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Yersinia Pestis
13-12-2013, 23:41
Hi, i'm thinking about starting a second army with Skaven and would roughly start the collection with some 2500 points....
As there's noone in my friends group who plays this army, i can't really ask for their opinion, so what units and how many of them are good for a starting army that also wants to be a bit competitive?
So far the only thing i've got is a bell and the stuff from the starter set :) The bell i got for 10€ and it's a metal one (yes, i'm a sucker for the old metal models and just couldn't resist, especially given the price....)

moonlapse
14-12-2013, 02:45
Hi, i'm thinking about starting a second army with Skaven and would roughly start the collection with some 2500 points....
As there's noone in my friends group who plays this army, i can't really ask for their opinion, so what units and how many of them are good for a starting army that also wants to be a bit competitive?
So far the only thing i've got is a bell and the stuff from the starter set :) The bell i got for 10 and it's a metal one (yes, i'm a sucker for the old metal models and just couldn't resist, especially given the price....)

Skaven get most of their strength from two things at the moment - lots of very cheap troops, and powerful toys. I think you really need to try to strike a balance with them on both fronts. If you go too heavy on slaves, or too heavy on toys (or, heaven forbid, both), your opponent won't have much fun as you're likely to squash his army into the ground with very little effort, and all he'll get to do is wade through endless chaff hordes. That said, I think most armies would have one reasonably large (40 - 50) unit of slaves. Abominations are very powerful but taking more than one is overkill. Cannons are good - cheap, but notoriously unreliable, as Skaven should be. Plague Monks are awesome with T4 and 3 poisoned attacks each for less than double the cost of a Clanrat. My personal favourite core unit is Stormvermin. The models are great, and they're 'decent fighters' which challenge people's conception of the rank and file troops as being worthless and unable to fight their way out of a wet paper bag. With Skaven I would not take any rank and file unit less than 30 strong - and that's pushing it!

Ben81
15-12-2013, 05:42
I play skaven quite often and have to say the doom wheel always gives
me a headache! It's also highly amusing on the battle field so of you're playing friendly games I'd recommend one! The Abomb is also a must!

MasterSplinter
15-12-2013, 07:00
Skaven get most of their strength from two things at the moment - lots of very cheap troops, and powerful toys. I think you really need to try to strike a balance with them on both fronts. If you go too heavy on slaves, or too heavy on toys (or, heaven forbid, both), your opponent won't have much fun as you're likely to squash his army into the ground with very little effort, and all he'll get to do is wade through endless chaff hordes. That said, I think most armies would have one reasonably large (40 - 50) unit of slaves. Abominations are very powerful but taking more than one is overkill. Cannons are good - cheap, but notoriously unreliable, as Skaven should be. Plague Monks are awesome with T4 and 3 poisoned attacks each for less than double the cost of a Clanrat. My personal favourite core unit is Stormvermin. The models are great, and they're 'decent fighters' which challenge people's conception of the rank and file troops as being worthless and unable to fight their way out of a wet paper bag. With Skaven I would not take any rank and file unit less than 30 strong - and that's pushing it!

Also there is much truth in this statement, you will really need many many clanrats/slave models. Without it a skaven army would not be a skaven army because thats their unique style of play. a good opponent will find a way to deal with it and most times the guys who are complaining about your army are those who field a powerbulid the other way around (in my experience).

So i say the best thing you can get are the bloodisle clanrats off ebay, lots of them.

underscore
15-12-2013, 08:55
Wait. Since when did Plague Monks get poison?

Yersinia Pestis
15-12-2013, 08:59
Thanks for the advice, guys

boli
15-12-2013, 12:19
Wait. Since when did Plague Monks get poison?

Not by default but its pretty much one of the best spell buffs you can use on the unit. Especially if combined with plague banner.

Evil Hypnotist
15-12-2013, 20:58
Warp Lightning Cannon is the bane of my opponents, when it works it is lethal!


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KTR
15-12-2013, 22:06
Although they're pricey (in both points and cash), Warplock Jezzails are terrifying. They will cut through any armoured unit, providing they don't have magic resistance. I agree with all the guys saying to get yourself some clanrats/slaves- They are necessary. The one thing that you can't really avoid with skaven is the need for overwhelming numbers. Finally, a little idea might be to see if you can get yourself a Warlord on a Rat Ogre Bonebreaker. I run one with the enchanted shield, heavy armour and the gem that gives you re-rolls on armour saves from the main rulebook (can't remember its name for the life of me), then slap on some enchanted sword, and you've got a general who can beat stegadons to death with no support- He's a weird build, but give it a go- plus he looks pretty impressive too!

Lord Dan
15-12-2013, 22:15
As you can see from the above posts, there is very little in the book you can go wrong with getting. Instead, focus first on what you need to play: a ton of rats to serve as either clanrats or slaves.

underscore
15-12-2013, 22:38
I wouldn't go that far - pretty much all the non Gutter Runner skirmishers are very underwhelming, Night Runners and Rat Ogres are also a very soft choices, the Plague Catapult rarely performs and even Plague Monks and Stormvermin are kinda meh in a lot of situations, along with Assassins.

Don't they get me wrong, you can make fun little armies with most of the book, but there's a pretty tight core of stuff which really performs.

Lord Dan
15-12-2013, 23:14
Don't they get me wrong, you can make fun little armies with most of the book, but there's a pretty tight core of stuff which really performs.

Fair enough, however on a more pedantic level: Stormvermin can only be considered weak when compared to the absurd point-denying ability of 100-man slave units. A 7-point Stormvermin, compared to a 7 point Empire Halberdier, has +1 WS, +1 Mv, +2 In, +1 AS in combat, and generally +1 Ld.

Yersinia Pestis
16-12-2013, 07:13
From what i've read in the book and here i now know that i'll be investing in one bell, 100 stormvermin or something to put in two blocks, maybe spam slaves like hell (100-150) and two warp lightning cannons. I'm doubting about jezzails, doomwheel, and some other things.... your thoughts?

Lord Dan
16-12-2013, 07:23
A screaming bell, 100 Stormvermin, 150 slaves, and two warp lightening cannons?

I'm not sure you need any more help, dude... :p

Yersinia Pestis
16-12-2013, 07:50
A screaming bell, 100 Stormvermin, 150 slaves, and two warp lightening cannons?

I'm not sure you need any more help, dude... :p

I do! :D
I'm still not up to 2500 points to collect, lol....
And i don't know them rats very well as there are no skaven players in my club.....:mad:

underscore
16-12-2013, 08:04
Fair enough, however on a more pedantic level: Stormvermin can only be considered weak when compared to the absurd point-denying ability of 100-man slave units. A 7-point Stormvermin, compared to a 7 point Empire Halberdier, has +1 WS, +1 Mv, +2 In, +1 AS in combat, and generally +1 Ld.
Oh, they have uses for sure, I use them all the time. Part of the issue I think is that it's tough to really get any kind of reliable buff onto them, Screaming Bell excluded. Vanilla Halberdiers are one thing, but back them up with Priests and Magic and they should do pretty well against what is (in theory) the Skaven's crack troops.

But then one day the moons will align and you get Death Frenzied Stormvermin with poison, all Unbreakable in a Bell unit that rolls 13 on the table...

underscore
16-12-2013, 08:12
I'm doubting about jezzails, doomwheel, and some other things.... your thoughts?
No need to doubt the Doom Wheel! They're a right pain for your opponents to deal with.

boli
16-12-2013, 10:28
I wouldn't go that far - pretty much all the non Gutter Runner skirmishers are very underwhelming, Night Runners and Rat Ogres are also a very soft choices, the Plague Catapult rarely performs and even Plague Monks and Stormvermin are kinda meh in a lot of situations, along with Assassins.

Don't they get me wrong, you can make fun little armies with most of the book, but there's a pretty tight core of stuff which really performs.

Stormvermin for their cost are extremely effective; likewise Plaguemonks are as well. The issue is more that the Skaven Magic and the army itself does not lend itself to "buffing" as much as other armies.

I'm a big fan of the plague catapults tbh; yes it may only be S2 but it uses the large template and no armour saves.

underscore
16-12-2013, 11:15
Yep, just to underline that neither are bad ir anything, they're just not the 'best buys'. Stormvermin are better than most core but aren't going to reliably outperform a lot of opponents and Plague Monks are quite the glass cannon which tend to bank on that one Plague Banner round to make their points worthwhile.

They're both pretty handy Unbreakable, of course and I'm very curious to see whether the Scrolls of Binding book coming
out will give us access to that Dark Wizard character and whether that might give some better infantry support options.

jacob grimes
16-12-2013, 23:03
From what i've read in the book and here i now know that i'll be investing in one bell, 100 stormvermin or something to put in two blocks, maybe spam slaves like hell (100-150) and two warp lightning cannons. I'm doubting about jezzails, doomwheel, and some other things.... your thoughts?

As a long time grey seer myself (approx 9k skaven at last count), I am surprised to see that noone has mentioned the epic cheese that is the 8 or 9 man globadier conga line (1file 9 rank, can fight with the first rank and shoot into the close combat with the other 7/8 which allow no armor saves), or even the amazing nature of poison wind mortars. The castle build can be a pretty terrifying army to have to come to grips with.

Grey seer and bell pushed by stormvermi (or even normal clanrats).

Screened by 2 bodies of 50 slaves with a warpfire thrower in between (flanked by 2 wind globadier congas, for that epic life is cheap rule).

Flanked by 2 decently sized (50-60) clan rat units.

More big bus slave units on the far flanks covering abom/ cannon spam, doom wheels in the middle. Really hard for most enemies to get to grips with your seer on the bell and if most of the slaves except the 2 units in front are bus formation generally all within the 18" IP etc etc.

Lord Dan
17-12-2013, 00:14
SSAD Skaven? Yeah, we've met. I think no one mentioned it because no one wants to see another unbreakable Skaven gunline in the world.

Yersinia Pestis
18-12-2013, 21:55
I still have no answer about jezzails, should i get 'em? (i can do a bargain and get nine for a really cheap price ;) )

underscore
19-12-2013, 07:05
They're not a strong choice due to their low BS making it hard to hit much. What gets hit tends to stay hit as the ammo is pretty tasty.

So they could be good for picking off things like cavalry chaff and anything that needs a bit of punch to get through. So not a best buy or anything, but I still like them.

SSquirrel
22-12-2013, 00:12
If you can get 9 Jezzails cheap, go ahead and snag em. If you are playing mostly for fun w/friends, they will be interested to see a bit more variety in the army. I'm working on a Clan Pestilens army and am going w/catapults over WLC for the theme, but I'm still throwing in a Doomwheel. Starting at 2k, by the end of the league it will be at 3k. I'm debating adding 1 more catapult and 2 more Doomwheels at 3k heh. Plague monks w/Plague Banner are great, especially pushing a Furnace. Gutter Runners yes, Night Runners no. My plan for my Rat Ogres is just to be placeholders in my slaves for 4 models. Plague Censer Bearers have a tendency to hit nicely and then fold w/a gentle breeze. Can always surprise people with 30 Giant Rats and Skweel Gnawtooth heh. L1 Warlock Engineer w/Condenser and you have a portable Lightning turret.

DeadlyChaffinch
22-12-2013, 12:53
Hey, I'm a noob Skaven player but so far my faves are definitely the Doomwheel and Plague Monks. Saying that though sticking death frenzy on a unit of slaves/clanrats is pretty brutal. Also Warp fire throwers are your friend (most of the time).

Rake
24-12-2013, 12:41
The reason nobody mentions conga lines is because they are conga lines. The ultimate perversion of the warhammer ideal from RAI to RAW.

dementian
24-12-2013, 14:04
Lots of good suggestions. I'd like to add in the doom rocket on an engineer way too good. 9 poison sling gutter runners as Warmachine hunters. Hellpit abomb is super strong. I'm not a fan of jezzails personally but if you are going up against some cav armies they can probably make their points back.

As far as actually playing a game you will learn that you general/bsb are insanely important. More so than a lot of other armies. With a ld 7 generally and ranks your slaves are ld 10 without the Gen you are at a 5. Don't let your flanks be disrupted or you lose strength in numbers and are back to 7 at best.

Make sure to check out the Skaven faq it is at like 11 pages because Skaven are crazy

leopard
27-12-2013, 16:23
Suggest trying to play without the general and bsb though, for a few games not as a main tactic. Point being they will get shot out from under you at some point, so it helps to be ready for how the army will change -- also good preparation for larger games where the bubble just isn't enough.

Ditto through odd sized units about, see what works, a way of seeing just how large a unit needs to be in your local meta and still work, no point dropping 50 slaves if 45 will 'do' etc.

Essentially kick the tyres of the army, play with it, proxy stuff to try it, see what works and what works with the way you want to run them

boli
31-12-2013, 15:54
Grey seer and bell pushed by stormvermi (or even normal clanrats).

Screened by 2 bodies of 50 slaves with a warpfire thrower in between (flanked by 2 wind globadier congas, for that epic life is cheap rule).

Flanked by 2 decently sized (50-60) clan rat units.

More big bus slave units on the far flanks covering abom/ cannon spam, doom wheels in the middle. Really hard for most enemies to get to grips with your seer on the bell and if most of the slaves except the 2 units in front are bus formation generally all within the 18" IP etc etc.

The life is cheap rule is great BUT due to FAQ changes the way the rule works means hiding the warpfire thrower in such a way will render it useless.

You cannot START with your slaves under the template e.g. you cannot fire through the unit so your warpfire (move and fire) is actually pretty vulnerable.