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Minigiant
30-12-2013, 13:57
Hello everyone, i have just my first ever high elf list. It is 2400pt list within the ETC comp :

- High Elves
• Book of Hoeth/Banner of the World Dragon/Archmage with Lore of Death/2nd Frostheart Phoenix, max 1
• Star Dragon/2nd Frostheart Phoenix, max 1
• Models armed with shooting weapons (Eagle Claw Bolt Throwers count as 6 each), max 70
• Ellyrian Reaver units/1st Eagle unit/Eagle Claw Bolt Thrower, max 6

Anyway here is Mark I


LORD – Prince: 573 Points
Star Dragon, Heavy armour, Lance, Other Tricksters Shard, Golden Crown of Atrazar, Charmed Shield

HERO – Noble: 120 Points
Battle standard bearer, Reaver bow

HERO – Mage: 145 Points
Level 2 High magic, Dispel scroll
HERO – Mage: 145 Points
Level 2 High magic, Ring of Fury

CORE – 10 Ellyrian Reavers: 170 Points
Bows
CORE – 10 Ellyrian Reavers: 170 Points
Bows

CORE – 11 Archers: 130 Points
Musician, Champion
CORE – 11 Archers: 130 Points
Musician, Champion

SPECIAL – 24 White lions of Chrace: 392 Points
Full command, Banner of the world dragon

RARE –Frostheart phoenix: 240pts

RARE – Repeater bolt thrower: 70pts
RARE – Repeater bolt thrower: 70pts

RARE – Great Eagle: 50pts


Mark II

LORD – ArchMage: 590 Points
Moon Dragon, Level 4 Life, Talisman of Preservation, Dispel Scroll

HERO – Noble: 178 Points
Battle standard bearer, Barded Elven steed, Lance, Dragon Armour, Shield, Banner of the World Dragon

HERO – DragonMage: 405 Points
Level 2 Fire, Dragon Armour, Charmed Shield, Ironcurse Icon

CORE – 5 Ellyrian Reavers: 95 Points
Bows, Standard

CORE – 5 Ellyrian Reavers: 95 Points
Bows, Standard

CORE – 14 Silver helms: 352 Points
Full command, Shields

CORE – 10 Archers: 100 Points


RARE –Frostheart phoenix: 240pts

RARE – Repeater bolt thrower: 70pts
RARE – Repeater bolt thrower: 70pts

RARE – 5 Sisters of Avelorn: 105pts
High Sister, Reaver Bow

RARE – Great Eagle: 50pts
RARE – Great Eagle: 50pts

Anyway thoughts?

Kahadras
30-12-2013, 14:38
I'd think long and hard about taking a Star Dragon. When I run a Dragon Lord I prefer the Moon Dragon. It still hits like a ton of bricks and is cheaper. I also try to keep his equipment on the cheap side (Sword of Might, Enchanted Shield, Dragon armour and Golden Crown). If you're going to run a Dragon Lord then I'd recommend giving one of your Mages Lore of Beasts for the signature spell. I'd get the Noble BSB some armour (Dragon armour), a shield and maybe a Potion of Strength to go with the Reaver Bow. The Mages look OK but I'd concider changing one of them to Lore of Beasts. In Core I'd drop the Reavers to units of 5 with a musician and use the saved points to get some Silver Helms (Core heavy cavalry is great IMHO). I'd think about dropping the champions for the Archer units to save some points (the +1 BS isn't worth the cost IMO)

The rest of the list looks OK. I'd prefer to see two Eagles as I think they are one of the best units the HE book has to offer.

Hope this helps.

Minigiant
30-12-2013, 15:07
I'd think long and hard about taking a Star Dragon. When I run a Dragon Lord I prefer the Moon Dragon. It still hits like a ton of bricks and is cheaper. I also try to keep his equipment on the cheap side (Sword of Might, Enchanted Shield, Dragon armour and Golden Crown). If you're going to run a Dragon Lord then I'd recommend giving one of your Mages Lore of Beasts for the signature spell. I'd get the Noble BSB some armour (Dragon armour), a shield and maybe a Potion of Strength to go with the Reaver Bow. The Mages look OK but I'd condier changing one of them to Lore of Beasts. In Core I'd drop the Reavers to units of 5 with a musician and use the saved points to get some Silver Helms (Core heavy cavalry is great IMHO). I'd think about dropping the champions for the Archer units to save some points (the +1 BS isn't worth the cost IMO)

The rest of the list looks OK. I'd prefer to see two Eagles as I think they are one of the best units the HE book has to offer.

Hope this helps.

Thank you for the speedy reply I am already in the process of writing list Mark II so a lot of this will be taken under consideration. The only reason why I have chosen against Silver helms is the fact i hate the models, i cant bring myself to buy them let alone paint them. The champion in the archer units was mainly there to acept any challenges for the mage.

I love eagles and originally had 2 but then the list came to 2455Points

Your constructive criticism has been helpful and i will be looking forward to your feedback on Mark II once it is complete

EDIT: List updated Mark II ready for feedback

Yes i have eaten my own words with Silver helms, thought of a cool conversion

Minigiant
30-12-2013, 19:02
Mark II posted

English 2000
31-12-2013, 14:02
I can't see. MK I so I'll comment on Mk II. I'll start off by saying this isn't a list I would ever take, especially in a competitive environment where half of the armies you face will have 2+ cannons/stone throwers.

That being said, I'll offer my tips on how to get the most out of it as it seems like you're looking for a fun double dragon list rather than an all conquering face smashing elf list.

Will there be scenarios? Will any involve Blood and Glory type victory conditions? I ask because you're very light on banners.

I would change the Seaguard to archers as 10 Seaguard is too small to get any of the benefits of the spears. I would add a musician and (possibly standard - see above re B&G) to this unit.

I don't rate the Dragon Mage (though I LOVE the concept GW had). I can see double dragons giving certain builds a hard time though and is the only option for double dragons.

I also don't know about putting an Archmage on a Dragon. You have a big stompy monster that wants to get into fights and a vulnerable mage who doesn't. A 4++ isn't going to cut it a lot of the time. If you really want a combat mage you may want to consider Lore of Beasts. Fencers blades are probably a must have for this character too.

Watch out for units with champions. You can't do a lone charge with your dragons as they'll just get challenged out.

Your rare minus the sisters is what I take in 2200 point games so I think it's solid.

Your bsb is very vulnerable and will die quickly to a lot of things in combat.

Have you considered putting him on a Griffon with ASF and going all out with the Ulthuan air force?

You could drop the Banner of the Crutch Dragon and give him some more protection instead?

I understand you want that banner to have 2 stubborn dragons alongside your Silver Helms but the Griffon rider would be better equipped to keep pace. You could even risk him and leave the BOTWD on there too keep the dragons stubborn.

2 dragons and a bsb on a Griffon will wreck face against most infantry.

You'd likely need to drop some of your RBTs or Sisters to get the Griffon in.

Edit: another thought is to drop the dragon mage and take a second hero on Griffon alongside the BSB on Griffon.

Minigiant
01-01-2014, 15:47
@English 2000: Thank you for the reply in answer to a few of your questions. The list is intended for all scenarios so yes i will be playing blood and glory. Archers over sea guard are indeed a solution but unfortunately i hate the high elf archers (and spearmen and silver helms :S ) and am unable to think of a suitable conversion; so thats what lead me to taking sea guard over them.

Lore of beasts is a solution but i have also been advised to take Lore of life to increase the longevity of my general and all my big flying monsters, what do you think?

I really want the banner as it synergies well with the rest of the force, any suggestions on how to keep this and make my BSB more durable?

NOTE: Mark II has been slightly modified
- 1 Ironcurse icon on Archmage
- Lore of Shadow on Archmage

+ 1 Ironcurse icon on Dragonmage
+ Lore of Life on Archmage

English 2000
01-01-2014, 16:54
Your bsb is as durable as he's going to be with the BotWD. He will be safe from most enemy characters, but quality rank and file troops will chew him up. Keeping him locked in challenges is probably your best bet so that he gets at 2++ against magic weapons.

I would add standards to the Reavers. In Blood and Glory you'll lose the game as soon as you lose a single break point.

Every Cannon, war machine and archer will be pointing at your general and eventually he'll go down to the sheer volume of shots. Or everything will point at your Silver Helms. Losing either one will cost you the game.

You could drop all the shooting in your rare for a second Phoenix.

I wouldn't bother with the Reaver Bow on the Sisters, I'm pretty sure you lose the Arrows of Isha with that bow.

Have you considered Caradryan instead of the Dragon Mage? I don't know his points off the top of my head but I'm sure you could fit him in.

Regarding magic, Lore of Life will keep you alive longer and gives you access to Dwellers.

Beasts with the Fencers Blades will help you carve through things faster in a fight.

Personally I would go with Beasts because you don't want to get stuck in protracted combats with a list like this. You need to hit with overwhelming force and move on.

A boosted spear also gives you a good chance to take out a cannon.
Cannons are your worst enemy with this army.

There is no harm in trying both and seeing which you prefer.

My personal experience with Life (8th ed, pre new army book) is that it isn't very good.

Now I run High on my Archmage.
Unless I'm using my Loremaster instead in which case I have high on my level 2.

That's what works with my list though. I play a combined arms list with both Empire and HE these days so it's nothing like your list.

I realize that some of my advice revolves around changing models which you may not have (not many people can field 3 Phoenix for example).

So if you're limited by your collection (or really are just set on the Dragon Mage) tell me and I won't mention it again :)

Minigiant
01-01-2014, 17:51
I would add standards to the Reavers. In Blood and Glory you'll lose the game as soon as you lose a single break point.

Every Cannon, war machine and archer will be pointing at your general and eventually he'll go down to the sheer volume of shots. Or everything will point at your Silver Helms. Losing either one will cost you the game.

You are right so i have dropped the Sea guard for 10 Archers and 2 Standards for my Reavers. Unfortunately this does not give me the points for a Musician on the archers which kinda sucks


You could drop all the shooting in your rare for a second Phoenix.

I really wish i could but I have chosen the BotWD so ETC comp restricts me adding a 2nd Frost Phoenix


Have you considered Caradryan instead of the Dragon Mage? I don't know his points off the top of my head but I'm sure you could fit him in.

No i have not, thats an interesting way but again ETC no special characters

English 2000
01-01-2014, 21:06
Right. I managed to forget the comp for that post.

Kahadras
02-01-2014, 15:23
The Mark II list is going to be very difficult to get the best out of IMHO.

The problem with the Archmage on a Dragon is the fact that he's a lot of points and is going to have a big target painted on him. This is compounded by the fact that while the Archmage wants to be out of combat to cast spells the Dragon wants to be in combat to protect itself from warmachines and make use of its multiple high strength attacks. If you want a Dragon in your army then my advice would be to take a Prince (or a Dragon Mage at a push). My general theory when it comes to characters for HE is 1 Lord and 2 Heroes (in a 'standard' game). I always run a fairly cheap BSB (Noble with Dragon armour and a cheap defencive item or two). Depending on whether the Lord is a Prince or an Archmage the second hero 'fills in'. Therefore if I have a combat Lord I'll take a level two Mage with a Dispel Scroll and if I take an Archmage then I'll run a combat Noble (either mounted on a Griffon or in a unit of Silver Helms/Dragon Princes).

In core I'd drop the standards from the Reavers and replace them with musicians to help with rallying.

I'm also a bit concerned that special infantry has been overlooked. A block of Phoenix Guard or White Lions is a really useful thing to have on the table.

If you want a Dragon in the army I'd recommend making him a Prince. Drop the Dragon Mage and take a basic Mage (High Magic) with a small ward save and the Ring of Fury. I'd drop the Sisters and with the chunk of points saved from the Archmage, Dragon Mage and Sisters I'd invest in a unit of Phoenix Guard. This would make the army look like this...

Prince + Dragon

Noble BSB (in the Silver Helms)
Mage (in the Phoenix Guard)

Reavers + musician
Reavers + musician
Silver Helms + FC + shields
Archers

Phoenix Guard + FC

Frostheart Phoenix
Bolt Thrower
Bolt Thrower
Eagle
Eagle

Minigiant
02-01-2014, 15:38
@Kahadras thank you for the reply

The Reavers are a toss up between Musicians or Standards, because Standards help me in the scenario Blood and Glory whereas the Musicians help with rallying

The list you suggested looks good but it just looses to much of the fun aspect; the dual dragons and the sisters. Those are what makes the list different to every other list

Kahadras
02-01-2014, 15:57
The Reavers are a toss up between Musicians or Standards, because Standards help me in the scenario Blood and Glory whereas the Musicians help with rallying

In Blood and Glory they are two easy points to get.


The list you suggested looks good but it just looses to much of the fun aspect; the dual dragons and the sisters. Those are what makes the list different to every other list

Most HE lists have Sisters in them. Double Dragon has been done before.

By all means run the army how you want to. I'm a fan of fun but I always think that you need a solid core to the army.

English 2000
02-01-2014, 16:10
Kharadras,

Since I'm the one who recommended the standards on the Reavers I'll explain my reasoning.

Without them if either the Helms or general die he loses the game immediately. With standards on the Reavers it provides an opportunity to run away and hide to play for a tie if one of his main things dies.

Like you, this isn't how I would build a list. It's more about helping to maximize what you and I both likely consider a less than optimal build.

Kahadras
02-01-2014, 16:42
Without them if either the Helms or general die he loses the game immediately. With standards on the Reavers it provides an opportunity to run away and hide to play for a tie if one of his main things dies.

The problem with the Reavers is the fact that they are then being asked to do a job they are not really designed to do. You have to decide right at the start of the game if the Reavers need to hide and hold onto their standards or do the job of regular light cavalry (for which they'd be better off with a musician). If he does want a couple of extra banners I'd put one in the Archer unit (bulking them up a bit) and upgrade one of the Reaver units to Silver Helms. It would cost more points but would make the banners harder to get and would free up a Reaver unit for redirecting.

English 2000
02-01-2014, 16:55
Agreed on the archers. That was one of my first suggestions.

In my latest list I'm running 15 with standard and musician. So far I'm loving them. Resilient enough that you have to send something more substantial than fast cavalry or the usual 5 knights. Yet not enough points that you want to send something decent in and risk over extending your lines.

15 Bowshots is enough to clear chaff and such.


Regarding the usage of Reavers, I don't have musicians in my units and they do well for me.

I don't think you have to hide them at the start of the game, they're a contingency plan in case you have some bad luck early on.

Minigiant
02-01-2014, 16:57
By all means run the army how you want to. I'm a fan of fun but I always think that you need a solid core to the army.

Agreed, a solid core is nice and if i was able to run a unit alongside the dual dragons i would happily do so