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09philj
11-12-2013, 15:28
I was wondering if a link between them had ever been mentioned in the fluff. After all, they are both heavy weapons specialists with skeleton styling.

roostar86
11-12-2013, 15:49
Not as far as I am aware the hareliquns are a seperate entity from craftworlders

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TheBearminator
11-12-2013, 16:35
They went to school together but never got along very well. Have you seen the emo versus vampire kids episode of South Park? A bit like that. People always got them mixed up cause they were always dressed in black and wore kind of the same attributes, and they just couldn't take it. Sad story really.

Hengist
13-12-2013, 00:55
Diegetically, both are styled after the personification of death in Eldar mythology.

Non-diegitically, both were designed and sculpted by Jes Goodwin, who had a pretty singular vision of how space elves should look.

Lord Damocles
14-12-2013, 09:36
Non-diegitically, both were designed and sculpted by Jes Goodwin, who had a pretty singular vision of how space elves should look.
Only the Dark Reapers and Death Jesters have the skulls and big guns styling combo though - Jes didn't go buck wild with the grimdark on any of the other Eldar he sculpted, which would suggest that the in-universe explanation was present from the beginning.

Saunders
14-12-2013, 19:49
Also bear in mind that the Craftworld Eldar and Harlequins are two distinct factions amongst the surviving eldar. Both came to embrace their imagery via seperate routes; the death jester through the roles that he is tasked with playing in harlequin performances, and the dark reaper by Khaine's aspect of the destroyer and Maugan Ra's obsession with looking evil.

Harwammer
18-12-2013, 15:46
Convergent evolution?

AndrewGPaul
19-12-2013, 10:08
Diegetically, both are styled after the personification of death in Eldar mythology.

Non-diegitically, both were designed and sculpted by Jes Goodwin, who had a pretty singular vision of how space elves should look.


Only the Dark Reapers and Death Jesters have the skulls and big guns styling combo though - Jes didn't go buck wild with the grimdark on any of the other Eldar he sculpted, which would suggest that the in-universe explanation was present from the beginning.

The Harlequins predate the Aspect Warriors by a couple of years; it seems reasonable that there was voth some "recycling" of the idea and a deliberate attempt to link the two factions via shared mythology and imagery.

Mind you, the Dark Reapers are more ... slow and relentless and ominous than the Death Jesters, who strike quickly from nowhere. It's the opposite of convergent design, really; they both started with the idea of the grim reaper, and then went in different directions.

LexxBomb
22-12-2013, 10:21
I was wondering if a link between them had ever been mentioned in the fluff. After all, they are both heavy weapons specialists with skeleton styling.

yes they are infact directly linked... They both represent the C'tan Aza'gorod (Nightbringer) or as the eldar call him Kaelis Ra. When he fought Khaine he was defeated and his body shattered and a slither enterd Khaines body tainting him... thats where the Dark reapers come from... The Death Jesters, he represents the Kaelis Ra in their plays.

Lord Damocles
22-12-2013, 11:43
Death Jesters play the Yngir more generally (in the Death of Light, for example, multiple C'tan are present). They also play the role(s) of Death more generally (as spelt out by the 4th ed. Codex: Eldar (pg.49)), which may also account for the skulls etc.

Hendarion
23-12-2013, 14:57
The Death Jesters, he represents the Kaelis Ra in their plays.Quote is from where? Because as far as I remember they just play the role of death in general.

LexxBomb
24-12-2013, 10:25
I remember reading that the novel "Farseer" by William King

Hendarion
26-12-2013, 06:39
Ah well, that explains a lot...

Ishtar5
28-12-2013, 00:18
Quote is from where? Because as far as I remember they just play the role of death in general.

In the eldar mind, Kaelis Ra is Death. In fact that c'tan became the embodiment of death to almost every race.

Shamana
29-12-2013, 11:32
I think that is the connection - Death/The Nightbringer is in a sense represented in both. Aspects shrines are essentially cults of Khaine, while harlequins are sort of cults of Cegorach, but the M.O. of both are quite different. Yet Dark Reapers represent the aspect of Khaine that may be influenced or tainted by the C'tan - the bringer of impersonal, almost nihilistic death from afar. On the other side, as all harlequins participate in the troupe plays, and death is probably featured in quite a few, it stands to reason that the Death Jester's costume would be fashioned after the Eldar idea of death personified.

Sai-Lauren
29-12-2013, 11:53
Agree with Shamana, Death Jesters (and Dark Reapers) simply use the Eldar's imagery of death because of the psychologies of their particular roles.

LexxBomb
29-12-2013, 12:15
I think that is the connection - Death/The Nightbringer is in a sense represented in both. Aspects shrines are essentially cults of Khaine, while harlequins are sort of cults of Cegorach, but the M.O. of both are quite different. Yet Dark Reapers represent the aspect of Khaine that may be influenced or tainted by the C'tan - the bringer of impersonal, almost nihilistic death from afar. On the other side, as all harlequins participate in the troupe plays, and death is probably featured in quite a few, it stands to reason that the Death Jester's costume would be fashioned after the Eldar idea of death personified.

then why are Death Jesters equiped with Heavy Weapons... If they are Death personified individually (which you equate to being polar opposites of Dark Reapers) then they would be equipped with Close Combat weapons... In fact the Harlequins have a weapon which is called the Harlequin's Kiss, but really represents the Kiss of Death on a personal level and that weapon is from memory the exclusive weapon of the Solitare who represents Slannesh...

Lord Damocles
29-12-2013, 12:55
The Harlequins Kiss is used by all Harlequins (and has been for as long as they've had rules and models).


Death Jesters are aren't entirely ranged - the Citadel Journal list gave then Power Blades - something which is even represented on the current model (although sadly, like Power Weapons and Plasma Grenades for regular bods, isn't covered by the rules). The Rogue Trader list gave them access to Kisses (which the Dark Eldar version still have, IIRC) and Power Gloves.

Hendarion
30-12-2013, 09:30
In the eldar mind, Kaelis Ra is Death.Death Jesters existed quite a few years before the idea of the C'tan. So... no. Kaelis Ra may be a scary foe, but the Eldar know that he is just a C'tan and not Death himself. His visual may have impacted on all races, but that doesn't mean the Eldar believe it to be "The Death itself".

LexxBomb
30-12-2013, 11:25
Just because the concept of the Death Jesters existed in our reality before C'tan does not equate to that working in the universe of 40k itself...heck the lore is contradictory...some interpretationjs of the lore read that the Laughing God is a C'tan, if you accept both lores that say that a Deciever convinced the C'Tan to feed on themselves and the laughting God having done the same thing. Im not saying they are the same being but a literal interpretaion of the Lore reads as such. Also from a in universe percpective the C'tan existed long before the Eldar did. In fact the Eldar where created to fight them so it is quite accurate to say that Kaelis Ra is Death to them as that is exactly who it is was to them...

Lord Damocles
30-12-2013, 13:22
...heck the lore is contradictory...some interpretationjs of the lore read that the Laughing God is a C'tan, if you accept both lores that say that a Deciever convinced the C'Tan to feed on themselves and the laughting God having done the same thing. Im not saying they are the same being but a literal interpretaion of the Lore reads as such.
While Codex: Necrons (3rd ed.) states that 'it is told that it was the Deciever who first set one [C'tan] against another...' (pg.31), neither the Death of Light - 'Dawn of the C'tan' (White Dwarf 273 (UK), pg.26) version, or Kaelor's contested version from Eldar Prophesy (glossary under 'Cegorach') - mention Cegorach's turning of the C'tan (Outsider/Nightbringer depending on version of the myth(s)) as being the first time it's been done; nor do either of the mentions of Cegorach acting against the Nightbringer in Xenolgy (Czevak's translation and D'reyx's reading of the Harlequin artefacts).

So the actions of the Deciever and Cegorach needn't mutually exclusive.

Hendarion
03-01-2014, 16:43
some interpretationjs of the lore read that the Laughing God is a C'tanThat is not the lore from GW, it is the interpretation by fans. And its wrong.

LexxBomb
04-01-2014, 01:55
even with the current Lore unless they have a scene in which both characters are in the same room and interact with each other the interpretation of the Lore is valid. They have to explicitly show that the Laughing God is a warp based entity to disprove the Laughing God/Deciever link... and thats the thing... GW have released Lore that basicly directly links the Characters as one.

Hendarion
04-01-2014, 07:35
They have shown a dozen of times that the Laughing God is a warp based entity. Maybe reading the Codex would help. I can't believe we're having this nonsense discussion yet again.

Lord Damocles
04-01-2014, 12:49
GW have released Lore that basicly directly links the Characters as one.
No they haven't.



I can't believe we're having this nonsense discussion yet again.
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