PDA

View Full Version : skavenpelt banner - Frenzy



Methios
20-12-2013, 16:16
In the discription it says it gives all models the "frenzy" special rule.
I believe this effectivly means that any character that is in this unit. And leaves it after it gained the rule. Keeps his frenzy?

theunwantedbeing
20-12-2013, 17:16
You don't get to keep the special rule provided by the banner if you leave the unit.

Methios
20-12-2013, 17:29
Im sure RAI it is that way. But Raw? The BRB rule says you only loose frenzy if you lose combat..

theunwantedbeing
20-12-2013, 17:43
Im sure RAI it is that way. But Raw? The BRB rule says you only loose frenzy if you lose combat..

Okay, RAW you get to keep frenzy (along with every other special rule gained by an item that lacks a time limit).
The difference being frenzied troops can lose it, while it's not possible to lose any other special rule gained in that way.

RAI, you lose the effect as soon as you leave the unit.

3eland
21-12-2013, 17:43
The item says "All models in a unit with the banner gain the Frenzy and Hatred rule" What makes you think that leaving the unit you still keep the rules? You are no longer in the unit and so you no longer gain the advantages of being in it. Otherwise people would start all their tough characters in units that give the unit rules and then leave keeping the new rules. That just doesn't make sense and would be an unfair advantage.

Horus38
21-12-2013, 21:38
Im sure RAI it is that way. But Raw? The BRB rule says you only loose frenzy if you lose combat..

This does not work by Raw either and you'll probably get slapped for arguing it does.

herohammer
11-01-2014, 21:35
Raw characters would keep the frenzy. Nothing in the rules for the banner state they lose it when they leave the unit. If they did lose the frenzy, would the rules need to state as much? I think probably yes given the precedent of the rules for Minotaur characters in the beast men army book which give units that they join frenzy. This rule states that these units lose frenzy if the minotaur character leaves the unit or dies.

Obviously the LM book really needs an FAQ but who knows when fw will get around to that...

furrie
11-01-2014, 22:45
Raw characters would keep the frenzy. Nothing in the rules for the banner state they lose it when they leave the unit. If they did lose the frenzy, would the rules need to state as much? I think probably yes given the precedent of the rules for Minotaur characters in the beast men army book which give units that they join frenzy. This rule states that these units lose frenzy if the minotaur character leaves the unit or dies.

Obviously the LM book really needs an FAQ but who knows when fw will get around to that...
That would mean that a character will always keep the 1+ movement from the banner of swifftness or flaming attacks from the banner of ethernal flames?

Nubl0
11-01-2014, 23:58
No it wouldn't, it's because the frenzy rule outright states you cannot lose it until beaten in combat. I would not play it this way, but raw it looks legit.

Lord Dan
12-01-2014, 04:03
That would mean that a character will always keep the 1+ movement from the banner of swifftness or flaming attacks from the banner of ethernal flames?

At first I thought that it would not, however now I'm not so sure. For example, on page 97 there is a section marked "Spells" as they relate to character and units, which clearly stipulates:


When a character joins a unit that is under the effect of a spell that affects the entire unit, the character only benefits or suffers from the effects of the spell whilst he remains in the unit.

Very clear. The rules which explain how special rules and characters interact can be found on page 100, and are a little different:


On the other hand, many spells and magic items bestow special rules and other effects on units. In this case, everyone (including the character) in the combined unit will be affected.

There is no specific clause for what happens when the character leaves, as is done with spells. Furthermore, the "Special Rules" section on page 66 only says that when special rules are conferred by magic items, the rules which govern that equipment will "make this clear". I don't see how any banner wouldn't therefore confer their special rules permanently if we're following the logic of the OP. For example, the Banner of Swiftness:


Models in a unit with the Banner of Swiftness have +1 to their Movement characteristic.

So a character joins a unit with the banner. They gain +1 Movement, per the rule found on Pg. 100. They leave the unit. ...there is no rule specifically saying that the +1 Movement is lost. One could argue that Frenzy is different because it "can only be lost through losing combat", however by the same logic all other rules can never be lost.

Look, at this point we're nitpicking words here. It's clear what the designers intended by looking at the precedent for spells, however the rules governing special rules are far less clear. If someone is going to argue that the Skavenpelt banner confers Frenzy to characters which leave the unit holding the banner, then I'm starting out all of my characters in my unit with the Banner of Eternal Flame in games against that person. :p

furrie
12-01-2014, 07:25
No it wouldn't, it's because the frenzy rule outright states you cannot lose it until beaten in combat. I would not play it this way, but raw it looks legit.
No where in the book states that you can lose the other special rules and as such you will keep the effects of the banners, according to people whom argue that the characters keep there frenzy, even after the characters have left the unit.

Mr_Rose
12-01-2014, 09:17
No it wouldn't, it's because the frenzy rule outright states you cannot lose it until beaten in combat. I would not play it this way, but raw it looks legit.

No it doesn't. It says you must lose it when beaten and cannot normally gain it back but nowhere does it say that the only way to lose frenzy is to be beaten in combat.

Rake
13-01-2014, 13:51
Two important considerations for me:
a) Sounds like rules lawyering. I want to play the game, not the rules.
b) I would argue that its an instance of not having the rules as nothing is granting them to you, rather than having it and loosing it without loosing combat.

Mr_Rose
13-01-2014, 16:50
Also, does the banner not give "the unit" frenzy? How is a character that has left part of "the unit" still?