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Barun Von Krump
01-01-2014, 12:21
Every codex has one or two stinkers. Maybe they used to be a viable option and either changes in edition or tacticshave made them all but useless. Undoubtedly every Ork post or thread will make mention of my two nominees: the cool, but broken Flash Gitz and the beautifully inconsistent kommandos. While kommandos were once a good option, their current state keeps them on the bench and the poor Flash Gitz don't get any love since the 5th edition. So, what are your worst units?

Nubl0
01-01-2014, 12:24
Pyrovore would like to say HAI! Here's hoping he knows what he wants to be in the new codex.

A.T.
01-01-2014, 12:47
Sisters probably has to go to the celestians - power armour, bolter, cost as much as space marines, aren't space marines. No real reason to ever take them over troops or dominions.

Honourable mentions go to the repentia and penitent engines which are slow moving unarmoured assault units, they'll never make it against an awake opponent.

DeathGlam
01-01-2014, 12:53
Mandrakes for Dark Eldar, fantastic models but even in a super casual enviroment that i play, it is all but impossible to get them to do anything.:cries:

NixonAsADaemonPrince
01-01-2014, 13:13
For Grey Knights, I'd have to say the Eversor and Culexus Assassins. Both are very easy to kill, and don't even do that much damage for the amount of points you spend.

Ironbone
01-01-2014, 13:31
In case of IG, conscripts, hands down. Worse than guardsmans, and yet not that much cheaper to comperseate that wroseness. No special weapons, no heavy weapons, and terrible LD with no chance of improving it outside joining an IC. And best way to make the usable acutally makes them more expensive than guardsmans, outside extreme lagre units. FW showed that cannon fooder unit can be done a lot better.

And if case of special characters - Sergeant Bastones. Great fluff, nice rules and absouletly unjustified cost. In "Tactica Imperium" pdf there is joke that aparently some IG units cost was designed by throwing darts at random numbers. In some cases, apparently throwes were just snipers, and scored insane points ( bastone, Nork Dedog ), and in case of other miss horribly ( vendetta ).

Lord Damocles
01-01-2014, 13:32
Ordo Hereticus Inquisitors - for when you really don't want cool grenades or useful weapons.

MoonlightSonata
01-01-2014, 13:34
Flayed Ones. Pointless rules. Pointless finecast models.

Ironbone
01-01-2014, 13:37
Flayed Ones. Pointless rules. Pointless finecast models.
I think that's a bit too harsh ;). It's medicore, averange unit in codex where everthing is better than averange :p.

Camman1984
01-01-2014, 14:06
From a personal visual perspective, centutions for me, even if they have decent rules. For actual poor rules the space marines have it alright, worst is probably the dreads just because they serve such little purpose.

Spiney Norman
01-01-2014, 15:14
For my current armies
Dark angels: Nephilim/Land speeder vengeance, both are pretty terrible
Dark Eldar: Mandrakes are really the only weak link
Necrons: Ooooh tricky, nothing is really flat out shocking, but Triarch Praetorians and flayed ones are probably slightly below the curve compared to everything else.
Sisters of Battle: wow, where do I start, Repentia and Celestians are the stand-out terrible choices, while the Canoness, command squads, seraphim, Penitent engines and retributors are just regular terrible.

Homeworld
01-01-2014, 15:27
Banshees, for the Eldar. Not mentioning the fact that CaC units are not very useful anymore for CWE, Banshees are really tragic. And since they have not assault grenades (a CaC unit without assault grenades! :confused:) , I can't imagine a way to employ them, really.

Voss
01-01-2014, 15:29
Pyrovore would like to say HAI! Here's hoping he knows what he wants to be in the new codex.

Torrent. He wants torrent.

Homeworld
01-01-2014, 15:31
CaC units means Hand to Hand (or Melee) units, sorry. Sometimes I think in italian when I write in english...:p

Spiney Norman
01-01-2014, 15:49
Banshees, for the Eldar. Not mentioning the fact that CaC units are not very useful anymore for CWE, Banshees are really tragic. And since they have not assault grenades (a CaC unit without assault grenades! :confused:) , I can't imagine a way to employ them, really.

There are plenty of combat specialists in 40k that don't have assault grenades, praetorians, banshees, Lychguard, Incubi, Wraiths (ok so whip coils kind of make up for it), it really only is imperial armies where everyone and their grandmother gets access to assault grenades.

Montegue
01-01-2014, 16:03
Probably a tie between wolf scouts and blood claws.

Homeworld
01-01-2014, 16:11
There are plenty of combat specialists in 40k that don't have assault grenades, praetorians, banshees, Lychguard, Incubi, Wraiths (ok so whip coils kind of make up for it), it really only is imperial armies where everyone and their grandmother gets access to assault grenades.

Ok, but you mention units who are very tough compared to the frail banshees, or have access to assault veichles.
But speaking about CWE Codex, it seems quite odd they gave assault grenades to Dire Avengers, Defenders and Storm Guardians, Scorpions and Hawks, and nothing to a super-specialistic HtH unit like banshees. Nearly every Eldar unit received a solid buff but them.

My two cents: they nerfed banshees so you are more compelled to buy the new and shiny wraithblades.

MagicHat
01-01-2014, 16:22
Death Company Tycho for BA IMO.

An expensive CC character on foot that can't join other units. Glorious.

ihavetoomuchminis
01-01-2014, 17:10
Tzeentch's Flaming chariot. Both chariots.

fenrisbrit
01-01-2014, 17:36
Tzeentch's Flaming chariot. Both chariots.

Agree. Such a shame as it is a beautiful model but I just cannot get it to do anything!

Silentbob10
01-01-2014, 18:09
Lets see,

Space wolves- Blood claws- no real use compared to grey hunters
Dark angels- The stupid land speeder takes the trophie
Black templars- With my army the award goes to tactical squads because my crusader squads are just better.
Eldar- Banshees
Dark eldar- mandrakes
Guard- conscripts
Tau- Vespid
Daemons- Flaming chariot

KR3LL
01-01-2014, 18:14
Every codex has one or two stinkers. Maybe they used to be a viable option and either changes in edition or tacticshave made them all but useless. Undoubtedly every Ork post or thread will make mention of my two nominees: the cool, but broken Flash Gitz and the beautifully inconsistent kommandos. While kommandos were once a good option, their current state keeps them on the bench and the poor Flash Gitz don't get any love since the 5th edition. So, what are your worst units?

I agree about the kommandos. I never use them anymore.

Flash Gitz on the other hand. I use them somewhat regularly. They are expensive but downright nasty. My only complaint about them is 2 heavy slots for them in a battlewagon.

T10
01-01-2014, 18:31
Every codex has one or two stinkers... So, what are your worst units?
Looking at the Space Marine codex, there aren't really anyone that sticks out. Either I'm missing something, or there are some units I've not used yet that are worse than I can imagine.

-T10

madden
01-01-2014, 18:50
Current nid dex even worse than pyrovor the ripper swarm can't fight and commit suicide out side of synapse or the very worst spore mine cluster pay points for a model that dies and does nothing.

Silversage
01-01-2014, 18:56
My fellow Dark Angels! The enemy is upon us! Can you see those distant black dots on the horizon? They are the enemies fliers, sent ahead of their main column to rain death on us from the skies. But do not despair, for we have... Nephilims? Really? That's it? ..... Brothers! I hear there are rumours of Fallen in the neighbouring solar system. Pack it up and let's move out!

OuroborosTriumphant
01-01-2014, 19:00
That'd be the Nephilim Jet-fighter.

EDIT: Ninja-ed.

stompzilla
01-01-2014, 19:17
Banshees, hands down.

Scammel
01-01-2014, 19:27
Probably Warp Talons, for suffering extensively from the fact that a T4 1 Wound model with a million attacks is still a T4 1 Wound model.

Rogue Trooper
01-01-2014, 20:36
Death Wing Knights for Dark Angels - they can only smite once so you basically are forced to do that in the first cc you get into so you get the most out of it - after that even standard marines can take you down and you only have one wound.

By the way land speeders are great - lots of bang for the buck hunting down tanks and creating havoc. Why don't people like them? Pretty cheap right?

Mozzamanx
01-01-2014, 20:43
Probably Warp Talons, for suffering extensively from the fact that a T4 1 Wound model with a million attacks is still a T4 1 Wound model.

It doesn't even have a million attacks, it has 2. One on profile, plus a second for having 2 weapons.

Horrifically overpriced based on AP3 and Shred, at the expense of any other utility, grenades or resilience. The one, and only one, use of this unit is to kill Marine units out of cover and without Terminator armour. It's a good thing that Chaos Marines don't have any other options in the Fast Attack slot that excel at murdering 3+ saves. Particularly if it did so from range, at Strength 6 and mounted on a flier with 360* shooting.....

Silversage
01-01-2014, 22:02
Death Wing Knights for Dark Angels - they can only smite once so you basically are forced to do that in the first cc you get into so you get the most out of it - after that even standard marines can take you down and you only have one wound.


What the...? Deathwing Knights are good for what they are meant to do. OK yeah they can't instagib other LOYALIST marines by ignoring their armor, but that generally doesn't matter (fluffwise it shouldn't either). Their maces are not unwieldy or specialist weapons, so they strike at Initiative 4. The Knight Master has the flail (also not unwieldy or specialist), which WILL go through any 3+ saves. Fight against Chaos Marines and suddenly the maces go right through the enemy's power armour and your Knight Master will laugh at terminator armor. When the enemy does get to hit you back, you have 2+/3++ saves. Position yourself well and your Toughness goes up by 1 too.

Oh, and your Knights ALL make precision hits with a To Hit roll of 6. Very few groups have more than a few weapons that go through 2+ in melee, so bash those powerfist guys' faces in with your regular Knights and watch the others fail to dent your armor.

When your opponent does throw that group of klawnobz at you, THEN it's time to intone a few prayers to the Emperor and get your Smite-mode on. Thanks for coming specialist cc unit, we'll be going through here now. Most likely your enemy won't have too many of them anyway.

Rogue Trooper
01-01-2014, 22:10
Okay each to their own - can't say that I'm a fan - especially with one wound each. Would prefer thunder hammer termies for similar points.

Rogue Trooper
01-01-2014, 22:12
Why would not being able to kill other loyalist marines not matter? Let's say in a tournament against space wolves?

OuroborosTriumphant
02-01-2014, 08:04
Okay each to their own - can't say that I'm a fan - especially with one wound each. Would prefer thunder hammer termies for similar points.

In fairness, in order to show that DWK are not the worst unit in the codex we don't need to claim they are great or even good (I'd peg them as "all-right, not great" myself). We just need to convince you they are better than the Nephilim.

lantzkev
02-01-2014, 08:11
For grey knights I'm going with the Callidus Assassin, 145 pts... of ineffectiveness.

For tau it's pathfinders with ion/rail guns.

Rogue Trooper
02-01-2014, 08:18
In fairness, in order to show that DWK are not the worst unit in the codex we don't need to claim they are great or even good (I'd peg them as "all-right, not great" myself). We just need to convince you they are better than the Nephilim.

That's true lol

Zombie P
02-01-2014, 08:35
In fairness, in order to show that DWK are not the worst unit in the codex we don't need to claim they are great or even good (I'd peg them as "all-right, not great" myself). We just need to convince you they are better than the Nephilim.

I love this, and its true.

I am going to go with Tactical Terminators as the worst unit in the C: SM dex. They are surpassed by everyone else in every way.

mandrakes for DE.

ZP

hazmiter
02-01-2014, 08:43
I'm with zombie, tactical terminators only really have one role these days, punching tanks, and theyre expensive for doing that.
They used to be decent......
The other unit i would nominate from the space marines codex would have to be the chaplain, seriously, with the Statline he has, he should have been elites lol.

Still Standing
02-01-2014, 08:50
The only unit I can think of in the Legion book is Legion Skyhunter Jetbikes. Look sexy (http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/The_Horus_Heresy/Legiones_Astartes/Space_Marine_Legion_Army_List/Legion_Fast_Attack/Legion_Jetbike_Sky_Hunter_Squadron?filter_reset=1) , are utterly pants.

Serpent
02-01-2014, 09:11
Space Wolves: Skyclaws. Like Blood Claws, but can't be joined by a Wolf Guard...

IcedAnimals
02-01-2014, 09:30
For sisters I have to agree with A.T. Celestians. You pay a point more than a chaos marine. You lose a str, toughness, and initiative and you aren't scoring.

For Necrons, Triarch Praetorians. single wound jump infantry with short range single shot guns. A single melee attack at awful initiative. And terminator price for a 3+ save. Oh something that wastes an elites slot.

Its my same answer as the Dakka thread. But im going to also include my daemons choice of the burning chariot. I don't even play Tzeentch and that thing is just scary bad.

Spell_of_Destruction
02-01-2014, 09:48
Although Banshees needed a lot more love in the new codex, I feel they're the kind of unit that is never going to work in 6th edition. If 7th swings the pendulum back towards assault, they might just be half decent again.

I would say the Hemlock. It's laughably overpriced and isn't particularly good at anything. Its psychic abilities are marginal at best and its main guns aren't anything to write home about. Interesting concept, horrible execution

Menthak
02-01-2014, 10:53
Kroot when used as a melee force.

lantzkev
02-01-2014, 11:11
even then they aren't that bad... they are 6pts apiece.... what are orcs again?

-edit-
that's like saying that crisis suits are terrible when used as an assault force, or zoanthropes are terrible melee, or pink horrors are terrible when used as anti-tank, etc. etc... of course some units are bad when used outside of their intended role...

Gig
02-01-2014, 11:56
even then they aren't that bad... they are 6pts apiece.... what are orcs again?

-edit-
that's like saying that crisis suits are terrible when used as an assault force, or zoanthropes are terrible melee, or pink horrors are terrible when used as anti-tank, etc. etc... of course some units are bad when used outside of their intended role...

The thing is Kroot are intended to be used in melee :/

As for the worst thing in my codexes Warp Talons and Burning Chariot win hands down, the Land Raider in chaos marines for having increased in price is utterly terrible too but it at least does something unique in the army unlike warp talons

Menthak
02-01-2014, 12:51
The thing is Kroot are intended to be used in melee :/

Basically this. I'm aware that if I tried to use conscripts as a melee force they'd be the worst, but kroot are (were) designed for melee, and it infuriates me that they're not anymore.

crandall87
02-01-2014, 13:08
Mutilators or Warp Talons for CSM. On paper both are pretty good CC units but getting them there is the problem. The Mutilators are too slow and the Warp Talons die too easily making both units overpriced IMO.

Nubl0
02-01-2014, 13:35
Yeah I'll never understand why kroot lost a str, that said even when they were str 4 you were still better of sitting in cover and shooting, but at least they could kinda handle themselves in a combat back then.

OuroborosTriumphant
02-01-2014, 14:14
Mutilators or Warp Talons for CSM. On paper both are pretty good CC units but getting them there is the problem. The Mutilators are too slow and the Warp Talons die too easily making both units overpriced IMO.

In a codex that contains Thousand Sons and Possessed, I don't think Mutilators make the short-list for "Worst Unit". I mean, they are not good, but... see my comment about Nephilims and DWKs.

Menthak
02-01-2014, 14:39
Yeah I'll never understand why kroot lost a str, that said even when they were str 4 you were still better of sitting in cover and shooting, but at least they could kinda handle themselves in a combat back then.

Just dislike the loss of CC to shooting in a codex full of shooting :(


In a codex that contains Thousand Sons and Possessed, I don't think Mutilators make the short-list for "Worst Unit". I mean, they are not good, but... see my comment about Nephilims and DWKs.

You've not seen what TS can do when used right :D

Scammel
02-01-2014, 14:47
In a codex that contains Thousand Sons and Possessed, I don't think Mutilators make the short-list for "Worst Unit". I mean, they are not good, but... see my comment about Nephilims and DWKs.

TSons can, on occasion, murder some expensive infantry unit that happened to wander out of cover and the fact that you force Marines to rely on inferior saves has its value too. Expensive and limited, but Mutilators are a CC unit in an edition where CC is strictly secondary to shooting and have Slow and Purposeful. Warp Talons barely pip them in terms of awfulness due to the fact that Muties are at least tough to kill. But seriously, SnP CC units have overtones of Daleks trying to go up stairs.

Ironbone
02-01-2014, 15:00
Daleks
Who ?

Sorry, could not resist the pun :p.


Warp Talons barely pip them in terms of awfulness due to the fact that Muties are at least tough to kill
Well, warp talons are not uterry useless, but yeah, they are bad. Basicly CSM FA=baledrake :rolleyes:.

Mandragola
02-01-2014, 15:24
It's honestly hard to pick a bad unit in the Tau codex. Pathfinders are a bit frustrating because they look cool but are much worse than marker drones, in my experience, and that's always frustrating because it just means there's no good way to use them.

Most of the real shockers have been mentioned. I'd like to wade into the dark angel debate though, to say that I think the land speeder vengeance is even worse than the nephilim. Yes, the nephilim is bad at its job and hugely over-priced, but at least it can potentially accomplish something. It's kind of ok against low-armour flyers like dakka jets or the eldar ones - it just can't deal with helldrakes, vendettas and storm ravens. Admittedly those are the planes you're actually worried about... Ok well there's not really any way to polish the Nephilim, is there...

But the vengeance blows itself up! It comes with a much weaker gun than a vindicator, that gets hot, on a much softer platform, for a lot more points. Its a 2hp vehicle that does itself an average of 1.5hp of damage over a 6 turn game, meaning it's pretty likely to simply kill itself. No other unit in the game is like this.

That said, it has the virtue that you don't need it so you can just pretend it doesn't exist. The Nephilim is required for AA, and utterly fails to provide it. It has incomprehensible rules. Strafing run? Missiles that look pretty serious but hit like krak grenades? How many points?! Ok maybe you guys are right.

Flyers in general are a problem for GW, because there aren't many of them, or ways to deal with them other than using other flyers, so each one matters a lot. Where they've messed up and made an OP flyer, like baledrakes, vendettas and night scythes (for their various reasons), then other people will really have trouble dealing with them. When they mess up in the other direction and make a flyer too weak, like the nephilim, then the whole army is weak as a consequence of having no air-defence.

The only good news is that DA (and SW) players can now get themselves a storm wing. My advice would be to get one of those and paint it in DA colours (green or black, your call), and make no apology for the fact. There's no good fluff reason why DA can't make those things anyway so just go ahead.

insectum7
02-01-2014, 15:37
I am going to go with Tactical Terminators as the worst unit in the C: SM dex. They are surpassed by everyone else in every way.


Storm Bolter, Powerfist, 2+/5++, Ld 9, and 2 base attacks not good enough for you?

Personally, I think the new SM AA tanks are sorta crap. Without intercept I may as well just buy some flakk missiles instead, and distribute them among units that can do other things.

Mandragola
02-01-2014, 15:56
Storm Bolter, Powerfist, 2+/5++, Ld 9, and 2 base attacks not good enough for you?[/I]

Simply listing something's stats doesn't really tell us anything useful. Those 2 attacks and power fist are not very useful if it's not in close combat, which is a difficult and expensive thing to achieve, and which they do worse than assault terminators anyway. The 2+ save isn't useful because they cost a load of points, meaning they are not tough - because they are easier to kill than the same points spent on normal marines - who would be less tough than the same points spent on IG or orks. So in fact a terminator army is not a tough army, it's a fragile army that can be hard-countered either by lots of AP2 or weight of fire, and which has very low threat at range.

mostlyharmless
02-01-2014, 16:19
It's honestly hard to pick a bad unit in the Tau codex. Pathfinders are a bit frustrating because they look cool but are much worse than marker drones, in my experience, and that's always frustrating because it just means there's no good way to use them.


For a codex flooded with fast attack options, I'd say the vespid stingwings take the cake as worst unit. Every other Fast Attack choice is far superior to the Vespids.

The Pathfinders have their own uses, in my opinion. Yes, the marker drones have better utility, but if you're relying on Pathfinders purely for markerlight support, you're not using them to their highest potential. Pathfinders have something fire warriors don't have: special weapon options. In larger games (2000+), you can take multiple small squads of pathfinders with special weapons, place them in terrain, and lay down heavy weapons fire to support your fire warriors. Sure, they can die relatively quickly, but think about how much punishment you can dish out for a mere 74 points, if I recall the costs correctly. 3 small blasts at strength 8 with an Ion Rifle can pack quite a punch and make their points back in spades. Rail Rifles are less efficient, but have their own use as well.

insectum7
02-01-2014, 16:25
Simply listing something's stats doesn't really tell us anything useful.

Gee, maybe I should throw away my codex then.


So in fact a terminator army is not a tough army, it's a fragile army that can be hard-countered either by lots of AP2 or weight of fire, and which has very low threat at range.

Who said anything about army? I thought this was a unit discussion.

Mandragola
02-01-2014, 16:27
Yeah true, pathfinders aren't hopeless with their special weapons. Outflanking them with ion rifles and shooting the back ends off tanks is actually kind of good. Love the models too.

Even the vespid are sort of ok. I mean you'd never use them ahead of the many superior choices, but you can't really say they are dreadful. Not in the way that a Pyrovore or a Land Speeder Vengeance is dreadful.

Charistoph
02-01-2014, 16:33
Heh, I remember when Ethereals were easily in the top 3 of worst units, ever.

But as for my Templars... I would go with the Champion. He's not bad, but he was made worse than his previous version in several areas for AP: 2 and a permanent Iron Halo and I have to give up a Chaplain to field him in less than 2000 points. The Tactical Squads at least get a free sergeant who can Rend in a Challenge.

mostlyharmless
02-01-2014, 16:37
Yeah, I'm pretty disappointed in the Emperor's Champion as well. For the same cost as the old Champion with an awesome vow, I get the Emperor's Champion with no vow, fewer attacks, and a worse sword.

Charistoph
02-01-2014, 16:42
Yeah, I'm pretty disappointed in the Emperor's Champion as well. For the same cost as the old Champion with an awesome vow, I get the Emperor's Champion with no vow, fewer attacks, and a worse sword.

It's only fewer attacks if you go the Str: 6 version in a Challenge. Same profile of Attacks, still Pistol, still a non-Specialist weapon. Odder still is that he's generally MORE dangerous one handed than two except for things that have no Toughness in the first place.

gwarsh41
02-01-2014, 18:34
Chaos daemons have a few.

Flaming chariot is bad unit because of flawed rules.
Slaanesh chariots are arguably bad units because they are light armor, cheap in game, but expensive cash wise to run enough to make them useful (seriously you can field a ******** of them)
Furies are LD2, so if you lose combat by 2 or more, you then lose an additional 2d6 more furies. The are under 7pt, but 5 of them costs somewhere around $30.

Scammel
02-01-2014, 20:05
Heh, I remember when Ethereals were easily in the top 3 of worst units, ever.

Certainly, but pipped off the top spot by Spawn, I think. 40pts to quickly run up and gently caress the nearest enemy unit before immediately crumpling thanks to no save and No Retreat. Ethereals and Pyrovores were/are god-awful, but at least you can stop them from just handing out Kill Points like flowers from a basket.

Dervos
02-01-2014, 20:56
Sisters probably has to go to the celestians - power armour, bolter, cost as much as space marines, aren't space marines. No real reason to ever take them over troops or dominions.

Honourable mentions go to the repentia and penitent engines which are slow moving unarmoured assault units, they'll never make it against an awake opponent.

I would say Celestians as well even though I am guilty of using them.

As for grey knights, I'm leaning towards paladins, I really don't like terminators much anyway so seeing a terminator that costs more than 50 points for a base cost is just mind blowing to me.(maybe I'm just lucky and have just always happened to play armies with ton's of anti-TEQ weapons, i miss you eldar)

madden
02-01-2014, 21:09
Personally, I think the new SM AA tanks are sorta crap. Without intercept I may as well just buy some flakk missiles instead, and distribute them among units that can do other things.[/QUOTE]

There not that bad skyfire works on skimmers as well and in my area theres a lot of tau/eldar players and tge occasional chaos. So at least there not getting totaled by drakes like devs or (to badly) out manuvered by serpents.

Charistoph
02-01-2014, 21:41
Certainly, but pipped off the top spot by Spawn, I think. 40pts to quickly run up and gently caress the nearest enemy unit before immediately crumpling thanks to no save and No Retreat. Ethereals and Pyrovores were/are god-awful, but at least you can stop them from just handing out Kill Points like flowers from a basket.

You must mean Daemon Spawn, as the Marine Spawn are used a lot locally to escort Biker Lords as cheap ablative Wounds.

Previously, Ethereals were better off as objective markers as they could cause half the army to run off the table all for the possible benefit of improvement in Assault? Then Preferred Enemy changed to affect shooting so people started taking a chance with the Ethereal and tried killing him off early!

They aren't great offensively still (let's face it, that's not their job), but they are so much better this codex and don't threaten to have your army run for the hills when they die.

Scammel
02-01-2014, 22:19
You must mean Daemon Spawn, as the Marine Spawn are used a lot locally to escort Biker Lords as cheap ablative Wounds.

Previously, Ethereals were better off as objective markers as they could cause half the army to run off the table all for the possible benefit of improvement in Assault? Then Preferred Enemy changed to affect shooting so people started taking a chance with the Ethereal and tried killing him off early!

They aren't great offensively still (let's face it, that's not their job), but they are so much better this codex and don't threaten to have your army run for the hills when they die.

Nah, I'm talking about old Spawn. The Ethereal could do horrible things to your own army but at least you could actually decide what to do with him. The only person who could dictate how Spawn moved (without 'ingenious' use of intervening units) was the opponent.

Lee-Full_Davis
02-01-2014, 23:06
Errr..... I'd say Flayed Ones since they're not very useful, but then again i could always use them as a (pretty expensive!) decoy unit

jackers
02-01-2014, 23:26
There not that bad skyfire works on skimmers as well and in my area theres a lot of tau/eldar players and tge occasional chaos. So at least there not getting totaled by drakes like devs or (to badly) out manuvered by serpents.

The other thing to remember about the stalker/hunter, is that it is actually pretty cheap (in points) for the damage it can cause. Sure it isn't going to get into any tourney lists, but I like the model and even making a flyer jink can be worth 70 points.
i used my hunter for the first time today and it 1-shotted a wave serpent, which isn't too bad. (Anecdotal I know, but that is still double its points back).

As as for my armies;

DA - Neph and LS Vengeance (what were they thinking giving it gets hot and only 2HP, and not to mention the obscene points cost)
Daemons - burning chariot (stupid rules mess up) and furies
SM - there isn't anything truly awful in the SM book IMO, but my vote would probably go to either Centurions (either kind) or vanguard. Now, this isn't because they are actually bad, but more because they cost so many points to actually field in any worthwhile set-up.

Voss
02-01-2014, 23:27
Basically this. I'm aware that if I tried to use conscripts as a melee force they'd be the worst, but kroot are (were) designed for melee, and it infuriates me that they're not anymore.

Honestly, even before they were rather poor at melee. 2 attacks and S4 isn't all that that impressive. Especially when lacking toughness, armour and initiative, when most melee units get at least one of those, if not two or all three. They at least have a purpose now beyond 'speed bump,' as massed sniper fire is pretty useful against several target types.

A.T.
02-01-2014, 23:44
Especially when lacking toughness, armour and initiative, when most melee units get at least one of those, if not two or all three.Repentia T3, Armour 6++, Initiative 1 :p

Dranthar
03-01-2014, 01:04
The Heldrake. Ruins the game for everyone. :(

Menthak
03-01-2014, 01:19
Honestly, even before they were rather poor at melee. 2 attacks and S4 isn't all that that impressive. Especially when lacking toughness, armour and initiative, when most melee units get at least one of those, if not two or all three. They at least have a purpose now beyond 'speed bump,' as massed sniper fire is pretty useful against several target types.

not great, but a great way to mop-up entrenched light-medium infantry,

Splen
03-01-2014, 03:04
I think I'd have to say my penitent engines. They seem like massively fun units but they always seem to get wiped out before they can do anything useful :(
I haven't got the new sisters book yet though so I don't know if they are still the same or not.

Zombie P
03-01-2014, 08:41
Storm Bolter, Powerfist, 2+/5++, Ld 9, and 2 base attacks not good enough for you?

Personally, I think the new SM AA tanks are sorta crap. Without intercept I may as well just buy some flakk missiles instead, and distribute them among units that can do other things.


No, its not. If I spend 230pts (5 tactical terms with a chainfist and cyclone), I get 5 2+/5++ T4 wounds, that move at 6" a turn, have a actual threat range (more than just the occasional rocket streaking across the board) of 30" and take an elites slot... The storm bolters suck. The multiple powerfists suck against anything with a wounds value. The cyclone as always is cool, but I am paying a minimum of 225pts for the pleasure of taking it. I can put one on a storm talon, with a threat range of 84" and skyfire (not to mention the TLAC) on a flying base for considerably less points and the fact that it flies and is immune to less than S5 shots I would equate to at least equal the "durability" of a terminator unit.
So the tactical termies suck at shooting. What about endurance and "threat"? Oh, look over there at their assault cousins. For 225pts I get 5 2+/3++ T4 wounds that can stick around in combat long enough to actually hit something with their attacks thanks to the storm shields. They absorb fire power like a sponge. When they do actually hit something that lives to see the next turn, we strike at the same time thanks to those hammers, dramatically increasing their ability to kill off MCs (something tactical terminators suck at).
There are also:- Honour Guard, Assault Centurions Devastator Centurions to fulfill your quota on 2+ saves, unit threat and damage output. Almost all of these for less points, or a least better points per head.

I appreciate that tactical terminators are cool, I my self tend to use 10 when I know im not going to be fighting too hard for the win, but they are the most neglected unit in the codex and it is really starting to show. Vanguard vets are another reason why they are falling behind too.

ZP

MajorWesJanson
03-01-2014, 09:36
Personally, I think the new SM AA tanks are sorta crap. Without intercept I may as well just buy some flakk missiles instead, and distribute them among units that can do other things.

Depends on the meta. Skyfire works just fine against skimmers, aka every vehicle in the Tau, Eldar, Dark Eldar, and Necron codex. I personally really like the Hunter. S7 AP2 Armorbane is quite handy, and tends to be ignored by players without fliers until it gets that 6 to hit and pops a predator tank.

Spiney Norman
03-01-2014, 09:44
Depends on the meta. Skyfire works just fine against skimmers, aka every vehicle in the Tau, Eldar, Dark Eldar, and Necron codex. I personally really like the Hunter. S7 AP2 Armorbane is quite handy, and tends to be ignored by players without fliers until it gets that 6 to hit and pops a predator tank.

Since when did the triarch stalker become a skimmer?

Zombie P
03-01-2014, 10:17
Since when did the triarch stalker become a skimmer?

Arguably that is the single non skimmer vehicle in all those books...

ZP

Edit: Curses Lord Damocles.

Lord Damocles
03-01-2014, 10:17
And when was the last time anyone used a Triarch Stalker anyway..?

(Also: War Walkers)

duffybear1988
03-01-2014, 10:37
Errr..... I'd say Flayed Ones since they're not very useful, but then again i could always use them as a (pretty expensive!) decoy unit

20 infiltrating flayed ones are not useless - they are actually quite good at stalling enemy units and forcing them to focus fire. Most people just don't bother with them because they are so expensive for finecast.

Repentia are useless unless you sit them in a firestorm redoubt and have them charge out to attack enemies who come close to your gunline.

MajorWesJanson
03-01-2014, 12:30
Since when did the triarch stalker become a skimmer?

Tuesday.

Actually, I was going to say "nearly every vehicle" but then I was thinking about it, and could not remember the Stalker, as I never see one on the table. Just barges and planes.

Edit: OK, Warwalkers do count, as they do show up somewhat often. But they will drop to massed bolters.

Camman1984
03-01-2014, 13:30
I personally think the stalker and hunter are great for their points. They arent amazing at their job but for what you pay they are good enough, like the whirlwind. And that one game you take out two crimson hunters with a single stalker makes it all worthwhile. I did see someone use 2 stalkers vs dark eldar and they were superb.

A.T.
03-01-2014, 13:47
Repentia are useless unless you sit them in a firestorm redoubt and have them charge out to attack enemies who come close to your gunline.I was under the impression that buildings were treated no differently than any other transport vehicle - so the repentia would do their normal trick of standing infront of the enemy unit and getting shot up, and then quite possibly charged negating half their attacks and their faith power in one fell swoop.

MagicHat
03-01-2014, 13:54
I was under the impression that buildings were treated no differently than any other transport vehicle - so the repentia would do their normal trick of standing infront of the enemy unit and getting shot up, and then quite possibly charged negating half their attacks and their faith power in one fell swoop.

The optional updated building rules in Stronghold Assault allows assaults from a building.

Kung Fu Hamster
03-01-2014, 14:11
Nice to see Mandrakes are getting the love they deserve in this thread.

*sigh* And they're such good looking models, too.


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A.T.
03-01-2014, 14:22
The optional updated building rules in Stronghold Assault allows assaults from a building.Highlights the problem of supplementary material being pay to win.

Player A - "you can't assault out of buildings"
Player B (pulls out ebook) - "I can now" (pulls out another ebook) "and while i'm at it ..."

These kinds of changes really should be in the main rulebook errata.

Though i'd be careful with the repentia as two or three frag grenades would end them.

malisteen
03-01-2014, 14:28
It doesn't even have a million attacks, it has 2. One on profile, plus a second for having 2 weapons.

Horrifically overpriced based on AP3 and Shred, at the expense of any other utility, grenades or resilience. The one, and only one, use of this unit is to kill Marine units out of cover and without Terminator armour. It's a good thing that Chaos Marines don't have any other options in the Fast Attack slot that excel at murdering 3+ saves. Particularly if it did so from range, at Strength 6 and mounted on a flier with 360* shooting.....

Warp Talons are bad, but they're not the worst unit in their book. That dubious honor goes to Possessed, who are the worst CSM unit by a mile. They're basically warp talons, for about the same points, but minus the jump packs so they can't even get to combat, and their melee attacks only bypass marine armour 1/3 of the time, so they can't reliably kill anything if they do get there. Even with talons costing a more valuable fast slot, I'd still play them over possessed any day. Talons can still do a thing - they cost way too much for the thing they do, but once they're on the table, provided they have enough terrain to screen their advance, they can do it. Possessed cannot even do a thing.

MajorWesJanson
03-01-2014, 14:34
Highlights the problem of supplementary material being pay to win.

Player A - "you can't assault out of buildings"
Player B (pulls out ebook) - "I can now" (pulls out another ebook) "and while i'm at it ..."

These kinds of changes really should be in the main rulebook errata.

Though i'd be careful with the repentia as two or three frag grenades would end them.

Stronghold Assault is basically a set of errata for the BRB section on buildings and fortifications, packaged with some rules for models that didn't have them before, and some missions.

A.T.
03-01-2014, 14:54
Stronghold Assault is basically a set of errata for the BRB section on buildings and fortificationsThen it should be in the BRB errata file IMO. They really are going the extra mile to rinse customers with this one.

A little off topic though.

Eldartank
03-01-2014, 15:14
I think the worst unit in any codex is the unit that has no actual models for it.

Charistoph
03-01-2014, 15:19
Stronghold Assault is basically a set of errata for the BRB section on buildings and fortifications, packaged with some rules for models that didn't have them before, and some missions.

Not quite. It's an expansion that can be treated as such. Your opponent should inform you before the game starts that they intend on using it. You don't have to pay for Erratas.


Highlights the problem of supplementary material being pay to win.

Player A - "you can't assault out of buildings"
Player B (pulls out ebook) - "I can now" (pulls out another ebook) "and while i'm at it ..."


Then the dude's being a jerk as he didn't say he was playing with Stronghold Assault before starting the game. It'd be the same as dropping a Harridan on the board to support his Orks or Space Marines.

budman
03-01-2014, 15:58
GK any assassin double for the sniper that can't hit a HQ Thanks look out sir
Tau the bomber with no bombs
Crons the Triarch Stalker overcosted scrap metal
Nids genestealers given that most of us first met the genestalers when they killed us in space crusade and space hulk to see the state of them these days is just... sad
over costed under armoured I can't recall the last 40K game I saw nid get in to cc with anything

09philj
03-01-2014, 16:54
Burna boyz aren't great,(flamers are support weapons, not primary armament) flash gitz don't work well either. The major problem is that they aren't as god as Lootas at shredding infantry or tankbustas at busting tanks. (Although Badrukk makes up for that).

A.T.
03-01-2014, 17:17
GK any assassin double for the sniper that can't hit a HQ Thanks look out sir The vindicare ignores look out sir (it's in the FAQ). Though I more often see him used to assassinate landraiders and bunkers with his quadruple rending sniper rifle.

Mandragola
03-01-2014, 17:19
Burna boyz firing from a battlewagon are death. Devastating unit. Kommandos and Flash Gitz are the guys who really don't work.

Spiney Norman
03-01-2014, 17:50
Tuesday.

Actually, I was going to say "nearly every vehicle" but then I was thinking about it, and could not remember the Stalker, as I never see one on the table. Just barges and planes.

Edit: OK, Warwalkers do count, as they do show up somewhat often. But they will drop to massed bolters.

I know, its not really the most competitive walker in the game, but I do live my giant arachnidal construct, its one of the coolest looking vehicles in the game IMHO.


Highlights the problem of supplementary material being pay to win.

Player A - "you can't assault out of buildings"
Player B (pulls out ebook) - "I can now" (pulls out another ebook) "and while i'm at it ..."

These kinds of changes really should be in the main rulebook errata.

Though i'd be careful with the repentia as two or three frag grenades would end them.

Sadly there isn't really any role that repentias can play that DCA's led by a priest and shielded by some crusaders can't accomplish for fewer points. A rerollable 3++ is really, really stupid.

Lokust
03-01-2014, 18:16
Not a codex unit, but I think the Eldar Firestorm deserves mention. S6 anti air in a game with AV12 flyers, some with IWND, just doesn't work.

Camman1984
03-01-2014, 19:20
Yeah honorary worst unit in codex for the firestorm.

Ironbone
03-01-2014, 19:58
Ethereals and Pyrovores were/are god-awful
Etherals are great force multipler for fire warrior gunline, way better than crade fireblades in that role. And they make sniper drones preety badass :p.

Scammel
03-01-2014, 20:03
Etherals are great force multipler for fire warrior gunline, way better than crade fireblades in that role. And they make sniper drones preety badass :p.

Looking really hard, not seeing Fireblades in the 4th ed Tau book. I used the word 'were'.

Spiney Norman
03-01-2014, 21:53
Not a codex unit, but I think the Eldar Firestorm deserves mention. S6 anti air in a game with AV12 flyers, some with IWND, just doesn't work.

Yep, it has exactly the same problem as the Nephilim Jetfighter, it just doesnt have the tools to do its job.

insectum7
03-01-2014, 23:51
No, its not. If I spend 230pts (5 tactical terms with a chainfist and cyclone), I get 5 2+/5++ T4 wounds, that move at 6" a turn, have a actual threat range (more than just the occasional rocket streaking across the board) of 30" and take an elites slot... The storm bolters suck. The multiple powerfists suck against anything with a wounds value. The cyclone as always is cool, but I am paying a minimum of 225pts for the pleasure of taking it. I can put one on a storm talon, with a threat range of 84" and skyfire (not to mention the TLAC) on a flying base for considerably less points and the fact that it flies and is immune to less than S5 shots I would equate to at least equal the "durability" of a terminator unit.
So the tactical termies suck at shooting. What about endurance and "threat"? Oh, look over there at their assault cousins. For 225pts I get 5 2+/3++ T4 wounds that can stick around in combat long enough to actually hit something with their attacks thanks to the storm shields. They absorb fire power like a sponge. When they do actually hit something that lives to see the next turn, we strike at the same time thanks to those hammers, dramatically increasing their ability to kill off MCs (something tactical terminators suck at).
There are also:- Honour Guard, Assault Centurions Devastator Centurions to fulfill your quota on 2+ saves, unit threat and damage output. Almost all of these for less points, or a least better points per head.

I appreciate that tactical terminators are cool, I my self tend to use 10 when I know im not going to be fighting too hard for the win, but they are the most neglected unit in the codex and it is really starting to show. Vanguard vets are another reason why they are falling behind too.

ZP

Well, I think we may differ in philosophy and the way we synergize units then. My short response to your unit comparisons would be that the Storm Talon can't engage in close combat, and the TH/SS Terminators can't shoot, while the Tac Terminators can do both. Maybe they don't work for you, but the idea of standard Terminators somehow being a contender for "worst unit in codex" seems like a bit of a stretch.

09philj
04-01-2014, 15:25
Have swooping hawks improved from 5th edition? Because in the 5th edition they were really bad.

wyvirn
04-01-2014, 16:23
Ripper swarms. They literally eat themselves. No one else can say that.

Voss
04-01-2014, 19:11
Ripper swarms. They literally eat themselves. No one else can say that.
The vengeance land speeder comes close.

csm
06-01-2014, 18:18
Mutilators

Inquisitor Kallus
06-01-2014, 18:48
Not a codex unit, but I think the Eldar Firestorm deserves mention. S6 anti air in a game with AV12 flyers, some with IWND, just doesn't work.

Its pretty lacklustre by todays standards because it was 'designed' rules wise a few editions ago when AV 10-11 (mostly 10) was the norm for flyers.

ColShaw
06-01-2014, 19:05
But the vengeance blows itself up! It comes with a much weaker gun than a vindicator, that gets hot, on a much softer platform, for a lot more points. Its a 2hp vehicle that does itself an average of 1.5hp of damage over a 6 turn game, meaning it's pretty likely to simply kill itself. No other unit in the game is like this.

IG Armored Sentinel with Plasma Cannon. ;)

Mandragola
06-01-2014, 19:30
IG Armored Sentinel with Plasma Cannon. ;)

Nowhere near! Armoured sentinels with plasma cannons aren't great, and have no real place in competitive lists I think, but you get a vehicle with armour, for just over half the price of a LS vengeance. With only 1 shot it's pretty hard for an armoured sentinel to kill itself in the course of a game, but the vengeance can have a good go at it. You can use the sentinel to tie up flesh hounds and the like as well, thanks to its proper front armour.

Armoured sentinels aren't amazing, but they look cool and remind me of star wars. They aren't a liability on the battlefield, they are just obviously worse than vendettas, like everything.

Yvain
06-01-2014, 20:15
PC Armored Sents are garbage and are a liability on the battlefield.

However, in the contest for worst units the Vengeance is impressively bad and wins between the two.

ColShaw
06-01-2014, 21:17
Nowhere near! Armoured sentinels with plasma cannons aren't great, and have no real place in competitive lists I think, but you get a vehicle with armour, for just over half the price of a LS vengeance. With only 1 shot it's pretty hard for an armoured sentinel to kill itself in the course of a game, but the vengeance can have a good go at it. You can use the sentinel to tie up flesh hounds and the like as well, thanks to its proper front armour.

Armoured sentinels aren't amazing, but they look cool and remind me of star wars. They aren't a liability on the battlefield, they are just obviously worse than vendettas, like everything.


PC Armored Sents are garbage and are a liability on the battlefield.

However, in the contest for worst units the Vengeance is impressively bad and wins between the two.

I agree that the PlasCannon Sentinels are pretty bad. Back in 5th Ed, Armored Sentinels had the very useful ability to tie down a great many things in combat; 3 Armored Sentinels would hold off even most assault units, basically all game long, as glancing hits failed to kill them. But now? Now, they're absolutely terrible.

Granted, however, they're not worse than the Vengeance. I was just pointing out another 2HP overpriced vehicle that could easily kill itself.

My vote for worst IG unit is probably Conscripts, like most other folks. Unless I can pick a character upgrade, in which case I vote for Nork Deddog.

Mandragola
06-01-2014, 22:43
The issue with plasma cannons on things like the armoured sentinel isn't so much that it will kill the sentinel (who cares? It's cheap!), but that it fails to fire.

roostar86
06-01-2014, 23:47
Decapitator followed by mandrakes then the court is fairly redundant

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itcamefromthedeep
06-01-2014, 23:53
Ripper swarms. They literally eat themselves. No one else can say that.

Current nid dex even worse than pyrovor the ripper swarm can't fight and commit suicide out side of synapse or the very worst spore mine cluster pay points for a model that dies and does nothing.
I think madden has the right of it.

In a book with a lot of stiff competition, it's the Spore Mine Cluster. Even the Ripper base doesn't look so bad when you realize that a single Spore Mine is the same price.

---

For Space Marines, I'll have to disagree with my fellows and say the Assault Marine takes the cake for worst unit in the codex. Even Whirlwinds aren't *that* bad.

---

In the case of Dark Angels, I think the Land Speeder Vengeance beats out Assault Marines.

---

In a similar vein, I think Storm Guardians have top honors for worst Eldar unit in the codex.

I think the firestorm is disqualified by way of not being in the codex at the moment.

A.T.
07-01-2014, 01:57
For Space Marines, I'll have to disagree with my fellows and say the Assault Marine takes the cake for worst unit in the codex.5 marines in a rhino with a meltabomb that rerolls to hit and a pair of flamers that reroll to wound for a hundred points ... only let down by it not being 5th edition anymore :p

I'm not sure i've seen any list contain the emperors champion for reasons other than nostalgia/flavour.

v0iddrgn
07-01-2014, 03:56
My vote goes to Flayed Ones. If they could perhaps ignore Morale checks after losing a combat and stay locked in then I would go the other way.

Shadeseraph
07-01-2014, 04:41
Eh, the sunshark bomber is no riptide, but I wouldn't say it is bad. It is actually quite flexible, and quite good anti-hordes and anti-flyers, and the ability to shoot at 3 different targets in a round and still bring interceptor weapons is great. To a degree, those roles can be filled by other units, but not in a single fast attack slot. I consider it quite close to Skyrays in utility, and those are deadly right now.

I cannot really say I think any single unit in the tau codex is bad. If I were to make a guess... I suppose the basic, un-cheesed commander, is quite underwhelming. It's quite good if you abuse it for wound allocation with an Iridium armor, as a support commander with C&CN/3MS/PEN, or as a Disc'O. But the vanilla one, used as intended with a couple weapons, is bad for the cost. I'd happily take his points in vespids.

totgeboren
07-01-2014, 07:51
For my CSM it is definitely the Heldrake. Talk about busted, it just ruins the game.

I haven't tried out all the units in the csm codex, but from my own experience the Dark Apostle is pretty bad, even worse than Possessed (whom I have also used many times). CSM have many of these, were in the same slot of the FOC, you have two equally expensive units, whilst one is pretty bad for the points, and one it alright. It sort of reinforces the badness when there is no reason whatsoever for picking the bad one over the good one.

Still, I'm happy that nothing is as bad as the old Chaos Spawn used to be in the previous codex. I think that unit might have been the single most worthless unit in the game, ever. Even worse than Mandrakes.

Vipoid
07-01-2014, 11:32
Dark Eldar - Kheradruakh the Decapitator. I'm sure my opponents are trembling at the 150+pt model who can pop into existence anywhere and do naff-all for a turn. Don't worry, I'm sure that T3 and 5++ save will keep him alive a looooong time. Oh, and his weapon also got nerfed to AP3 in 6th. Because, if any DE unit really needed an extra nerf, it was Kheradruakh the Decapitator. :eyebrows:

Necrons - It's tempting to say "any Heavy Support choice that isn't an Annihilation Barge", but I think I'll have to go with the flayed ones.

Tyranids - Lictors, Spore Mines, Rippers, Flying Rippers, The Pyrovore and Old One Eye.

Mandragola
07-01-2014, 17:01
There's definitely a difference here, with some codices giving up truly awful units, like the LS vengeance/neph and Kheradruakh the Decapitator, while others have just fairly bad units like assault marines or vespid. There are units that do their job badly, and ones that cannot do anything.

I think SoB Repentia may well hold the prize for the worst unit in the game. They are a close combat unit that can't really beat anything at all in close combat, and have no means of getting into combat in the first place anyway, which is sort of a double-whammy.

itcamefromthedeep
07-01-2014, 18:39
I think SoB Repentia may well hold the prize for the worst unit in the game. They are a close combat unit that can't really beat anything at all in close combat, and have no means of getting into combat in the first place anyway, which is sort of a double-whammy.Repentia aren't alone in that problem.

Some units are so bad that you could cut their price in half, and they still wouldn't be broken. I think Rippers and the Land Speeder Vengeance fit into this category. The vast majority of terrible units aren't *so* bad that they could have their price cut in half without becoming cost-effective. Even Howling Banshees wouldn't be that bad if they were fewer than 10 points. Nothing in the SM book deserves to have its price cut in half. If you want to find the worst unit in the game, you'll have to look elsewhere.

Beyond that you have models that you could cut down to a third of their price without breaking them, and that category includes things like naked Banishers from an Inquisitorial retinue (in my opinion), Old One-Eye in the 5e codex, and Kharadruakh.

However, I think only Spore Mines from the Spore Mine Cluster entry could actually be cut down to a 1/4 of their price without making them too good. Just the other day I put Spore Mines on the table (Biovore misses) and I'll tell you that it is *very* difficult to get those models to accomplish anything... and when they do they get removed. However, I'm open to dissent on that opinion.

I think old Ethereals and the Space Pope were so bad that you'd prefer not to have them on the table, but with them out of the way I think the bar for "worst unit in the game" needs to be a model that wouldn't be too good even if it were 1/4 of its current price. My experience with Lictors suggests that Kharadruakh could make a fight for that title, but in the end (to my eye) he looks like he should be pricier than a Rhino.

Bloodangeldante
07-01-2014, 22:24
Blood angel land speeders, their speciality horrid


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nerull1025
09-01-2014, 18:22
For chaos I'd say it's a tie between Possessed and Mutilators.
Possessed would be good if they had both power weapons and the +1 Attack and Initiative as standard.
As they are they're just a point sink and only a few points cheaper than terminators.

Mutilators aren't quite as good as Assault Centurians, but the kicker is you can only have half as many in a unit.
And I believe the assault centurian's weapon isn't unwieldy yet still Str 9.
Once again you're better off with terminators so there isn't much else worth taking for Elites.

Sephillion
09-01-2014, 18:47
For Dark Eldars Ė I would have said initially Mandrakes, no doubt. But Vipoid makes such a compelling argument for the Decapitator, thatís going to be my pick! Yeah, heís terrible.
For Dark Angels Ė Land Speeder Vengeance, of course. For 15 pts less, I can have a Vindicator. No as mobile, but much more resilient (still going in flames soon since itís such a fire magnet) and more powerful gun, ant it doesnít risk not firing or busting itself up. What were they thinking!
For CSM Ė I donít know, there are a lot of contenders, Possessed and Mutilators come to mind.