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Erorior
24-12-2013, 18:31
(I could not find a thread like this before, but my search-fu might not be good enough. If this has been done before I apologize in advance)

I have seen many comments over the year about the different fortifications and how they do not fit army X both by design and the general tactics described in the fluff (actually this would probably apply to most non-imperial armies). I would like to hear your thoughts on what type of fortifications you would deem fitting for the different codices in the hypothetical scenario that each codex would contain at least one army-specific fortification to better suit the codex' style.

For example, I could see the DE webway portal instead being a fortification to be placed in your deployment zone. Or the tyranid having those big tentacle-like thing rising from the ground with the ability to spawn ripper swarms or something like that.

Cheers! :)

SpanielBear
24-12-2013, 18:52
This could be pretty cool. I think Daemons have the nearest equivalent to the 'webway' fortification atm, a gate that spawns various troops. Sounds like fun to me!

Menthak
24-12-2013, 19:37
Or do a supplement for fortification? Detailing a list of army specific fortifications and scenarios involving them.

MajorWesJanson
24-12-2013, 19:55
Eldar/Dark Eldar- Webway portal/Gate. Place it on the table, units can enter from reserve as though it was a board edge. If they have the outflank rule, they can assault on the turn they arrive from the gate.
Orks- Mek Shop- Bonuses for shooty units inside, repair ability for vehicles nearby, can buy emplaced weapons and KFF.
Nids- Hive Node- Provides a synapse bubble. Spore Towers- stationary Venomthrope bonus
Chaos- Chaos Shrine- no deepstrike mishap within 6", +1 to LD values of chaos marines and Daemons within 12"

Beppo1234
24-12-2013, 20:11
I always thought Chaos could go for something like a 'stargate' dropped from orbit, which is a gate into the warp. A deep strike portal that anything can walk, drive or fly through

Erorior
24-12-2013, 22:08
Or do a supplement for fortification? Detailing a list of army specific fortifications and scenarios involving them.

This was a pretty neat idea, and it would follow the trend that GW is currently taking.

What fortification would Space Marines have to further the fluff part where they spearhead imperial forces? Deep-strikable turrets? Maybe doesn't count as a "fortification" per se though...

Retrospectus
24-12-2013, 23:34
Some form of ammo stockpile to keep them in the fight longer? they do tend to get behind enemy lines so they'd probably need some form of resupply

MajorWesJanson
25-12-2013, 02:20
This was a pretty neat idea, and it would follow the trend that GW is currently taking.

What fortification would Space Marines have to further the fluff part where they spearhead imperial forces? Deep-strikable turrets? Maybe doesn't count as a "fortification" per se though...

Actually, Sabre platforms work, as would a small command and control relay that helped reserves and deepstriking nearby.

Fable
25-12-2013, 12:12
This was a pretty neat idea, and it would follow the trend that GW is currently taking.

What fortification would Space Marines have to further the fluff part where they spearhead imperial forces? Deep-strikable turrets? Maybe doesn't count as a "fortification" per se though...

To be honest I don't expect to see any Xenos terrain or rules for it from GW other than the suggestion that we use the Unique Terrain option to craft our own as players.

The reason for this would be math + GW-panty-uproar factor. At some point GW math showed them that it's more worthwhile to continually produce imperial terrain than to spend equal design time or money producing Xenos terrain. Mind you I'm not saying it wouldn't make money, just that it wouldn't make as much money, something we would call: ignoring a profit center. At the same time they don't want to create rules for things they don't offer as a model (uproar factor), it just lets other companies fulfill that demand they are not willing to satisfy.

That is why we're starting to see more Independant miniature shops focus on creating Xenos analogues to Imperial scenery and capturing that profit center GW ignores like chapter house or micro art studio do with Xenos defense lines or unique Xenos style terrain like miniaturescenery did.

lantzkev
25-12-2013, 16:22
Or the kickstarter chapterhouse did for defense lines for everyone... tyrannids included

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Zark the Damned
26-12-2013, 23:47
I'd like to see some Ork fortifications based on their buildings from Dawn of War. Waaargh towers, Mek Shops, etc.

Plus possibly a throwback to the old fluff and have a Weirdboy tower. Essentially a big copper pole with a Weirdboy in a hut on top throwing out Waaargh energy lightning bolts.

For Marines I can see a comeback of the old Firebase. This was a cardboard bit of scenery produced in 2nd ed. - http://www.dungeoncrawlers.com/wp/wp-content/uploads/2009/05/imperial-firebase-1.jpg - IIRC the fluff was essentially these were created from pre-fabricated chunks which were airdropped into place and welded together by Servitors as needed. I could see something like this working for Marines (drop in some big solid walls from Thunderhawks in situations where there isn't enough cover or you need a forward outpost).

EDIT: If you're after alternate Aegis lines, there are a few in the Wargamma range here: http://www.mrdandy.com/wargamma-linked-barricades/

Inquisitor Kallus
26-12-2013, 23:58
I would hope new codexes include buildings/fortifications etc for their armies. It would be nice to see army specific missions and the like too in codexes.

Ambience 327
27-12-2013, 13:10
I am definitely in favor of this. I've acutally included army-specific fortifications in several of my home-brew codex books.

My Arbites Codex has Pre-Fab Barricade Lines, which are similar to Aegis lines but with different upgrade options, and the Sector House, which is similar to a Bastion but again has different upgrade options.

My Genestealer Cult Codex has Hidden Tunnels, which allows you to place small markers around the table that allow your units to arrive from Reserve via the tunnels. They can also be upgraded with "Sapper Dens" which allow you to deploy a special Zealot model equipped with a "Martyr Harness" for some human bomb action.

My Harlequins have Webway Rifts, which are temporary Webway portals that are treated as part of the Harlequins' table edge for the entirety of the game, are wreathed in coruscating warpfire that damages nearby non-Harlequins, and are also a bit unstable and can be "closed" via enemy shooting. They can also be used by either side to move around the table, though only Harlequins can do so reliably.

Camman1984
27-12-2013, 14:07
My friend has a totem of gorkamorka he uses as a sanctum imperialis for his irks or whatever that statue is called. I'd like to see stuff like that.

Maybe torture racks that cause fear in any enemies that the dark eldar could use to bolster their CC units. Or maybe soul siphons that work like the pain engine. (Bit of soulstorm there too).

For the tyranids, a spore chimney that reduces the armour of all flyers within 24inches by one because of corrosive spores, makes it easier for them to defeat flyers without giving then a quad gun like mechanic.

Banishment wards or ley lines for the greyknights giving them a roll like the demons codex gets, either screwing with enemy morale, shrouding friendly units, preventing deepstrike and the like. Similar in effect to the warpquake powers but on a larger and rawer scale.

Just a few of my suggestions.

Erorior
29-12-2013, 15:41
To be honest I don't expect to see any Xenos terrain or rules for it from GW other than the suggestion that we use the Unique Terrain option to craft our own as players.

The reason for this would be math + GW-panty-uproar factor. At some point GW math showed them that it's more worthwhile to continually produce imperial terrain than to spend equal design time or money producing Xenos terrain. Mind you I'm not saying it wouldn't make money, just that it wouldn't make as much money, something we would call: ignoring a profit center. At the same time they don't want to create rules for things they don't offer as a model (uproar factor), it just lets other companies fulfill that demand they are not willing to satisfy.

That is why we're starting to see more Independant miniature shops focus on creating Xenos analogues to Imperial scenery and capturing that profit center GW ignores like chapter house or micro art studio do with Xenos defense lines or unique Xenos style terrain like miniaturescenery did.

Unfortunately, you have a point. But would it be that much to ask from GW to at least include rules for specific pieces of fortifications in an army's codex? It's not like they have left us without models for extended periods of time before... :shifty:

Menthak
29-12-2013, 18:22
But would it be that much to ask from GW to at least include rules for specific pieces of fortifications in an army's codex?

Yes. But there is nothing stopping you making house-rules/scratch-built scenery

AmKhaibitu
30-12-2013, 11:11
Having official rules to purchase race specific weapons for the fortifications would be a token nod in our direction as not everybody is imperial, or even human.
Then we'd have rules and it would be a simple job to change the actual weapons.

They'd never do that though, not unless they were going to produce fortification race specific weapons, which will never happen.

malisteen
30-12-2013, 11:20
I expect official fortifications for non-imperial forces to start showing up if and only if we start seeing fortifications and the fortification data slate incorporated into into the codeces themselves.

Fable
30-12-2013, 13:00
Unfortunately, you have a point. But would it be that much to ask from GW to at least include rules for specific pieces of fortifications in an army's codex? It's not like they have left us without models for extended periods of time before... :shifty:

To create the rules they would need to create the terrain. With the decision not to make Xenos terrain there will be no rules made by GW for them.

If they were intent on making Xenos terrain rules we'd have seen them in Stronghold Assault, the perfect place for them. In fact there is only one piece of terrain in that book with model and, funny enough no description, and that's the Void Shield Generator. I'd expect we see one of those released by GW no later than June.

The ease which Indy modellers can come up with alternative models has caused GW to move to the no model no rules pattern we see now.

malisteen
30-12-2013, 14:46
The decision not to do terrain/fortifications for other factions is a little silly, even if it were only one or two kits per faction. After all, xenos factions don't sell as many regular models as regular marines either, but you don't see them cancelling the entire eldar or ork lines and just saying 'use/convert marine models'.

Fable
30-12-2013, 20:49
The decision not to do terrain/fortifications for other factions is a little silly, even if it were only one or two kits per faction. After all, xenos factions don't sell as many regular models as regular marines either, but you don't see them cancelling the entire eldar or ork lines and just saying 'use/convert marine models'.

With the insertion of allies the bulk of armies have imperial units and if we throw CSM in there it also has former imperial units. The decision does not stem from Xenos terrain not being profitable. It stems from the development costs being more profitable when invested in more imperial terrain.

Let's say you know it takes a year to write a book and before you start writing you know you'd make 20 grand by releasing a novel about zombies, but you'd make 60 grand by releasing a novel about vampires, you'd end up writing a book about vampires. That, in a nutshell, is the situation they've been presented and the decision they've made.

Because of things like the Chapterhouse suit we won't see those Xenos terrain rules. The narrative is taking place within the Imperium of Man, full stop.

Lord Damocles
30-12-2013, 21:06
Necrons:

Scarab Hive (burp out Scarab bases like Spyders)
Obelisk (Particle Whip on a pole)
Summoning Core (Replenish Warriors like a Ghost Ark)
Tomb Entrance/Portal (Dimensional Corridor in a frame)
Gauss Turret (Gauss/Heavy Gauss Cannon emplaced weapon)
Tesla Annihilator emplacement
Power Relay (Re-roll to hit/wound within X")
Defence Fields (barricades you can see through)
Phase Shift Generator (5++ within 12")
Resurrection Amplifier (boosted Resurrection Protocols)
Power Node (bonus objective)
C'tan Obelisk (bonus based on C'tan chosen)
Teleportation Matrix Node (reserves enter by deep strike within 6")

Erorior
01-01-2014, 13:45
What would the Tau have instead of fortifications? They don't rely on holding positions for long, but does that mean that they don't employ walls, barricades etc at all?

Except for some kind of more tau-like gun emplacements (e.g. missile pod anti-air turrets), maybe some kind of stationary disruption pod, giving stealth within a set distance? Maybe even some kind of targeting beacon to confer the "extra shot when stationary-power" of the fireblade to one unit within 12"?

Or maybe something to actually encourage the fluff-stated mobility that is described?

Lord Damocles
01-01-2014, 13:50
Tau already have sensor towers and drone sentry turrets from Forgeworld.

They used to have area denial nodes in Apocalypse. They have barricades and landing platforms in the studio terrain collection.

Kakapo42
02-01-2014, 00:23
What would the Tau have instead of fortifications? They don't rely on holding positions for long, but does that mean that they don't employ walls, barricades etc at all?

Except for some kind of more tau-like gun emplacements (e.g. missile pod anti-air turrets), maybe some kind of stationary disruption pod, giving stealth within a set distance? Maybe even some kind of targeting beacon to confer the "extra shot when stationary-power" of the fireblade to one unit within 12"?

Or maybe something to actually encourage the fluff-stated mobility that is described?

- Railgun-armed area denial stations (there used to be rules for these in apocalypse, and you can see examples of them in Planetstrike).

- Run'al. A camouflaged bunker with no direct weapons, but a number of markerlight turrets.

- Sensor towers and sentry turrets from forgeworld.

- Energy shield generator.

- Stealth field generator.

Tau use plenty of fortifications, normally to provide a safe area to fall back to if things go belly-up or to guard important locations, using drone-controlled security systems to free up Firewarriors for mobile offensive actions.

DoctorTom
02-01-2014, 02:15
I think we'll have to rely on Forgeworld for Xenos fortifications. I don't see any rules coming out without models. Unfortunately.

It's a shame, since all they would need to do for rules is to use some of the same stats for some of the Imperial fortifications but change the weapons that are used. (You'd want it looking different though for some Xenos - Orks though can get by with "looted" fortifications though).

lantzkev
02-01-2014, 03:12
seriously look at chapter house studios for their kickstart xenos fort. They basically made aegis lines with quad/lass for every race.

Ambience 327
02-01-2014, 13:28
Yes, and skilled terrain makers do the same thing. However, "Army Specific Fortifications", to me at least, means different fortifications with unique rules and abilities, designed to fit the theme and play style of the army in question, not just a re-skinned Aegis line or Bastion.

Erorior
02-01-2014, 14:49
However, "Army Specific Fortifications", to me at least, means different fortifications with unique rules and abilities, designed to fit the theme and play style of the army in question, not just a re-skinned Aegis line or Bastion.

Indeed, as previously stated that was the purpose of this thread. It just doesn't feel right to put my DE behind an Aegis, even if the design of the wall is appropriate.

malisteen
03-01-2014, 13:40
The decision does not stem from Xenos terrain not being profitable. It stems from the development costs being more profitable when invested in more imperial terrain.

That's entirely the point. By that same logic, they should stop producing non-imperial anything, because any non-imperial products, be they fortifications, units, vehicles, or books, have lower profit margins when compared to the development costs than imperial equivalents. This logic doesn't stop being true when you look at products other than fortifications.