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Drumknott
19-12-2013, 21:13
So today I played my first game with my lizardmen army, and during turn 1 (my opponent went first) I lost an ancient stegadon with EOTG, two bastilidons and an Oldblood riding a carnosaur to two Empire steamtanks and two cannons.

Does anyone have any advice on how to deploy so as to protect my monsters, or what I should have in my list to stop those cannons shooting ASAP? I know ripperdactyls are the popular choice but they still won't get into combat on turn one (and I think the models are pretty ugly) Are there any other options?.

Funnily enough my skink skirmishers were my MVP, they killed a unit of knights and held up three griffins for two rounds

Lord Inquisitor
19-12-2013, 21:20
Firstly that was pretty unlucky. In one round? Yikes, that was some shooting there.

1. Don't take monsters. If you take a carnasaur you're going to have to deal with cannons ruining your day.
2. Take more monsters. Fill your army up with stegs and some will get through. Make sure if you take ridden monsters the rider has a charmed shield though, maybe he can live if his mount dies.
3. Use walls, buildings, intervening monsters/monstrous infantry to block some cannonballs.
4. Scouting units, fliers and other war machine hunters.
5. Protective magic that will prevent shooting attacks. E.g. pha's protection, iceshard spam?

Most of these still won't save you from a first turn fusillade though.

Drumknott
19-12-2013, 21:35
I think I might drop the carnosaur altogether, he's very pricey for what you get. I'm contemplating a souped up skink chief on a terradon or ripperdactyl that can get at the cannons quickly over an entire unit of riders, it seems more efficient

SonofMagnus
19-12-2013, 21:46
Well this depends on game size, army comp, and a couple of other things. You do have to just deal with cannons sometimes.

The fact that he runs 2 cannons AND 2 steam tanks.....that's mean. Extremely mean for casual play. After a couple games with my lizards I would consider refusing to play against that (that's just me though, don't take that as advice)

Terradons are a great way around the normal cannons, vanguard move, drop rocks on them, free flyer reform, fire javelins in same turn into the cannoneers. you may very well kill a full 3 man cannon crew doing that (I have quite a few times)

The steam tanks? Honest to God the only way I can see around 2 steam tanks is to list tailor, Funny enough a Carnosaur IF making contact with a steam tank will completely wreck it in no more then 2 turns, but that requires it to get past all the cannon. So the best thing I've got; Take a Slann with lore of Metal. Good bye tanks (hopefully) Or you can even attempt to be more adaptive and take the lizard lore and swap out for lore of metal. But as this guy has knights, griff riders, AND steam tanks? lore of metal may as well be an auto include.

Also how did he manage 4 kills with 4 shots from cannons??? Man must be exceedingly lucky. While cannons ARE accurate, the chance to kill on the shot is fairly low overall. Just based on the variables of firing a cannon. while "aiming" isn't a thing anymore as it may as well be lazer-guided....you still have to roll to fire/Initial shot, roll the bounce, roll to wound, fail any applicable ward save. then D6 the wounds.

Drumknott
19-12-2013, 21:52
He did have some lucky dice rolls. He played another guy after me and misfired every roll in that game :-/

The vanguard and drop rocks turn 1 is a nice idea, I'll have a look at that.

pinktaco
19-12-2013, 21:59
That's just extremely unlucky. You can't count on that happening every time (it really shouldn't). On the other hand he could've also completely flopped every single cannon for that round, it's just random like that, however with 4 cannons it's hard not to lose something.

ANyway at what point were you playing? 3000pts? Because 2 steam tanks and 2 cannons seems like quite a lot.

On Lustria we've compiled a list of ways to deal with cannons and although none of them are bulletproof you can at least do something.

What I'd suggest you to do: put the OB on a CO and in a unit of 5-6 COR and give him armour of destiny. He now have 1+ LOS and 4+ Ward Save so he's now relative safe. Against empire you can give him a GW and dawnstone and just laugh at your opponent once he hit combat.
Try and place the steg at a place where the cannons cannot see it. Use Iceshard Blizzard on as many targets as possible. If you have a priest with heaven and a slann with wandering deliberation you can try and get two of these off. Do it on the tanks. Have at least one unit of cameleon skinks (8-10) target a cannon. Again, none of this is bulletproof, but if you can at least go first you can do something. If you can limit the chance of him blowing up your monsters your opponent have wasted quite a lot of points.

You can also try high magic with the slann. A boosted Walk Between the World will give you 20" movement in the magic phase so a total of 32" can be moved with the stegadon. You can also cast Hand of Glory for more movement in the following turn, but that is less reliable. With high magic you can heal your wounded monsters, so even if they get hit you can heal them back up (booster version = D3). Obviously that doesn't help if they kill your model.

As I said though, 4 cannons is a lot. He can just decide to focus on the big stuff and take it out. If you bring 2 stegs he can somewhat reliably take both out in the first turn if they're positioned bad. It's super annoying that a 120pts cannon can potentially one-shot your 230pts+ monster in the first turn, but sometimes you'll just have to deal with it.

SteveW
19-12-2013, 22:00
So turn one he not only hit, but he hit, wounded, and then did enough wounds to kill 21 wounds of monsters in one turn? With only four shots? I say don't change a thing, the one time in your gaming career that will happen has already taken place and now you're safe forever...lol

ewar
21-12-2013, 00:29
I can't believe no one has mentioned chameleon skinks - some of the best warmachine hunters in the game (though useless against a stank). Keep them quite far back, march and double tap on turn 1 as a unit of 7 or 8 has a decent chance to pop a cannon in one go.

Also, don't be afraid to deploy your monsters completely out of LOS (i.e. behind a building), this might feel counter-intuitive at first as they won't do anything for turns 1 and 2, but at least they're alive and it gives you time to deal with the cannons through shooting and magic. Then they come out to play when the main threat has gone.

Another option is to play a couple of games with zero monsters so those cannons of his are completely wasted, he will probably drop them for volley guns or some such and then you can switch back to bringing the dinosaurs - it'll give you one game to run rampant with them!

SteveW
21-12-2013, 00:56
@Ewar, he said the other guy went first. No amount of poison shots would help if all his stuff dies before he gets to shoot.

Moss
21-12-2013, 03:04
@Ewar, he said the other guy went first. No amount of poison shots would help if all his stuff dies before he gets to shoot.
Right, that's some good general advice though. Are you really expecting someone to come up with a counter to a perfect round of shooting before you can take your turn?

Spiney Norman
21-12-2013, 07:19
So turn one he not only hit, but he hit, wounded, and then did enough wounds to kill 21 wounds of monsters in one turn? With only four shots? I say don't change a thing, the one time in your gaming career that will happen has already taken place and now you're safe forever...lol

Let's face it, its not really that unlikely that four cannons would kill four monsters over the course of 2-3 turns, the Bastiladon only has 4 wounds, those things fall over as soon as a cannon looks at them. The death if the carno-rider is really the only 'lucky shot' of those four because the rider at least should have had a ward save. For a monster on a 100mm deep base the odds of hitting it with any cannon shot are something ridiculous like 75% if you aim at the right point.

Cannons are the hard-counter to monsters, in a game with four cannons vs four monsters don't expect any of the monsters to reach combat, the fact that it happened on T1 rather than by the end of T3 was really just bad luck, but it didn't change the eventual outcome at all.


Right, that's some good general advice though. Are you really expecting someone to come up with a counter to a perfect round of shooting before you can take your turn?

Yes there is, you can house rule a much-needed nerf on cannons or you can refuse to play the jerk that brings 4 of them to the same game.

liddan
21-12-2013, 13:15
What occured is a very unlikely (to put it lightly) scenario. Use the same army a couple more games and see what happens. If you end up with cannon problems every game, considering changing things up.

That's the way cannons are, sometimes they misfire, miss or blow up all game but they are always just some good rolling away from making it all worthwhile.

I've seen your opinions on this topic before Spiney Norman but fact is that even killing a bastiladon with one cannon is less than 50% (since just the multiple wounds d6 part is 50% chance of killing it) so it definitely is a "lucky" shot and the empire player got 4 lucky shots. Cannons do an average of 2.178 wounds per shot if we use your 75% chance of hitting (just for the sake of argument) when you factor in hitting, wounding and the d6 wounds roll.

Spiney Norman
21-12-2013, 13:47
What occured is a very unlikely (to put it lightly) scenario. Use the same army a couple more games and see what happens. If you end up with cannon problems every game, considering changing things up.

That's the way cannons are, sometimes they misfire, miss or blow up all game but they are always just some good rolling away from making it all worthwhile.

I've seen your opinions on this topic before Spiney Norman but fact is that even killing a bastiladon with one cannon is less than 50% (since just the multiple wounds d6 part is 50% chance of killing it) so it definitely is a "lucky" shot and the empire player got 4 lucky shots. Cannons do an average of 2.178 wounds per shot if we use your 75% chance of hitting (just for the sake of argument) when you factor in hitting, wounding and the d6 wounds roll.

Granted, they were lucky shots, you wouldn't normally expect to lose all your dinosaurs in T1, but I would expect to have lost them all by T3 unless luck was really on my side. The fact is that not even your stegs will be charging before T3, by which time the cannons will have taken 8 or 12 shots at your dinosaurs. Even if it does take 3 shots each to bring a steg or carno down you can easily do that before they get anywhere near charge range because you can effectively ignore the Bastiladons in the first couple of turns (being M4).

Also, lets not pretend that misfire is a common occurrence, a destroyed result only happens once in every 18 shots, so with 2 cannons (note that steam tanks cannons effectively ignore their misfire results) you would only expect to lose one through misfire every 9 turns.

Lordy-UK
21-12-2013, 14:02
there is nothing at all you can do vs 4 cannons, just pray for misfires.

Cannons are as everyone knows pretty ridiculous, they have ruined 8th for me.

There is nothing you can do im afraid, other than perhaps put loads of walls on the table or play using comp to stop 4 cannons.

Montegue
21-12-2013, 19:13
there is nothing at all you can do vs 4 cannons, just pray for misfires.

Cannons are as everyone knows pretty ridiculous, they have ruined 8th for me.

There is nothing you can do im afraid, other than perhaps put loads of walls on the table or play using comp to stop 4 cannons.

4 of them is rough. You do have access to the beast anti war machine unit out there. You can screen monsters with monsters, terrain, etc. lore of heavens offers some defense, as well. Target saturation, as mentioned above, can work wonders.

Cannons are an answer to monsters, and you have to be prepared to deal with that answer. Lizards have good tools off that.

Perfectionz
21-12-2013, 21:00
I will say, I have never had problems with cannons. I take 2 Ancient Stegs with horns as the only upgrade. I have 3 units of chameleon skinks that easily take care of cannons(not stanks), and a slann with all the sigs. This has never, not killed 2 cannons on my turn 1, ever. If I think it will be a huge problem for whatever reason, I have a forbidden rod to garuntee some dice in magic.

So, now that I have taken care of the cannons on turn 1, or if I went second, I also have a couple minimum units of skinks with 1 krox each. I use the krox to screen the stegs and BAM! The odds of killing a steg after having to kill a krox is very slim. And if the cannon doesnt kill him I have the lore of life to heal him back up.

My normal games are 3000 points, and I play against ogres and daemons quite often. Seeing 4 cannons of whatever type is not uncommon, which is why I even take the krox. Iceshard blizzard from 2 skink priests and the slann i think effectively get rid of the stank shooting as well, giving my stegs time to charge and decimate them with the horns and wyssans, getting rid of armor saves.

Spiney Norman
21-12-2013, 21:06
4 of them is rough. You do have access to the beast anti war machine unit out there. You can screen monsters with monsters, terrain, etc. lore of heavens offers some defense, as well. Target saturation, as mentioned above, can work wonders.

Cannons are an answer to monsters, and you have to be prepared to deal with that answer. Lizards have good tools off that.

No offense, but when that cannon comes encased in a steam tank all our warmachine hunters are useless against it. About the only answer we have to a stank is a metal Slann, which is somewhat annoying because that's not a choice you'd really make unless you were list tailoring.

If you manage to threaten the Stanks with a Stegadon he's really not using his 4 cannons right...

Perfectionz
21-12-2013, 21:15
No offense, but when that cannon comes encased in a steam tank all our warmachine hunters are useless against it. About the only answer we have to a stank is a metal Slann, which is somewhat annoying because that's not a choice you'd really make unless you were list tailoring.

If you manage to threaten the Stanks with a Stegadon he's really not using his 4 cannons right...

What I meant by my last post, is that the opponent would effectively have 2 cannons. And while a metal slann would be good against him, if you go without list tailoring and take all the sigs, you can spirit leech one to death and still sear the other one with the lore of metal sig. 1 turn of magic is really needed for that. and for some good dispel baiting, go ahead and iceshard them. That way he has to choose whether to lose them or almost not be able to fire them. Provided the not being able to fire would be the one to choose, he has to choose that first making it a harder decision.

The only time your opponent should have 4 cannons is when he goes first and even then only on the first turn. IF you go first instead, you should at least kill 2 fairly easily with the chameleon skinks and the slann. If not also killing a stank, but I wouldnt bet on that one till turn 2. So in the mean time, you shield your monsters with Skroxigor and chuckle inside as your opponent tries to regroup and come up with another way to kill your monsters.

Horus38
21-12-2013, 21:27
As a long time LM player all I have to say is "**** cannons!". Really hoping 9th balances out how stupid these things are right now versus monsters.

Montegue
22-12-2013, 02:30
As a long time LM player all I have to say is "**** cannons!". Really hoping 9th balances out how stupid these things are right now versus monsters.

As a long time dwarf player all I have to say is "**** monsters". Really hoping 9th balances them out how stupid these things are right now versus everything I can field.

The bearded one
22-12-2013, 03:33
I have a dwarf BSB who likes punching monsters in the face. He's pretty good at it. At one point I held a counter in my signature of what monsters he killed, but it became too many to count.

If there is enough large terrain on the field to keep the monsters behind in the first turn, you can use the lizardmen's plentiful supply of warmachine hunters to kill the cannons, and use the carnosaur, stegadon, scar veterans and the lore of metal to put a dent in steamtanks.

If there's no terrain to hide behind.. Well, yeah, you're kinda screwed in that situation. 4 cannons taking out 4 monsters in one turn is a bit lucky, but it's certainly not way too far above expectations. With that many cannons I'd expect at least two monsters to bite the dust in an average volley.

SteveW
22-12-2013, 05:56
When I play dwarf I lose far less of my monsters to cannon than Great weapons.

Drumknott
22-12-2013, 13:38
Thanks for the input guys. I'll play another few games and see how I get on before changing the list. This guy is known for running hard lists, I'll play some of the other guys at my FLGS and see hows the lizards do against other armies :)

Spiney Norman
22-12-2013, 16:46
When I play dwarf I lose far less of my monsters to cannon than Great weapons.

There are a number of ways to solve this problem,
1. Don't charge your monster in against units wielding great weapons, send your Saurus to do it instead, they will enjoy striking first for once.
2. If you really have to engage a GW unit with a monster only ever put your monsters into a flank, the number of attacks they will take will be too few to kill them, but make sure you support with something else (probably Saurus) because all that will happen is your opponent will pass his stubborn break test and then combat reform to face you and tear you to bits.

SteveW
23-12-2013, 00:47
There are a number of ways to solve this problem,
1. Don't charge your monster in against units wielding great weapons, send your Saurus to do it instead, they will enjoy striking first for once.
2. If you really have to engage a GW unit with a monster only ever put your monsters into a flank, the number of attacks they will take will be too few to kill them, but make sure you support with something else (probably Saurus) because all that will happen is your opponent will pass his stubborn break test and then combat reform to face you and tear you to bits.

Good advice, and that would be easy to do if there were any units in a dwarf army without great weapons...lol Seriously, in my last game I thought "no way this depleted unit of quarlers will take down my steg" then I took an arrow to the knee.

thesoundofmusica
23-12-2013, 12:34
Spiney your cannon hate is really over the top. Four cannons killing 4 unharmed monsters in turn a single turn of shooting? We're looking at something like 0,1% chance. "Not that unlikely". Hilarious.

I've seen you comment on peoples warhammer experiences with remarks like "you really think X? This discussion is over" yet you spout your misinformed cannon math in every thread possible. Stop it already.

You dont like cannons we get it. At a certain point people just cant be arsed arguing because you never give in even though its a matter of opinion. You just cant accept people having one that doesnt match yours it seems.

Luigi
24-12-2013, 16:06
The advice i feel you giving, but feel giving to anybody is:
Use terrain. I don't know how much there was on the game table but it was not enough (:P)
Also roll for scenarios, this will make artillery far less powerful and reliable, since the fielding player will lack the certainty of it being where he needs it at the right moment.


in my last game I thought "no way this depleted unit of quarlers will take down my steg" then I took an arrow to the knee.

Excellent joke btw, probably one of the few good arrow to the knee joke :D

RecklessAbandon
24-12-2013, 17:08
If someone puts 4 canon on the table, just walk to another table and play someone else.

SteveW
24-12-2013, 17:11
If someone puts 4 canon on the table, just walk to another table and play someone else.

4 cannon are not the end of the world. I actually have more fun against them than playing an all chariot WoC army or 7th ed Unkillable dreadlord.

Spiney Norman
28-12-2013, 07:41
Spiney your cannon hate is really over the top. Four cannons killing 4 unharmed monsters in turn a single turn of shooting? We're looking at something like 0,1% chance. "Not that unlikely". Hilarious.

I've seen you comment on peoples warhammer experiences with remarks like "you really think X? This discussion is over" yet you spout your misinformed cannon math in every thread possible. Stop it already.

You dont like cannons we get it. At a certain point people just cant be arsed arguing because you never give in even though its a matter of opinion. You just cant accept people having one that doesnt match yours it seems.

Cannons are a major unbalancing factor in the game, especially when fielded in multiples. Yes 4 cannons all one-shotting 4 different monster in thhe same turn is unlikely, but 4 cannons bringing down four monsters over two or three turns is a virtual certainty, and not many monsters can cross 24" of table and charge before that happens.

Even dwarf players don't have it as bad as they like to pretend, when you're facing a dwarf army you generally have to choose between scooting across the table as fast as you can and barreling into an unfavourable combat situation against a block of GW warriors or standing around in the open for another turn to catch another 3 cannon balls in the face. I've played against a number of well designed, and well used dwarf armies, GW warriors are great value for what they do and cannot be easily dealt with by anything, max cannons is a crutch which no army needs to deal with anything.

The bearded one
28-12-2013, 17:43
Dwarfs have it quite well in close combat, in fact. Yesterday I fought three quick games against 1000pts empire, and my BSB with rune of might beat the bejeezus out of the steamtank three times.

rocdocta
30-12-2013, 06:39
if you are tailoring lists then I would take the following;

slann, lore of death or fire

skink priest with feathers

its obvious but the skink flies up close to the cannons if they are grouped together. slann casts sniper spells through skink and with ld of +1 should kill a cannon, then zaps the other cannon.

vs mr steam tanks don't mess around. charge it with skirmishes if you can remain in a forest for steadfast. charge it with anything to remove his impact hits and stopping the cannon from firing.

or this is where the cowboys come into their own.

2 cowboys with GWs vs a stank.
4 CO attacks = 2 hit no wounds
8 attacks = 5.33 hit +1 more PF attack = 6 hit
wound on 3s = 3 wounds
armour save now 4+ = 1.5 wounds done

Stank
say it had put 3 steam points into grinding = 3D3 S6 hits or 6 hits
4 wounds done
armour saves now 5+ and 4++ ward so 1.5 wounds done.

this should buy time for the stegs to get up there and punch through the stank. the cowboys will die but at least the stegs will make it. watch out for redirectors.

or you could do what I do and take 3 ancients, 3 baby stegs and 2 bassie in 2500 points.

4 cannon is a bad day for you but it can be beaten. it just takes some unlucky misfire/wound rolls for him.

Armond
31-12-2013, 07:59
I would say play again and throw a couple or three units of chameleon skinks in there. Sized 6-8. That first turn devastation of ALL your monsters is probably unlikely again. My buddy plays empire, but he isn't too hung up on playing multiple cannons.

8th did some funny stuff with terrain. I wish that it was back to not being able to draw LOS if a unit is on the other side of the forest and you were not in it. I miss that rule. Not saying it would be the fix, but I just liked the way that rule played in 6th/7th.

Good luck!

GrandmasterWang
07-01-2014, 02:44
You were insanely unlucky. Just real bad luck on your part. It happens.. like my ld10 stubborn hammerer block running away despite bsb. Just pick yourself up and try again.

Id wager the odds of what failing a ld10 break test with a reroll are higher than what you went through.

I cant believe some people saying "its not that unlikely". lol

4 monsters killed by 4 cannons in 1 turn... craziness.

Assuming 4 direct cannon hits (which is very unlikely already) there was a 67 % of him failing to wound all the monsters so the dice gods certainly smiled upon your friend.

With 4 cannons there is also a 67% chance at least 1 should have misfired so 4 perfect cannon shots is something you should remember for years to come!

"Remember that time you killed 4 of my beasts with 4 cannon shots"

Memorable moment. Wont happen again.

godswearhats
07-01-2014, 20:57
I was curious about the odds of this happening, so I tried to work them out as best I could. Assuming no intervening units or terrain and placing the cannonball 8" away from the target (which seems to be the standard) and that the amount of miniature facing the cannon is at least 2" ...

To hit: 1 in 6 chance of misfire, 2 in 6 chance to land right on the monster (roll of 8 or 10), 3 in 6 chance to land short of the monster (roll of 2, 4 or 6).
Chance to bounce into monster in the case of landing short ...
... if a 2 was rolled: 1 in 6 chance of not bouncing, 2 in 6 chance of not bouncing enough (roll of 2 or 4), 3 in 6 chance of bouncing into or through the monster (6, 8 or 10).
... if a 4 was rolled: 1 in 6 chance of not bouncing, 1 in 6 chance of not bouncing enough (roll of 2), 4 in 6 chance of bouncing into the monster (everything else)
... if a 6 was rolled: 1 in 6 chance of not bouncing (everything else bounces into monster).

The odds to hit are 24 in 36, which is 2 in 3 (this is good to know - still more accurate than pretty much anything else in the game, but by no means the auto-hit it sometimes seems!)

Now the odds to wound and kill, assuming you've hit:
... a Bastiladon: 5 in 6 chance to wound, and 3 in 6 chance to kill (5/12 chance to kill)
... an ancient Stegadon: 5 in 6 chance to wound, 2 in 6 chance to kill (5/18 chance to kill), with a 1 in 6 chance to save due to Engine of the Gods (reducing it to 25/108 overall)
... a Carnosaur ... : 5 in 6 chance to wound, 2 in 6 chance to kill (5/18 chance to kill)
... ... and its rider: 5 in 6 chance to wound, 4 in 6 chance to kill (5/9 chance to kill) assuming rider has no ward save.

Adding that all up, it's 5/18 to one-shot kill a Bastiladon (~27%), 50/324 (~15%) for the Ancient Steg with Engine of the Gods, 50/486 (~10%) to kill a Carnosaur and rider (with no ward). For the scenario in question to happen (first turn kill 2 Bastiladons, 1 Ancient Steg with EotG and 1 Carnosaur and Rider), the odds are 12500 / 2834352, which is a 0.44% chance of happening.

0.44%!

So, while it sucks, the chances of it happening again exactly like that are remote :-)

(Please feel free to point out any errors in my math)

GrandmasterWang
08-01-2014, 03:20
Shows how crazy some of the cannon haters are. Those cannon balls be frying their brains yo!!

Good mathhammering.. seems solid at a quick glance.

Im going to have a hard time taking those who said it wasn't that unlikely seriously in the future.

GrandmasterWang
08-01-2014, 03:20
Shows how crazy some of the cannon haters are. Those cannon balls be frying their brains yo!!

Good mathhammering.. seems solid at a quick glance.

Im going to have a hard time taking those who said it wasn't that unlikely seriously in the future.

rocdocta
08-01-2014, 04:24
Havent checked Godswearhats math hammer but lets say its solid. one cannon is not a problem. I face empire with either 2 cannon 12 demis and 2 stank or 3 cannon 8 demis and 2 stank. Those 4 or 5 cannon target the 1 or 2 threats to their 1+ save army and kill them round 1.

Lets not forget that the cannon don't hit a target and stop there. flanking cannon may be able to hit multiple units. Sure you need to kill the monster to continue but the first cannon wounds then the second cannon kills and wounds anything nearby then the third cannon etc etc.

I think people on the receiving end get annoyed that in reality its pretty hard to miss with a shot. 10 inches from the back of the target...means a 50% chance of hitting a chariot base directly. but even if it moves forwards 2 inches then you still have 2/3 chance of bouncing though. Anything barring an obstacle. no woods, no skirmishing -1, no long range. a cannon shooting a skirmisher at long range, behind hard cover would need something like BS9 or 10 to get anything like its current to hit chance.

You know cannon are upsetting the game when 2 people with non optimised lists turn up for a game and both say oh good neither have cannon. should be fun.

Lord Dan
08-01-2014, 05:09
Are there any other options?

Stop playing against players who run a pair of Steam Tanks on top of two cannons.

Or just anyone who runs two Steam Tanks.

rocdocta
08-01-2014, 07:44
Stop playing against players who run a pair of Steam Tanks on top of two cannons.

Or just anyone who runs two Steam Tanks.

I am on the verge of doing this. its just no fun to play against.

thesoundofmusica
08-01-2014, 17:05
@ Godswearhats

I think you only accounted for a single bastiladon killed in your final calculation. Assuming everything else is ok.
Shouldnt it be 62500/51018366=0.0012
0,12% chance. Once in one thousand games roughly.

Spiney Norman
10-01-2014, 14:08
Shows how crazy some of the cannon haters are. Those cannon balls be frying their brains yo!!

Good mathhammering.. seems solid at a quick glance.

Im going to have a hard time taking those who said it wasn't that unlikely seriously in the future.

It doesn't at all mean 'cannon haters' are crazy
No one is disputing that the odds of losing 2 Bastiladons, an ancient steg and a carnosaur lord on T1 are incredibly rare, but consider the following situation

First turn
One cannon shoots at the carnosaur, hits it does 3 wounds to the carnosaur and kills The Lord (who for whatever reason doesn't seem to have a ward).

Second cannon shoots and again hits the carnosaur, doing another three wounds which kills it

Third cannon (steam tank) shoots at the steg but misfires and loses a wound (because for some reason steam tanks just ignore misfires)

Fourth cannon (Second steam tank) shoots at the stegadon and misses

Turn two
First cannon shoots at the steg and hits, does 4 wounds
Second cannon misfires and blows itself up
Third cannon shoots at the steg, hits, does two wounds and kills it
Fourth cannon shoots at a Bastiladon, hits, does 5 wounds and kills it

Turn three
First cannon shoots at the last Bastiladon and misses
Second cannon shoots at the last Bastiladon hits and does only 3 wounds
Third cannon shoots and kills the Bastiladon

Not such an unlikely scenario perhaps? But you still lose all your monsters before they make any contribution to the game.

That is why cannons suck, over 1000pts worth of models wiped out before they can cross the table.

liddan
10-01-2014, 14:45
It doesn't at all mean 'cannon haters' are crazy
No one is disputing that the odds of losing 2 Bastiladons, an ancient steg and a carnosaur lord on T1 are incredibly rare, but consider the following situation

First turn
One cannon shoots at the carnosaur, hits it does 3 wounds to the carnosaur and kills The Lord (who for whatever reason doesn't seem to have a ward).

Second cannon shoots and again hits the carnosaur, doing another three wounds which kills it

Third cannon (steam tank) shoots at the steg but misfires and loses a wound (because for some reason steam tanks just ignore misfires)

Fourth cannon (Second steam tank) shoots at the stegadon and misses

Turn two
First cannon shoots at the steg and hits, does 4 wounds
Second cannon misfires and blows itself up
Third cannon shoots at the steg, hits, does two wounds and kills it
Fourth cannon shoots at a Bastiladon, hits, does 5 wounds and kills it

Turn three
First cannon shoots at the last Bastiladon and misses
Second cannon shoots at the last Bastiladon hits and does only 3 wounds
Third cannon shoots and kills the Bastiladon

Not such an unlikely scenario perhaps? But you still lose all your monsters before they make any contribution to the game.

That is why cannons suck, over 1000pts worth of models wiped out before they can cross the table.

This is still with the empire player rolling way above average. No 1 wound shots , no fails to wound, no steam boiler mishaps and two missed cannon ball out of 11. 11 shots should have about 2 fails to wound on average if you want to present a realistically average scenario.

You example is just made up stuff, it has nothing to do with reality. If you can back up your claim with some math I'd be very surprised and impressed. It is also predicated on the empire player getting first turn and you not killing a single cannon the first two turns.

Again, I agree that they are too random and should be distributed between rider and mount but you keep claiming that they are op without producing any rational argument for it.

Spiney Norman
10-01-2014, 16:46
This is still with the empire player rolling way above average. No 1 wound shots , no fails to wound, no steam boiler mishaps and two missed cannon ball out of 11. 11 shots should have about 2 fails to wound on average if you want to present a realistically average scenario.

You example is just made up stuff, it has nothing to do with reality. If you can back up your claim with some math I'd be very surprised and impressed. It is also predicated on the empire player getting first turn and you not killing a single cannon the first two turns.

Again, I agree that they are too random and should be distributed between rider and mount but you keep claiming that they are op without producing any rational argument for it.

Sorry I wasn't clear, the last cannon shot I listed does only 1 wound, I just missed out the figure because it was enough to kill the Bastiladon. Youre correct that I just made those numbers up, but they do cover the full statistical range of probabilities, if anything I was a little pessimistic as I intentionally left out the possibility of rolling 6 to wound (which would obviously outright kill any monster in the Lizardmen army), and if you run the numbers on the wound roll numbers I chose shake out at slightly less than the average wound roll you would expect.

You're statistically less likely to miss a monster on a chariot base (without misfiring) than you are to misfire, about half as likely to miss complete just on the dice in fact...

Your chance of misfiring is 1/6, your chance of missing a 4" target area (based on a 100x50mm monster base, which is what all Lizardmen monsters use) when you haven't misfired is about 1/12. If you aim 10" from the back of the targets base a total of 6 on both dice will hit the front and an overshoot is impossible, that is why 10" from the back is the optimum shot placement.

So from 3 turns of shooting you have a maximum of 12 shots, of which statistically two will be misfires and one will be a regular miss. I decided to use the worst possible misfire result as I wasn't going to run a large enough sample to demonstrate the full range.

liddan
10-01-2014, 20:32
Sorry I wasn't clear, the last cannon shot I listed does only 1 wound, I just missed out the figure because it was enough to kill the Bastiladon. Youre correct that I just made those numbers up, but they do cover the full statistical range of probabilities, if anything I was a little pessimistic as I intentionally left out the possibility of rolling 6 to wound (which would obviously outright kill any monster in the Lizardmen army), and if you run the numbers on the wound roll numbers I chose shake out at slightly less than the average wound roll you would expect.

You're statistically less likely to miss a monster on a chariot base (without misfiring) than you are to misfire, about half as likely to miss complete just on the dice in fact...

Your chance of misfiring is 1/6, your chance of missing a 4" target area (based on a 100x50mm monster base, which is what all Lizardmen monsters use) when you haven't misfired is about 1/12. If you aim 10" from the back of the targets base a total of 6 on both dice will hit the front and an overshoot is impossible, that is why 10" from the back is the optimum shot placement.

So from 3 turns of shooting you have a maximum of 12 shots, of which statistically two will be misfires and one will be a regular miss. I decided to use the worst possible misfire result as I wasn't going to run a large enough sample to demonstrate the full range.

You have to take into account the overkill aswell, "using" the one wound hit to finish off a model with one wound isn't mathematically correct. You might aswell hit the stegadon with a cannon ball doing first one wound, then three wounds then six wounds and it will have taken you three shots to do five wounds. You have to use averages or do the same scenario with random results over many times if you want to prove something, not just make scenarios up willy nilly.

You do know you can put your monsters sideways, right? I know it's kind of gamey but vs a two steam tank empire player I wouldn't worry about it really :) With 50mm to hit you need to go 6, 8 or 10 inch to hit it if you aim 10 inches from the back. 2-2, 2-misfire, 4-misfire will not do that so that's 3 out of 30 possible outcomes (6x6 = 36 from the beginning, rolling a misfire on first dice not taken into account). So you have 9 out of 36 to failing to hit the target, that's 25% and 2/3rds of those will force you to roll on misfire.

So on average 1 x 0.75 x 0.83 x 3.5 = 2.17875 wounds per turn per cannon if you do [amount of shots]x[chance to hit]x[chance to wound]x[average amount of wounds]. And that is against stuff without ward or regeneration and when you roll for your misfires it will of course be reduced even further.

And you're counting three turns of completely free shooting. Unless you're going first and you're playing a really bad lizardman player, that is never going to be the case.

I don't think I can convince you that cannons aren't as good as you perceive them if you actually do the math behind it so I don't know if there's much point in going on.

thesoundofmusica
10-01-2014, 22:06
Well Spiney is doing exactly what he's accusing others of doing in "the other cannon thread", using units in a vaccum to make a point as it suits him. "What Gradek is doing..." I remember reading. And now you're doing the same thing Spiney, in your examples the enemy never has cannon hunters and cannons always get to fire at their target etc. I think across the 3 or more threads about cannons we've had the last month its all been said.
Cannon haters just dont think cannons are fun. Thats a valid opinion.

Spiney Norman
10-01-2014, 23:50
Well Spiney is doing exactly what he's accusing others of doing in "the other cannon thread", using units in a vaccum to make a point as it suits him. "What Gradek is doing..." I remember reading. And now you're doing the same thing Spiney, in your examples the enemy never has cannon hunters and cannons always get to fire at their target etc. I think across the 3 or more threads about cannons we've had the last month its all been said.
Cannon haters just dont think cannons are fun. Thats a valid opinion.
WM hunters are one concern I didn't deal with, but realistically few hunter units are going to be able to charge before T3 (ripperdactyls might manage it on T2 I guess) and by then the cannons have usually had their fun.

In any case, I'm not sure I am a cannon 'hater' really, I suppose I do wish they were less of a 'no-brainer' option, really quite cheap for the damage they cause and no real downsides aside from a potential misfire which isn't a risk to anything but themselves. I often have a single great cannon when I use my empire army, but bringing 4 is just downright abusive, not to mention unnecessary.

thesoundofmusica
11-01-2014, 00:37
WM hunters are one concern I didn't deal with, but realistically few hunter units are going to be able to charge before T3 (ripperdactyls might manage it on T2 I guess) and by then the cannons have usually had their fun.

In any case, I'm not sure I am a cannon 'hater' really, I suppose I do wish they were less of a 'no-brainer' option, really quite cheap for the damage they cause and no real downsides aside from a potential misfire which isn't a risk to anything but themselves. I often have a single great cannon when I use my empire army, but bringing 4 is just downright abusive, not to mention unnecessary.

I was just poking fun even if the tone came off as harsh. Sure 4 or 5 cannons does sound excessive. I think there are more WM hunters with fly and/or scout, but really cant be bothered looking it up at this hour =P

liddan
11-01-2014, 00:59
WM hunters are one concern I didn't deal with, but realistically few hunter units are going to be able to charge before T3 (ripperdactyls might manage it on T2 I guess) and by then the cannons have usually had their fun.

Ripperdactyls sounds pretty good or a skink chief on a ripperdactyl. He is quite resilient against bs-shooting with just some mundane gear if the empire player wants to waste points on that. If you can charge on turn two then the cannons have one or two turns of shooting only. I like the chief since cannons are sometimes placed between units so that there aren't enough room for 3 x 40mm bases. He should have absolutely no problem killing three crew in one turn. There are also chameleon skinks.

To be productive with what the topic is actually about I highly suggest lizardmen players that use alot of monsters to take high magic for apotheosis and/or life magic for lifebloom (lore attribute) and regrowth.

Montegue
11-01-2014, 04:12
In my game today against my friend's orc and goblin list, I hit his Arachnarok 4 times with a cannon (wounded successfully every time) before it finally died. Dice are funny.

Spiney Norman
11-01-2014, 21:39
In my game today against my friend's orc and goblin list, I hit his Arachnarok 4 times with a cannon (wounded successfully every time) before it finally died. Dice are funny.

In fairness the Arachnarok is one of the more resilient monsters out there against cannons due to its outrageously huge number of wounds. Its funny how cannons totally turn the things that usually make models resilient on their heads, even the toughest model I'm the game (sphinx) is still wounded on a 2+ and all armour saves are negated, even regen doesn't work against dwarf/daemon cannons so piling on extra wounds is about the only way to keep monsters alive.



To be productive with what the topic is actually about I highly suggest lizardmen players that use alot of monsters to take high magic for apotheosis and/or life magic for lifebloom (lore attribute) and regrowth.

Good advice in one sense, but its a very big game before I can bring my carnosaur lord and a life/high Slann.

Fat_Bloke
26-02-2014, 18:05
Hi guys, I am pretty sure I am the Empire player the OP played against. First thing to say is that this was my first game of Fantasy since 6th Ed and I did not have enough stuff to hit the points requirement of 2500. Someone in the store gave me a chariot base to use as a second stank so I could get up to the points, I have not played with 2 of them since and I am pretty sure I won't again unless in a very competitive environment.

I think the biggest problem with cannons as they stand is that they have a massive variance in performance. The idea that a lot of "the internet" has about them being reliable just does not bear out in their usage. I find that there are as many, if not more, games where they take lots of things off or explode and do nothing. There are very few games where they feel like they perform to an average, this is just as frustrating as for the player with them as without them, especially if the rest of the army doesn't have access to alternate answers for certain units.

Honestly, in my experience most of the people who hate cannons either selectively forget the games where they do nothing or are running lists that just match up badly against cannons. If you build an list that revolves entirely around monsters then you are building an extreme list, you will stomp a lot of people without trying and sometimes you will get your toys taken off by armies with the ability to deal with the monster spam. It is the same as building an army full of 1+ saves and then running onto multiple Metal casters, the problem is with the list design. If you don't want the match up to be so extreme then try building a more balanced list.

I hope that in the new edition they do find a way to make cannons more reliable but with less potential raw power. In the meantime I am actually taking a break to write this from assembling a Lizardmen army myself! Hopefully I can get my first game with them in tomorrow; I will report back if I get cannoned off in the first turn. :P

ewar
27-02-2014, 23:31
Honestly, in my experience most of the people who hate cannons either selectively forget the games where they do nothing or are running lists that just match up badly against cannons. If you build an list that revolves entirely around monsters then you are building an extreme list, you will stomp a lot of people without trying and sometimes you will get your toys taken off by armies with the ability to deal with the monster spam. It is the same as building an army full of 1+ saves and then running onto multiple Metal casters, the problem is with the list design. If you don't want the match up to be so extreme then try building a more balanced list.


The problem is that cannons have an effect opposite to the one you describe - the only realistic way to run monsters is to run lots of them. Few people bring just one or two because they are easy fodder for strong ranged attacks like cannons - if I bring monsters I bring an army of monsters so that if I lose two I still have a decent number make it into combat. I would ideally like to bring a mixed arms approach with a couple of monsters as support - but this is entirely wasted against cannon-toting lists.

I agree with you that cannons are too variable, but it's the way GW likes it so don't expect any change. They find any game mechanic of 'variable + constant modifier' to be anathema generally.

Horus38
28-02-2014, 00:25
The problem is that cannons have an effect opposite to the one you describe - the only realistic way to run monsters is to run lots of them. Few people bring just one or two because they are easy fodder for strong ranged attacks like cannons - if I bring monsters I bring an army of monsters so that if I lose two I still have a decent number make it into combat. I would ideally like to bring a mixed arms approach with a couple of monsters as support - but this is entirely wasted against cannon-toting lists.

I agree with you that cannons are too variable, but it's the way GW likes it so don't expect any change. They find any game mechanic of 'variable + constant modifier' to be anathema generally.

^ this. Bringing a couple monster (or singular *shudder*) against cannons is a horrible thing, so you're really left with either none or a ton.

Fat_Bloke
28-02-2014, 02:47
I see what you guys are saying but I think we are approaching the issue from different sides. If you have a weakness to something, as a monster does to a cannon, then by maximising the units that have that weakness you maximise the overall list's weakness to that source, hence why I described it as an extreme approach. If you have only a small part of your list with that vulnerability you mitigate your opponents ability to leverage that advantage.

It is certainly true that if your objective is to run a monster heavy list then running into the counter to the vast majority of that list will be a bad match up for you. This is the nature of the game, the more extreme a list the more vulnerable it is to its specific counters. In much the same way, a pure infantry list will really struggle with a heavy monster list as will an armoured list against multiple metal casters.

I can understand that the artillery heavy nature of the current meta makes it a pain if you like running a monster heavy list but the fact that extreme lists are countered harder by the units meant to counter their core components is no bad thing for the game as a whole. It is also worth pointing out that the meta may well shift, again, away from the current predominance of artillery. I played my first game with the Lizards this evening, I had only one monster and my opponent had 4 bolt throwers. I realised the threat and played accordingly, prioritising the war machines until I could hide in a nice grindy combat and healed my steg back up with magic. With the steg hidden away he was left with a bunch of bolt throwers that I refused to give good target to. Now, it is true that my opponent could have rolled really hot and just shot the steg off in the first round but because my list wasn't too loaded down in one area it would not have been a massive issue as the bolt throwers still would not have had great targets.

If you like running monsters that is one thing but to intimate that there is a balance issue when you cannot load down a list by spamming one unit type (because the counters counter it) seems misguided to me.

Spiney Norman
28-02-2014, 15:48
So today I played my first game with my lizardmen army, and during turn 1 (my opponent went first) I lost an ancient stegadon with EOTG, two bastilidons and an Oldblood riding a carnosaur to two Empire steamtanks and two cannons.

Does anyone have any advice on how to deploy so as to protect my monsters, or what I should have in my list to stop those cannons shooting ASAP? I know ripperdactyls are the popular choice but they still won't get into combat on turn one (and I think the models are pretty ugly) Are there any other options?.

Funnily enough my skink skirmishers were my MVP, they killed a unit of knights and held up three griffins for two rounds

Firstly, you were hugely unlucky, Bastilodons are fragile, but losing a carnosaur and a Stegadon on the first turn is really, really rough.

Secondly try asking your friend to be a bit less of a douche, the very fact that he brought 4 cannons with him tells me he's not the kind of player I would generally waste an afternoon on.

Now we turn to the matter in hand, unfortunately there aren't many ways of mitigating cannons at all, that's why they are so dominating, but there are a few small tricks that can help pull your monstrous irons out of the fire.

1. Walls and barriers, if you have any in your terrain collection try scattering them across the table, then move your monster into contact with the wall with the wall between him and the cannon. If the cannonball hits the ground and bounces through the wall then according to the game rules the wall is destroyed but the ball travels no further. Of course he could potentially land the ball exactly on the base, but it does greatly reduce his target area.

2. Buildings
A favourite trick of mine is to move your monster up tight behind a building like a watch tower or chapel, if your monster is completely out of LoS it cannot be targeted, granted its not something you have much control over (the terrain set up I mean), but like. I said the are no foolproof ways of dealing with cannons.

3. Direct assault
There are various ways to do this, in the case of the steam tank a metal lore Slann is often a useful option, a single good casting of searing doom will put a tank at serious risk of overheating its boiler, the golden hounds spell works the same way.

Against regular warmachines (i.e. not those mounted on tanks or chariots) you can jump some chameleons out of the undergrowth and spit poisoned death at the armourless warmachine, or you can run some ripperdactyls down their throat.

The problem with all these tricks is the earliest you can pull them is T1 (which is sometimes after your opponents T1), and in the case of the rippers, not usually earlier than T2 (by which time your opponent may have had 2 shoot phases with them).

biccat
28-02-2014, 16:10
I played against a lizardman army with 4 monsters last week. I had two cannons and a steam tank. I also had an HBVG.

Turn 1: one cannon misfired, the steam tank rolled short, and the other cannon did 1 wound to a stegadon. The HBVG was out of range.

Turn 2: one cannon was destroyed by skinks, the steam cannon had taken 4 wounds (Searing Doom) but killed the wounded stegadon, the other cannon failed to wound. HBVG did 2 wounds to a Carnosaur.

Turn 3: HBVG and the remaining cannon were dead (Carnosaur & Skinks, respectively), Steam Tank busy careening into monsters fighting my halberds, who were mercilessly stomping state troops into the ground.

Turn 4: Steam tank charged and killed by Carnosaur.

Despite my "broken" cannons, once the monsters got to my lines there was nothing I could do.

I did have Demigryphs and ICK, but they got redirected by skinks and bogged down in Saurus.

Bergen Beerbelly
28-02-2014, 17:35
I have had many discussions of this nature with my local Lizardman player. He insists that cannons are broken vs Lizardmen and he just doesn't see the other side of the coin, ever.

Yes, cannons will kill a Stegadon, or a Carnosaur, or whatever other monster you bring. We know from the maths that it doesn't always automatically do enough damage to kill those things in one shot but eventually Cannon will bring those monsters down.

So what about the flip side of the coin? What happens when a Carnosaur or a Stegadon does make it across the board? Say I shot at it and rolled misfires, or missed altogether? What happens to the opponent of the lizardmen when those monsters DO make it into combat? Does the fight become a fair closely matched grind where my unit could either win or lose depending on how many men the monsters can kill?

Or is it more likely that the Carnosaur or Stegadon will flat out kill whatever unit they make it into combat with? And then they will continue to kill more units until the game is over because nothing else is left that can really fight them reliably?

From talking with my local Lizardman player it is evident that the Carnosaur will pretty much duff over the unit it contacts, and there won't be many units that can survive it.

What makes me irritated about this is he seems to have this idea that just because he spent the points on his Carnosaur that it should have free reign to cross the table unscathed and destroy whatever he points it at. Like it is some sort of entitlement or something. Yet, for whatever reason, when I bring two Dwarf Cannons and kill the Carnosaur before it gets to combat, all of a sudden my Cannons are way broken because they don't allow him to just duff over my Dwarfs at will.

And I completely disagree with him that they are broken because of what his monsters are capable of once they reach the enemy lines. And contrary to a lot of the BS I read on the internet, in actual play Monsters reach Dwarf lines quite often.

dms505
28-02-2014, 20:06
If i'm going against more than 2 cannons I rush my stegs forward in front of a big infantry unit. I don't care if I allow a charge and lose my impact hits because if I lose the Steg impacts hits do nothing. They are stubborn so who cares in they outrank you. The steg becomes a roadblock and his cannons big useless lumps of lead until your skinks come around the back to pew-pew them. Just get them into combat before round 3 and you'll probably not lose more than 1 or 2. 4 monsters in 1 turn is just stupid bad luck.

Also remember the idea that the cannon has to see the spot on the ground he wants to target. If you have a large group or something blocking his view of the actual true spot on the table where he says he is firing he cannot fire there. For instance a large block of Saurus 4 inches deep 3 inches in front of a Steg could probably stop him from targeting the spot he needs to target to hit the Steg. Or even a short hill, take a laser pointer and if it's debatable have them show you the true LoS to that spot. It may seem cheesy but honestly I see it as them doing the cheating if they don't follow the rules.

Another way is turn them sideways. You then make it a little less easy to hit them because they only have about a 2 inch target.

SteveW
28-02-2014, 22:24
I played against a lizardman army with 4 monsters last week. I had two cannons and a steam tank. I also had an HBVG.

Turn 1: one cannon misfired, the steam tank rolled short, and the other cannon did 1 wound to a stegadon. The HBVG was out of range.

Turn 2: one cannon was destroyed by skinks, the steam cannon had taken 4 wounds (Searing Doom) but killed the wounded stegadon, the other cannon failed to wound. HBVG did 2 wounds to a Carnosaur.

Turn 3: HBVG and the remaining cannon were dead (Carnosaur & Skinks, respectively), Steam Tank busy careening into monsters fighting my halberds, who were mercilessly stomping state troops into the ground.

Turn 4: Steam tank charged and killed by Carnosaur.

Despite my "broken" cannons, once the monsters got to my lines there was nothing I could do.

I did have Demigryphs and ICK, but they got redirected by skinks and bogged down in Saurus.

This is what I'm used to seeing with my Lizardmen. My chameleon skinks kill one cannon turn one and by turn two my razordons and other skinks have killed the rest.

ewar
28-02-2014, 23:57
From talking with my local Lizardman player it is evident that the Carnosaur will pretty much duff over the unit it contacts, and there won't be many units that can survive it.

Have you actually played with or against one? A carnosaur has 4 WS3 I2 attacks - which units exactly is he duffing over? An Old Blood with say Sword of Bloodshed can put the hurt on a unit but comes in at 500 points! I run mine with a scar vet and he makes a reasonable support unit or deals with Monstrous Cav with his high strength and D3 wounds, but he is also fragile as hell and terrible at actually fighting other monsters because of his rubbish initiative and attacks (compare to the shiny new Kharybdiss and weep)


This is what I'm used to seeing with my Lizardmen. My chameleon skinks kill one cannon turn one and by turn two my razordons and other skinks have killed the rest.

I have played LM a long time and (a) I don't roll first turn every game (am I doing something wrong?) or (b) my opponent deploys his artillery in the centre of his lines miles away from where chameleons can get to them. How are you killing artillery with Razordons reliably on turn 2? Your arty dice must be a lot better than mine.

SteveW
01-03-2014, 00:08
I have played LM a long time and (a) I don't roll first turn every game (am I doing something wrong?) or (b) my opponent deploys his artillery in the centre of his lines miles away from where chameleons can get to them. How are you killing artillery with Razordons reliably on turn 2? Your arty dice must be a lot better than mine.

I actually meant rippers, not razors.

Bergen Beerbelly
01-03-2014, 00:10
Have you actually played with or against one? A carnosaur has 4 WS3 I2 attacks - which units exactly is he duffing over? An Old Blood with say Sword of Bloodshed can put the hurt on a unit but comes in at 500 points! I run mine with a scar vet and he makes a reasonable support unit or deals with Monstrous Cav with his high strength and D3 wounds, but he is also fragile as hell and terrible at actually fighting other monsters because of his rubbish initiative and attacks (compare to the shiny new Kharybdiss and weep)



I have played LM a long time and (a) I don't roll first turn every game (am I doing something wrong?) or (b) my opponent deploys his artillery in the centre of his lines miles away from where chameleons can get to them. How are you killing artillery with Razordons reliably on turn 2? Your arty dice must be a lot better than mine.

That old blood build is similar to what he likes to run. I don't remember exactly everything about his army because he doesn't like to play against Dwarfs because he thinks Cannons are broken.