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Gingerwerewolf
02-01-2014, 13:57
With the rumor of 40k V6.1 or V7 coming round, would you be interested in Subscription based Rules?

For example a Monthly Subscription for the Main Rulebook and then you geta copy Digitally, updates automatically etc. Maybe a web Based Portal or special peice of Software that you install to a limited number of machines.

If yes, how much would you be willing to pay? (as in put down the Maximum you'd pay before not wanting it) NB with a provision that if you stopped paying you would loose access to it.

Would you still buy a Hardback edition? Or if they threw in all the codecies as well would you go to the maximum?

Options are in GBP or USD, and Monthly Fee

Menthak
02-01-2014, 15:13
No. 40k in my eye works of the system that when you buy a model or a set of rules they are yours. I shouldn't have to pay over time for a digital copy, I should hand in the money and get my book. Leave subscription based gaming for videogames.

Spiney Norman
02-01-2014, 15:24
Even 2.50 a month is 30 a year, or 120 for the life of a current 4 year edition (leaving aside comments about 6th possibly only being a 2 year edition).

I fail to see how that is better than paying 50 for a hardback rule book every 4 years and downloading the PDF FAQs for free.

Grand Master Raziel
02-01-2014, 15:28
In all fairness, GW shouldn't charge anything for their rules. Their line is that they sell models, not games, so the rules for the game you can play with the models should come for free. Maybe if GW had a better set of rules in the first place, and actively tried to address balance issues as they arose, I'd be willing to subscribe for some sort of modest fee. However, they have to show they can do that first before I'd be willing to put my money up.

nosebiter
02-01-2014, 15:42
In all fairness, GW shouldn't charge anything for their rules. Their line is that they sell models, not games, so the rules for the game you can play with the models should come for free. Maybe if GW had a better set of rules in the first place, and actively tried to address balance issues as they arose, I'd be willing to subscribe for some sort of modest fee. However, they have to show they can do that first before I'd be willing to put my money up.

Nail on head.

And as for the OP question.

No!! That would be horrible, the same as sub based online games.

TheFang
02-01-2014, 18:12
Hard backed books with built in 3-5 year redundancies are simply a waste of money. GW should go over to free online rules and codices. Save all the expense of printing and I'd guess people would be more likely to buy more models.

ehlijen
02-01-2014, 18:14
GW are already operating under the impression that we're just going to give them money whenever they bring out the next edition of a book, due to the obsoleting nature of the rules release system.

With a subscription model, I fear, they'd lose even the last worry in that regard: that people will just leave the hobby. And with that will go the last incentive to actually deliver quality rules.

Let GW work for my money. They are not good enough that I will ever give it to them up front, product unseen.

Gradek
02-01-2014, 18:23
I could actually see them go this route in some fashion (depending on how much they make on books). Something where you could download the basic rules only/statlines, but still offer all the fluff and pics in a hardback for purchase. If they thought it would grow the player base significantly, I am sure they would go this route.

Samsonov
02-01-2014, 18:25
I'd be very much against it. I would not pay a subscription fee for any other wargames rules and ultimately I think there are better wargames rules than GW.

Ruination Drinker
02-01-2014, 18:29
Hard backed books with built in 3-5 year redundancies are simply a waste of money. GW should go over to free online rules and codices. Save all the expense of printing and I'd guess people would be more likely to buy more models.

Precisely. I don't mind paying the guys who make up the rules. I do mind paying for a book where 90% of the equipment is either S4 Ap5 like it has been since the early 90's. If all the new codices are just going to take the "just glue more bolters to it and call it a day" approach, then they can can't complain when people find ways around buying their books.

otakuzoku
02-01-2014, 18:34
In all fairness, GW shouldn't charge anything for their rules. Their line is that they sell models, not games, so the rules for the game you can play with the models should come for free. Maybe if GW had a better set of rules in the first place, and actively tried to address balance issues as they arose, I'd be willing to subscribe for some sort of modest fee. However, they have to show they can do that first before I'd be willing to put my money up.

i couldn't have said it better my self

Khornies & milk
02-01-2014, 18:43
No way in hell would I pay GW for rules upfront, or from any other company for that matter, and especially not for subpar rules like the former's are. My group would simply play with older edition rules....oh wait, we already do, that's a win/win:cool:

insectum7
02-01-2014, 18:54
In all fairness, GW shouldn't charge anything for their rules. Their line is that they sell models, not games, so the rules for the game you can play with the models should come for free.

Their line is usually more that they are primarily a model company, but that doesn't mean exclusively a model company. Otherwise they might be called Models Workshop. :)

The overall rulebook in it's current form is more of a universe-introduction, hobby guide, miniatures showcase and catalog, in addition to the rules. It's clearly a format that works for them too, no surprise there. Having the rules downloadable as a separate entity would exclude their fantastic opportunity to put more product placement into your hand, and force you to flip through it. Pretty solid formula IMO.

Beppo1234
02-01-2014, 18:59
40k, the table top war game, is not a video game... it is that simple. Sure, use digital media of all sorts in the game to expand it, support it and make it better, faster, easier to learn etc. I'm all for it! But at the end of the day, it should be a game that should require no electricity to play. I think it will become one of their biggest selling points over time, that the kiddies actually have to do something without their pet bot.

so the idea of subscription rules leaves a sour taste in my mouth.

should rules be free? I could get behind that, but someone has to put those rules together, someone has to get paid to do that, and someone should get remunerated for providing all of us 40k fans with said material. If someone has to do it for free, the quality of material will inevitably drop. So paying for rules is ok. But I think it would be better, if following subscription scheme, if one would pay a price of $100 for 5 years of access to rules and updates, the entire rule set, not a single ebook that one has subscribed to. You pay the subscription fee, and get access to all current rules and updates for a given period of time. In a sense, a subscriber would be paying $20 a year, to have access to promotional and advertising material in the form of rules. $100 + or - the price of a codex or two (though prices a wildly ridiculous in the most recent codex releases), is what I pay for rules in 40k per edition anyways. What does the average GW customer pay for rules as well? BRB + a codex or two + an expansion maybe. Yeah, I'd pay up to $150 for an edition long subscription to all current rules and subsequent updates... until the next edition.

TheFang
02-01-2014, 19:01
If they redid the background and modelling guide filler to a decent standard each edition people might pay for that and they could still give away the rules free. In fact free rules and codices would have people making more visits to the GW website to download the new thing. Every 40k website would publicise the latest release or even minor update. Lots of hits from downloaders and updaters and the best free adverts you can get.

IcedCrow
02-01-2014, 19:04
Yes make *all* of the rules completely *free*. that's definitely how you run a business ;)

I mean authors, writers, artists, musicians, modelers, programmers, developers... they should all put out their material for free and we should decide if we want to tip them $5.00 with a paypal link or something right?

insectum7
02-01-2014, 19:10
Yes make *all* of the rules completely *free*. that's definitely how you run a business ;)

I mean authors, writers, artists, musicians, modelers, programmers, developers... they should all put out their material for free and we should decide if we want to tip them $5.00 with a paypal link or something right?

lol and +1

Information longs to be freeeee, man.

TheFang
02-01-2014, 20:09
Yes make *all* of the rules completely *free*. that's definitely how you run a business ;)

I mean authors, writers, artists, musicians, modelers, programmers, developers... they should all put out their material for free and we should decide if we want to tip them $5.00 with a paypal link or something right?No. Not the argument at all.:rolleyes:
GW makes the vast majority of it's profit on figures. If the rules were used intelligently as a marketing device for models they'd make more money.

IcedCrow
02-01-2014, 20:24
Really? ":rolleyes:"

I see a lot of quotes above you that say otherwise.

Even if they make the "vast majority of its profit on figures" (which none of us have a copy of the financial break down on its revenue so...we have no idea what percentage of money comes in the form of books), removing any part of that profit is non productive from a business standpoint.

"If the rules were used intelligently as a marketing device for models" sounds suspiciously like "If the rules were made to support what I want out of the game, they'd make more money"

Based on the context of the discussion that almost also sound like "if the rules were how I want them to be and given away for free then i'd buy more models so this means that everyone else would also do this, which means GW would make more money"

SanDiegoSurrealist
02-01-2014, 20:43
Giving away the rules for free, selling them online, selling them by subscription, or distributing them 1 rule at a time via bubble gum wrappers in not what is going to kill Games Workshop; MakerBot is.

http://store.makerbot.com/digitizer

Right now for around $3000 (but that price will drop quickly, remember when a VCR was $600!) you can have a a 3d printer and a 3d digitizer that makes 3D models that can be customized, using a program like ZBrush or 3DS Max, and print out 100 of them in about 12 minutes each.

Games Workshop should be figuring out how to sell downloadable 3d wire-frames of their models for people to print on their home 3D printers.

More on topic: GW will probably push to more digital releases, but I do not see a subscription base working for rule sets, but maybe to have access to a library of downloadable wire-frames.

DoctorTom
02-01-2014, 20:56
No. Not the argument at all.:rolleyes:
GW makes the vast majority of it's profit on figures. If the rules were used intelligently as a marketing device for models they'd make more money.

The fact that they're not making enough money off the models is the reason GW has turned to supplements and all the digital content, in order to make up the money that the shareholders are demanding they make.

They'd need to change their entire distribution model and not try to control the distribution as well as the manufacturing in order to make more money. (And, they'd make more money including greater distribution of Forge World when they made these changes).

Sgt John Keel
03-01-2014, 00:33
Yes make *all* of the rules completely *free*. that's definitely how you run a business ;)

I mean authors, writers, artists, musicians, modelers, programmers, developers... they should all put out their material for free and we should decide if we want to tip them $5.00 with a paypal link or something right?

Honestly, that depends a lot on the marketplace. Apple's programmers don't work for free, but they're still "giving away" their online services and software because they basically need to do that to be able to sell phones, since everyone is getting a ton of online services from Google with Android. The way Apple fund their things (high markups on devices) and the way Google fund their things (selling your eyeballs) are fundamentally different, but from the view of the customer it's something that could've cost extra and now doesn't.

Maybe the miniatures market will change too.


Giving away the rules for free, selling them online, selling them by subscription, or distributing them 1 rule at a time via bubble gum wrappers in not what is going to kill Games Workshop; MakerBot is.

http://store.makerbot.com/digitizer

Right now for around $3000 (but that price will drop quickly, remember when a VCR was $600!) you can have a a 3d printer and a 3d digitizer that makes 3D models that can be customized, using a program like ZBrush or 3DS Max, and print out 100 of them in about 12 minutes each.

Games Workshop should be figuring out how to sell downloadable 3d wire-frames of their models for people to print on their home 3D printers.

I love MakerBot for what they are, but honestly they are not near the level of quality yet. I also think that selling 3D-models for printouts will become a very niche business, akin to the that served by digital font foundries today. No-one except businesses are spending $150+ for a typeface, they are making do with what's included with the computer or using one of the thousands of free, often lower-quality, fonts available online.

As for the topic, I generally dislike paying subscription fees for content, unless it's a really good deal. I much prefer having something concrete to show for my money.

fenrisbrit
03-01-2014, 00:51
I echo most of the above: paying upfront is a bad idea, GW need to earn our money.

Losing Command
03-01-2014, 02:30
I'm not a fan of all the digital content to begin with (dno't wanna risk paying something online and have acount details and all cash stolen) prefer to read things on paper or something that 'looks' like it, so that are already a lot of things I don't like about the idea before even getting to the amount of subscription to pay. And from what I've heard the digital stuff GW released isn't exactly high quality :rolleyes:

MadHatter
03-01-2014, 04:29
I prefer the hardback books, reality is that it only takes one person to get a digital copy and press print for everyone in the community to have a copy. I personally like having both. I have both the hardback and a pdf copy of all my rulebooks.

i do not think i would pay for a subscription of the rules, i did not really care for 5th edition. And if i had to pay for it over a year to five years, would just irritate me to no end.

lanrak
03-01-2014, 10:10
IF GW plc hired professional proof readers and editors, and actually developed their games, AND focused on game play.

AND actually produced a rule set WORTH paying money for.(IMO.)

EG one at least as good as the best of the rules that are FREE downloads.
Then I might pay money for them.

But while the 40k rules are written specifically for newbs that never get around to play the game, and collectors that just want to push minatures around.
I can not see GW plc bothering to write a quality rule set worth my money any time soon.

budman
03-01-2014, 11:08
Do not want!
I got a kick in the teath a week ago when My pc got a heck of a nasty virus it was solved by a reformat and day One back up from over 2 years ago
I have not downloaded any 40K stuff I had before and I have a game on sunday
thank goodness I have paper BRB and dexs...

Camman1984
03-01-2014, 12:04
I would be worried about the subscription price creeping up and up, especially if they have the power to take away the whole rulebook if you dont pay. I think they will have the assumption that if we have already paid 50 to rent a book, then they can get away with another 50p per month, and another, and another. Oherwise everything spent before is wasted.

On the subject of 3d printing, the technology is years away for it to become a viable at home option to kill GW, and if there is technology for joe everyman to do it at home with decent quality and cheap price, surely GW can afford the 'next next generation' industrial 3d printers where they can bang out a whole release for a fraction of their current cost. It will hurt them when we all have 3d printers, but its not like they wont see it coming.

Sotek
03-01-2014, 12:05
Really? ":rolleyes:"

I see a lot of quotes above you that say otherwise.

Even if they make the "vast majority of its profit on figures" (which none of us have a copy of the financial break down on its revenue so...we have no idea what percentage of money comes in the form of books), removing any part of that profit is non productive from a business standpoint.

"If the rules were used intelligently as a marketing device for models" sounds suspiciously like "If the rules were made to support what I want out of the game, they'd make more money"

Based on the context of the discussion that almost also sound like "if the rules were how I want them to be and given away for free then i'd buy more models so this means that everyone else would also do this, which means GW would make more money"

The fact that riptides and wraithknights are massivly OP and new and happen to cost means that they ARE using the rules to market the models.

duffybear1988
03-01-2014, 12:16
The fact that they're not making enough money off the models is the reason GW has turned to supplements and all the digital content, in order to make up the money that the shareholders are demanding they make.

They'd need to change their entire distribution model and not try to control the distribution as well as the manufacturing in order to make more money. (And, they'd make more money including greater distribution of Forge World when they made these changes).

The reason they are not making enough money is because their kits are too expensive and they can't write good rules.

Now somehow they got it into their heads that producing digital rules that suck would boost their finances. Unfortunately for them, many people got wise and now wait for the one gullible sucker (which I have been) to post up a review before they make the decision to buy the digital copy.

The logical solution would be to either reduce the cost of the rules (as a lower cost lowers expectations), or to write better rules in the first place (thus justifying the stupidly high cost). As usual GW don't get it.

Subscription based rules sounds terrible because GW will abuse it to death. Now if they sold a hardback rulebook/codex that came with a digital copy that got updated with all the FAQ's on a monthly/quarterly basis then I would probably buy that. However that would only happen if I didn't have to pay a subscription fee, it didn't cost much more than they do now and if the rules themselves were worth it (currently they aren't). Frankly 30 for a codex which has slightly modified rules from the previous codex is ridiculous. With the added incentive of a free regularly updated digital version I could see myself buying some more of them.

IcedCrow
03-01-2014, 12:41
The fact that riptides and wraithknights are massivly OP and new and happen to cost means that they ARE using the rules to market the models.

....ok? I didn't say they weren't using rules to market models though.

DoctorTom
03-01-2014, 15:17
The reason they are not making enough money is because their kits are too expensive and they can't write good rules.



It's part of the death spiral they're trying to break out of. The shareholders expect a certain return, and when it doesn't look like GW is going to make it, GW boosts the prices of the models, which leads to fewer people buying them because they're more expensive, which means they're not going to get the money they need, so they raise prices even more (or the equivalent, keep the price but cut the number of models in the box in half like they did with Dire Avengers), which causes fewer people to want to buy the expensive models, etc., etc.

The supplements and digital content are their attempt to break out of the death spiral.

duffybear1988
03-01-2014, 15:24
The supplements and digital content are their attempt to break out of the death spiral.

Well they're doing a pretty poor job of it if I'm honest. I've seen fan work that's more consistant and balanced - and that's free! :D

Disposable Hero
03-01-2014, 19:45
Don't they sell a digital BRB that updates itself?

DoctorTom
03-01-2014, 20:31
Not the non-Ipad version. And they can always choose to not update the Ipad one if they decide on a different business model like charging a subscription.

ehlijen
03-01-2014, 21:10
Apparently GW's profits are, or have been until not too long ago, fairly stable despite the price increases. That means at least for some time, the increased prices made up for the fewer customers in full. No growth with a shrinking customer base means it's not a viable long term strategy, but it wasn't failing them in the short term.

If this was true (don't have their records to check), why would GW assume lowering the prices would increase profits? The prices used to be lower, but got them similar profits. Ie they had to move more stock for the same end result.

And who says the players are leaving because of the higher prices? What if the price raises are a consequence of players leaving for other reasons. Then lowering them wouldn't bring those players back either.

Now, it's true that GW need to break out of this. They can't keep upping the price and rely on less and less customers. But I think the solution lies in some other change than their pricing policy, or at least some other change in addition to that. (I would like their prices to go down, of course, but I understand that they want the opposite, market forces and all).

duffybear1988
03-01-2014, 22:00
And who says the players are leaving because of the higher prices? What if the price raises are a consequence of players leaving for other reasons. Then lowering them wouldn't bring those players back either.

Now, it's true that GW need to break out of this. They can't keep upping the price and rely on less and less customers. But I think the solution lies in some other change than their pricing policy, or at least some other change in addition to that. (I would like their prices to go down, of course, but I understand that they want the opposite, market forces and all).

I totally agree - price for many wouldn't be such an issue if it felt like they were getting the premium product GW are marketing. Putting that bit of extra work into the rules would go a long way to currying them some favour, they just need to be more consistent with their rules writing. You know if they somehow managed to combine the best parts of 4th and 6th editions they would have a really good ruleset. Have 4th bring some much needed balance to rein in some of the crazier stuff from 6th, but retain for the most part the fun of 6th. Fingers crossed for 7th.

Coldhatred
04-01-2014, 04:30
No way would I pay a subscription for rules. Ever.

Could the rules be less expensive, let it cover it's costs and be done? Yes, but it won't happen because that would be (at least) a short term loss in profits which would be unacceptable to stock holders.

stroller
04-01-2014, 18:30
Bonkers idea.

theunwantedbeing
04-01-2014, 18:55
With the rumor of 40k V6.1 or V7 coming round, would you be interested in Subscription based Rules?
What would be the point? :eyebrows:

Ozybonza
05-01-2014, 01:08
Subscription for rules would be OK, but it would have to add value.

For example, $10 - $15 per month for the "40k pack". This gives you access to all rules, supplements, codecies, FW books and dataslates in digital formal while you maintain the subscription. You could have different tiers of susbscription, allowing more content the more you pay.

The idea there would be that you would probably end up spending more on rules than you otherwise would, but you are also getting more out of it. This wouldn't have to replace the existing digital or hardback versions, just be another option.

Grand Master Azrael
05-01-2014, 01:31
6th edition had better be around until 2016, or else I'm not going to buy a new edition of the rules every 2 years

IcedCrow
05-01-2014, 01:32
I wouldnt worry about 6th ed going away. Its wishful thinking by those that dont like it on the internet rumor train.

Gradek
05-01-2014, 13:14
I would love for the option of a subscription based rules service that provided access to all the codex/rules/supplements (updated constantly). However, I would not want this to replace the books entirely.

draccan
05-01-2014, 14:01
Knowing GW and the current rumours put together I would say subscriptions are coming and prices in this poll are at the best optimistic.

I think on the other a much better move for them would be to put all rules for free on the web. Create living rulebooks and versionize them. This would allow them to quicker fix mistakes.

I still think they could make a pretty penny on background books, campaign books and the sort, kinda like the current supplements just with the rules posted free online.

The current situation is frustrated for all parties.