the words of that well known animal lover Adolf Hitler for the initial quote. The underlying principle may have traction, but using such a renowned and unpleasant nutbag as one's first choice of wisdom on the matter is... counter-productive, to say the least.

Polaria
18-12-2013, 10:18
Agreed. It does run a risk of original point being lost in political debate outside the subject matter.


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MvS
18-12-2013, 10:26
Just in case, Polaria, I want to be clear that didn't at all mean to imply that everyone with a similar view about that film or the HH series should be clumped into the same box as a dangerously racist polemicist.

Apologies if anything I said came across that way! Wasn't intentional.

harlokin
18-12-2013, 10:38
Agreed. It does run a risk of original point being lost in political debate outside the subject matter.

Whatever merits there were in discussing the HH series were lost due to the OP's obnoxiously arrogant tone.

KingCro
18-12-2013, 10:43
Well, the discussion in this thread reminds me of this sketch: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=THNPmhBl-8I

However, from my personal opinion of the series, I have enjoyed the extra details. Prior to the Heresy series, I knew Rogal Dorn as the name of a guy that really likes the colour yellow, annoyed Perturabo with an honest answer to a question, and who doesn't like getting pounced on. From the Heresy novels, I've learned about his reputation, how it compared to his personality, his thoughts on his duty. I don't think it's demystified him that much, It's not like I know what his favourite breakfast cereal is, it just makes him into a character that goes on to shape his legion in 40k, rather than a practically blank slate.

Another example I thought was interesting was Roboute Guilliman. For a guy that's been mentioned constantly for his work on the Codex Astartes ever since 2nd edition, There's very little I knew about him when I thought about it. It's nice to know something about him. In current-day 40k, he's pretty much just a well-preserved scribe.

You nailed it. This exactly why I like the HH books. All these characters become... CHARACTERS! Before the books I thought of the primarchs as godlike and near infallible same as the Emperor. Now, with these books, you see that, even with all their power and knowledge they are still very human even if they do not think so. They have desires, motivations, emotions and I love reading about those. I love the fact that, before the HH books, I used to think the Emperor was always 10 steps a head and would have made the perfect human empire if only he had not made one mistake. (trusting Horus) But now these books show that, as brilliant as the Emperor was, he might have been the most flawed and arrogant character in the entire story of the Horus Heresy.

aim
18-12-2013, 11:16
Oh my...

To begin with some faint praise of the Horus Heresy novels, I've read a hefty quantity of bad pulp SF and terrible tie-in novels, and Black Library's output is of vastly higher quality than that of its apparent peers in those niches. Compare for a moment with the Star Wars expanded universe...


Good point and I do agree that the good BL novels are far better than most pulp Sci-Fi stuff, however using the Star Wars EU as an example is probably not the best idea as, although the bad is far worse than some of the BL novels, the Good (and there are more good novels in the EU than there are BL's library) are better than the good in BL's output. Granted, there is an absolute tonne of EU stuff and a lot of it is bad, however the gems make up for that. I like to think of it as the 'playstation one effect', when you have a library of content so vast it dwarfs that of the competitors, it doesn't matter too much that most of it is utter trash, because you'll end up with more high quality content through sheer weight of numbers.

Scribe of Khorne
19-12-2013, 01:13
You nailed it. This exactly why I like the HH books. All these characters become... CHARACTERS! Before the books I thought of the primarchs as godlike and near infallible same as the Emperor. Now, with these books, you see that, even with all their power and knowledge they are still very human even if they do not think so. They have desires, motivations, emotions and I love reading about those. I love the fact that, before the HH books, I used to think the Emperor was always 10 steps a head and would have made the perfect human empire if only he had not made one mistake. (trusting Horus) But now these books show that, as brilliant as the Emperor was, he might have been the most flawed and arrogant character in the entire story of the Horus Heresy.

The Emperor has always had some pretty massive gaps in logical process. Hopefully the next few books fix that up.

KingCro
19-12-2013, 07:12
The Emperor has always had some pretty massive gaps in logical process. Hopefully the next few books fix that up.

I attribute it to him just being so unable to relate to humanity and even to his own demigod children. He is like a parent that expects his teenage kids to do exactly what he say because he knows best, and even though he might know best he has no idea how to get them to listen to him. I mean Magnus always baffled me. I mean you make a son that is the representation of your psychic might and then tell him "hey you know all those amazing psychic gifts I gave you? well...You cant use them because its dangerous but I wont tell you why!" One thing i have learned in my job, if i tell somebody not to do something just because they will probably do it because they don't know the consequences. But if i tell them not to do something and explain why they are much more likely to do what I tell them. Its just like Pandora's box. Give her a box and tell not to open it or else something bad will happen, then of course she opens it. But i bet if they told her "hey if you open that box the entire world will go to **** and there will be this thing called evil that will now exist so for the love of god don't open it!" she would have been much less likely to open it.

Israfael
19-12-2013, 17:52
The Emperor has always had some pretty massive gaps in logical process. Hopefully the next few books fix that up.

I doubt any of the writers - regardless of their talent - want to touch this subject.

There are so many bizarre situations regarding the Emperor and his 'plans', that I'm not sure anyone could clear it all up with anything aside from a full-on recton of the vast majority of the existing material.

Retrospectus
20-12-2013, 20:31
(whom I do not sneer at as peasants)

As a peasant I am offended :)

What I love about the HH series is that we get to see inside the heads of space marines before they turned into omnicidal monsters/fanatical warrior-monks. we see how the space marines should have been, what the imperium should have been

on a side note, I don't suppose anyone knows if there's some form of list detailing which primarchs are in which novels? I tend to buy them based on which legion is featuring and it would save time if I knew which novels to hunt for (bookstores suck where I live)

Inquisitor Engel
21-12-2013, 15:59
on a side note, I don't suppose anyone knows if there's some form of list detailing which primarchs are in which novels? I tend to buy them based on which legion is featuring and it would save time if I knew which novels to hunt for (bookstores suck where I live)

I would strongly recommend just buying all of them. It's not like they're expensive books (unless you're only buying the hardbacks). There's significant tie-ins and developments across the novels that don't necessarily have to do with specific primarchs, and some Primarchs make surprise appearances in quite a few.

Tymell
21-12-2013, 17:09
on a side note, I don't suppose anyone knows if there's some form of list detailing which primarchs are in which novels? I tend to buy them based on which legion is featuring and it would save time if I knew which novels to hunt for (bookstores suck where I live)

As Engel says, there's a lot of connections between the novels, especially as the series goes on: while it started a bit more isolated, it's now at the point where you can't really say each novel matches with one legion and so on.

However, that said, I do have a list of my own where I keep track of all the different plot threads running through the series, so I'll send a PM with my own findings to give at least a bit of guidance on this :)

Grimbad
21-12-2013, 17:21
I used to feel this way about the Horus Heresy, that it was draining the mystery from the 40k setting. And, to some extent, I still do. Revelations, vocabulary and tone from M31 all slip into M41. It's often subtle in the official material, but it's very noticeable in the way the fans talk about 40k. Like I said, I used to feel this way about the Horus Heresy. Then I stopped giving a crap about the tone and words people used to discuss 40k on internet forums. Instead, I played second edition with my friends in the versions of 40k universe that we like, and started ignoring whatever we wanted to ignore from GW and the internet and picking up whatever we choose from earlier versions of the game. I might end up getting one of those Forgeworld robots, or a rapier, or the retro Land Raider, but as a touch of late RT/early 2nd edition rather than as a Horus Heresy thing.

The 40k universe and the 40k rules are both improved if you house rule them with your friends instead of trying to get the whole world to agree about it on the internet.

Lord Squidar
21-12-2013, 22:39
To the OP: for all your snarky comments and over intellectualism, you still have Armold Schwartzenegger as your profile pic, the very king of the "vulgar" pulp action movies of the 80's that spawned 40k and other such awesomeness. Pot calling the kettle black me thinks?

As for that movie critic... In his review of Desolation of Smaug, his part about Lake Town spurns Stephen Fry for being "The Jew" and he has written a book called The White Supremicists Guide to Movie Reviews or some such malarky. You really want to emulate a disgusting person like that?

Give it a rest. Like the horus heresy or not, no one is forcing you to read it, nor eat at maccy dee's nor listen to miley cyrus or anything.

P.s. LONG LIVE THE KING, GET TO THE CHOPPA!

ryng_sting
22-12-2013, 18:31
Lynch sounds like a crashing snob.

theJ
23-12-2013, 06:56
To go back to an earlier quesiton...:


Why is mystery an inherently good thing again? Why is desiring answers to these mysteries a bad thing? Why does providing answers to mysteries cheapen the whole?

On a side note is it unreasonable to ask that we treat each other with even the tiniest bit of decency? The smug condescension in here is thick enough to cut with a knife.

Mystery is a good thing because it forces us to think for ourselves; it creates innumberable possibilities, each formed ourselves, and thus by their very nature more interesting than anything anyone else could tell us.
Desiring answers is not a bad thing; if we did not desire them, we would not seek them, and the whole point of the mysteries would vanish.

All that being said, there is one flaw in the above - time. We've had these mysteries for a very very long time now, and frankly, they're just not as interesting as they once were. We've created as many theories as we can be arsed to create, we've speculated until we've lost interest.
It is time to move on. On to new, fresh mysteries, where we can repeat the process all over again - which is essentially what the Horus Heresy series does. It moves on. It provides the groundwork for the new era that so many have begged for over the years.

I'd write more, but I've got a bus to catch. See ya' laterz! :D

Joewrightgm
23-12-2013, 15:20
I don't think the peeling back the curtain of mystery of the heresy is any bad thing. In fact I think this is some of the best writing and characterization done in the tie in fiction.

I've gone from having little sympathy for the traitors and loyalists to having these beings of legend have reasons, passions and desires.

Lorgar is no longer a child acting out, he was forced to watch his legions great works reduced to ash and told his self-assumed purpose all this time was wrong.

Horus was given a position of amazing power but like some people, feels it more of a burden, and his works unappreciated. I feel the heresy series provides better context and I feel no way diminishes the the prior history established.