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The Dude
09-06-2006, 05:44
Iíve refined my idea for representing Ork Clanz somewhat since last time I posted it. Now, rather than just a 2 axis matrix with Tech level on one axis and Combat preference on another, Iíve added the extra value of looting vs self built weapons/vehicles.

http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g45/Stickchap/OrkTraits.jpg

As you can see from the diagram, the Clanz fit in nicely on the extreme edges of this Hex-diagram. The concept would be that the middle hex is the bulk standard Ork army, with all itís limitations etc. As you move out from the centre to one of the extremes, the restrictions change. So for example, the ďvanillaĒ list may have a 0-1 restriction on Flash Gitz, but if you move towards Shooty, the restriction is dropped, however you now canít take any Skar Boyz.

In addition to this, the Clanz sit sort of between two traits, like Bad Moons sit between Meky and Shooty, meaning they have a lot of wargear, and prefer to blast away with big noisy gunz. Because the Clanz are special, they would get the best (and worst) of both of these traits, plus maybe a special unit upgrade, like Outriders for Evil Sunz, which could give a Bike Mob the Scouts USR for a points cost.

Now I havenít though through exactly what restrictions and special units could apply, but any comments of the system in general, and particularly what restrictions and special units would fit well, would be great.

IG88
09-06-2006, 06:18
Would you be able to take two "steps" in a specific direction, such as double specializing in Shooty to the total exclusion of Choppy and detriment of the other Orky aspects? What would that do?

The Dude
09-06-2006, 06:35
I hadn't planned on it, but If you can think of an example of what it could do, let me know :)

I'd also just like to take this opportunity to clarify the terms Meky and Squigy.

Meky is, of course, the propensity towards bizarre wargear and higher tech weapons like Zzap Gunz.

Squiggy is the propensity to use "battle squigs" like Squiggoths and Squig Riders. Possibly Squig powered transports?

Keep the thoughts coming. :D

lord_blackfang
09-06-2006, 07:35
A very interesting idea.

I don't know if Deathskullz are all that Squiggy though. All the other fit perfectly.

Kelpi
09-06-2006, 09:59
I like it, its the most straightfoward Ork trait system/diagram I have seen yet.

Tonberry
09-06-2006, 10:06
Woot, that is actually a brilliant idea, if only GW could do things that simply whilst still giving an accurate representation of things.

Kriegsherr
09-06-2006, 10:08
Very clever idea! I think it suits the orky way perfectly and is far better than the marine trait system.

Now we could write down the change into the hexes.

Like Shooty:

Pros:
Flash gitz no longer 0-1
Huntaz instead of Shoota boyz
artillery no longer 0-2
some shooty stuff for nobz like more kustom weapons

Cons:
Skarboyz 0-1
Stormboyz 0-1
Sluggaboyz 0-2
powerklaw not available anymore for nobz

scarvet
09-06-2006, 13:06
Very good, but I think you should be able to do let's say: meky & lootaz. It will be possible, but you have to take more draw back like the Marines

Crube
09-06-2006, 13:08
Cool. - I like it.

I would say that the DeathSkulls would be more Shooty and Lootas though, ratherthan Squiggy...

Maybe only the Snakebites as Squiggy...?

metallegion
09-06-2006, 13:33
What about sneaky?

Kriegsherr
09-06-2006, 13:51
Sneaky should be also in, yes. And Shouty as the other extreme

Toppan
09-06-2006, 16:18
now i dont want to start an argument on what the position of the feral orks is in the natural ork klannish universe, but i know i am not a snakebite, nor a goff, or anything other than a boarboss of the Big 'Nife feral ork tribe!
put ferals and freebooters in there, a long with Sneaky and...uh...maybe something to do with the wierdboys?

schoon
09-06-2006, 16:38
Very interesting, but you needn't restrict yourself to the hex diagram (though it's a nice visual aid).

You can simply have sets of diametrically opposed traits - if you take an "advatage" from one, you cannot use its opposite. Meky <-> Squigy Shooty <-> Choppy Buildy <-> Looty More if necessary...

Makaber
09-06-2006, 17:28
Allright, first of all, the diagram is pretty damn good. It's a nice layout.

Secondly. The traits system is a nice enough idea, but fundamentally flawed. Instead of encouraging themed and characterful lists reflecting a certain aspect of the army in question, they'll be picked on the sole basis of what kind of advantages they give, and more importantly, their restrictions on units the player wouldn't use in any case.

The Dude
13-06-2006, 07:15
A very interesting idea.

I don't know if Deathskullz are all that Squiggy though. All the other fit perfectly.

Yeah, I was a little concerned about that myself. Meky and Squigy were new terms I used instead of high tech and low tech. I saw the Deathskullz as more "low tech" because they tend to loot stuff and were supersticious (blue warpaint). Possibly changing the term back to High-Tech/Low-Tech would be better.


What about sneaky?

Sneaky should be also in, yes. And Shouty as the other extreme

I understand where you're coming from here, but I think it's putting too many in myself. I can see that Blood Axes would come under "Sneaky", and Goffs under "shouty" but I think the division is pretty well represented with what's there. You can see Goffs and Blood Axes are opposite each other, with Goffs occupying the "Choppy/Buildaz" position of "True Orkdom" (i.e. fighting like an Ork with Ork weapons) whereas Blood Axes are "Shooty/Lootaz", doing things in a quintcentially "un-Orky" fashion (i.e. sooting at the enemy with their own guns ;)).

However, this doesn't solve the problem of representing a Kommando force. This, I feel could be done through the Blood Axe Clan rules themselves.


now i dont want to start an argument on what the position of the feral orks is in the natural ork klannish universe, but i know i am not a snakebite, nor a goff, or anything other than a boarboss of the Big 'Nife feral ork tribe!
put ferals and freebooters in there, a long with Sneaky and...uh...maybe something to do with the wierdboys?

How terribly remiss of me to forget the Ferals and Freebooters :).
Ferals, I think, could be represented by a Squigy or low-tech force. If we use a 2-step system, they could be the extreme of Squigy/Low-Tech.
Freebooters I'm not so sure of. Surely they are just a warband which is unaligned to any particular Clan or Warlord. I dunno :confused:. If this is so, then they could fit in anywhere.


Very interesting, but you needn't restrict yourself to the hex diagram (though it's a nice visual aid).

You can simply have sets of diametrically opposed traits - if you take an "advatage" from one, you cannot use its opposite.
Meky <-> Squigy
Shooty <-> Choppy
Buildy <-> Looty
More if necessary...

This is a good idea, and it allows you to take advantage of multiples. The Clanz, therefore, could be represented by using the prescribed combination of traits (eg Meky/Buildy for Evil Sunz).

With some good disadvantages for taking 2 (or even 3?), you would start to see some really cool Ork forces.

So, to continue with this idea then, We could have:

Meky <-> Squigy
Shooty <-> Choppy
Buildy <-> Looty
Shouty<-> Sneaky

What sorts of advantages/disadvantages can you see for each of these.

Kriegsherr has suggested this for Shooty:

Pros:
Flash gitz no longer 0-1
Huntaz instead of Shoota boyz
artillery no longer 0-2
some shooty stuff for nobz like more kustom weapons

Cons:
Skarboyz 0-1
Stormboyz 0-1
Sluggaboyz 0-2
powerklaw not available anymore for nobz

For Sneaky I can imagine not being able to use Waaagh! tests as a Disadvantage.

Any other ideas?


The traits system is a nice enough idea, but fundamentally flawed. Instead of encouraging themed and characterful lists reflecting a certain aspect of the army in question, they'll be picked on the sole basis of what kind of advantages they give, and more importantly, their restrictions on units the player wouldn't use in any case.

Well... yes and no. I would take it as a good thing that the disadvantages taken by people compliment their play style. It means they are then able to take a force that rewards them for playing to their theme. As for them being picked on the sole basis of what kinds of advantages they give, well I can't see why else you would take them, can you? ;) The trick is making all option just as good, so that no one becomes the "default" choice.

Mikari
13-06-2006, 09:16
Doesn't building and looting go hand in hand with Orks?

Also Goths and Snakebites need to be closer (they're next to each other yes). They're more or less both choppy and squigy.

kaptin_blacksquigg
13-06-2006, 10:43
I must say I like the way this is going, sound really cool.
How about 2 levels of diversion from the norm in each dimensions
eg. Mega-shooty, Shooty, Normal, Choppy, Ded-Choppy
This would give even more variation and I think would better represent some clans, e.g. Feral Orks would be Really-Squiggy and shooty
Where snake bites would be Squiggy and choppy
Goffs would be Ded-choppy.

Probably put a limit of 3 minor diversions, or 1 major%

Kriegsherr
14-06-2006, 12:27
I must say I like the way this is going, sound really cool.
How about 2 levels of diversion from the norm in each dimensions
eg. Mega-shooty, Shooty, Normal, Choppy, Ded-Choppy
This would give even more variation and I think would better represent some clans, e.g. Feral Orks would be Really-Squiggy and shooty
Where snake bites would be Squiggy and choppy
Goffs would be Ded-choppy.

Probably put a limit of 3 minor diversions, or 1 major%

Sounds very good. I could see that in the first layer you get a lot of new 0-1 / 0-2 Restrictions / Restrictions dropped, some wargear shift and a small amount of 0-1 Units beeing kicked out, and in the second layer a lot of units kicked out, wargear kicked out, some new units / wargear added.

The Dude
15-06-2006, 01:49
Doesn't building and looting go hand in hand with Orks?

Building and Looting are diametric opposites of each other. the Idea is that the orks either prefer to build their own stuff from scrap, or just take the best stuff they find and use that. Both types may find a Heavy Bolter on the field, but one would rather take it to bits for parts than use it as is.


Also Goths and Snakebites need to be closer (they're next to each other yes). They're more or less both choppy and squigy.

I didn't think Goffs were overly Squiggy. They utilise Stompas and Battlewagons. Hell, Gazkull wears Mega Armour.


eg. Mega-shooty, Shooty, Normal, Choppy, Ded-Choppy
This would give even more variation and I think would better represent some clans, e.g. Feral Orks would be Really-Squiggy and shooty
Where snake bites would be Squiggy and choppy
Goffs would be Ded-choppy.

Probably put a limit of 3 minor diversions, or 1 major%

Yep, sounds cool. I think it would be better with 3 minor or 1 major and 1 minor. These of course cannot come from opposites. I don't think there would need to be any Disadvantages, as they would come from the divergances taken.

How does this sound:

Choppy:
0-2 Skarboyz
1+ Slugga Boyz
0-2 Shoota Boyz
0-1 Big Gunz
No Flash Gitz
No Storm Boyz

Ded Choppy:
Unrestricted Skarboyz (full size mobs with Nob count as Troops)
2+ Slugga Boyz
No Shoota Boyz
No Flash Gitz
No Big Gunz
No Kustom Shootaz

Shooty:
0-2 Flash Gitz
1+ Shoota Boyz
0-2 Slugga Boyz
No Skarboyz

Ded Shooty:
Unrestricted Flash Gitz (full size mobs with Nob count as Troops)
2+ Shoota Boyz
No Slugga Boyz
No Skarboyz
No Nobz Mobz (they don't see cc enough to get that many big guys)
No Power Clawz
No Big Choppaz

Meky:
Unrestricted Killa Kanz
1+ Stickbommaz
0-2 Tankbustaz
0-1 Squig Riderz
0-1 Squiggoth

Ded Meky:
Unrestricted Killa Canz (full strength units count as Troops)
Drednoughtz 1-3 per HS slot
0-3 Tankbustaz
1+ MekBoss
0-1 Warboss
2+ Stickbommaz
No Squig Riderz
No Squiggoth
No Squig Catapaultz (I really want to see this one come back :D)
No Squig Based Wargear (Attack Squig etc)

Squigy:
0-2 Squig Riderz
0-2 Squiggoth
0-1 Stickbommaz
0-1 Tankbustaz
Killa Kans 1 per HS slot
0-1 Drednoughtz
0-1 Mekboyz (including Burna Boyz)

Ded Squigy:
Unrestricted Squig Riderz (full strength units count as Troops)
Unrestricted Squiggothz
No Killa Canz
No Drednoughtz
No Zzap Gunz
No Mega Armour
No Mekboyz
No Burna Boyz
No Bioniks (not sure about this one)

Buildy:
Trucks count as transports for Troops choices numbering 10 or less
Unrestricted Battlewagons
0-2 Stompaz
0-1 Looted Vehicle
0-1 Lootaz

Ded Buildy:
Full size Bikez Mobz with Nob count as Troops
0-1 Bike Mobz may be upgraded to Outriders (get Scouts USR and become Elites)
Trucks count as transports for Troops choices numbering 10 or less
Unrestricted Battlewagons (count as Transport for HQ and Elites Choices numbering 20 or less)
Unrestricted Stompaz
No Looted Vehicles
No Lootaz
May take Bikez for Warboss and Retinue

Looty:
Unrestricted Lootaz
Unrestricted Looted Vehicles
Truck Boyz may upgrade Truck to a Looted Rhino or Chimera for X points
No Stompaz
0-1 Battlewagonz
0-1 Bike Mobz

Ded Looty:
Unrestricted Lootaz
Lootaz may take a Looted Rhino or Chimera for X points
Unrestricted Looted Vehicles
any Mob may upgrade Big Shootas to Heavy Bolters for X pts and Rokkit Launchers to Missile Launchers at Ypts
'Ard Boyz Mobz may be taken as Troops (they loot the armour plates)
Truck Boyz may upgrade Truck to a Looted Rhino or Chimera for X points
No Stompaz
No Battlewagonz
No Bike Mobz
HQ may take looted Landraider as transport

Therefore:

Goff - Ded Choppy and Buildy
Evil Sunz - Ded Buildy and Meky
Bad Moonz - Ded Shooty and Meky
Death Skulls - Ded Looty and Shooty
Snakebitez - Ded Squigy and Choppy

I can't really think of sneaky/Shouty at the moment, aside from not using Waaagh! for Ded Sneaky, but this is of course where Blood Axes would come in. Probably Ded Sneaky and Looty.

Help me out here!

Edit: Changed a few things ;)

Toppan
15-06-2006, 02:22
again, you forget the ferals!
course, theyd be ded looty, squigy, and choppy, and shooty and buildy lol...gotta make their own junkas, raise their own squigs, no real big guns so theyre choppy, and they loot from other orks for weapons
eek

The Dude
15-06-2006, 02:45
Not being overly familiar with the Feral lists, I just imagined they'd be Ded Squiggy and Choppy.

Come to think of it, I don't see why you couldn't have as many divergences as you wanted, as long as they weren't opposites. I mean the restrictions can be quite severe.

The Dude
15-06-2006, 04:40
Okay. I've had a think about the whole Sneaky/Shouty thing and here's what I've got so far...

Sneaky:
Unlimited Kommandoz
0-1 Shoota Boyz/Slugga Boyz can be given Infiltrate at X pts per model
0-1 Trakz/Buggyz
0-1 Storm Boyz
0-1 Kannonz (far too loud ;))

Ded Sneaky:
Unlimited Kommandoz (Max sized unit with Nob counts as Troops)
All Shoota Boyz/Slugga Boyz can be given Infiltrate at X pts per model
No Trakz/Buggyz
No Kannonz
No Storm Boyz
Cannot use Powers of the Waaagh! tests

Edit: I cracked it!!! The opposite of Kommandoz is Storm Boyz! They both surprise the enemy with lightning assaults, but one does it rather more noisily :D.

Shouty:
All Nobs Have free Bosspole/Iron Gob wargear.
0-2 Storm Boyz
0-1 Kommandoz take 1 Elites and 1 Fast Attack slot
Warboss may re-roll of the Powers of the Waaagh! tests

Ded Shouty:
All Nobs Have free Bosspole/Iron Gob wargear.
Unlimited Kannonz
No Kommandoz
Unlimited Storm Boyz (max size Mob with Nob counts as Fast Attack)
Warboss may re-roll of the Powers of the Waaagh! tests
All Mobz with a Nob may re-roll of the Powers of the Waaagh! tests.

starlight
15-06-2006, 05:12
<votes for The Dude for damn fine WaarghBoss>:D

Damn Dude, you've sussed out a fine plan there.:D

The Dude
15-06-2006, 05:18
It needs tinkering and I still can't seem to satisfy Toppan and his lust for Feral Orks ;), but it's getting there.

starlight
15-06-2006, 05:31
It's ten times better than I've seen from GW.

Ferals are the beginning of every Ork group. I'd say Squiggy, Choppy and Sneaky. It's possible that the existing Feral list may have to go bye-bye in the interests of a better Codex.

However if you could imagine the above hex in three dimensions...directly below the centre would be the Ferals, where all Orks come from. The centre is Freebooterz, or the generic mass o' mobs that is a *vanilla* force. Above the Freebooterz would be the Kult of Speed, which represents the Technological pinnacle of Orkdom.

The Dude
15-06-2006, 05:41
It's ten times better than I've seen from GW.

Oh Mr Starlight. You do go on...;)

I've gone bright green.


Ferals are the beginning of every Ork group. I'd say Squiggy, Choppy and Sneaky.

I think Sneaky may be too "out there" for a Feral force, it being such an Un-Orky concept.


It's possible that the existing Feral list may have to go bye-bye in the interests of a better Codex.

That may well be the case.

Maybe putting Wierdboyz and Madboyz in the generic list will help here. that way a Ded Squigy force could lower the restriction on them or something.

starlight
15-06-2006, 05:52
Yup, I'd rather see a wider range of base units available (which would make Freebooters cool), with more restrictions depending on the type of choices made (to give the Klans more character). I *know* I'd build more Ork Armies if they implemented your system.:D

Oops, was that out loud?:(

The Dude
15-06-2006, 06:03
So pretty much all the "Special" units (Kommandoz, Storm Boyz etc) as 0-1 choices with restrictions lifted depending on where you go with your traits? I think that'd work quite well.

starlight
15-06-2006, 06:24
Yeah, something like that. Freebooterz get a taste of *everything*, but if you want more of any specific shiny stuff, you have to give up the stuff on the opposite side. The further you go, the more you get *and* give up.

Sort of like Doctrines for IG - the base list gets everything, the doctrines are more restrictive, but you get things in greater numbers or with different options if you specialise.

IG88
15-06-2006, 07:48
I was writing out a rough outline of my ideas for a one- to two-step specializations based on the Meky/Squiggy, Choppy/Shooty, Buildy/Looty, Sneaky/Shouty dualities last night (it was, like all thing I do, overly exahustive and way too long), but it got too late and I fell asleep before finishing it. Of course, a lot of my ideas mirrored what had been said before, and startlingly many things closely match what you just came up with, The Dude (except, for instance, I considered Deep Striking Storm Boyz to be a "sneaky" kind of thing). If I make it home at a reasonable hour tonight I'll polish it off and post it. But really, once you frame the Orks as able to specialize along these four dualities everything just sort of falls into place. Hopefully GW catches wind and thinks it's as good an idea as we all do.

Edit: just to throw this in, I personally think that Codex: Space Marine's ala carte method of picking disadvantages is the main source of rampant abuse (remind me again why you'd ever take Death Before Dishonor?), so in order to miss both the "something for nothing" problem (like plagued 3rd Edition Black Templar and Blood Angels) and the "default non-disadvantage" problem (like We Stand A-*******'-lone), or the easily side-steppable restricted unit problem (like with IG Doctrines), all specializations should come with built-in disadvantages that directly reflect a divergence from the other side of the spectrum and should go beyond simply restricting certain unit types. The goal should be to make non-specialized Orks just as attractive as those who do specialize; something that was supposed to happen with codex-adherent Marines and vanilla Guard but ended up, at least in my experience, never happening at all ever anywhere ever at any time ever never never.

Reabe
15-06-2006, 08:04
This all sounds great! If this were to be the Ork rules, I'd start making an Ork army right now! :D

Grubnar
17-06-2006, 23:27
Has anyone mentioned the absense of weirdboyz?

I was kinda hoping Im not the only one that is missing the Ork eadbangers.
They could be done a bit like the meks and doks in the current codex, with weirdboyz beeing like the meks and doks and warpheads beeing like a big mek/painboss. You could also have madboys as an elite choise beeing led by a weirdboy (if the feral orks list is going the way of the squats!).

Big Proppa
18-06-2006, 03:44
Great stuff here =)

A couple of thoughts about units and what I would still use came to mind.

For instance if I were ded sneaky all my sluggas/shooters are far better than Kommando's(can take more than 10, more than 1 heavy weapon, armor etc). Why would I take the 'vanilla' Kommando unit? Doesn't this idea make the Kommando obsolete as a unit choice per say ?

Applying that kind logic backwards thru the list and reviewing how you moved things around the Org chart would be a good idea I'm thinking. ie some testing is in order for sure to grow your idea further.
---------------

I very very much like the built in disdvantage idea; you can head one way but are leaving something behind. A sound idea.

An idea occured to me that might help or be useless, thought I would share.

Instead of trying to make opposites in the Klan lists; just make paths to Freakdom with the give and take built in.

Perhaps instead of DED this or that... You make it this or that FREAKS.
(ie Mek Freaks, Speed Freaks, Squig Freaks, etc)
to represent your second tier choice or level of dedication or whatever.

--Therefore some Evil Sunz can be Speed Freaks; but you could still have a Evil Sunz army without being a Speed Freak.

Hope that made some sense and is useful.

It has never set right with me that the Evil Sunz are being ursurped into the Speed Freaks. With your model and a couple adjustments they could be Mek Freaks and Shouty Freaks. Cybork Army of doom but no extra trukks heheh.

And why can't a Goff be Squigy ? =) ?
I think you get the idea.

I imagine you will find alot players with pet lists/Klanz that do not fit neatly into the model. Perhaps the model should be flexible enough to accomodate them ??

Ferals are a headache? Feral Freaks...(dey never evoluted like proppa boyz er sumfing)

Anyhow, I hope that ramble is useful food for thought.
Me

Kriegsherr
18-06-2006, 13:38
For the sneaky part:

0-2 Kommando mobz could be allowed to deepstrike instead of infiltrate by using parachutes. This would be far sneakier than deepstriking storm boyz and would allow some real ***kicking konversions.

Toppan
18-06-2006, 20:38
damn...reddanek was right, theres a lot of feral hate here. one, why are ferals dying out? two, they probably would be looty squigy and choppy. three, you could take big proppa's idea and make a tiered system. have freeks at top, klans in the middle, and feral (goffs, evil sunz...you get the idea) and go from there.

starlight
18-06-2006, 20:55
I'm just not seeing any hatred of Ferals anywherehereabouts, just recognition that they may be harder to fit into *this system*.:eyebrows: I'm also not seeing anyone who's making such claims coming up with some workable suggestions....:eyebrows:

I suspect that people are forgetting that this is a *discussion*, not an attempt to lay down the law. Without a lively exchange of *all* ideas, we'll end up like the GW Forums Groupthink.:eek:

Toppan: Since Da reddaneks hasn't even posted here (that I've seen), I think that you may wish to let him speak for himself. There isn't *any* hate going on, just an exchange of ideas that we might like to see.:eyebrows:

Kriegsherr
18-06-2006, 20:56
I had a vision today.... why don't just do a extented version of the marine traits, just do it proppa this time.

There are 8 different deviations an ork army can take. If the army only take advantages and disadvantages from one deviation, they can choose 5 advantages/disadvantages. If they want to take them from 2 different deviations, they can choose up to two of each. If they choose from 3 different, they can have one of each.

The Deviations are:

Shooty, Choppy, Shouty, Sneaky, Meky, Squigy, Looty, Buildy

Armies that take a/d from different deviations can't choose shooty and choppy a/d's, shouty and sneaky, meky and squigy, or looty and buildy as they are opposite extremes of each other.

All Deviations have 5 or more advantages and disadvantages. For every advantage you take, you must take one disadvantage.


Shooty

Shooty ork hordez have more gunz than anyone else, but they tend to overlook the fact that the strength of an ork lies more in close combat than in firefights.

Advantages


Shooty grots

All grots in the army have to be upgraded to shooty grots at +1 Point per grot. Shooty grots weapon are upgraded to rapid fire 24" weapons, strength and AP remains the same (This can either be looted imperial las or assault guns, or smaller versions of the ork shootas)

All grot mobs can have up to one weapon team with a special weapon per 10 grots in the mob, either a big shoota (7 Points), a rockit (5 Points), or a Skorcha (3 Points).
Because of the puny strength of grots, the special weapon are treated as heavy weapons instead of assault weapons.

The shooty grots can't be used to clear min fields as no warboss wants to blow up all the shiny special weapons with the grots, all other special rules are the same as with normal grot mobs.


We need more shootaz

All shoota mobz can take up to 6 big shootas, but can only take big shootas if they use this option and pay 16 points per big shoota.


We need more rockitz

All tankbusta mobz can take up to 6 big rockitz, but if they use this option they pay 14 points per rockit.


Lots of big gunz

You can take 1-2 Batteries per Heavy support choice. This means you can have up to 4 Batteries.


Blasta Buggies

You can take one Blasta Buggy squadron as fast attack choice.


Dakkier kanz

All Killa Kanz have to replace their Dread CC-Weapon with a second big shoota, Rockit or scorcha.

(more to come)


Disadvantages


Who needz choppaz

The orks carry so much ammo and shooty stuff with them they no longer can carry heavy Closecombat weapons.
No normal orks carries a choppa anymore. All ork normally equipped with choppaz now only carry normal CC-Weapons, but cost one point less.
Nobz can still carry Choppaz or uge choppaz, but they can't have powerklaws anymore.


Gimme a shoota!

No slugga boyz, skar boyz or stikkbommers can't be taken anymore


The bosses want to be shootier

All character have to be equipped with a twohanded shooting weapon


(and others)


Choppy

Choppy ork hordez think the orkiest way to win is to chop up the enemy in Close combat. All shooty things are weedy and best left with grots.


Advantages


skary orks!

Skar boyz can be taken as troop choice


uge choppaz for everyone

All boyz that have choppaz can exchange them and their sluggaz for uge choppaz at +2 points per boy.


Choppier Dreadz!

All Dreadz and Killa Kanz exchange their shooting weapons for Dread CC-Weapons (+15P for Dreadz). Dreadz now have 5 attacks, kans 3.


(and more)


Disadvantages


Shootaz are weedy!

No shoota boyz, lootas, or flash gitz can be taken. No boyz that can have choppaz can take shootas instead.


Kill them all!

Every ork unit that can get into Closecombat has to charge. The consolidation move has to bring them nearer to the closest enemy

(and more)


Meky

Meky hordes have a lot of meks and use a lot of "hai-tekk" equipment.

Advantages


Fancy weapons

All ork mobz can take a kustom mega blasta as special weapon for +15 Points each.


shoota crazy

Flash gitz are not longer 0-1. All boyz that can have shootaz can give their shootaz kustom jobs like flash gits.


Lots of meks
The Warboss can be upgraded to a mega-mek for +5 points and can take then wargear for meks.
All mobz can have a mek assigned for +10 Points.

(More to come)

noneedforaname
18-06-2006, 21:34
how about a dodecahedron?

The Dude
19-06-2006, 01:55
Great stuff here =)

A couple of thoughts about units and what I would still use came to mind.

For instance if I were ded sneaky all my sluggas/shooters are far better than Kommando's(can take more than 10, more than 1 heavy weapon, armor etc). Why would I take the 'vanilla' Kommando unit? Doesn't this idea make the Kommando obsolete as a unit choice per say ?

Ooh, hadn't really thought of this :angel: .

I suppose you could make the cost to upgrage to Infiltrators a little prohibitative. Plus there are options such as stickbombz and Tankbusta Bombz that make Kommandoz a good choice.

As for the supposed Feral "hate", I can only say that most of the problems pointed out (ie lack of Wierd/Mad Boyz) could be alleviated through their inclusion in the generic list. Hence why I included things such as the Squiggoth and even Squig Riders (which do not exist in anything other than rumour AFAIK).

I have to say that I really don't like the idea of giving people the option of what disadvantages to take. Seriously, it just opens the door for people to find the 'power combo' that kicks **** rather than a disadvantage that characterfully and fairly offsets the advantages taken. This is the whole reason I attempted to prescribe the disadvantages in the first place.


Perhaps instead of DED this or that... You make it this or that FREAKS.
(ie Mek Freaks, Speed Freaks, Squig Freaks, etc)
to represent your second tier choice or level of dedication or whatever.

--Therefore some Evil Sunz can be Speed Freaks; but you could still have a Evil Sunz army without being a Speed Freak.

I like this :D.

I was also thinking of changing Choppy and Shooty to Gorkas and Morkas.

Kriegsherr
19-06-2006, 09:18
I have to say that I really don't like the idea of giving people the option of what disadvantages to take. Seriously, it just opens the door for people to find the 'power combo' that kicks **** rather than a disadvantage that characterfully and fairly offsets the advantages taken. This is the whole reason I attempted to prescribe the disadvantages in the first place.


Hmmmm.... good point. Maybe giving out bundles of advantage + disadvantage? If you want "More shootaz", you also have to take "Who needz choppaz?"?
And in the case of new units, you already are dropping units for it. So no disadvantage for "shootier dreads" or "choppier dreads".

Something came to my mind. For the sneaky part, an advantage "parachutaz" would be nice. All mobz, dreadz and kanz can deploy as deepstrikers, but have to take a dangerous terrain test as the parachutes tend to not open.

Big Proppa
19-06-2006, 14:13
@The Dude
I'm glad to help, you have some rockin ideas here.
---

"Something came to my mind. For the sneaky part, an advantage "parachutaz" would be nice. All mobz, dreadz and kanz can deploy as deepstrikers, but have to take a dangerous terrain test as the parachutes tend to not open."
@Kriegsherr
LOL Great Idea! Instead of High Altitude Low Open, you have Low Altitude No Open. LANO Kombat Kommandos. Sweet, and a nice fix for the Kommandos in Sneak Freak or whatever armies. Very WWI Russian. Could also be deployed via low trajectory arty maybies heheh.

Messiah
19-06-2006, 14:54
Brilliant!

And Sneaky = Shooty..

The Dude
20-06-2006, 02:24
Could also be deployed via low trajectory arty maybies heheh.

Ha ha ha!! Like an Orky Cannonball :D.

All this is great. keep it coming.

starlight
20-06-2006, 02:39
40K Doom Divers.:evilgrin:

bloodlust
20-06-2006, 03:17
Can anyone imagine how downright SICK 'uge choppas for all would be at +2 pts a model? Wounding Space Marines on 3s and Death Gaurd on 4s would be crazy.

The Dude
20-06-2006, 03:40
Maybe for Skarboyz or 'Ardboyz, but not for Slugga Boyz.

starlight
20-06-2006, 03:45
Agreed, Bodyguards or other special units, but not regular rank and file.

The Dude
20-06-2006, 05:18
I do like the idea though :D

Kriegsherr
20-06-2006, 10:09
Maybe for Skarboyz or 'Ardboyz, but not for Slugga Boyz.

Hmmm..... now that I rethink it, you might all might be right. Dropping the sluggas is not such a drawback is it? :)
So only elite choices can get it? Or would stromboyz with uge choppaz be in-sane?



Could also be deployed via low trajectory arty maybies heheh.


How about something similar to the SM droppod.... but its a ground to ground rocket filled with boyz. And when it lands (deepstrikes), there is a good possability it explodes. So you should target an enemy unit with it. either it explodes in the middle of it (and the orks inside as well as the target unit takes casualities), or it just hits the ground and an ork mob disengages near the enemy lines. :)


"Gorks Foot" Stormrokkit


All trukker mobz can take a Stormrokkit instead of a trukk for + 60 Points. The Truckerz can't use their special rule with a rockit as it is a closed vehicle (That means they get hit on 4+ by explosions instead of a 6).

Armour: Front: 12 Side: 12 Rear: 10

Weapons: none

Specialrules: Immobile, Deepstrike.

The Stormrokkit can carry up to 12 orks


When Deepstriking, the Stormrokkit has some special rules. First, if it hits the ground, the rokkit receives a single S7 hit against its Frontarmour. Any glancing or penetrating hits cause a big explosion. The ork onboard are treated like passengers in a destroyed vehicle that has moved over 6". All models in 2W6 " distance receive a hit on 4+, they can use their normal saving throw against the hit.
If the rokkit isnt glanced or penetrated, it lands "safely". Regardless if it explodes or not, all enemy units in 6" distance from the rokkit have to take a pinning test at -1 ld, as the ground is shook by the massive rockit crashing into the ground, nearby buildings crumble and debris is hurled into all directions. The ork mob onboard also has to take a test, if they fail, they stay onboard one turn as they are stunned by the landing (they can't count headz against this test, but can use the ld of characters in the unit).
If The Rokkit lands on impassable terrain, It explodes automatically. If it lands in dangerous or difficult terrain, the hit is resolved at S8.
If it lands on an enemy squad, the squad is automatically pinned, even fearless ones. All enemy models under ther rockit or in 3" distance have to be moved the shortest distance to stay 3" away from the rokkit (they fly thru the air as the rocket hits the position they stood on seconds ago).
If it hits a vehicle, both the rokkit and the vehicle receive a S8 hit. The rockit explodes if glanced or penetrated as described above. The facing of the other vehicle is determined by were it is hit by the rockit.
If none of the both vehicles is destroyed, the rokkit is moved the shortes distance to land not on the vehicle.

Because of the inacurate nature of the rockit, the small arrow on the hit symbol is used to determine the direction if a hit is scored for the deepstriking throw, but only the higher of the two d6 is used to determine the distance.

The direction of the rokkit after the landing is determined with the artillery dice.


In CoD, every ruin it hits is turned into a dangerous ruin on a throw of 4+ and every dangerous ruin is destroyed on a throw of 4+




And Sneaky = Shooty


Not completly true. Look at the kommandoz as they are today. Not shooty at all. And I think this should be for the player to decide.
In klan terms.... yes, the only real sneaky klan are the blood axes.... and they TEND to be rather shooty.
But also the deathskullz could be described as beeing sneaky, as thieves have to get sneaky to some degree :)

The Dude
21-06-2006, 00:56
How about something similar to the SM droppod.... but its a ground to ground rocket filled with boyz. And when it lands (deepstrikes), there is a good possability it explodes. So you should target an enemy unit with it. either it explodes in the middle of it (and the orks inside as well as the target unit takes casualities), or it just hits the ground and an ork mob disengages near the enemy lines. :)


"Gorks Foot" Stormrokkit

*Standing Ovation* :D

That is simply the coolest thing to come out of this discussion yet!

The special rules are a little long winded (no offence meant ;)), and I can't see the point of it having a transport capacity of 12 if Trukkers are 5-10, but that's really cool.

I'd probably make it Armour: 14 10 10 and have it and any vehicle/unit it hits take a S10 ordinance hit. Any glancing or penetrating hits destroy it (it's immobile and has no crew or weapons so I think that would happen anyway) and the passengers are pinned.

It'd probably come under the Meky or Ded Meky trait.

Even funnier would be if the Orks just filled the Rokkit with a payload of Grots. Mmwahahahahahaha!!!!! :D

starlight
21-06-2006, 02:01
The extra capacity is for attached ICs.:evilgrin:

Big Proppa
21-06-2006, 05:57
OMG yes, standing ovation seconded.

You have this nailed Kriegsherr.
A bit 2nd edition on the rules (ie too much with the IF), but a SOLID and characterful overall idea brought to life.

Somebody lead the powers at Games Workshop into seeing this thread. Great ideas here that need some ironing, but wonderful concepts all the way through.

I gotta have this kinda stuff in the coming codex =)
Hell, I got play one of these stormrokkitz before then...

---

Back to traits, they absolutely MUST have the disadvantages built in. For proppa balance.

Proppa Orks are never afraid to win without min maxing, and the last thing I want from the coming codex is any whiny git saying I won even remotely because my codex is the best...

Just my feelin and a reminder for these type of threads to keep at heart when making new rules.

Orkz IMO are about fun and and CHARACTER first, winning is what what we do along the way.

In short,
gimme ORKZ, sure gimme a chance, but gimme my damned ORKZ (back =)).

Regards,
Me

Kriegsherr
21-06-2006, 11:51
I'd probably make it Armour: 14 10 10 and have it and any vehicle/unit it hits take a S10 ordinance hit. Any glancing or penetrating hits destroy it (it's immobile and has no crew or weapons so I think that would happen anyway) and the passengers are pinned.

It'd probably come under the Meky or Ded Meky trait.


Jup, maybe the special rules should be.... uhm... streamlined a little bit ... just not to much ;)

And I also thought about raising the front armour as the orks will only put armour at the front.... but a lot there!

Hmmm.... Maybe it should be buildy as I see it as a speed freaks choice. And I would put most speed freakz things, i mean the "more vehicles and bikes" thing, under buildy, while having the wacky weapons like mega-cannons and even weirder kustom weapons or... snotzoggas! ... under meky.


How about giving the survivors of the rokkit crash the fearless rule? because they are now filled with adrenaline and wont even notice the boyz dieing around them as they are high on "speed" and "crash-baaaam!" ;)

The ordonance hit sounds not bad. Mmmmh. But then it should be against the front armour of the vehicle hit, else it would be a little to efficient in destroying enemy armour....


To get back to the traits:

Everything should have a drawback of some sort. Maybe you have to pay for it, drop other units or get a negative special rule.

I think choosing drawbacks is maybe what makes the marine traits a little bit... badly executed.


EDIT:

Okay, I drawed a little sketch of a stormrokkit while watching south park. You know when I've got an idea, I can't just sit idle. Well, its not perfect, but I think it catches the idea. On the sides are the stormramps, One on each side (so the rokkit can be left even if one ramp is blocked by rubble or under the rokkit). The front locks not armoured enough, but I didn't had a better idea.

I can't wait until I get time to draw some rokkit boyz. And the utterly insane rokkitpilots :)

The Dude
22-06-2006, 00:13
GOLD!!!!!!!

Bright and shiney GOLD!!!!

Kriegsherr, you're my hero :D

Kriegsherr
22-06-2006, 00:21
GOLD!!!!!!!

Bright and shiney GOLD!!!!

Kriegsherr, you're my hero :D

Thanks man.... thats more than any lowly boy like me deserves.
:)

The Dude
22-06-2006, 02:11
I had started a sketch of a boy being shot out of a Kannon, but that was completely surpassed by the Storm Rokkit!!!

I'm now working on hammering out a complete "Vanilla" force list and balancing out the traits, but I'll definitely be adding the Rokkit upgrade.

Kriegsherr
22-06-2006, 08:40
Okay a quick update of the rokkitboyz rules:


Rokkitboyz mob 10 Points per boy

Rokkitboyz can be taken as fast attack in a speed freak or normal ork army, but are 0-1 in normal ork armies. They can't be taken in a feral ork list.

WS BS S T W I A LD AV
Boy 4 2 3 4 1 2 2 7 6+
Nob 4 2 4 4 2 3 3 7 6+

Mob Size:
5-10

Weapons:
Either a shoota or slugga and choppa

options:
one boy may be upgraded to a nob for +11 Points. One boy may have one of the following weapons: a big shoota for +8 Points, a rokkit for +5 Points or a burna for +6 Points.
The whole mob may be fitted with fireproof clothz for +2 Points per boy. Then they may use a 4+ save if caught in an destroyed vehicle, and an 4+(inv) against flameweapons of any sort.
The whole mob may be upgraded to rokkitboy veterans for +2 Points per boy, which gives them a 5+(inv) save because of the large amount of bioniks they have to replace lost limbs and arms (and heads :)). This may be combined with fireproof clothz, in which case it only costs +3 Points for both upgrades.

Transport:
A rokkitboy mob has to take a stormrokkit for + 60 Points as transport.

Special rules:
"Da fastest trip I've ever made.... yeeeeha"
Because the surviving rokkitboyz are still pumped with adrenaline from their trip at severl tousand kph and the following crash, they won't notice any casualities.
All rokkitboyz count as Fearless.



Stormrokkit

AV Front AV Sides AV Back
14 10 10

Special Rules:
Immobile, Deepstrike (following the rules below)

Weapons:
none

Fireslits:
none

Doors:
2, one on each side

Special rules:

When a stormrokkit deepstrikes, use the normal rules with the following exceptions:
- If a hit is scored on the artillery dice, use the small arrow on the hit sign, but only the higher of the two d6. The facing of the rockit is determined by another artillery dice, front goes were the arrow points to.
- The orks onboard receive an automatic wound on a 4+, and have to take a pinning test against which they can't count heads. If they fail it, they have to stay onboard for one turn.
- All units in 6" distance from the rokkit have to take a pinning test.
- If normal terrain is hit, the rokkit receives a S 10 AV 4 hit against its Front armour. Any penetrating hit causes a big explosion, any glancing hit an explosion. If it explodes, all orks onboard are treated as beeing in a destroyed vehicle going over 6 ". All infantry minis d6 " (or 2d6 ") away from the exploding rokkit receive an automatic wound on a 4+, against which they can take their normal saving throw.
- If the rockit hits difficult or impassable terrain, or a vehicle, the hit it receives is upgraded to a ordonance hit.
- If a vehicle is hit, it also receives a S10 AV 4 Ordonance hit against its fron armour. If neither the rokkit or the vehicle is destroyed, the rokkit is moved the shortest distance to not be placed upon the vehicle.
- If an infantery squad is hit, all mini under the rokkit or in 3" from the rokkit have to be moved the shortest distance to be 3" away from the rokkit. They are autopinned, even fearless squads.
- If used with CoD rules, a ruin hit by the rokkit is turned into a dangerous ruin on a 4+ and a dangerous ruin is destroyed on a 4+.



The fluff:

When some meks first witnessed a Droppod assault of the space marines, they found them awesome. Trying to show that orkzez can do the same, only better, they used the assaultboats onboard the kroozas to also shoot some orks into the battlezones... needless to say that the assaultboats weren't equipped with the heatshields necessary for atmospheric reentrance and most of them exploded, and the fuel of the other were quickly used up and they struck the planet tousand miles away from their destination. But the few surviving boyz were really excited about this new idea (needless to say that only the craziest speed freaks volunteered for this "mission"), so the meks came up with the idea of first testing what they now named "da stormrokkits" in ground-to-ground flights.
They are carried near a battlezone on other vehicles equipped with a launch ramp, and are shoot into the midst of a battle if support is needed. Most rokkits have a real strong front armour, often with rams and spikes, but no real side or back armour. They are fitted with two big ramps at each side so that the orks inside can exit the rockit regardless on how it lands.

The rokkitboyz are a bunch of supercrazy speed freaks, that risk their life with every rokkitflight only to expierience the ultimate speed kick and the joy of a good crash once again. They seem to be highly masochistic and suicidal to a humans mind, but even orks see them as crazy.
Even if they survive a crash landing, most orks will receive some injuries, so a veteran of a lot of rokkitflights will be patched up by the doks several times and resembles a cybork.
To keep the casialities a little bit lower, some meks make firproof clothz. These are thick long sleeved clothes made from several layers of thick leather and, even though not REALLY fireproof, do a good job in preventing the worst injuries in case of a fire.

The rokkitpilots are an even crazier bunch, as they often fly their rockits into stuff instead of trying to crashland on open terrain. Not that the rokkitboyz onboard care, they even encourage the pilot "to ram da tank ova there".