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Neffer
13-12-2013, 14:31
Hi all,

I have a game next week (2000pts) with my lizards vs Skaven. I've played once against Skaven with a different opponent and using my Bretonnians so I know a little of what's what, and what to expect.

I currently have my eye on maybe using Tehenhauin in a unit of swarms and a nice large unit of skinks (hatred) with kroxigors maybe throw ina crown of command some where and use that to bog down is bigger units with plague monks etc . Throw in some temple guard and unit of saurus's maybe a bastiladon, old blood and looking at some terrodons to try and deal with his Warmachines at the back.

I have just started on this so nothing is set in stone yet, I'm just after any tactics people might know that works well against skaven. Any particular magic items I should look at etc. Are Terradons a good choice to take out his warp canon etc...

Any advice appreciated.

Thanks

SteveW
13-12-2013, 14:48
Fiery convocation. its pretty much a game ender if he bring a massive amount of t3 troops

Neffer
13-12-2013, 15:20
Yeah that would work, but its a high cost +19. In a 2000 point game I find the Slaan a bit to much on the points. I'm a returning player to the game after 10 year gap so I'm pretty newb. I've found the Slaan to be pretty useless...that's kind of wrong...I just think the magic system is so unreliable that to invest such a large chunk of points into a spell caster like a slaan is a bad move, definitely for 2000 any way. But yes Fiery convocation would do the trick, I'll look into it atleast.

Thanks for the advice!

underscore
13-12-2013, 16:06
Remember though, that high cost is going to carry on into your enemy's magic phase as he has to dispel it. It's one of my most hated spells, that one!

Neffer
13-12-2013, 16:18
Remember though, that high cost is going to carry on into your enemy's magic phase as he has to dispel it. It's one of my most hated spells, that one!

yes I did realize that ofc its a pain to dispel, its a nasty one. When I use a slaan again I don't think I'll keep him in the TG unit, think I'd rather have him on his own with the ethereal ability he can have.

Methios
13-12-2013, 16:36
I use the slann in a block of TG. And gor'rok in a unit of saurus. Gor'rok is awsome. And gives Stuborn to the saurus. The slann obv make your TG stuborn. Giving you 2 stuborn cold blooded blocks. I would go for chameleon skinks rather then Terradons. If your set on going with flyers use rippers instead...they are just way better. The Basti is a decent choice as his lazor will do wonders against t3.
Lastly i would never leave home without alteast 1 scar-vet (or old one) on a cold one.

SteveW
13-12-2013, 16:39
Taking the Slaan out of a unit is a bad idea, with things like fying DP's and Disc lords running amok it's a dangerous place to be without a bodyguard.

13713
13-12-2013, 17:00
Don't get caught up on the slave blocks. Ignore special weapons because they have a 50/50 chance of working and if your opponent is being a jerk kill his army with fire. (literally use gas and flame on his figures)

Neffer
13-12-2013, 17:21
Don't get caught up on the slave blocks. Ignore special weapons because they have a 50/50 chance of working and if your opponent is being a jerk kill his army with fire. (literally use gas and flame on his figures)

Lol yeah i know what there stuff can be like. In the 1 game I've had vs skaven his lightning canon thing misfired 1st 3 times then misfire on the bounce the 4th. Both his warp throwers misfired on their 1st shots and blew up lol. I'm yet to experience what damage they can do to me.

The battle I have on Wednesday is a different play though, I know he will be using some kind of Gatling gun? and a warp canon thingie maybe a doom wheel? and I've definitely seen him using the bell.

3eland
13-12-2013, 17:35
As a Skaven and LM player myself I will tell you what I would do in this situation and maybe it'll help.

If I was the Skaven player knowing I'm going up against LM the first thing I would include is 1-2 Cannons and/or Doomwheels. This is because the ignore armour of the cannon vs a Stegadon is a sure way of killing it, even the random strength on the Doomwheel bolts can possibly kill a Stegadon on a single shot. Not knowing what I am going up against, a cannon/doomwheel is a sure way of dealing with any monsters that might be brought and also to destroy those pesky t4 saurus, kroxigor, cold ones, etc.

The next thing I would most likely bring is 1-3 Large units of Clan Rats with shields and/or 1-3 Large units of Slaves. Each unit with a banner and musician. These units I know can stay in combat with even Saurus Warriors and still hold out (if not break the lizards due to combat res). Against skinks I will most likely win due to my higher ws and toughness (unless slaves then same ws), since both initiatives are equal. Skinks have a natural 6+ Armour while Clan rats would have a 5+ armour and a 6+ invul. Slaves are just slaves and who cares. Even having a Kroxigor in a unit of skinks will manage another 2 hits/wounds on a decent roll so i am not too worried in throwing a large bunker of rats into them.

Next, Plague. Whether it is the Plague Claw Catapult or the poison wind mortars, even a level 2 Plague Priest. Ignore armour really helps, and reducing toughness makes it even easier.

Lastly, Storm banner. I know Lizardmen have flying and pesky shooting (both skink skirmishers and stegadons). I would take the banner so to give my war machines that little extra time.

Anything else is then purely up to the user and what units he likes to use. For example, I love units of giant rats. The ability to attack in 3 ranks even on the charge at an average statline means I will be doing a good amount of damage to whatever unit I face.

.........

As a Lizardmen player knowing I'm up against Skaven the first thing I would do is weigh the possibility that they will be bringing warmchines for my Monsters. Most likely a definite yes. So, if I was going to bring a Monster, it would purely be for support and I would try and limit what it did so as to not get blown up turn 1 of my opponents side.

Skirmishers. 10 man skink skirmishers are lovely to harass rats and their war machines. The poison combines with double tap, you are most likely going to do some good damage prior to your main units getting into combat.

Solid blocks of Saurus. Some people hate Saurus, but when a Skink army relies on their monsters which can easily be defeated turn 1/2 by the heavy warfare of Skaven machines... you must rely on something more "resilient". Saurus being S/T4 with cold-blooded, a 5+ (4+ with the shield), they make solid units vs rats and their machines. A natural LD of 8 with cold-blooded is strong to defeat, the Skaven player would need to do some target saturation to fully wipe a solid block of Saurus. Cold One Riders are also a viable choice, don't trip over the Stupidity. LD check with cold-blooded has almost never been a problem for me (yes there will be times when you do fail). They can hit hard, especially against the flank of rats or other more resilient units/models.

Magic. Lizardmen are awesome at magic... don't forget to give him pain with it. Like previously said, Fiery Convocation hurts. I had a High Elf player do it on my large 40 model (with two character) unit of Clan rats and I lost easily 20 rats in that single phase. Then, having to dispel it at 19? No way! Beasts can really help Saurus warriors, S5/T5 can hold up against even the best skaven have to offer.

Salamanders, these guys will hurt large units so easily!

Everything else is purely bias on the user, Rippers and teradons would work yes. But if he pops the storm banner.. your pretty much useless unless one of you roll that 4+, but even still, giving him one extra turn might be all he needs.

Slann is obviously powerful in the magic phase, and popping him into some TG is always a challenge to defeat.

Tehen with the hatred Skaven can really help, but that is a lot of extra points for a slight boost in combat. I cannot sway either way with this one, however, he is a solid character and at LD 8 is still very good.

You'll most likely want a dispel scroll caddy, because more than likely he will be fielding a Seer with his D3 Tokens and possible more he bought, just waiting to transform all your Lizards into rats. I understand most of the time the IF is what let's it go off, but don't get suckered into using all your dispel dice while he has tokens left. Many times I have done that to opponents... wittle their dispel dice until I have 1-2 left, so they relax "Oh no big spell this time" and then I 6 dice it with my tokens, having it go off and my opponent sighing in frustration!


.........

Anyways, my little bias opinions on your post. Hopefully some of it helps :D


EDIT: Gor-rok is an aweosme must have if you want a large, solid block of Saurus. I once took on a unit of 15+ High Elf Knights (the 2+ ones) AND a Phoenix in my side and ended up (after a few rounds) making them run! Mind you, I had Gor-rok and wildform on them. Still... at his point cost.. such an easy way for stubborn!

Neffer
13-12-2013, 18:35
If I was the Skaven player knowing I'm going up against !

Luckily he doesn't he knows I also have Ogres and Bretonnians and I didn't say which I would be using xD



As a Lizardmen player knowing I'm up against Skaven the first thing I would do is weigh the possibility that they will be bringing warmchines for my Monsters.

Yeah im very much 100% sure he has a canon and a wheel he'll be using.



Skirmishers. 10 man skink skirmishers are lovely to harass rats and their war machines. The poison combines with double tap, you are most likely going to do some good damage prior to your main units getting into combat.
Hmm ok I’ll look into that, Usually I like to go for a big block of skinks with 3 Kroxigor and has usually been one of my more successful units vs TK and Dwarfs But I’m for some reason apprehensive about it vs Skaven. Im certainly looking at a unit of 8 Chameleons.



Cold One Riders are also a viable choice, don't trip over the Stupidity. LD check with cold-blooded has almost never been a problem for me (yes there will be times when you do fail). They can hit hard, especially against the flank of rats or other more resilient units/models.
I’ve been a bit prehensive about using coldones due to their points cost, they seem expensive when you can just buy 3 saurus warriors instead of the one CK. But I’ve wanted to field them for ages so im tempted to try a 5 man unit with Scar vet or old blood.




Magic. Lizardmen are awesome at magic... don't forget to give him pain with it. Like previously said, Fiery Convocation hurts.


As I’ve said I’m prehensive about Slaans I just never have the luck with them and at 25% of the army value for something that may or may not do anything it’s a high risk.




Salamanders, these guys will hurt large units so easily!
Yes need more of these I have one and a razordon…but It’s a friendly club and Ive proxied one as the other before now.




Tehen with the hatred Skaven can really help, but that is a lot of extra points for a slight boost in combat. I cannot sway either way with this one, however, he is a solid character and at LD 8 is still very good.
Yes I hadn’t realised that after his initial cost it was 1point per model after that to add the hatred which has turned me off.






EDIT: Gor-rok is an aweosme must have if you want a large, solid block of Saurus.

Sadly I don’t have the model, but I could try proxing my Chakax as him.

Thanks the good read btw ^^

Captain Collius
13-12-2013, 19:24
Taking the Slaan out of a unit is a bad idea, with things like fying DP's and Disc lords running amok it's a dangerous place to be without a bodyguard.

Yeah i tried thism and gave the frog Fencers blades he still dies quickly.

Neffer
18-12-2013, 22:14
Well in the end i went with unit of 40 SW, 24 TG, 6 camelion skinks, 11 skink skirmishers, 5 cold ones, bastiladon, slann, 2 scar vets one as a bsb other on cold one. 1 skink priest.

Fiery convocation - 1st turn unstopable force roll but it did knock the slann down 2 levels and started burning up a unit of monks with his grey seer and two other spell casters (by end of turn 2 they were all dead).

camelions went down in turn 1 but pulled the gattling guns fire away from the mian force 1 one turn atleast.

Cold ones - this is a gripe I have, I2 they attack last even though they get the charge... I hope they do something to change this in 9th 3 went down on the charge the scar vet put in 2 wounds and the unit they charged had also been flanked by my TG so they broke and i ran them down, tbh I cant see myself fielding them again not for 30 point each and they just go down so easily.

skirmishers did a good job of softening stuff up and taking out one of his gattling guns

bastiladon didnt do alot either, that +1 initiative it gives is....well...nothing special...would be good against undead...I would use it again mind, I was firing his bound spell of every turn and first thing to try and get my opponent to waste dispel dice. and if tied up with that high magic spell that give a d3 + initiative can be nice.

Any way, thanks all for advice. Was my second (2/5) win ^^