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The Lion's Shade
24-12-2013, 12:03
I was just wondering are Deathwing Terminators better than other chapters terminators aside from their numbers. This is purely fluff wise.

Asher
24-12-2013, 12:16
It has long been established that Ultramarines are in fact the best Space Marines around. Every chapter strives to be like them and DA are no different in that regard.

Just look at the numbers; the UM 1st company got destroyed but stopped an entire Hive Fleet in the process, while the Deathwing got decimated by a mere local Genestealer infestation.

Thus:

Ultramarines > Deathwing

m1acca1551
24-12-2013, 12:36
Not really, they are all on a par really, they maybe more adapt at fighting in a certain manner than say ultramarines but then again so might the ultramarines.

From a fluff perspective the only SM who can claim to be the strongest are that of the Grey Knights, whose training both physical and mental allow them to be better than the average marine or marine terminator armour.

Look at the space wolves, surely they are some of the best marines but wait, what about the blood angels?? Or the white scars? Or the iron hands?? Surely they are individually the best?? The death wing are simply those marines who are great warriors in there own right who are bonded together in a company to complete certain missions. No different from the Wolf Guard or 1st company of the UM.

There is no best, apart from those who survive in the 40k world. Surving the horrors allows you are certain level of hardness but remember there is always something better out there.

Lord Damocles
24-12-2013, 12:38
Just look at the numbers; the UM 1st company got destroyed but stopped an entire Hive Fleet in the process, while the Deathwing got decimated by a mere local Genestealer infestation.
Wasn't Deathwing only one squad (which would mean that the Ultramarines lost more terminators on Ichar IV)? And isn't it implied that the story is apocryphal anyway?

Plus the Ultramarines didn't defeat a Behemoth with their 1st Company. Battle of Circe and all that...

Asher
24-12-2013, 13:12
Wasn't Deathwing only one squad (which would mean that the Ultramarines lost more terminators on Ichar IV)? And isn't it implied that the story is apocryphal anyway?

Plus the Ultramarines didn't defeat a Behemoth with their 1st Company. Battle of Circe and all that...

Unfortuantely I don't remember the details of that event; it is a while ago I last read about it. In any case, my comment was more side blow on general ward/UM hate than anything else.

Concerning the topic; DW are very focused on using TDA thus probably marginally better at it; but that makes the DW much less tactically flexible compared to other 1st companies.

As such I'd argue, that they are somewhat better at tasks which call for a use of TDA but much worse at task where the use of TDA is ill fit.

LexxBomb
24-12-2013, 13:37
I'm sure the DA codex at one point said the Deathwing is the greatest Terminator force in the Galaxy.
I miss the days when only the Deathwing could have Apothecarties and Standardbearers in TDA.
Then again I remember when the Grey Knights only ever fielded terminators.

The Lion's Shade
24-12-2013, 14:43
What about a comparison between them and Wolfguard terminators of the SW and Sword Brethren terminators of the BT

theJ
24-12-2013, 15:28
From a fluff perspective the only SM who can claim to be the strongest are that of the Grey Knights, whose training both physical and mental allow them to be better than the average marine or marine terminator armour.

Grey Knights can be claimed to be "better" than other marines, yes, but that is because of them being psykers, NOT because of superior training.
In fact, it's often been argued that due to their specialised training, Grey Knights would fare worse in most combat situations than other marines.


I'm sure the DA codex at one point said the Deathwing is the greatest Terminator force in the Galaxy.
I miss the days when only the Deathwing could have Apothecarties and Standardbearers in TDA.
Then again I remember when the Grey Knights only ever fielded terminators.
They've been stated to be the most famous on numerous occasions, but fame, contrary to popular belief, does not actually make oneself stronger.
The Deathwing are the best and brightest of their chapter(and possibly legion), and get to wield the mightiest weapons their chapter(and possibly legion) can supply them with. Same as any other chapter(or possibly legion).

Camman1984
24-12-2013, 16:15
I agree it must be the ultramarines, they have the best chaplain,librarian,tank ace,scout leader and chapter master, so it makes sense that their veterans must also be the best. Of maybe i am just bitter that my chapter got shafted special character wise :-p

Tim_Ward
24-12-2013, 16:45
I imagine the quality of various chapters' first companies would very at different times, depending on the quality and numbers of recruits available when slots became free. For example, after Macragge you can imagine the UM were more interested in rebuilding numbers than in quality.

Felwether
24-12-2013, 16:58
I imagine the quality of various chapters' first companies would very at different times, depending on the quality and numbers of recruits available when slots became free. For example, after Macragge you can imagine the UM were more interested in rebuilding numbers than in quality.

That's not necessarily true. They rebuilt the 1st company quite quickly but there were probably marines in the battle companies who were more than qualified to join - they just lacked the room. One Hive Fleet Behemoth later and hey presto a spot just opened up!

m1acca1551
25-12-2013, 00:21
That's not necessarily true. They rebuilt the 1st company quite quickly but there were probably marines in the battle companies who were more than qualified to join - they just lacked the room. One Hive Fleet Behemoth later and hey presto a spot just opened up!

This and I'm fairly certain they could have tithed their successor chapters to build then back to 50% using 1st company veterans who are used to TDA and then complete the rest with members of the of the other chapters.

Tim_Ward
25-12-2013, 02:03
That's not necessarily true. They rebuilt the 1st company quite quickly but there were probably marines in the battle companies who were more than qualified to join - they just lacked the room. One Hive Fleet Behemoth later and hey presto a spot just opened up!

Point is, before Behemoth they wouldn't just be taking any qualified marine, they'd be taking the best of the qualified marines.


This and I'm fairly certain they could have tithed their successor chapters to build then back to 50% using 1st company veterans who are used to TDA and then complete the rest with members of the of the other chapters.

I can only imagine the ****-storm that would have resulted in bringing in marines from successor chapters to the Ultramarines first company the heads of genuine Ultramarines that had survived behemoth.

m1acca1551
25-12-2013, 06:51
Mmm I don't see why this would be a problem, if the ultramarines are the most practical and level headed of the chapters the a move like this would make perfect sense.

And at the end of the day, stripping the other companies of there vets leaves these companies full of FnG's and simply shifts the problem further along without solving it.

Turion Rilyaloce
25-12-2013, 16:48
I think the Deathwing may be the best in TDA as they deploy and train in it exclusively. They are definitely specialists and may be deficient in other area that more flexible first companies excel, but that is the point. They would have another force deployed that functions better in those roles.



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Fen
25-12-2013, 16:59
They are not

The main strenght of the Deathwing compared to other chapter's 1st comes from numbers,not from being "superterminators"


Wasn't Deathwing only one squad (which would mean that the Ultramarines lost more terminators on Ichar IV)? And isn't it implied that the story is apocryphal anyway?
That history isn't exactly clear on how many terminators were on the world fighing the genestealers.

BUT

At the end,when the chapter sends marines to get them back after years,they say that the chapter "suffered from missing the terminator armours while they were gone" so that seems to imply all dark angels terminator went missing (so all but an handful died there and those remaining decided to stay there to retrain the tribals on the old ways)

Israfael
26-12-2013, 02:51
I was just wondering are Deathwing Terminators better than other chapters terminators aside from their numbers. This is purely fluff wise.

Better at hunting The Fallen? Absolutely. Better in general? I doubt it.

Let's not attempt to make us 'simply better just because'; the Wolves have that dubious 'honor' covered already.

Hengist
26-12-2013, 21:05
It may have changed since (indeed given modern 40k background's love of superlatives, it wouldn't surprise me), but traditionally (which is to say since the latter years of Rogue Trader), it wasn't so much the Dark Angels' unique thing that their Terminator marines were better, as that they had more suits. Originally, the only special thing about the Deathwing was that they were the protagonists of Bill King's rather good novella that game them their name, and which was at the time the most detailed look we had ever really enjoyed of the Space Marines, and the focus of the Deathwing and Genestealer Space Hulk supplements.

Archaon
26-12-2013, 23:48
They are not

The main strenght of the Deathwing compared to other chapter's 1st comes from numbers,not from being "superterminators"


That history isn't exactly clear on how many terminators were on the world fighing the genestealers.

BUT

At the end,when the chapter sends marines to get them back after years,they say that the chapter "suffered from missing the terminator armours while they were gone" so that seems to imply all dark angels terminator went missing (so all but an handful died there and those remaining decided to stay there to retrain the tribals on the old ways)

Just to clear that up.. it was one squad. They were on a recruiting run on one of their worlds that was american native themed (in comparison like Fenris is Viking themed, Ultramar is Roman/Greek themed and so on) which is why some Deathwing models had single feathers here and there.. GW is subtle :D

They discovered that the world had been infested with Genestealers (though i believe this was before Tyranids were officially introduced) and they went to liberate them. The odds were hugely against them so they painted their Terminator armor (which was black or green, can't remember) in the traditional color of mourning which was white.

They managed to defeat the Genestealers and their Patriarch though at huge costs (i think their Librarian died in the fight against the Patriach) which is why from then on the Deathwing paints their armor white in honor of those Terminators who fought to defend their people.

El_Machinae
27-12-2013, 13:46
How would the Dark Angels have more Terminator suits than normal?

The Emperor
27-12-2013, 13:53
Because they were the First Legion, and so would be the best equipped of the Legions.

And I'd say the Deathwing are the best by simple fact that they're the only 1st Company that I'm aware of that's fully outfitted with Terminator Armor. The 1st Company of most other Chapters are probably divided in half between Terminator Armor and Power Armor, but the Deathwing are entirely equipped with Terminator Armor, so on that basis alone I'd say they're the best. Not to mention that they have access to their Deathwing Command Squad, Plasma Cannons in standard squads, and unique units like Deathwing Knights.

09philj
27-12-2013, 14:44
Two words: Smite Mode.

Hengist
27-12-2013, 16:14
How would the Dark Angels have more Terminator suits than normal?

It was just the Dark Angels' gimmick when GW first began publishing rules (for 1st ed. Epic Space Marine) to create distinctions between chapters. The Dark Angels were allowed (presumably thanks to the Deathwing having recently been devised for Space Hulk) to take a whole company's worth of Terminators, as the first company of the first battalion in the game's force org chart. I don't recall there being an explanation; it certainly wasn't anything to do with being the first legion, since the legions had not at that time been numbered (indeed 'legion' and 'chapter' were at the time still used interchangeably in the fluff).

As I recall the same rules allowed the Ultramarines regimental-sized tank formations (supposedly because they had more Techmarines, which was their original gimmick, prior to ~spiritual liege~); the Blood Angels also had one, but what it was I forget (bear in mind this stuff was published in a White Dwarf c1990).

GreyishKnight
27-12-2013, 18:37
Grey Knights can be claimed to be "better" than other marines, yes, but that is because of them being psykers, NOT because of superior training.
In fact, it's often been argued that due to their specialised training, Grey Knights would fare worse in most combat situations than other marines.
It wouldn't surprised me if that last sentence started being propagated widely in the forums, despite the fact that the evidence more often points to the contrary rather than not. :rolleyes:

Spiney Norman
27-12-2013, 18:50
I was just wondering are Deathwing Terminators better than other chapters terminators aside from their numbers. This is purely fluff wise.

Only in the sense that they have a 'better' version of terminators in Deathwing knights, its fair to assume that as an elite version of regular Deathwing DWKs are equally elite compared to the terminators of other chapters.

OuroborosTriumphant
27-12-2013, 19:34
I imagine, given that the Deathwing fight exclusively in Terminator Armour, it might be reasonably to say they are the best at using TDA (which isn't necessarily the same as being the best warriors in TDA; A Grey Knight may be a more dangerous opponent than a Deathwing Terminator because of his psychic powers, even if the Deathwing is better at using his armour). While an Ultramarine warrior of the first company is learning to use specialized ammo to best effect or to perform the kind of close-range Jump-Pack interventions that the Vanguard Veterans are capable of, his equivalent in the Deathwing is training longer and longer with his Tactical Dreadnought Armour.

The rules would tend to bear this reading out; compared to other terminators Deathwing have special rules making them superior at teleport-based assaults, but their BS, WS and other basic stats are the same; they are equally skilled at shooting and fighting but better at actually using the TDA they love so much.

So, are DW the best terminators? No. But they are the best at being terminators.

Silversage
29-12-2013, 08:11
That tale of Deathwing battling a Genestealer infection on their homeworld is listed in the codex under "Apocryphal tales" so I figure that even if it actually did happen at some point in history, it's been adjusted and upscaled during the years it's been told. Much like with many other legends. It only says that there was "a band of Deathwing terminators", not all of them.

Also, at no point in the DA codex does it state that "omg these guys are the bestest and most uber termies EVAH". The codex wasn't written by Matt Ward after all, thank the Emperor for that. It just puts a clear emphasis on the fact that Deathwing usually operates alongside elements of the Ravenwing for point blank teleportationg awesomeness and that the Deathwing seems to be more tipped towards shooting rather than hitting people in the face. Deathwing Knights are the exception to this rule, but in general Deathwing is described to teleport into the thick of battle with guns blazing.

Raverrn
31-12-2013, 22:59
Grey Knights can be claimed to be "better" than other marines, yes, but that is because of them being psykers, NOT because of superior training.
In fact, it's often been argued that due to their specialised training, Grey Knights would fare worse in most combat situations than other marines.

You're probably right, unless that combat situation involves taking objectives, shooting dudes, hitting dudes with sticks or throwing grenades - all of which GK terminators are better at than more mundane chapters.

Porkus Pigu
05-01-2014, 12:29
I think all terminators (except the grey knights)are as good as each other, but the deathwing have something like 20 full terminator squads or something.

Lord Damocles
05-01-2014, 13:42
I think all terminators (except the grey knights)are as good as each other, but the deathwing have something like 20 full terminator squads or something.
Even that wouldn't be massively unusual. Where we're given numbers of Terminator suits, the Chapter in question can usually equip the majority (or equivalent) of the 1st Company.

The Ultramarines have 74 in the 1st Company in the 3rd ed. Codex: Space Marines
The Blood Angels boarded Sin Of Damnation with ~80 Terminators
The Grey Knights can fit out most of the Chapter
Wrath of Iron indicates that an Iron hands Clan/Company has [had] 7-8 suits

Black Templars seem to be the odd ones out with the Donian Crusade only having 14 suits for 600 or so Marines.

Grndhog89
05-01-2014, 16:12
Even that wouldn't be massively unusual. Where we're given numbers of Terminator suits, the Chapter in question can usually equip the majority (or equivalent) of the 1st Company.

The Ultramarines have 74 in the 1st Company in the 3rd ed. Codex: Space Marines
The Blood Angels boarded Sin Of Damnation with ~80 Terminators
The Grey Knights can fit out most of the Chapter
Wrath of Iron indicates that an Iron hands Clan/Company has [had] 7-8 suits

Black Templars seem to be the odd ones out with the Donian Crusade only having 14 suits for 600 or so Marines.

Thats 200 suits of TDA and the next highest occurrence after that is 80? You say that isn't massively unusual? That is more than double the amount of BA TDA suits.

El_Machinae
05-01-2014, 16:15
Why do we think the Grey Knights can fit out most of the chapter?

Lord Damocles
05-01-2014, 17:35
Thats 200 suits of TDA and the next highest occurrence after that is 80? You say that isn't massively unusual? That is more than double the amount of BA TDA suits.
Why would we think that the Dark Angels have a 1st Company twice the size of the standard?

In-universe rumours suggest that they don't conform to the standard company complement (without specifying a higher or lower number)(6th ed., pg.14), but the organisational chart in the 4th ed. Codex (pg.15) clearly shows them as having twenty (at the time limited to five man) squads.



Why do we think the Grey Knights can fit out most of the chapter?
'The Grey Knights... can muster enough Tactical Dreadnought armour to outfit almost their entire Chapter.' (Codex: Grey Knights, pg.27)

OuroborosTriumphant
05-01-2014, 17:55
Having enough TDA to equip the entire Deathwing is probably more remarkable with regard to the Dark Angel's successors than the Dark Angels themselves. After all, it's not just the Dark Angels themselves who have a Deathwing that deploys entirely in TDA.

I imagine most First Founding Chapters have the clout to get enough TDA for most of their first company. After all, "We supply the esteemed Blood Angels, First Founding gene-children of the great Sanguinius" is probably a significant mark of distinction for a Forgeworld. But DA successors also have enough TDA to field all-terminator first companies, while I'm not sure the average Blood Angel successor can.

(Hmm, this does suggest the Unforgiven as a whole probably have a close alliance with a TDA-producing Forgeworld. Which is pretty interesting.)

El_Machinae
05-01-2014, 22:53
'The Grey Knights... can muster enough Tactical Dreadnought armour to outfit almost their entire Chapter.' (Codex: Grey Knights, pg.27)

Thanks. Do we have any idea how large their chapter is? Standard?

Hengist
05-01-2014, 23:07
Even that wouldn't be massively unusual. Where we're given numbers of Terminator suits, the Chapter in question can usually equip the majority (or equivalent) of the 1st Company.

The Ultramarines have 74 in the 1st Company in the 3rd ed. Codex: Space Marines
The Blood Angels boarded Sin Of Damnation with ~80 Terminators
The Grey Knights can fit out most of the Chapter
Wrath of Iron indicates that an Iron hands Clan/Company has [had] 7-8 suits

Black Templars seem to be the odd ones out with the Donian Crusade only having 14 suits for 600 or so Marines.

Not that 40k is concerned with dull, practical stuff like logistics, but if we really were desperate to make the whole thing make sense, the logic could be followed that the whole Deathwing can always fight in TDA, even in prolonged campaigns, because they have not only a hundred suits, but significantly more in reserve, stockpiles of spare components, and/or the technological know-wots to fabricate more. By that rationale, one could assume that while other chapters might have nearly a hundred suits, and would be able to match the Deathwing's numbers on a parade ground, the Dark Angels either literally have thousands ready to issue, or have the capacity to build them at a rate sufficient to cover any likely rate of battlefield loss, and can thus constantly keep at least a hundred Terminator Marines in combat.

There's no real background justification for this, but it would be a parsimonious retcon which would fit with the Dark Angels' schtick of having greater access to cool, vanished technology.

SomeRandomEvilGuy
05-01-2014, 23:46
Thanks. Do we have any idea how large their chapter is? Standard?
As of the Grey Knights Codex they are around 1000 strong. Before that I believe it was said to be roughly 3000.

Nazguire
06-01-2014, 03:55
I never understood why the Grey Knights were changed to being exactly 1000 or so when in order to span the galaxy like they are meant to, they'd need to be thousands strong. And I couldn't see a problem with them being the only Chapter permitted to exceed the Codex because they don't even nominally follow it anyway.

insectum7
06-01-2014, 06:35
Thats 200 suits of TDA and the next highest occurrence after that is 80? You say that isn't massively unusual? That is more than double the amount of BA TDA suits.

20 squads of five, not ten, is the traditional layout of the DA first company. So a hundred suits + supernumaries.

LexxBomb
06-01-2014, 13:01
if you include all members of The Deathwing you end up with about 150 Suits... Remember all Librarians are also Deathwing, as are Interigators Chaplains as are Captains and potentially Vet Sergents...

Aldavaer
06-01-2014, 16:14
If I remember correctly doesn't the DA Codex state that both Deathwing and Ravenwing numbers are not known but are thought to exceed the normal company size.

Lord Damocles
06-01-2014, 18:22
There's no real background justification for this, but it would be a parsimonious retcon which would fit with the Dark Angels' schtick of having greater access to cool, vanished technology.
The reason Deathwing are played up as 'all Terminators all the time' (or other Chapters are played down somewhat) is that the Dark Angels are the designated 'Terminator (and to a lesser extent bike) Chapter'.
Like how the Blood Angels are the 'assault Chapter' despite having the exact same number of Assault Squads as any other Codex adherent Chapter.


Exactly how only ever deploying in Terminator armour works with driving a Land Raider is never explained, however...



if you include all members of The Deathwing you end up with about 150 Suits... Remember all Librarians are also Deathwing, as are Interigators Chaplains as are Captains and potentially Vet Sergents...
Librarians etc. are Members of the Inner Circle, but needn't be members of the Deathwing (who are specifically the 1st Company).

All Deathwing are Inner Circle, but not all Inner Circle are serving Deathwing.



If I remember correctly doesn't the DA Codex state that both Deathwing and Ravenwing numbers are not known but are thought to exceed the normal company size.
In-universe rumours (so not necessarily reliable) '...persist hat they [Deathwing/Ravenwing] do not conform to the standard company complement' (Codex: Dark Angels (6th ed. pg.14). Note that these rumours aren't stated as claiming an above average complement.

The Chapter organisation chart from the previous Codex (pg.15) - the only time the composition of the company has been spelt out - shows the Deathwing as being standard size.
Even if you were to add Deathwing Knights on top, you wouldn't increase their numbers by all that much.

Aldavaer
07-01-2014, 08:15
Thanks Lord Damocles, I knew it said something but didn't have the codex with me.