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Marked_by_chaos
20-12-2013, 16:06
The experimental rules for the river troll hag are now up on the PDF section of the forgeworld website. Look pretty good and amusing. Seems to act like a better giant with more comical attacks and is a lv1 death magic wizard.

danny-d-b
20-12-2013, 16:19
looks meh, not going to see competitive gameplay I don't think- and if it does just charge it with a load of bacic dudes, can only kill 4 at best, and highly highly unlikely to do that- unless of course she uses her vomit attack which might be slightly more effective

theunwantedbeing
20-12-2013, 16:22
You know you could have posted a link.... (http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Downloads/Product/PDF/g/GRTH.pdf)

She seems to have little in the way of actual ability to harm any opponents though despite being rather difficult to kill.

Urgat
20-12-2013, 16:35
looks meh, not going to see competitive gameplay I don't think-

Good. The less supidly overpowered things FW releases, the most likely I am to see them on the tables of the games that matter to me. Besides, I think her rules are good, just saddened she only has one vomit attack because it's a breath weapon.
And, and! OMG! Different magic for my OnG! I want to cry tears of happiness. I'll definitively get her at some point.

Hudson Gameover
20-12-2013, 18:35
The L10 death snipe will be realy cool in a orc n goblin army. Shame she is so sucky in combat against big things.
Is she better than a giant? I say yes.

Marked_by_chaos
20-12-2013, 19:07
Good. The less supidly overpowered things FW releases, the most likely I am to see them on the tables of the games that matter to me. Besides, I think her rules are good, just saddened she only has one vomit attack because it's a breath weapon.
And, and! OMG! Different magic for my OnG! I want to cry tears of happiness. I'll definitively get her at some point.

Couldn't agree more. Plus I like the background. The horrid maternal dynamic is great. The prospect of monsters or riders being mothered is awesome!

In terms of rules it seems pretty handy but not broken. A regenerating giant terror causing wizard with -1 to hit and some funny attacks. The ld reducing armour ignoring breath weapon also seems potential awesome.

IcedCrow
20-12-2013, 19:20
I don't think a model's lack of over powered rules not being seen in competitive play matters to a lot of people.

Spiney Norman
21-12-2013, 01:25
They seem pretty dull and ill-thought out really, the 'suck out the marrow' power looks ok, or it would be if its was on the whoppers table, unless you manage to get her into combat with an infantry character she will be doing D6 S5 wounds on a single model from the unit, which typically will only have one wound in any case, unfortunately not quite the wound replenishing ability it should be.

She's basically a more resilient, mostly stupid giant with worse attacks and a sub-par breath weapon, not disastrous, its really only the magic level that makes her anything like worth her cost. I can see her being popular in SoM, she would be an excellent fulcrum-sitter esp as death has one of the better cataclysm spells selection of all the BRB lores.

The whoppers table is really awful, the smother/mither results have the same problem as the giant' yell and ball in that its almost completely useless because it hobbles your opponents ability to attack AFTER most opponents have already attacked (she is I2), and the only whoppers result that is worth a damn (mother) only does a single hit anyway.

Nice to have rules for her I guess, but they are so bad it does make you wonder why they bother...

Lord Dan
21-12-2013, 03:18
Oh, come on FW. What's with the unnecessary nudity? It looks like you literally took a stock rivertroll model and sculpted saggy breasts on it just so you could relabel it as a female troll. It's a flippin' wizard with a higher Ld than most Lord-level characters and which lacks the traditional stupidity of trolls. Surely you could have given her some scraps of clothes?

As for the rules, it seems to fall victim to FW's apparent need to inundate a model with unnecessary special rules in order to make it...well, special.

Importman
21-12-2013, 07:45
I don't mind the rules. They are obviously intended for fun casual play rather than competition.
However is it just me or is forge world's paint job for this particular miniature rather lack lustre and one dimensional.

Sent from my GT-N7105 using Tapatalk 2

Spiney Norman
21-12-2013, 08:02
Oh, come on FW. What's with the unnecessary nudity? It looks like you literally took a stock rivertroll model and sculpted saggy breasts on it just so you could relabel it as a female troll. It's a flippin' wizard with a higher Ld than most Lord-level characters and which lacks the traditional stupidity of trolls. Surely you could have given her some scraps of clothes?

As for the rules, it seems to fall victim to FW's apparent need to inundate a model with unnecessary special rules in order to make it...well, special.

You say it 'lacks stupidity' but thats not going to be true in most games, our gaming club doesn't have a 'water feature' anywhere in any of our terrain collections, heck GW don't even make a water feature of any description as part of their range, they may as well have given it the stupidity rule outright. Ld10 is admittedly very weird, trolls have traditionally had extremely low Ld, so I would have expected a maximum of 6 or 7 even for a troll leader, but I guess they have basically merged the giant and troll rules for this model and decided they would keep the giants ld (a good job they did really or giving it the lore of death would have been a bit pointless).

thesoundofmusica
21-12-2013, 10:51
They seem pretty dull and ill-thought out really, the 'suck out the marrow' power looks ok, or it would be if its was on the whoppers table, unless you manage to get her into combat with an infantry character she will be doing D6 S5 wounds on a single model from the unit, which typically will only have one wound in any case, unfortunately not quite the wound replenishing ability it should be.


I think unless it has the multi-wound rule (which it doesnt seem to have) those wounds would be spread across the unit if that single model is rank'n'file?

Malagor
21-12-2013, 11:23
Well the rule says that you pick a unit and suck out the marrow says target, not target model so I do think that she gets a wound for each normal rank and file model she kills with that attack.

Spiney Norman
21-12-2013, 14:27
I think unless it has the multi-wound rule (which it doesnt seem to have) those wounds would be spread across the unit if that single model is rank'n'file?

Its pretty clear from the way the rule is written that it applies to a single model, you can't 'snap the bones' and 'drink the marrow' of an entire unit at once can you?

Malagor
21-12-2013, 14:59
But it doesn't say that tho.
At the start it says that she picks a unit that will get the special attack, that's her target.
The pick up attack specifies a single model as does the grind it's bone but all other attacks refer to it as target as in the unit that she is attacking.
So yeah, she can apperently suck out the marrow from more then one.

howie
21-12-2013, 15:22
Why is she M5? Trolls are movement 6 and so are giants. Her vomit is Str3 and normal trolls are Str5. I think they're unnecessarily nerfing the beast.
I'm pretty disgruntled at the rules. They're rubbish to be honest, there's no need for it to have LD 10, LD 7 would have been more than enough for mother troll.

They could have done so much more with her than just have her as another keep on the shelf monster.



Howie.

yabbadabba
21-12-2013, 15:29
Fun. characterful, themed, not over powered. Ideal.

Spiney Norman
21-12-2013, 15:41
Fun. characterful, themed, not over powered. Ideal.

You see, I'm not convinced they are altogether characterful, it looks like they just hastily scribbled down some random stats with very little reference to river trolls or their background. She's too different from a regular troll, she's much, much too brave, not stupid when there is a water feature on the table and her vomit works totally differently and she moves more slowly despite being larger and having a bigger stride.

I also don't think she is particularly underpowered she obviously pays a high tax for being a wizard taken outside of lord/hero points, not to mention she gives O&G players access to a BRB lore which knocks their normal, underpowered magic clear out of the park.

yabbadabba
21-12-2013, 15:54
You see, I'm not convinced they are altogether characterful, it looks like they just hastily scribbled down some random stats with very little reference to river trolls or their background. She's too different from a regular troll, she's much, much too brave, not stupid when there is a water feature on the table and her vomit works totally differently.

I also don't think she is particularly underpowered she obviously pays a high tax for being a wizard taken outside of lord/hero points, not to mention she gives O&G players access to a BRB lore which knocks their normal, underpowered magic clear out of the park. Each to their own. I think she is fine and doesn't break the game at all.

Spiney Norman
21-12-2013, 16:23
Each to their own. I think she is fine and doesn't break the game at all.

Where did I say she was "game-breaking"? I actually think they got her points value about right, its just her stats don't really fit what she is supposed to be.

Lord Dan
21-12-2013, 16:51
You say it 'lacks stupidity' but thats not going to be true in most games, our gaming club doesn't have a 'water feature' anywhere in any of our terrain collections, heck GW don't even make a water feature of any description as part of their range, they may as well have given it the stupidity rule outright.

Hardly. Ld 10 with a likely re-roll from the obligatory army BSB means it effectively has no stupidity.

yabbadabba
21-12-2013, 18:10
Where did I say she was "game-breaking"? I actually think they got her points value about right, its just her stats don't really fit what she is supposed to be. You didn't, but I did and I am merely repeating what I said - again. And I think you cannot say what she is supposed to be unless you were part of the design process - after all that is what dictates why they have made these choices. As to whether it fits the River Troll mold or not, this is a cross between a river troll and a giant, something akin to Grendel's mother (both different to each other) and as a mother figure it is both powerful and weak in specific areas. I for one welcome the added water feature rules, as it might encourage a few people to include them and change their battlefields a bit. If I was going to have this in my army then I certainly would. As I said everyone to their own, but all in all I think this could be a fun model to use and play against.

Kingly
21-12-2013, 20:04
I think Yabba is on the money, seems characterful enough and I LOVE the model, it's a nod back to the older days. A decent lack of overpowered is quite unlike FW

Spiney Norman
21-12-2013, 21:36
Hardly. Ld 10 with a likely re-roll from the obligatory army BSB means it effectively has no stupidity.

Indeed, and of course it makes perfect sense for a big troll to be braver than a Warboss...
The slower movement I can just about accept, she has a lot more weight to carry than most river trolls and walking with that stick and net could slower her down. But Ld 10 is totally out of character and the mass over nerf to the vomit rule was pretty unwarranted.

Lord Dan
22-12-2013, 00:34
Indeed, and of course it makes perfect sense for a big troll to be braver than a Warboss...
The slower movement I can just about accept, she has a lot more weight to carry than most river trolls and walking with that stick and net could slower her down. But Ld 10 is totally out of character and the mass over nerf to the vomit rule was pretty unwarranted.

Agreed on both counts, though as you pointed out earlier the Ld10 was likely just an attempt to make Death spells worth using at all.

Spiney Norman
22-12-2013, 14:49
Agreed on both counts, though as you pointed out earlier the Ld10 was likely just an attempt to make Death spells worth using at all.

You'll hopefully forgive me for saying this, but wanting to make her a great delivery method for the death sig spell in direct contradiction of the background for her species is a very poor way to design rules.

Theocracity
22-12-2013, 15:18
You'll hopefully forgive me for saying this, but wanting to make her a great delivery method for the death sig spell in direct contradiction of the background for her species is a very poor way to design rules.

If she had low leadership, would you be carping about how poorly she was designed because she's being charged for wizard levels that he can't use properly?

underscore
22-12-2013, 15:29
One might even suggest that Death magic isn't a great fit for River Trolls, then?

Theocracity
22-12-2013, 15:39
One might even suggest that Death magic isn't a great fit for River Trolls, then?

It seems like a good fit for the Mother, who has some witch doctor themes. I can understand thinking her leadership or movement values could be tweaked a bit to be more consistent, but I don't see any inherent design problems.

underscore
22-12-2013, 15:47
Depends what you're designing for, really. It makes sense from a game design, but as character design it seems like a round peg and a square hole kind of issue.

facepalm
22-12-2013, 15:58
Seems pretty nice to me, compared to a giant which is only about 50 points less you get a much harder to kill monster because of a 6+ save, regen and -1 to hit in CC and maybe even -2. even without the lvl 1 death magic, i would much rather take one of these for 50 points more, then i would take a giant.

Lord Dan
22-12-2013, 19:43
You'll hopefully forgive me for saying this, but wanting to make her a great delivery method for the death sig spell in direct contradiction of the background for her species is a very poor way to design rules.

Oh, I totally agree. I think the Lore of Beasts or Shadow would have made just as much sense, anyway.

Spiney Norman
22-12-2013, 21:32
If she had low leadership, would you be carping about how poorly she was designed because she's being charged for wizard levels that he can't use properly?

Not at all, there are plenty of spells a lower Ld death wizard can make use of, people still field death lore battle wizards don't they? You just don't swap out your roll for the signature, I'm not even certain I would always swap out for xxx even with Ld10, being able to hit a unit with a -3 modifier to their Ld is pretty damn useful, IMHO I'd pay for the magic level just to get a spell into my list that wasn't from the Waaagh lores.

Ld7 would be about the most I would expect from even the most senior troll, Ld10 is braver than most army generals.

yabbadabba
22-12-2013, 22:18
And yet the giant is stubborn 10, isn't it?

Spiney Norman
23-12-2013, 00:01
And yet the giant is stubborn 10, isn't it?

And is not a troll, the giant is a different species, and there are plenty of ways to prove that being big does not automatically make one uber-brave (just about any monster in use Lizardmen book should work here).

Avian
23-12-2013, 00:03
This isn't a Giant, it's a Troll, and Trolls start off at Ld 4. Why is she two and a half times the Ld of others of her species? To me this is in the same category as the walking Idol and the Colossal Squig - the rules don't at all fit the model or the O&G army.

Jack of Blades
23-12-2013, 00:25
Oh, come on FW. What's with the unnecessary nudity? It looks like you literally took a stock rivertroll model and sculpted saggy breasts on it just so you could relabel it as a female troll. It's a flippin' wizard with a higher Ld than most Lord-level characters and which lacks the traditional stupidity of trolls. Surely you could have given her some scraps of clothes?

As for the rules, it seems to fall victim to FW's apparent need to inundate a model with unnecessary special rules in order to make it...well, special.

Why would a troll wear clothes or know how to make them? it's the ones that do which are weird, not this one.

Lord Dan
23-12-2013, 00:55
Why would a troll wear clothes or know how to make them? it's the ones that do which are weird, not this one.

Because it's not a troll, it's a Ld10, effectively-non-stupid, magic wielding character troll, and a scrap of cloth would have fit in just fine. Heck, it didn't even have to be clothes- they could have laden her down with junk like she's a crazy kleptomaniac as a representation of her increased self-awareness both to make the model more interesting and to cover up the anatomically correct parts. As it stands it just looks lazy, as they basically just sculpted breasts on a troll and called it something totally different.

facepalm
23-12-2013, 01:36
Because it's not a troll, it's a Ld10, effectively-non-stupid, magic wielding character troll, and a scrap of cloth would have fit in just fine. Heck, it didn't even have to be clothes- they could have laden her down with junk like she's a crazy kleptomaniac as a representation of her increased self-awareness both to make the model more interesting and to cover up the anatomically correct parts. As it stands it just looks lazy, as they basically just sculpted breasts on a troll and called it something totally different.

I don't know why your complaining about modesty, this is a wholly human concept, which was only developed after humans decided to wear clothes in order to survive, anyone think a troll that can eat rocks and lives in a river is going to mind the cold? why would you assume that there has to be a link between modestly and self awareness in a mythical, fantasy, none human creature. The only reason most of the other humanoid creatures GW make have clothes on is Armour or to spare gamers having to look at multiple reproductive organs. Dragons are assumed to be intelligent, yet they haven't decided to wear pants.

Regarding the LD stat i don't really understand why people are so annoyed. LD can represent so many different aspects of the model, some have high LD because they are too stupid to be afraid, to mad to care, to crazy to be bothered about death. Some have low leadership because they are cowardly, some because they are lazy and some because they are stupid, or undead, or so small, or even so big. In game LD's biggest affect is usualy to decide if a unit is going to flee or not, but its hardly in trolls nature to run away scared, for them its because they are stupid, so if you get a really big old troll that's actually not so dumb why it surprising that they are unlikely to flee? Maybe if there were more stats given to describe the brains of units in fantasy it would make it easy to accept but trolls have been stupid but they have never been described as cowards, yet with one stat for both you have to compromise, since the hag isn't that stupid, to me it makes sense she isn't scared.

Malagor
23-12-2013, 01:38
I really don't see the unnecessary nudity here infact I'm glad that they went tits out with it. It fits it and what kind of creature it is.
Which is kinda funny since it wasn't too long ago there was a thread about the Medusa and GW not covering up nudity anymore. Of course no one suggested that the Medusa should be covered up there.

And am I the only one that enjoys the concept of the river troll femals being alot smarter then their males? Think it's a cool concept.

Lord Dan
23-12-2013, 04:07
I don't know why your complaining about modesty, this is a wholly human concept, which was only developed after humans decided to wear clothes in order to survive,
Right, and that human part of me is taking issue with a nude, anatomically correct troll running around. Whether or not it makes "sense" is ultimately irrelevant to me, I just find it to be in bad taste.



Dragons are assumed to be intelligent, yet they haven't decided to wear pants.
And if GW started modelling their dragons with schlongs flopping around we might be having a different discussion.



I really don't see the unnecessary nudity here infact I'm glad that they went tits out with it. It fits it and what kind of creature it is.
Everything else aside, I totally read "tits out" as though it was an expression indicating "all the way". As in: "The band went totally tits out on the distortion."



Of course no one suggested that the Medusa should be covered up there.
Sure, but she was way hotter. :p

Geep
23-12-2013, 06:26
I like the idea of this model, but the rules are very poorly executed.

Smother/Mither both only last until the end of the game turn. At I2, most enemy will have already attacked- so unless the O&G player has the first player turn the special rules of these attacks are pretty much useless. Sure it's better than only lasting for a 'player turn', but it's only an improvement in roughly 50% of games.

'Suck out its marrow' isn't clear as to whether it targets a unit or single model, as people have been discussing here.

'Grind its bones' will almost never do anything. The target must first fail an initiative test, then suffers an attack- not an automatic hit- from a WS2 creature. And for that it suffers 1 decent strength hit- no multiple wounds or anything special.

FW rules tend to flop back and forth between overly powerful and overly weak. This model is far too weak, and being moderately tough isn't enough to justify it IMO.

Urgat
23-12-2013, 06:30
Oh, come on FW. What's with the unnecessary nudity?

It's obviously to please prepubescent teens, as usual.


It's a flippin' wizard with a higher Ld than most Lord-level characters and which lacks the traditional stupidity of trolls. Surely you could have given her some scraps of clothes?
I'd say the intelligent thing to do when you don't need clothes, don't care about clothes and in live an environment where clothes would actually be a bother, would be to not wear clothes Or maybe she's a femen, who are you to judge? :p

Spiney Norman
23-12-2013, 07:58
In game LD's biggest affect is usualy to decide if a unit is going to flee or not, but its hardly in trolls nature to run away scared


Have you ever used a unit of trolls? This is exactly what they do, a unit of trolls will never pass a break test, they stay in combat by winning, not by bravely sticking around.

The fact remains that trolls are a classically low Ld species in the warhammer system, they have lower Ld than night goblins, Skaven clanrats and skeleton warriors, but the hag has the highest Ld available to any model... So whatever you think a low Ld stat represents for regular trolls is also the reason why the hag should have a lower Ld stat.

Urgat
23-12-2013, 08:44
Well to be honest, I believe the troll's low Ld has always been there to make stupidity actually matter to them, rather than for them to break the moment they lose by 1. The fluff certainly makes it sound that way, with them being jabbering idiots that won't even get what happens if someone chops an arm off, and have no clue of how the battle evolves around them (if they even get the concept of battle at all). If anything, I think they should be stubborn with high Ld, but with a harsher version of animosity that kicks in even in combat.

yabbadabba
23-12-2013, 13:07
And is not a troll, the giant is a different species, and there are plenty of ways to prove that being big does not automatically make one uber-brave (just about any monster in use Lizardmen book should work here).

And yet it is clearly based on the giant.

IcedCrow
23-12-2013, 13:26
its part giant and part troll. Why then is it a big deal if it has the leadership of a giant?

underscore
23-12-2013, 13:38
Because of the part troll bit.

yabbadabba
23-12-2013, 13:49
Just because.

IcedCrow
23-12-2013, 13:50
Well it being part giant part troll means its going to have pieces of one and pieces of the other. I think we're being a bit pedantic. Its a special character hag thing. It has leadership 10. Because its a special character hag thing. Bring it on.

Spiney Norman
23-12-2013, 18:17
its part giant and part troll. Why then is it a big deal if it has the leadership of a giant?

Because its not a giant, its not even a half giant its a big troll there is nothing in its background that suggests it is the product of giant/troll in-breeding it just has some similarities in the way it attacks (presumably justifiable by the similarity of the size of both units, although you could equally chalk that up to designer laziness too). Are you really saying the two models should have the same Ld because they are the same height.

IcedCrow
23-12-2013, 18:32
Im saying if its part giant why is there a **** storm over it having giant leadership.

Its height is irrelevant.

If its not really a giant (i have not read its rules or background) then I still don't care if it has leadership 10. Some humans have leadership 6. Some have leadership 7. Some have 8. Some lords have a 9.

A troll character having a 10 is not something outlandish to me.

InstantKarma
23-12-2013, 18:44
Oh, come on FW. What's with the unnecessary nudity? It looks like you literally took a stock rivertroll model and sculpted saggy breasts on it just so you could relabel it as a female troll. It's a flippin' wizard with a higher Ld than most Lord-level characters and which lacks the traditional stupidity of trolls. Surely you could have given her some scraps of clothes?

As for the rules, it seems to fall victim to FW's apparent need to inundate a model with unnecessary special rules in order to make it...well, special.

^All of this and charge more for the model since it will be resin not plastic.

FW doesn't know how to do rules, which is why the majority of their stuff has the label 'broken' attached to it. Even if they are bad rules, it makes the model broken in the other direction (ie, it sucks).

moonlapse
23-12-2013, 19:10
I agree that Forgeworld are terrible rules-writers. It's like they just don't understand how to write consistent and intelligent rules. Not all of their rules are bad or broken - a lot of the Chaos Dwarfs are fine for example - but I think there's just 'something not quite right' in the way they write and word a lot of their rules. I think they just don't put enough thought into it.

Spiney Norman
23-12-2013, 19:30
I agree that Forgeworld are terrible rules-writers. It's like they just don't understand how to write consistent and intelligent rules. Not all of their rules are bad or broken - a lot of the Chaos Dwarfs are fine for example - but I think there's just 'something not quite right' in the way they write and word a lot of their rules. I think they just don't put enough thought into it.

In fairness most of the stuff that makes it into their actual publications is pretty well thought through and balanced, its the experimental rules that tend to have the wtf stamp on them and this is no exception. In a sense you can't early blame them its not like experimental rules will generate them any revenue because they don't charge for them.


(i have not read its rules or background)


I don't want to be confrontational, but it might help to cast your eye over it before getting embroiled in the debate otherwise your opinion is based on second hand info, and its not like you have to go to a great deal of effort to navigates to the FW page and open a free PDF...

Avian
23-12-2013, 19:50
I think part of the problem is that the FW people just don't play FB. The Squig Gobba in particular had rules that flat out were unplayable. I suspect knowledge of the game would also help in determining what sort of models to produce. The initial plan of putting out random monsters appears to be abandoned and the campaign book is postponed indefinitely.



(i have not read its rules or background)
Usually this helps if one wants to be taken seriously.

InstantKarma
23-12-2013, 20:15
In fairness most of the stuff that makes it into their actual publications is pretty well thought through and balanced, its the experimental rules that tend to have the wtf stamp on them and this is no exception. In a sense you can't early blame them its not like experimental rules will generate them any revenue because they don't charge for them.

So then do they put the rules out with the expecation that players will play test them?

Spiney Norman
23-12-2013, 20:29
So then do they put the rules out with the expecation that players will play test them?

That's an interesting idea, but falls down on two counts, they don't have a proper feedback process, which makes any external play testing pretty irrelevent, and secondly most of the models they put out never go through the experimental rules phase. I think its only really to give people a reason to buy the models which they would be otherwise unable to use because the rules haven't been written yet.

moonlapse
23-12-2013, 20:37
Expanding on what I said earlier, I think Games Workshop are equally capable of putting out strange rules and things which seem like they haven't been tested out, but even then there is a sort of integrity to them which feels nonexistent in the Forgeworld stuff. I guess you're right Spiney Norman that it may be largely the experimental ones which offend the most. They're not experimental in a cool way, they're experimental in a frustrating and/or silly way. Anyway I think that's enough from me about Forgeworld, don't want to derail the thread any more!

Ravenfeld
23-12-2013, 21:50
It's obviously to please prepubescent teens, as usual.

I hope this was being sarcastic - because I think throwing a fit about a naked ugly ass troll is prepubescent and closed minded at best. Eww, a fat chick - so nasty I don't wanna see that. But as some of you folks have pointed out a semi-naked "hot chick" model is perfectly acceptable. That is utter tripe in my opinion. If you have some sort of moral stance on not seeing boobs on models that's one thing, but don't give me this moral preachiness followed by "but hot is okay," garbage.

The model is probably precisely how ugly and proportioned as they wanted it to be. Its a model that will be purchased by folks who like the idea of this hideous troll-mother making an appearance in their armies or on their shelves. If they wanted a naked model that would appeal to "the masses" I'm sure they would have done something differently. Besides, who are WE to judge THEM - how much sculpting do YOU do on a regular basis? How many rules do YOU make? Its easy to be a keyboard soldier and say how things could have been done better or worse - but the fact is that it takes a lot of work.

Its grating to see the preachy self-entitlement of the online community rear its ugly head yet again. If you don't like the model - don't get it. If you don't like the rules - don't get it. Otherwise go nuts and have a characterful (if not super effective) model in your army that would look great beside a unit of River Trolls!

Really though - if the idea of saggy boobs disturbs you so greatly I don't know what to say other than grow up.

The rules are lackluster and slap dash I'll admit, but it has flavor and character which might justify it for some fun games.

Eyrenthaal
24-12-2013, 20:30
To derail the topic of tits..

It's a little bit sad that it comes as a bound monster/ rare.. It would have been nice to have a leader for the trolls.. To add to a unit.. :)

Btw, anyone knows her base size?

SteveW
24-12-2013, 20:39
looks meh, not going to see competitive gameplay I don't think- and if it does just charge it with a load of bacic dudes, can only kill 4 at best, and highly highly unlikely to do that- unless of course she uses her vomit attack which might be slightly more effective

Pick up and can kill 7 and the thunderstomp can kill another 6, that's like way more than 4 man.

Urgat
26-12-2013, 10:27
I hope this was being sarcastic
Now which would it be? I'll give you a hint: it's not my only post in this topic.

Strongarm
26-12-2013, 11:36
Where did I say she was "game-breaking"? I actually think they got her points value about right, its just her stats don't really fit what she is supposed to be.

If you think her points are about right,then surely you must also think her stats are about right too?

moonlapse
26-12-2013, 13:04
If you think her points are about right,then surely you must also think her stats are about right too?

I think what Spiney Norman is saying is that the points value and therefore, yes, the stats are about right, but the stats don't reflect what you would expect to see for a creature of this nature. As abstract points and rules they are fine, but the fluff is off.

Urgat
27-12-2013, 08:59
If you think her points are about right,then surely you must also think her stats are about right too?

Extreme example: you take the stats and rules of a spearchukka, and apply them to a troll model. The points will be about right for the rules, but the stats won't be right for the model.

Spiney Norman
27-12-2013, 10:45
If you think her points are about right,then surely you must also think her stats are about right too?

Moonlapse and Urgat understood me correctly, let me give another example, suppose I am given the job of designing the rules of a dwarf pirate character which has a wooden leg. I decide to give him a movement characteristic of 10 despite the fact that dwarves are usually movement 3 and this one has an added movement impediment (the wooden leg). I could slap an appropriate price point on there but that wouldn't make the rules good or appropriate to the model. No doubt if I did work for GW and had actually done that in an official publication there would be dedicated slice of fanboys who would pitch up on warseer and defend the logic of a M10 dwarf with a wooden leg to death, but that is just the way the world works.

Writing good rules is more than just getting the points right, its making them appropriate for the background of the model you are designing the rules for, and a Ld 10 troll makes about as much sense as a M10 dwarf, low Ld and stupidity is what defines trolls as a species in warhammer in a similar way to how M3 always marching has become the defining characteristic in the dwarf profile.

yabbadabba
27-12-2013, 12:23
Moonlapse and Urgat understood me correctly, let me give another example, suppose I am given the job of designing the rules of a dwarf pirate character which has a wooden leg. I decide to give him a movement characteristic of 10 despite the fact that dwarves are usually movement 3 and this one has an added movement impediment (the wooden leg). I could slap an appropriate price point on there but that wouldn't make the rules good or appropriate to the model. No doubt if I did work for GW and had actually done that in an official publication there would be dedicated slice of fanboys who would pitch up on warseer and defend the logic of a M10 dwarf with a wooden leg to death, but that is just the way the world works. Sorry but that is not a good example at all, it is a classic Aunt Sally.

Writing good rules is more than just getting the points right, its making them appropriate for the background of the model you are designing the rules for, and a Ld 10 troll makes about as much sense as a M10 dwarf, low Ld and stupidity is what defines trolls as a species in warhammer in a similar way to how M3 always marching has become the defining characteristic in the dwarf profile. And yet, a Ld10 giant, of which these rules are clearly based on, is fine? This isn't abut absolutes, it's about opinion. Your opinion is that the Ld10 is not appropriate, but that doesn't make you right, just right for you. Considering what the model represents and the rules that accompany it, I feel that Ld10 is fine especially as the basis of the model, the giant, has been proven to be a fairly balanced and stable unit. Again, my opinion.

If we used your example, what would not be right is the Troll Hag not being stupid, and could ride a monstrous creature as a mount, that would be a more appropriate comparison.

Avian
27-12-2013, 13:07
Well, if you wish to look at it that way, basing Troll rules on Giant rules is inappropriate. Throgg is really big for a Troll, but he's got rules appropriate for a big Troll.

yabbadabba
27-12-2013, 13:27
Well, if you wish to look at it that way, basing Troll rules on Giant rules is inappropriate. Why? Why can't an enormous troll be more like a giant and less like a troll in terms of game mechanics?

Strongarm
27-12-2013, 13:48
Moonlapse and Urgat understood me correctly, let me give another example, suppose I am given the job of designing the rules of a dwarf pirate character which has a wooden leg. I decide to give him a movement characteristic of 10 despite the fact that dwarves are usually movement 3 and this one has an added movement impediment (the wooden leg). I could slap an appropriate price point on there but that wouldn't make the rules good or appropriate to the model. No doubt if I did work for GW and had actually done that in an official publication there would be dedicated slice of fanboys who would pitch up on warseer and defend the logic of a M10 dwarf with a wooden leg to death, but that is just the way the world works.

Writing good rules is more than just getting the points right, its making them appropriate for the background of the model you are designing the rules for, and a Ld 10 troll makes about as much sense as a M10 dwarf, low Ld and stupidity is what defines trolls as a species in warhammer in a similar way to how M3 always marching has become the defining characteristic in the dwarf profile.

I get what you mean now,my mistake.I do agree with your logic,however in this case I think the Hag is not too badly written.We are talking about forgeworld here guys

Avian
27-12-2013, 16:31
Why? Why can't an enormous troll be more like a giant and less like a troll in terms of game mechanics?

Because of the background. It's the same reason you wouldn't give an unusually tall Dwarf the rules of an Elf.

Since it's a bigger Troll, the stats and rules should reflect that. For example, it would be appropriate to have more W, S and T, since those stats are generally higher for bigger models. It is NOT appropriate to have +6 Ld, as there is no connection between a model's size and Ld.

HurrDurr
27-12-2013, 20:40
I can't be the only one who thinks she's sexy right? What's not to like about this TILF. Keep kidding yourselves, just means more trollhag for me.


I don't think it's inappropriate for LDan to feel that way about it at all. Boobs are considered by a lot(most?) to be sexual, it doesn't matter if you paint them green or put them on a monster. Thinking any other way is just silly. Trolls aren't real so you can't tell someone what would be natural for a female trolls appearance. That means someone made a conscious decision to add giant knockers(which being honest look amazing here), being that it's a sculpt it's obviously susceptible to criticism.


In all seriousness sex is being sold and trivialized so much these days(at least in USA) that I don't blame him one bit for rolling his eyes when it finds it's way into warhammer as well. At least the art style was not trying to sexualize it and instead went for hideous(ly beautiful). It's probably anxiety talking and anyone annoyed will get over it, no sleep lost.


As for the rules, trolls are stupid and have low leadership(which may represent many things regarding psychology). This troll is special because it doesn't have low leadership. I don't see a connection between high LD and trolls but I see a connection between the former and crazy hag. I appreciate how they thought outside the box here instead of doing the same old thing you would expect. And we would be listening to complainers either way (oh look how original that is, they made it bigger and increased T S W to match, so clever FW).


All in all if nothing else we have a pretty model to stare at for a few hours.

SteveW
27-12-2013, 20:44
@Hurr Dur, all the chaos women used to be naked, and things like Blood Bowl cheerleaders(the orc one's) have never had their tops covered. That model is par for the course and fits in Warhammer perfectly.

HurrDurr
27-12-2013, 22:30
So that leaves out horses, male trolls, and lots of chaos stuff that should probably have male appendges growing out of weird places. Did I miss anything else that is being misrepresented by not being sculpted anatomically correct? It isn't correct for correctness sake, it's done for some other reason (otherwise you wonder why half are this way and half are not). The issue isn't with this not being par for the course, but that this is what IS par for the course.

I do think it fits warhammer and is realistic, and we still see places in the real world where women are barechested. But that doesn't mean it has to be embraced by everyone (like how i want that fine trollhag to embrace me.) It is not a matter everyone will all come to one conclusion on, which is very clear in this thread.

Muad'Dib
27-12-2013, 23:31
So that leaves out horses, male trolls, and lots of chaos stuff that should probably have male appendges growing out of weird places. Did I miss anything else that is being misrepresented by not being sculpted anatomically correct?
Aren't genitalia of both sexes (much) more taboo than breasts/tits?
Though I think you might have a point; after seeing Kerrigan in Starcraft 2 (a genocidal, wholly mutated queen of Zerg) grow organic high heels, I can see how important is inserting even the most far-fetched references to sex (or sex symbols) into their products.

As for the LD issue - the problem is that LD used to be, quite appropriately, split into several stats. I think she should be close to failing stupidity as often as other Trolls, but be much less likely to run off. That's not possible to represent with the current rules.

Avian
27-12-2013, 23:42
Sure, it is, the rule is called Stubborn. Ld 6 + Stubborn would be all right for a Troll character.

SteveW
27-12-2013, 23:44
So that leaves out horses, male trolls, and lots of chaos stuff that should probably have male appendges growing out of weird places. Did I miss anything else that is being misrepresented by not being sculpted anatomically correct? It isn't correct for correctness sake, it's done for some other reason (otherwise you wonder why half are this way and half are not). The issue isn't with this not being par for the course, but that this is what IS par for the course.

I do think it fits warhammer and is realistic, and we still see places in the real world where women are barechested. But that doesn't mean it has to be embraced by everyone (like how i want that fine trollhag to embrace me.) It is not a matter everyone will all come to one conclusion on, which is very clear in this thread.

You seem to be confusing breasts with genitals. Male breasts are displayed on many models, they even have bulges in their trousers to represent genitals. The reason Trolls don't have anything dangling about is because aquatic animals never seem to have outwardly visible genitalia and for the horses it would be something extra and mostly hidden. If you want to greenstuf yourself up some horse dong though you should, it would add some flavor missing from most armies.

Wishing
28-12-2013, 00:10
Since it's a bigger Troll, the stats and rules should reflect that. For example, it would be appropriate to have more W, S and T, since those stats are generally higher for bigger models. It is NOT appropriate to have +6 Ld, as there is no connection between a model's size and Ld.

My only issue with this is: What is the big difference between a troll and a giant that warrants them having such different Ld scores? To me they both seem like big, lumbering, unintelligent creatures. If we can pinpoint why a giant has a high Ld and a troll has a low Ld, we might be able to construct a better picture of why the hag has the Ld that she does.

Of course, you could also say that the high Ld is simply a reflection of what makes her especially different from normal trolls, which to my mind isn't her size, but the fact that she is a wizard. Since we don't have any precedence for troll wizards, it is difficult to state exactly what an appropriate Ld is for one such.

Spiney Norman
28-12-2013, 00:39
My only issue with this is: What is the big difference between a troll and a giant that warrants them having such different Ld scores? To me they both seem like big, lumbering, unintelligent creatures. If we can pinpoint why a giant has a high Ld and a troll has a low Ld, we might be able to construct a better picture of why the hag has the Ld that she does.


But equally you could analyse any two models in the game and say exactly the same, what is so different between a dwarf and a goblin, they're a similar size, one has a beard, the other is green, why does that warrant such wildly differents stat lines? Oh yeah, because they are a different species.

Besides Giants are generally portrayed as 'slow' rather than necessarily unintelligent, a high Ld could represent an impassivity brought about through slow reactions, rather like what the Lizardmen cold blooded rule is supposed to represent, whereas in the case of a large troll a high Ld actually undermines their defining racial trait: stupidity.

facepalm
28-12-2013, 00:41
Because of the background. It's the same reason you wouldn't give an unusually tall Dwarf the rules of an Elf.

Since it's a bigger Troll, the stats and rules should reflect that. For example, it would be appropriate to have more W, S and T, since those stats are generally higher for bigger models. It is NOT appropriate to have +6 Ld, as there is no connection between a model's size and Ld.


Pretty much ALL greenskin have the connection of size and leadership. snotlings are little goblins who are little orcs... in physical difference there is a similar difference between a night goblin and a black orc, but lets forget about things like that, and just focus on the "background" of which GW not only OWN but have every right to change what ever and when ever they want in it. They make changes all the time 9/10 times no one mentions anything, until its something they don't agree with and decide they are wrong.

Why can people not accept that trolls are NOT cowards, they are huge scarey monsters that are almost impossible to kill, they have low LD to make sure the fact that they have stupidity actual be relevent, but if you took that stupidity away from them i have no doubt that would be much much higher leadership. So when you get a clever troll, why is it so surprising its not as cowardly as a night goblin?

HurrDurr
28-12-2013, 08:03
You seem to be confusing breasts with genitals. Male breasts are displayed on many models, they even have bulges in their trousers to represent genitals. The reason Trolls don't have anything dangling about is because aquatic animals never seem to have outwardly visible genitalia and for the horses it would be something extra and mostly hidden. If you want to greenstuf yourself up some horse dong though you should, it would add some flavor missing from most armies.

As far as I can remember we have trolls that are not aquatic, and some old models that do wear loincloths iirc(why the people who are proboob never complained about those loincloths before is a mystery).

So comparing male and female in your example is pointless because one of them is displaying something that most people in most cultures consider sexual and one is not.

I'm considering making a demo horse that hasn't been horribly scarred by sculpters prejudice. If I do then I will post pictures. Come to think of it that might be a nice conversion for my hellstriders of slaanesh. They already have tons of boobs, why not throw on some manliness into the mix for consistency.