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View Full Version : Just confused. Is the new tyranid codex not on official sales yet?



Sinsigel
05-01-2014, 09:24
I bought the new tyranid codex to share it with my fellow gamers yesterday.
Then I searched the internet to see how other gamers in the world thought about it, but curiously I couldn't find any new codex reviews written in english at least.
Is it still being pre-ordered? Or is the official codex realease date different depending on regions?
I'm still not sure if I posted on the right forum, and I think the admins might move the thread to other forums or delete it.

Darnok
05-01-2014, 09:26
The official release date is January the 11th, so next Saturday. You were lucky to get it a week early.

Learn2Eel
05-01-2014, 09:35
Wait, you actually have the new codex?

First up, congratulations!

Secondly.....oh please god give us some details! Lol.

Sinsigel
05-01-2014, 09:38
Not sure if i can 'leak' some infos here. Hope I don't get sued.
Besides, I haven't read the entire codex carefully and it's in the clubhouse now so i can't check the info easily.
I can only remember glimpse of what was changed in the new codex. Impalercannons for example will be even more hated by eldar wave serpents.

Dkoz
05-01-2014, 09:39
Don't let GW know what game store you got it from that just spells trouble for your LGS. Yes please give us some details.

Darnok
05-01-2014, 09:41
Don't post pictures from the codex. Don't give full unit stats or point costs (including things like "costs five current gaunts" or similar). Apart from that I see no problems at all in giving details about the contents.

nosebiter
05-01-2014, 09:44
Any units in the with new miniatures not released this month?

Learn2Eel
05-01-2014, 09:45
Not sure if i can 'leak' some infos here. Hope I don't get sued.
Besides, I haven't read the entire codex carefully and it's in the clubhouse now so i can't check the info easily.
I can only remember glimpse of what was changed in the new codex. Impalercannons for example will be even more hated by eldar wave serpents.

That's fine mate :) Really anything you can say is very much appreciated. The blurb about Impaler Cannons for example has me really thinking about how they have changed. I'm guessing they just have a flat Ignores Cover now?


Don't post pictures from the codex. Don't give full unit stats or point costs (including things like "costs five current gaunts" or similar). Apart from that I see no problems at all in giving details about the contents.

Basically this. I'm not a moderator on any forum, but these are always the guidelines each forum I frequent follows. I'm not sure if it is also the case on Warseer but posting exact quotes can also get you in trouble, so maybe just be more general.

Sinsigel
05-01-2014, 09:48
I don't mind sharing infos. The only things that irk me is that I might have forgotten some details and deliver wrong info, and therefore disappointing others.
Other thing is fear that GW might 'track' down the threads I've written all over the forum(in some of threads I specified which country I'm from) and take action either against me or local shop.

Darnok
05-01-2014, 09:55
Are there any pictures of new models in the codex that are not part of this months release?

Learn2Eel
05-01-2014, 09:56
I don't mind sharing infos. The only things that irk me is that I might have forgotten some details and deliver wrong info, and therefore disappointing others.
Other thing is fear that GW might 'track' down the threads I've written all over the forum(in some of threads I specified which country I'm from) and take action either against me or local shop.

As much as it pains me to say it (I'm a huge Tyranid player) if you feel apprehensive about posting details from the codex, then don't post them :) No one is forcing you to post them mate!
However, we of course massively appreciate anything you send our way. Even if you give us a rough idea on some stuff, for example "are Brainleech Devourers the same", then we'll be very happy :D

Sinsigel
05-01-2014, 10:04
I started the thread and excited some of the players so I think I should show some signs of taking 'responsibilities' at least.
I won't be writing down points cost(even indirectly for instance 'this model now costs 45 gaunts'), profiles or minor details of new special rules however.
Also, keep in mind I have only skimmed through both the old and new tyranid codex, so i might have remebered something wrong. Add a pinch of salt.

I haven't carefully looked at the painting gallery but i think there were no new models that were not a part of Janauary release.
Big gribblies seem to have decreased in cost though. And Synapse Creature rules offer no protection against the much feared Grey knights' 'special ability' if you know what I mean.
Boneswords obviously were toned down in line with other factions' power weapons in 6th ed. Zoanthropes' psychic shooting can be amplified like IG psychic brotherhood.
Scything Talons......why are these on monstrous creatures now?


If I have time to visit clubhouse during week, I will do if I can. Don't put too much hope though. I might not be able to(nor am I obligated to) answer every single question I'm afraid.
And if possible, please don't cut&paste these to other sites outside this thread. My answers aren't really worth it and I don't think spreading it is good idea.

Learn2Eel
05-01-2014, 10:14
Sounds good mate :)

Synapse not conferring Eternal Warrior is not a surprise, but it does unfortunately leave Warriors in a bit of a sad state given that we have seen their full profile.
Cost decreases on the big monsters fits with what we have seen from the White Dwarf. We know so far the Trygon Prime has dropped a bit (we know nothing about the regular Trygon), Carnifexes/Old One Eye/Hive Tyrants/Tyrannofexes have dropped massively, Harpies have dropped quite a bit, and Tervigons/The Swarmlord have gone up.

Interesting on the Zoanthrope bit. Is it similar to Pink Horrors where only one could manifest the power, but the more in the brood the stronger it is, or is it something else entirely? Zoanthropes having Brotherhood of Psykers would make me sad lol.

Here are some questions, if you don't want to answer then I won't be offended :)

Do you remember if Mawlocs and Trygons went up or down?
Is the Harpy harder to kill than before?
Any changes to the weapons you noticed? I think many are mostly interested in Brain Leech Devourers.
Did you see what Shadow in the Warp does?

Thanks again mate!

Sinsigel
05-01-2014, 10:21
If I remember correctly, the new nids might not be able to imitate space marine's novelty - the steel rain
I think I might not be able to post further due to my own business. So don't feel offended even if your questions remian unanswered.

Learn2Eel
05-01-2014, 10:22
Again, it's no problem mate :) If you can or can't post, either way it's all good!

No Mycetic Spores? Ah well.

Commissar Davis
05-01-2014, 12:44
Just two question:

1) Is the new codex a big enough improvement end the Tyranid player crying?

2) Is the Pirovore (sp?) fixed?

Sinsigel
06-01-2014, 14:54
Some infos. Do mind that I had little time today to skim through both new and old codex to note differences. So my memory might not be accurate.

Pyrovore remains largley unchanged save that it gets slight boost to wounds, attacks and initiative.
Its cost is slightly reduced while acid maw attack is given at a bit higher strength but at the cost of making only single attack.

Mawlocs and trygon both are cheaper. Mawloc especially is about 20~25% cheaper.
Mawloc's special rule Terror from the Deep is still much same......except that when the damage is resolved hiding in ruin or cover of other kind is literally useless.
Mawloc can also resolve damage(via Terror from the Deep) more than once if there isn't enough space.

Shadow in the Warp gives penalty to nearby enemy psykers' leadership.

Harpy is also cheaper. Its wounds and attacks are slightly boosted.

Carnifex and tyrannofex both became considerably cheaper. Around 25~30 percent or so.
Carnifex can still take devourer with brainleech worms which remains same as before.(Just without its penalty to enemy leadership)
It has less attacks and slightly higher initiative, but it can inflict more than one Hammer of Wrath hits.

Both types of gaunts became slightly cheaper albeit the upgrades are bit more expensive.
Zoanthropes are also cheaper.
And as forementioned in my previous replies, impaler cannons will be the bane of eldar wave serpents if they come within range.

As for biomorphs, crushing claws are changed in a way that they don't give extra attacks but are more effective against vehicles plus strength buff.
Regeneration probability became much higher.
Tentaclids and electroshock grubs are effective against vehicles(Bionic EMP I suppose)
Other than some boosted version of already existing shooting attack, I see no significant difference.

Taking account of its crushing claws, Haruspex has decent strength(stronger than mawloc, weaker than carnifex) with small number of attacks.
It however can increase its attacks depending on how many wounds it suffered, while at the same time can regain the wounds.
Its blood is also acid while its tongue attack can pierce terminator armour.

Boneswords inflict Instant Death depending on to-wound roll while lash whip boosts wielder's initiative.

Warlord traits include buff to synapse range, reducing cover, turning a forest into more carnivorous one, etc.
Psychic powers include another buff to synapse range, FNP, pinning test with additional leadership modifier, pseudo-psychic shriek etc.

Last thing. Malantai is NOT destroyed by a single zoanthrope.
And no more steel rain for tyranids.

nosebiter
06-01-2014, 14:59
Sounds..... Underwhelming, if you like me like you big bugs cc equipped :-(

Scything talons do what now?

Sinsigel
06-01-2014, 15:01
Scything talons? Eldar striking scorpion chainswords without strength buff :(

nosebiter
06-01-2014, 15:39
Thats mega crap!!

If tyranids have devolved into being a shooting army, then it holds no interest for me at all.

Gingerwerewolf
06-01-2014, 16:17
Dont count your chickens until they've hatched.

No one has asked the important questions:

What does Synapse do?
Have Adrenal Glands or Toxin Sacks changed and if so how?
What are the three Instinctive behaviors?

These are core.

Ill also add that none of the above statements are new. We've heard them all before.

Learn2Eel
06-01-2014, 16:26
Some infos. Do mind that I had little time today to skim through both new and old codex to note differences. So my memory might not be accurate.

Pyrovore remains largley unchanged save that it gets slight boost to wounds, attacks and initiative.
Its cost is slightly reduced while acid maw attack is given at a bit higher strength but at the cost of making only single attack.

Mawlocs and trygon both are cheaper. Mawloc especially is about 20~25% cheaper.
Mawloc's special rule Terror from the Deep is still much same......except that when the damage is resolved hiding in ruin or cover of other kind is literally useless.
Mawloc can also resolve damage(via Terror from the Deep) more than once if there isn't enough space.

Shadow in the Warp gives penalty to nearby enemy psykers' leadership.

Harpy is also cheaper. Its wounds and attacks are slightly boosted.

Carnifex and tyrannofex both became considerably cheaper. Around 25~30 percent or so.
Carnifex can still take devourer with brainleech worms which remains same as before.(Just without its penalty to enemy leadership)
It has less attacks and slightly higher initiative, but it can inflict more than one Hammer of Wrath hits.

Both types of gaunts became slightly cheaper albeit the upgrades are bit more expensive.
Zoanthropes are also cheaper.
And as forementioned in my previous replies, impaler cannons will be the bane of eldar wave serpents if they come within range.

As for biomorphs, crushing claws are changed in a way that they don't give extra attacks but are more effective against vehicles plus strength buff.
Regeneration probability became much higher.
Tentaclids and electroshock grubs are effective against vehicles(Bionic EMP I suppose)
Other than some boosted version of already existing shooting attack, I see no significant difference.

Taking account of its crushing claws, Haruspex has decent strength(stronger than mawloc, weaker than carnifex) with small number of attacks.
It however can increase its attacks depending on how many wounds it suffered, while at the same time can regain the wounds.
Its blood is also acid while its tongue attack can pierce terminator armour.

Boneswords inflict Instant Death depending on to-wound roll while lash whip boosts wielder's initiative.

Warlord traits include buff to synapse range, reducing cover, turning a forest into more carnivorous one, etc.
Psychic powers include another buff to synapse range, FNP, pinning test with additional leadership modifier, pseudo-psychic shriek etc.

Last thing. Malantai is NOT destroyed by a single zoanthrope.
And no more steel rain for tyranids.

Thanks again mate! I'm going to do reading between the lines for anyone else interested, plus my thoughts :)

Sounds like the Pyrovores will still be crap, however, having 3 wounds each, 2 attacks base at Initiative 2 plus a cost reduction - assuming 5 points - is better than nothing. Acid Maw still AP2 I assume, and done at Strength 5 or 6, makes them similar to Screamers in combat. Eh. Could be worse I guess.

Wow on the Mawloc stuff, even if it is 20% points drop instead of 25%, that means it is now 125-130 points! That's crazy good! Trygons I assume are only about 10-20 points cheaper then.
So Terror from the Deep has Ignores Cover now? Oh wow. Mawlocs just got elevated into holy crap tier. Not only did they drop 40 points, but their S6 AP2 large blast has Ignores Cover. Jesus Christ.
Resolving the damage twice if the unit can't move is pretty hilarious, I must say. Wow....just wow. Mawlocs are going to be amazing now.

Shadow in the Warp penalizing Leadership is expected, I assume it is the -3 that everyone has pointed to. A debuff, but still great psyker defence.

Ok, so the Harpy is now T5, W5, A3, 4+. That's.....eh. For 135 points, it isn't as bad as I feared it could be. Still, a 3+ would have given it so much leeway against Skyfire/Interceptor Broadsides, Quad Guns, Hydras, Stalkers, Flakk Missiles, etc. The extra wound and price bump are welcome, but won't make up for that. If the Crone is the same, I think it and the Harpy will probably rest in the "decent to good" category then.

So the Carnifex is indeed 110-120 base, with Tyrannofexes being about 190-200 base. Very nice indeed.
So Carnifexes now have 3 Attacks and Initiative 2. At least they now only fail Jaws 50% of the time. Sounds like D3 Hammer of Wrath hits. Not too shabby, they got the most important thing and that was a points drop.

Brainleech Devourers are the same? HOLY CR*P. We know from the White Dwarf that a Hive Tyrant with two brain-leech devourers in the new codex is 205 when you subtract the standardized psychic mastery level cost. That is a huge points drop for the same effectiveness, with guns that were already really strong? Wow. Just wow. They are really pushing Tyranids as a ranged army! If Dakkafexes aren't too expensive they will continue to be favoured for sure.

Cheaper Zoanthropes? Nice, though without the Mycetic Spore, their uses are going to be more limited. That is reassuring about Hive Guard, I presume that because you specifically mention Wave Serpents the Impaler Cannons will have a flat Ignores Cover and possibly shoot an extra shot.

So Crushing Claws have Armourbane and either +1 or +2 to Strength. That's not a bad trade-off, but with Smash, I think most would have preferred the +D3 attacks. However, these are available on Tyrant Guard, and they are presumably AP2 as well. Not bad....not bad at all.
So Regeneration is either a 5+ or a 4+, or is just It Will Not Die. Yay for Nidzilla! Really, this codex seems to be shoving Nidzilla down our throats by the sounds of it.
So Tentaclid Missiles and one of the flamer variants for the Tyrannofex are Haywire. Man, even if the Crone has the same defensive stats as the new Harpy, it will still be a great deal.

So the Haruspex is S7/S8 with 3 attacks by the sounds of it. Interesting to see the bit about regaining wounds and gaining extra attacks was true, so that rumour earlier from Terrorfex was accurate after all. Just to add here, this means the following is probably also true; Exocrine is BS3 if it moves, BS4 if stationary. 24" range, 6 S7 AP2 shots or S7 AP2 large blast. Shadow in the Warp is -3 to Leadership. Both the Exocrine and Haruspex have T6 W5 3+. I like this! AP2 tongue attack is nice, have to see the Strength value though.

Lash Whips boosting Initiative is a debuff in every sense; what happens when you charge into terrain without grenades? Before you struck simultaneously, now you still go last. Argh.
Warlord Traits sound cool and useful. The carnivorous jungle thing sounds hilarious.
So I presume the Horror is the one with the Pinning Test? Eh, not too bad, but depending on how effective it is it could actually be a big thing for Genestealers. After all, the Broodlord always has it....

Overall, it seems like they have penalized Tyranid melee quite a bit with big to massive debuffs for all the close combat weapons. Trygons have severely lost out on combat effectiveness, while taking scything talons on pretty much anything really isn't worth it. Hormagaunts will probably still be left on the shelf, and if Dakkafexes are in the 140-150 points range, there won't be any reason not to use them. Dakka Flyrants will still be the kings of the HQ slot. Harpies and Crones look to be decent but their durability will be an issue. The new monsters sound decent but we don't have the full picture. My impressions are that Tyranids are going to become a scary gunline army in a lot of ways with significantly cheaper Flyrants, the new Crones, significantly cheaper Dakkafexes/Tyrannofexes, and Mawlocs being so much cheaper at bunker busting. Add in that it seems like Hive Guard got a buff and we could be looking at a really competitive shooting army. That's just the problem though....it looks like our melee options still aren't great. Again, don't have the full picture, so will wait and see before further comment....


Scything talons? Eldar striking scorpion chainswords without strength buff :(

That's....wow. So Scything Talons no longer give re-rolls of 1s as a single pair or re-roll all to hits as two pairs, but are instead just AP6?
That's ridiculous. Well, sounds like there's no reason to take them on...anything. Poor Hormagaunts. And hey, guess what, the Trygon just got a lot worse! Yay! Because the Trygon wasn't an over-costed melee monster in the edition of cheaper Riptides and similarly priced Wraithknights....not at all. Nope. *SIGH*

Learn2Eel
06-01-2014, 16:29
Dont count your chickens until they've hatched.

No one has asked the important questions:

What does Synapse do?
Have Adrenal Glands or Toxin Sacks changed and if so how?
What are the three Instinctive behaviors?

These are core.

Ill also add that none of the above statements are new. We've heard them all before.

Actually, a lot of the stuff Sinsigel just posted is new. We had no idea about any of the melee weapons aside from Boneswords, we had no info about Mawlocs whatsoever, we didn't know if Brainleech Devourers were the same (that they are means our Dakkaflyrants/Dakkafexes are insanely good now with the 30-55 point drops), we had no clue about Zoanthropes, a lot of the Biomorphs, improved Impaler Cannons, the Warlord Traits or what the Horror did. He posted a lot of new info and I am extremely grateful for it.

With that in mind, a massive, massive thanks to you Sinsigel! Whether you share any more info or not, know that you've made this Hive Commander a very happy bug!

It really seems to me like the codex authors thought to themselves "let's make Tyranid melee worse, but massively buff their shooting". I'm eh on this. We really should have been the first army after Daemons to prove that melee still does well when written the right way. Now it looks like we are just being shoe-horned into another gun-line army.

Voss
06-01-2014, 16:32
Scything talons? Eldar striking scorpion chainswords without strength buff :(
Ugh. That isn't worthwhile on... anything (and doesn't actually matter on MCs). Even with that designer's note that they grant an additional attack as a second pair of weapons, they certainly aren't worth paying for on genestealers, and it is a pretty direct penalty to raveners, hormagaunts, and even default carnifex and trygon builds.


Still, thanks for providing info. A lot of the rest is quite interesting indeed.

Learn2Eel
06-01-2014, 16:39
Ugh. That isn't worthwhile on... anything (and doesn't actually matter on MCs). Even with that designer's note that they grant an additional attack as a second pair of weapons, they certainly aren't worth paying for on genestealers, and it is a pretty direct penalty to raveners, hormagaunts, and even default carnifex and trygon builds.

Yep. I can't understand why they would do it. I can understand lash whips getting a nerf, but perhaps a points drop, as well as the bonesword nerf and the Crushing Claw possible nerf. But Scything Talons just being AP6? What the heck? When is that ever legitimately going to be useful? By the sounds of it, the Trygon didn't drop much at all - maybe 20 points at most - and its' combat efficiency just went down immensely. Sure, it probably has base 7 attacks now, but that doesn't make up for re-rolling all failed to hit rolls in any way shape or form. Why would you ever take the stock two pairs of scything talons on Carnifexes? And did they not realize that Hormagaunts desperately need to drop to the same points cost at least of Termagants while retaining the same combat effectiveness and speed as they had before? Why would anyone ever want Hormagaunts over Termagants?

The Troops section sounds busted again, which is annoying as heck; competitively, it will probably just devolve into some variation of Tervigon/Termagant spam. Boring. Double Flyrants with brain-leech devourers being 55 points cheaper each makes them an almost auto-take unless everything else got a lot better. Boring. Heavy Support, Fast Attack and Elites should be interesting, but it again seems like Dakkafexes severely outclass Meleefexes. Mawlocs with their bunker-busting ability now look to be one of the best monsters in the book, which is a great change, but at the expense of the Trygon, it is a bit deflating. Hive Guard were already a great unit, and sound like they are even better. Just seems like, competitively, this codex will devolve mostly into the same foundations as the previous codex. Pretty deflating honestly, but I'll give it more of a chance.

Just an FYI, I'm tired and sulky, so I'm going to be a lot more negative in these posts than I normally am :p

Templar101
06-01-2014, 16:42
Does the Haruspex have a 12" move and does the Trygon tunnel synergise better with other units?

Voss
06-01-2014, 16:54
Just an FYI, I'm tired and sulky, so I'm going to be a lot more negative in these posts than I normally am :p

Understandable.

Regarding carnifexes: I honestly don't get it (I realize I'm repeating you a bit, but this is just odd). Points drop is great and fine (and needed). But between the claws and talons... I can't see a reason to put any melee weapons on them at all- crushing claws do something, but I rarely have an urge to chase down a tank with a 6" move. With ranged weapons, their effectiveness in combat is only marginally less, but their ability to do something for the rest of the game is much more impressive.

Crushing claws might be useful on tyrant guard, however.

Regarding troops:
To be honest, I didn't expect much from hormagaunts (again).
Depending on some details, a minimum squad of stealers might be useful as a broodlord delivery system, or other speciality gimmick, but large squads are probably still far too expensive to be effective
Termagants are obviously the mainstay. Either cheap as buttons, or the ever nasty devourer execution squads (Death by Bees!)
A supporting tervigon is just as obvious.
Warriors... warriors have some potential. Particularly poison/bonesword warriors surrounded by a cloud of lesser bugs, as a second wave melee strike. Actually, that the lash whips are a potential bonus for them when combined with flesh hooks (if the latter still count as assault grenades). It means they're doing the job that stealers are supposed to do.

innerwolf
06-01-2014, 16:59
Haven't you considered Scything talons could be very cheap or free (default) for most units, so you only need to change one of the sets to a useful weapon and getting a cheap extra attack? Exactly the same as bolt pistol+ccw and changing the ccw to a better weapon.

Voss
06-01-2014, 17:05
Haven't you considered Scything talons could be very cheap or free (default) for most units, so you only need to change one of the sets to a useful weapon and getting a cheap extra attack? Exactly the same as bolt pistol+ccw and changing the ccw to a better weapon.
Sure. But that doesn't apply to gene stealers (apparently they are +4ppm). Or hormagaunts. Raveners pay a serious price for rending claws (and +1 attack is inferior to rerolls on all their attacks). Trygons don't have options, so it is an absolute negative. Carnifexes have either talons or crushing claws, and the shooting options are just better.
It could matter on warriors and probably is a buff on tyrants and maybe even tyrant guard. But everything else? This is a bad thing.

I could have lived with 'only reroll ones' and just the +1 attack for two sets, but dropping from rerolls to jack/squat is just baffling. I'm just glad I had little inclination to go melee heavy, and resigned myself to never fielding hormagaunts a long time ago.

innerwolf
06-01-2014, 17:31
Sure. But that doesn't apply to gene stealers (apparently they are +4ppm). Or hormagaunts. Raveners pay a serious price for rending claws (and +1 attack is inferior to rerolls on all their attacks). Trygons don't have options, so it is an absolute negative. Carnifexes have either talons or crushing claws, and the shooting options are just better.
It could matter on warriors and probably is a buff on tyrants and maybe even tyrant guard. But everything else? This is a bad thing.

I could have lived with 'only reroll ones' and just the +1 attack for two sets, but dropping from rerolls to jack/squat is just baffling. I'm just glad I had little inclination to go melee heavy, and resigned myself to never fielding hormagaunts a long time ago.

It's a nerf? Sure. It's reasoneable? To streamline the CC system between armies, it is. Scything talons at least have an anecdotal buff over plain ccw.
I haven't seen the point cost or options of Tyranid units, but if genestealers get only rending claws by default the have the option of adding a pair of scything talons for +1 attack, I don't see how it is outrageous. Of course, if the option for two pairs of scything talons exists, it would be stupid to take it except if it gave a points refund.

vortexdr
06-01-2014, 18:01
Thats mega crap!!

If tyranids have devolved into being a shooting army, then it holds no interest for me at all.

Eh thing is they can get away with it fluff wise seeing that Tyranids always adapt from prior hive fleets experiences fighting races. In the age of Riptides and Wrathknights why wouldnt a melee army go more shooty.

Still sucks and I'm not happy about it...Maybe adrenal glands can save them? Thing is if they are doing this to Nids then Ork's will surely lose any ability to melee as nids should arguably be the best at it.

kjolnir
06-01-2014, 18:02
Dont count your chickens until they've hatched.

No one has asked the important questions:

What does Synapse do?
Have Adrenal Glands or Toxin Sacks changed and if so how?
What are the three Instinctive behaviors?

These are core.

Ill also add that none of the above statements are new. We've heard them all before.

Yeah, this is why I'm very hesitant to ascribe much credence to any of it.

The "leaks" ignore core mechanics we know nothing about up to this point, and really only reiterate stuff that we already know. Wouldn't it sure be nice to know what synapse and adrenal glands do? Wonder why we haven't heard anything about that.

I also find the up-front qualifier about memory and codex availability and fear of being hunted down by the GW secret police to be huge red flags. It's a way of explaining away the stuff that might just be outright fabrication and also explaining away obvious gaps in information.

If I had the codex in hand today, I sure as heck wouldn't be this circumspect, and while I might leave out points costs references, I'd tell everyone what synapse and adrenal glands do.

And +4 pts for scything talons that basically do nothing which also represents a huge nerf for Trygons? Come on. That one just reeks of "I made it up."

I'll believe it when I see it, or when it's corroborated by known-reliable sources.

kjolnir
06-01-2014, 18:07
And for the record, I don't buy the whole "I'm afraid of being sued by GW" bit. By the time the GW secret police hunted you down over teh interwebz, drafted a C&D letter, sent it you and you finally received it, it'd be well past the Saturday release date for the book. At worst, you'd be looking at taking down the info that was already irrelevant since we'd all have the book.

Nah, I'm chalking this one up with as much credibility as 4chan.

jonadaya
06-01-2014, 18:13
I really hope these aren't true, but I suspect they are as they are dumb enough...

kjolnir
06-01-2014, 18:22
I really hope these aren't true, but I suspect they are as they are dumb enough...

Compare the directness, lack of ambiguity, and tone of confidence that Endobai relayed his information to us. Then compare it to this guy waffling all over the place before he even started talking.

MadmanMSU
06-01-2014, 18:44
This is the same guy that was trolling earlier.

v0iddrgn
06-01-2014, 18:46
If the Broodlord can effectively pin units prior to assaulting them that would solve their initiative penalty problem right there. The key is having it be reliable.

Vengalis
06-01-2014, 19:10
I find a lot of what this guy is posting to be highly suspect. I am certain that if I had a copy of the codex in my hands now I would be able to answer the critical questions that all Nid players are asking, and which, to be honest, this guy is not addressing at all. So either we get something more concrete on what SiTW does now, instinctive behaviour, and what the effect of toxin sacs and adrenal glands is now, or i am classing this all as a major Troll!

Corvus Corone
06-01-2014, 19:41
Pics or it didn't happen.

Sorry, but I don't buy this. Thanks for the discussion fodder though =)

Horus38
06-01-2014, 19:42
Compare the directness, lack of ambiguity, and tone of confidence that Endobai relayed his information to us. Then compare it to this guy waffling all over the place before he even started talking.

I almost posted the OP is full of it this morning, glad this thread and the rumors one seem to be thinking the same thing :rolleyes:

Balerion
06-01-2014, 20:40
I'm skeptical too, there are simply too many red flags.

Who buys a new Codex, takes a brief look, and then stores it somewhere it can't be accessed? Don't you want to look at your new $50+ toy game manual?

Who is legitimately afraid of being "sued" by posting vague descriptions of rules from a rulebook they bought under completely legal terms? Don't you feel entitled to discuss your new purchase?

Who gets a new rulebook, and then only posts rules that no one cares about, were already revealed or implied, or are easily deductible from the rules we have already heard about? Don't you want to drop bombshells about stuff people are desperately excited to hear about?

I hope you're legit, Sinsigel, if only for the sake of my faith in humanity! But if you're not looking to disseminate your information amongst the rest of us then you should probably just politely say goodbye and remove yourself from the thread, since nobody appreciates someone casually gloating about privileged information they're unwilling to share or prove.

If you do have the book, then I'm absolutely certain people would love you for sharing the following major mysteries:

- What does Synapse and Instinctive Behaviour do now?
- What non-standard deployment types exists (ie. Hive Commander outflank, Trygon tunnel, etc.)
- Were any mediocre but well-loved units improved (eg. Lictors, Deathleaper, Raveners, etc.)
- What are the effects of biomorphs (new and old; everybody wants to know about things like Adrenal Glands, but are also curious about new stuff like the supposed apex biomorphs, the returned MC tail weapons, etc.)

G8Keeper
06-01-2014, 22:45
Mostly the fact that he/she isn't here defending themselves sells it as hogwash for me.

kjolnir
06-01-2014, 22:50
Mostly the fact that he/she isn't here defending themselves sells it as hogwash for me.

Well, it could be that they are in a time zone where it's normal to be asleep right now.

Not saying anything he's said is credible, but there actually is a plausible explanation for why he wouldn't be here right now.

BramGaunt
06-01-2014, 22:56
I'm skeptical too, there are simply too many red flags.
Who buys a new Codex, takes a brief look, and then stores it somewhere it can't be accessed? Don't you want to look at your new $50+ toy game manual?
People with a job that requires attention, perhaps. People asleep. People with better things to do.
Who is legitimately afraid of being "sued" by posting vague descriptions of rules from a rulebook they bought under completely legal terms? Don't you feel entitled to discuss your new purchase?
People who don't know better. Also, since it's not on sale yet, the transaction is 'illegal', though he cannot be sued or reprimended in any way.
Who gets a new rulebook, and then only posts rules that no one cares about, were already revealed or implied, or are easily deductible from the rules we have already heard about? Don't you want to drop bombshells about stuff people are desperately excited to hear about?
People who have a different tae on 'interesting.'
I hope you're legit, Sinsigel, if only for the sake of my faith in humanity! But if you're not looking to disseminate your information amongst the rest of us then you should probably just politely say goodbye and remove yourself from the thread, since nobody appreciates someone casually gloating about privileged information they're unwilling to share or prove.

If you do have the book, then I'm absolutely certain people would love you for sharing the following major mysteries:

- What does Synapse and Instinctive Behaviour do now?
- What non-standard deployment types exists (ie. Hive Commander outflank, Trygon tunnel, etc.)
- Were any mediocre but well-loved units improved (eg. Lictors, Deathleaper, Raveners, etc.)
- What are the effects of biomorphs (new and old; everybody wants to know about things like Adrenal Glands, but are also curious about new stuff like the supposed apex biomorphs, the returned MC tail weapons, etc.)


Mostly the fact that he/she isn't here defending themselves sells it as hogwash for me.

As in my (red) additions, there are a million good reasons why people don't post. Maybe because he's opposed.

Don#t get me wrong. I'm not saying what he says is legitimate, and I'm not saying it isn't. I'm trying to spur people to think about possibilities befor calling shenanigans.

kjolnir
06-01-2014, 23:12
As in my (red) additions, there are a million good reasons why people don't post. Maybe because he's opposed.

Don#t get me wrong. I'm not saying what he says is legitimate, and I'm not saying it isn't. I'm trying to spur people to think about possibilities befor calling shenanigans.


And where I would urge caution is too quickly explaining away individual questions. It's very easy to explain away one discrepancy. It's even easy to explain away a bunch of discrepancies if you take them individually.

That's where you can get into trouble though - while the individual discrepancies in a group of them might have a perfectly reasonable explanation, typically there is no reasonable explanation for the group exists to begin with - other than that they're just not true.

When you analyze stuff like this, you first have to analyze it on the whole before you dig down to the individual questions and just ask yourself "does this make sense in the big picture?" If the answer is no, then you figure out why and pick out the stuff that doesn't make sense. When you've got a good half-dozen legitimate reasons why it doesn't make sense, that's not as easy to explain away as one or two reasons.

Sinsigel
06-01-2014, 23:27
Been a sleep for a while. Please pardon my slow response.

Reasons for not answering parts which others deem very important(adrenaline glands, instinctive behaviours etc) is because
there wasn't really much change to note, same as rumours indicated, or either because I wasn't aware adrenaline glands and shadow in the warp was that important to tyranids.
(I started playing 40k not quite long ago and play primarily against tau, eldar or CSM)
Some parts were a bit tedious to skim through.
Instinctive behaviour for instance have become more detailed, needing to roll a D6 to further figure out what specific effects it brings.
(For each Lurk, Hunt, Feed behaviour, roll a D6 : there are results for rolls of 1~3, 5, 6 respectively)

This 'clubhouse' which I keep mentioning is some 30-minutes(if taking tube/subway or whatever the english-speaking users call it) far from my home
so it will take some time for me to actually get there, check what users asked, get back home and type it down.
I also have more urgent business to do now(preparing for graduate school etc) so don't think of it as trolling please.

So I suppose things I need to check are

: Adrenalic Glands, Toxic Sacs, Shadow in the Warp, Synapse Creature, Tail morphs, Deployment special rules such as tunneling, 'mediocre' units(lictor, ravener etc)

I'll check all of them if I can get there today.

P.S. Speaking of lictors, these are what I remember so far : Deep Strike, No scattering, acting as living locator beacon.

Kegslayer
06-01-2014, 23:54
If you purchased the book why not just take it home and answer the questions after all by buying it you own it do you not?

Sinsigel
06-01-2014, 23:57
If you purchased the book why not just take it home and answer the questions after all by buying it you own it do you not?

To be more specific, me and several other fellow players gathered some money to buy the codex in order to let others read it freely at clubhouse.
So it isn't mine exclusively

vortexdr
07-01-2014, 01:05
Scything talons nerfed to hell wtf???

My Trygon and Ravaners were already too expensive points wise...Trygon more so but still...thats umm ********. Raveners the coolest models in the nid range I'll be seriously pissed if they made then even worse. Being able to be one shot by every tom dick and harry was bad enough...I cant believe thats all that talons do.

I guess they are turning us into a shoty army. Suppose it makes sense fluff wise seeing Nids always adapt but its pretty lame...Guess Orks also screwed then and melee viability is being totally abolished

stonehorse
07-01-2014, 01:11
If those rumours are true adding Scything Talons to Genestealers which would only grant +1 attack and a guaranteed AP6 is not worth it.

As many others have said, something doesn't feel right about these rumours.

If they are correct, looks like we'll have to switch to short range shooting supported by Assaults tactics.

Menthak
07-01-2014, 01:27
To be more specific, me and several other fellow players gathered some money to buy the codex in order to let others read it freely at clubhouse.
So it isn't mine exclusively

I'm not saying anything, but this sounds an awful lot like the time someone found a beta Zelda 1 cartridge, which didn't turn out to be bogus (!).


Scything talons nerfed to hell wtf???

My Trygon and Ravaners were already too expensive points wise...Trygon more so but still...thats umm ********. Raveners the coolest models in the nid range I'll be seriously pissed if they made then even worse. Being able to be one shot by every tom dick and harry was bad enough...I cant believe thats all that talons do.

I guess they are turning us into a shoty army. Suppose it makes sense fluff wise seeing Nids always adapt but its pretty lame...Guess Orks also screwed then and melee viability is being totally abolished

Alright settle down. Melee is only not viable in a tourney setting with only two bits of terrain on the pitch (And those will be Aegis lines). Try playing with 35-50% pitch terrain and then try your Ork list.

rocdocta
07-01-2014, 03:45
Read first post and call shenanigans. sounds like a bored kid on Christmas holidays to me.

ReveredChaplainDrake
07-01-2014, 04:29
Reasons for not answering parts which others deem very important(adrenaline glands, instinctive behaviours etc) is because
there wasn't really much change to note



(I started playing 40k not quite long ago and play primarily against tau, eldar or CSM)

"Objection!"
So, not only are you unfamiliar with Tyranids, neither playing as them yourself nor against them, but with 40k in general, and yet you can still say with confidence, off the top of your head, that not much changed? Care to try again?


or either because I wasn't aware adrenaline glands and shadow in the warp was that important to tyranids.
How... Shadow... not... important... (*faints*)


Instinctive behaviour for instance have become more detailed, needing to roll a D6 to further figure out what specific effects it brings.
(For each Lurk, Hunt, Feed behaviour, roll a D6 : there are results for rolls of 1~3, 5, 6 respectively)
How does this not sound like an enormous change to IB? It sounds an awful lot like 3rd edition's version of the rule. Except that 3rd edition simply had units with "Instinctive Behavior", and you rolled to determine whether you fled, lurked, or attacked on each failed IB. But units have had concrete IB for the past two editions, and it's been long-since confirmed by pictures of the codex in WD that we'll continue to have fixed IB rules again.


P.S. Speaking of lictors, these are what I remember so far : Deep Strike, No scattering, acting as living locator beacon.
So... nothing. Given your early blanket statement about how little changed, why would you specifically mention the details of a rule that, for all intents and purposes, didn't change? Why not just say that Lictors stayed the same?

Unfortunately for Tyranid players, this actually does follow the precedent set by units like O'shovah and Swooping Hawks (I think a SM captain has it too; I know that Dante has it)... except that O'shovah and Swooping Hawks both have innate deep strike via their unit type, to which they append a "no scatter" rule. Lictors, on the other hand, do not have innate Deep Strike. They have to get Deep Strike through some other rule. In fact, all of the aforementioned units who have this "Deepstrike, no scatter" combination rule are units who drop from the sky with extreme precision according to the fluff, while what Lictors do is more like uber-infiltration (i.e. Callidus Assassin, Marbo). While nobody can really make a sure call on "is the Lictor good or not", I think it's a far safer bet to make that GW would much rather give Lictors a rule at least vaguely representative of its own fluff than some mechanic already associated with an entirely different unit type and role in numerous places.

kjolnir
07-01-2014, 05:16
Been a sleep for a while. Please pardon my slow response.

Reasons for not answering parts which others deem very important(adrenaline glands, instinctive behaviours etc) is because
there wasn't really much change to note, same as rumours indicated, or either because I wasn't aware adrenaline glands and shadow in the warp was that important to tyranids.
(I started playing 40k not quite long ago and play primarily against tau, eldar or CSM)
Some parts were a bit tedious to skim through.
Instinctive behaviour for instance have become more detailed, needing to roll a D6 to further figure out what specific effects it brings.
(For each Lurk, Hunt, Feed behaviour, roll a D6 : there are results for rolls of 1~3, 5, 6 respectively)

This 'clubhouse' which I keep mentioning is some 30-minutes(if taking tube/subway or whatever the english-speaking users call it) far from my home
so it will take some time for me to actually get there, check what users asked, get back home and type it down.
I also have more urgent business to do now(preparing for graduate school etc) so don't think of it as trolling please.

So I suppose things I need to check are

: Adrenalic Glands, Toxic Sacs, Shadow in the Warp, Synapse Creature, Tail morphs, Deployment special rules such as tunneling, 'mediocre' units(lictor, ravener etc)

I'll check all of them if I can get there today.

P.S. Speaking of lictors, these are what I remember so far : Deep Strike, No scattering, acting as living locator beacon.

Uh-huh, "if" you can get there.

At this point, I'd just say do us a favor and stop stringing us along by not posting anything else. Someone else out there is going to have a legit copy of the codex in a couple of days at the latest, and they won't play the capricious games you are.

Hendarion
07-01-2014, 06:23
Scything talons? Eldar striking scorpion chainswords without strength buff :(Actually the Striking Scorpion Chainsword's ONLY effect is +1 strength. It grants no additional attacks itself or something - just the pairing with another cc-weapon does.
Edit: Ah well... you're talking about AP then I guess.

Learn2Eel
07-01-2014, 06:36
Uh-huh, "if" you can get there.

At this point, I'd just say do us a favor and stop stringing us along by not posting anything else. Someone else out there is going to have a legit copy of the codex in a couple of days at the latest, and they won't play the capricious games you are.

While I'm also starting to doubt these are real - and I actually hope they are fake as it would mean the death of dedicated assault units in our army - I will laugh pretty hard if it turns out they are legit. Quite a few people would have to make some hasty apologies lol.

Frankly, as long as most of the units are decent, and the Harpy/Crone aren't as easy to kill as the 5th Edition Harpy, I'll be happy.

Learn2Eel
07-01-2014, 07:24
"Malantai is NOT destroyed by a single zoanthrope."

What was it destroyed by, if I might ask?

G8Keeper
07-01-2014, 08:28
While I'm also starting to doubt these are real - and I actually hope they are fake as it would mean the death of dedicated assault units in our army - I will laugh pretty hard if it turns out they are legit. Quite a few people would have to make some hasty apologies lol.

Frankly, as long as most of the units are decent, and the Harpy/Crone aren't as easy to kill as the 5th Edition Harpy, I'll be happy.

Im English, i don't apologise :P! Seriously though regarding the instinctive behaviour, there is in fact a hint in the wording of white dwarf that each behaviour will have different "new instinctive behaviour tables". Now in not saying this guy is any more credible as that part could easily have came from WD but it doesn't seem to be complete crap.... That part.....anyway.

Sinsigel
07-01-2014, 10:13
Some infos again.

Synapse Creature : 12" Fearless and auto-regroup

Adrenalin Gland : Furious Charge and Fleet

Toxic Sacs : poisoned CC

Lictors : Now have infiltrate but without bonus to reserve rolls. About 20% pts drop

Deathleaper : Slight pts reduction, Changed to HQ. Has warlord traits giving additional VP when wins challenge.
No fearless but gained infiltrate. Enemies can only shoot snap shots against it and it still give penalty to enemy leadership.
No what was that and where'd it go

Tail weapons : CC weapon. Four kinds

1) S8, AP-
2) S6, AP5
3) Poisoned
4) S4 AP4 Rending

Ravener : Slightly less attack. No acute senses and no move through cover
May take expensive champion upgrade which can remove infantry model in b2b if all attacks hit.

Some of the psychics are : -D3 to WS and BS ; Allows friendly unit to run and shoot

Rending Claws have AP value of bolter. And No ymgarls

Hive tyrant can still give outflank to one troop unit by purchasing extra upgrade. Can only use tyranid psychics. So no biomancy

Flesh hook without rending

No 2+ armour for carnifexes. Although tyrants, tervigon and trygon can take it via bio-artifacts.(See below)

There are few bio-artifacts compared to other codices.
Some of them are : Bonesword with strength buff ; Ymgarl transformation(Which can increase armour save slightly)

Trygon of both kind are bit cheaper at the cost of slightly less attack. The tunnel rule remains largely unchanged

Instictive behaviours are fixed per unit just like former codex.
However, there are three specific results per behaviour depending on dice.

Lurk : Fall Back / Can shoot only when hidden / Can shot only when hidden + Stealth

Hunt : Go to Ground / Shoot closest unit / Shoot closest enemy unit + Preferred Enemy

Feed : Inflicting hits on themselves / Assault closest enemy units / Assualt closest enemy unit + Rage

Sinsigel
07-01-2014, 10:19
Now, I don't mind many people being sceptical about my posts. I would've been same if I were them.
The level of sarcasm and mockery however(e.g. : 4chan trolls, attention seeking brat etc) seemed unnecessarily aggressive.
So I guess I should show some attempt to prove that I'm not a boy who cried wolf.
Whether you regard the picture below as genuine or outright fake is up to your own.
Hope pictures of codex cover isn't infringing copyrights.

http://i1171.photobucket.com/albums/r547/Sinsigel/20140107_172316_zpsb75915bc.jpg

http://i1171.photobucket.com/albums/r547/Sinsigel/20140107_172217_zpse03420f4.jpg

http://i1171.photobucket.com/albums/r547/Sinsigel/20140107_172102_zps204415c8.jpg

G8Keeper
07-01-2014, 10:24
Hmm fair one there i think. Looks like i did good not pre-ordering anything but the codex :)

Learn2Eel
07-01-2014, 10:32
Well, what do you know. Methinks kjolnir and quite a few others are going to have to do some apologizing after all!

Adrenal Glands giving Fleet is ace, though obviously it won't do anything for Hormagaunts.
Lictors sound like....eh. About 50 points but lost their reserve bonus? Big meh.
Deathleaper sounds like he could be ok actually, forcing enemies to snap shot at him is hilarious. Given his current stats he should make a pretty decent character assassin.

Do the tail weapons add just one extra attack with that profile? They sound neat but nothing special.

Raveners not having Acute Senses is fine, they are fast enough as it is. Being dropped to 3 attacks base though is sad. Just an FYI, they didn't actually lose Move Through Cover as they are Beasts and Beasts come stock with it.
So the Red Terror IS in the book in some fashion. That's pretty awesome actually!
So Paroxysm is now -D3 to WS and BS instead of just making them WS and BS 1. Eh. Onslaught is the same, no surprises.
Interesting on Rending Claws, won't make a massive difference but having a flat AP value will help Genestealers/Raveners/etc to chew through horde units.

That sucks with the Hive Tyrant. No more BRB psychic powers? Argh. And the Tyranid discipline isn't that great by the sounds of it, sounds ok but not really inspiring. Eh. Hope for Catalyst I guess. Still having Hive Commander is sweet.

Not surprised by the lack of 2+ armour for Carnifexes, but I am surprised that it is available to Trygons and Tervigons. Tervigons I get as they are a HQ choice, but why Trygons? Is it specifically Trygon Primes?
No Rending on Flesh Hooks.....ok. Lictors are even worse than they were. Great.
Bonesword with a Strength buff, so Instant Death on 6s with +1 Strength? Sounds neat, though I can't see the Strength buff being that important when we have Toxin Sacs and cause Instant Death on 6s anyway.
Ymgarl Transformation, huh, neat. +1 to armour, so 2+ armour for a big gribbly or a Tyranid Prime. That's nice. But wait, does that mean Armoured Shell is gone for Hive Tyrants?

Trygons.....oh man. Mawlocs get a severe buff, but Trygons get a severe nerf. Slightly less attack probably means they have 6 base because of the two sets of Scything Talons. But....no more re-rolls to hit in combat, and only a 10 point drop by the sounds of it. *sigh* Welp, nice to see they actually compared its abilities to its cost first /sarcasm

Instinctive Behaviour tables aren't bad, but the risk of those bottom effects will put more emphasis on Synapse creatures.

Fear Ghoul
07-01-2014, 10:36
Uh-huh, "if" you can get there.

At this point, I'd just say do us a favor and stop stringing us along by not posting anything else. Someone else out there is going to have a legit copy of the codex in a couple of days at the latest, and they won't play the capricious games you are.

There is a difference between healthy scepticism and downright hostility. Which one do you think applies to you? Part of me hopes that this information is correct, just so that maybe you learn a lesson in manners.

Learn2Eel
07-01-2014, 10:42
Sounds like we can still make competitive builds but.....the core issues everyone had with the codex weren't fixed at all. Only a few units appear to have gotten worse (Trygons, Lictors) but most appear to have improved. I can't help but feel underwhelmed though. Our only really competitive Troops are still Tervigons and Termagants. Hormagaunts got a buff, but not a big enough one to justify them over Termagants. Warriors and Genestealers stayed the same despite being uncompetitive and unused, what the GW designers were smoking with these is beyond my understanding. Rippers lost Mindless but went up in points by a decent chunk, so basically they got even worse than they were and are a complete joke next to Scarab Swarms and Nurglings. Our Troops section is still completely busted and this means our competitive core will remain Tervigons and Termagants. Gee, the mono build still reigns supreme. Thanks GW for fixing the Tyranid codex's biggest issue.

On to internal balance, the other major issue with the 5E codex. Why would you ever take Pyrovores/Venomthropes/etc over Zoanthropes and Hive Guard in 5E? Now, it appears to be this; why would you ever take Trygons over Mawlocs? Pyrovores barely got better, Lictors arguably got worse, Genestealers arguably got worse because the Broodlord no longer has the challenge-king psychic power, etc. Raveners look to be nerfed if they didn't go down in points, especially with the scything talon change.

Don't mistake me though, I'm only pointing out the bad stuff now. In reality, most of the changes are really good. Massive points drops to a lot of units, Termagants getting even better, Tervigons getting a needed points increase and change to unlocking, Mawlocs becoming really strong, etc. I'm happy about a lot of stuff. We are going to have some really competitive builds. Mawlocs sound like they could be over-powered, actually. Flyrants with double brainleech devourers dropping 55 points with no changes other than losing BRB powers is flat out ridiculous. Hive Guard apparently got even better. Other interesting stuff.

Still....eh. Maybe we're missing something.

Hey Sinsigel, this might be a risky question to ask, but can you confirm if the Haruspex is cheaper or more expensive points wise than the Exocrine in the White Dwarf Battle Report? I think this should be safe to answer, just say either "more" or "less" and I think that should be ok with the mods?
Thanks a huge bunch for the info by the way mate!

budman
07-01-2014, 10:46
Thanks Sinsigel for this, don't worry about the name calling it that there have been a bucnh of hoaxes in the last few weeks.

Looks Like quite a mixed bag of stuff...

RedemptionNL
07-01-2014, 10:47
Well, the pictures certainly seem legit. Everything said so far sadly sounds like the new codex is not much better than the current one in terms of model usefulness and internal balance.

Couple of questions from me then, if you would indulge:
- Does the Hive Crone or Harpy have an improved armour save and/or toughness over the 5th edition Harpy?
- Do the Harpy and/or Crone have any increased speed and/or a defence against Grounding?
- Does the Haruspex have any sort of increased movement?
- Range of Exocrine really 24"?
- Do Hive Tyrants/Primes have access to invulnerable saves (via Bio-artifact perhaps)?

budman
07-01-2014, 10:50
Flyrants with double brainleech devourers dropping 55 points with no changes other than losing BRB powers is flat out ridiculous!

BRB powers was part of the joy of them as an unit...
get a Flyrant and a litte unit of h-gaunts free :-)

kaempes
07-01-2014, 10:53
Warlordtraits?
Profile of devourers?
Is the Doom of Malantai in the Codex?
Infos about Old one eye?

KaldorSwarmlord
07-01-2014, 10:55
Hello Sinsigel,
thank you very much for the great information.
Can you go over your previously posted information and check if everything you have written there is correct, because you mentioned you wrote these out of your memory?
Also can you be more "specific" about the slight changes of the units you mentioned?
What does the hive guard's new gun do?

Again, thank you very much!

budman
07-01-2014, 11:07
Warlordtraits is good question
devourers from prior posts seams unchanged

Balerion
07-01-2014, 11:09
Thanks for coming through, Sinsigel. Those pictures are convincing.

The rules info is super-depressing, though! It boggles the mind that so many things would become worse (or laterally mediocre) compared to their current incarnations. It looks like almost everything came down in points, so you'll be able to pack more tools into an army, but it's unfortunate that so many of those tools seem to have remained dulled.

Some more specific questions, if you feel like looking stuff up:

-- do Tyranids have a unique Force Org chart, or special rules for allying with themselves? Do any units unlock Force Org changes?

-- can you see a rule allowing Tyranids to combine multiple CCWs in combat?

-- do units of multiple Lictors, Venomthropes, etc. operate as independent models, or as a normal unit that has to keep coherency and everything else?

-- what are the stats/effects of the new Hive Guard gun (and did the Impaler Cannon stay the same)?

-- which units (if any) have access to the rulebook psychic powers? Which units are locked into the Tyranid powers? Are there units that come with a specific set of powers (ie Zoanthropes)?

-- what are the stats and range of the Crone's mouth weapon?

-- does anything have Skyfire as an option?

-- what's the deal with the Haruspex? What unit type is it? Does it have any movement bonus? What does its weapons/biomorphs do?

-- any changes to Gargoyles? Biovores?

Cheers, we all appreciate the information.

Spiney Norman
07-01-2014, 11:15
I feel like I've been under a rock for the last little while, whose name is actually on the Tyranid book?

RedemptionNL
07-01-2014, 11:18
The book is attributed to the 'GW Design Team' instead of a single author. Although the interview in the back of the January White Dwarf mentions Cruddance as the codex author, which would explain why that most of the codex's issues remain unfixed.

Corvus Corone
07-01-2014, 11:18
Yea, the pics seem good.

The rules seem really, really lame. Did they learn nothing from Cruddace?

Sigh. Thanks for fielding Qs dude. I just wish you had better news.

Spiney Norman
07-01-2014, 11:22
The book is attributed to the 'GW Design Team' instead of a single author. Although the interview in the back of the January White Dwarf mentions Cruddance as the codex author, which would explain why that most of the codex's issues remain unfixed.

I guess that is an attempt to prevent the 'author hate' that pervades so many Internet forums, if Cruddace is the main author things don't look good, I don't recall him ever doing a particularly good job on any 40k project, and most of his fantasy books are equally as shaky.

innerwolf
07-01-2014, 11:25
I'm quite glad those rumours are shaping to be real and those users who shot the messenger with extreme prejudice have to swallow their words and apologize (or at least they should).

Why has Warseer turned into such a cynical community?

stonehorse
07-01-2014, 11:41
Ok, that looks like the Codex, however I do hope that your information is incorrect. As a lot of it seems like they have made Tyranids worse, which is hard to imagine.

Sitael
07-01-2014, 11:47
Ok, that looks like the Codex, however I do hope that your information is incorrect. As a lot of it seems like they have made Tyranids worse, which is hard to imagine.

Indeed, it looks to me that the description of ST and CClaws might not be complete. I mean, what the point of two sets of ST on the Trygon? and CClaws on everything else than Tyrant Guards? I don't understand this changes.
If it's true, it's not for balance reasons or anything. It's just retarded. Just my opinion here.

My guess if it's true, is that we will see some Tyranids flying circus, with two tyrants with BLdev, 3 crones if they are so good as it's rumoured, etc... (and I'm not sure for the Tyrant if they lose their psychic abilities from the BRB...)
Or Tervigon spam again... only tervigons and termagants everywhere, with a crone or 2 for AA purpose?

I start to be really afraid of this book, I hope it's because we don't have the full picture yet

G8Keeper
07-01-2014, 11:47
Its not just warseer, its the world we live in

totgeboren
07-01-2014, 12:06
It seems like quite a few nerfs, but some really significant points drops to go along with them. Nids are supposed to be hoardy, so I understand that some nerfs were needed to enable big points drops.
Kinda like what happened to daemons, except not as extreme.

I hope they don't have access to biomancy anymore. Too many games have been decided before the game starts by the Flyrants rolls on the biomancy table. Though hopefully the Nid psychics are fun and useful enough to compensate.

Azulthar
07-01-2014, 12:16
Ok, that looks like the Codex, however I do hope that your information is incorrect. As a lot of it seems like they have made Tyranids worse, which is hard to imagine.
While Tyranids may have become a bit weaker in the assault/psychic department, remember that their shooting is now both stronger and cheaper.

Not exactly what many of us want from a Tyranid army, but from a competitive viewpoint I do think the Swarm adapted appropriately to 6th edition :p

stonehorse
07-01-2014, 12:28
Just can't get over the how much it is to equip Genestealers with Scything Talons... which have a worse AP than the Rending Claws that they come with as standard, all for 1 extra attack. Either way, not long till we all have access to the Codex, so we'll be able to see for ourselves.

Avian
07-01-2014, 12:35
I'm quite glad those rumours are shaping to be real and those users who shot the messenger with extreme prejudice have to swallow their words and apologize (or at least they should).

Why has Warseer turned into such a cynical community?
This how it usually goes:
- Far out from the release, nothing is really known and the people who make up rumours have free reign (BoLS, Stickmonkey, most people who post stuff to Faeit, etc). People who don't check the past accuracy of these people will quite often believe them.
- A month or two in advance, actual leaks happen frequently from brand new sources who haven't posted any rumours previously
- Invariably, most of the older "rumours" are shown to be fabrication.
- Rumour inventors either go silent or on the defensive ("I get stuff far in advance*, and naturally things change during play testing!")
- The people who believed them get upset and take them out on the new sources who are posting genuinely true stuff.



Here is the proper way to treat rumours:
1) Check if the poster has posted any rumours previously. You can do so here: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/448304.page
2) If they don't have a record, give them the benefit of a doubt.
3) If they are mostly posting stuff that turned out to be TRUE, you believe them.
4) If they are mostly posting stuff that turned out to be FALSE, you disbelieve them.
5) If it's about half and half, give them the benefit of a doubt.

Shame on you if you fool me once, shame on me if you fool me 266 times, as the saying goes. Don't go with gut feelings and don't trust people just because they present themselves as nice people.



* posted three weeks ago

Azulthar
07-01-2014, 12:55
Just can't get over the how much it is to equip Genestealers with Scything Talons... which have a worse AP than the Rending Claws that they come with as standard, all for 1 extra attack. Either way, not long till we all have access to the Codex, so we'll be able to see for ourselves.
They pay twice what a Chaos Marine pays, but you can argue it's also twice as useful for them (for one it's an extra rending attack made at a higher WS/I).

Not saying Genestealers aren't weak (they certainly are!), but I can see why GW would (over)price the extra attack as they did.

Darnok
07-01-2014, 13:03
As always, Avian speaks words of wisdom. Also:


Shame on you if you fool me once, shame on me if you fool me 266 times, as the saying goes.

:D:yes:

stonehorse
07-01-2014, 13:19
They pay twice what a Chaos Marine pays, but you can argue it's also twice as useful for them (for one it's an extra rending attack made at a higher WS/I).

Not saying Genestealers aren't weak (they certainly are!), but I can see why GW would (over)price the extra attack as they did.

Again, we don't know if it has Rending, remember just because something has the name of a special rule in it, doesn't mean it has the special rule. This is GW here, remember their FAQ on Tzeentch Warp Fire for Warhammer, it isn't a fire attack. GW have been known on many times to drop the ball.

I would have thought that GW would have used this chance to make Genestealers good in combat, not to the same level that they were back in 2nd edition, as that was just silly. If I recall correctly they were strength 6.

I'm still not 100% convinced that the rumours we are hearing are correct, yes they do have the Codex, that much is true. But these changes just seem like too many steps backwards. Time will tell, not long till we've all got our own Codex to flick through.

Archibald_TK
07-01-2014, 13:33
Do I understand it right, that Hormogaunts, Carnifexes, Trygons, Haruspexes, Mawlocs and Raveners can now eat each others/themselves when they are out of synapse?

Avian
07-01-2014, 13:51
Let's wait and see which units get which behaviour, what the odds are for each result and just what the effects are if you roll them. But Hormagaunts CAN clearly eat each other to some degree under some circumstances.

kjolnir
07-01-2014, 13:51
Well, what do you know. Methinks kjolnir and quite a few others are going to have to do some apologizing after all!

Apologize for what? We've had literally five months of lies with this codex, and Sinisgel took 24 hours to give us a reason to believe him. I'm not sorry at all for not believing him.

Just because I didn't instantly fawn over a person on the internet who claimed, absent any proof whatsoever, that they had a codex, doesn't mean I owe anyone an apology.

And from what he is saying, this codex sounds really, really bad. I genuinely hope I'm wrong.

Learn2Eel
07-01-2014, 13:54
Apologize for what? We've had literally five months of lies with this codex, and Sinisgel took 24 hours to give us a reason to believe him. I'm not sorry at all for not believing him.

Just because I didn't instantly fawn over a person on the internet who claimed, absent any proof whatsoever, that they had a codex, doesn't mean I owe anyone an apology.

And from what he is saying, this codex sounds really, really bad. I genuinely hope I'm wrong.

Uh huh, because the personal attacks were really warranted :rolleyes:

Spiney Norman
07-01-2014, 13:59
Uh huh, because the personal attacks were really warranted :rolleyes:

Nope, but then personal attacks are never warranted whether he had been making the whole thing up or not. If you can't just laugh and walk away from any thread you are taking it too seriously.

kjolnir
07-01-2014, 14:00
Do I understand it right, that Hormogaunts, Carnifexes, Trygons, Haruspexes, Mawlocs and Raveners can now eat each others/themselves when they are out of synapse?

Yeah, the IB table is hugely damaging to us now.

I really hope Sinisgel is just making this stuff up, even though it looks like he's not. This codex looks horrible so far.

kjolnir
07-01-2014, 14:01
Uh huh, because the personal attacks were really warranted :rolleyes:

I just asked him to stop posting if he couldn't prove what he was saying. While I might not have been "nice" about it, my "nice" wore off after the second batch of lies from 4chan. I don't have your willingness to give people the benefit of the doubt when I've been burned by it already.

Archibald_TK
07-01-2014, 14:02
Let's wait and see which units get which behaviour, what the odds are for each result and just what the effects are if you roll them. But Hormagaunts CAN clearly eat each other to some degree under some circumstances.
Yeah, I hope there may have been some misinterpretations of the IB tables, or it will be interesting to see which unit gets the Hunt IB. Can you imagine an Exocrine out of synapse deciding that it's a good idea to shoot you own Tervigon? Or your Termagants unleashing hell in the back of your own Genestealers pack?

Learn2Eel
07-01-2014, 14:04
I just asked him to stop posting if he couldn't prove what he was saying. While I might not have been "nice" about it, my "nice" wore off after the second batch of lies from 4chan. I don't have your willingness to give people the benefit of the doubt when I've been burned by it already.

Fair enough.

Hal'jin
07-01-2014, 14:07
It never ceases to amaze my how seriously people treat rumors about little plastic toys. "lies" "burned", it sounds like bad stock investment advice, not saying that some critter may or may not have 2 points price decrease...

Sinsigel
07-01-2014, 14:08
I'm afraid I might not be able to answer all the questions posted after I uploaded photos.
As mentioned several times, the book is currently not in my hands and it is very likely I won't be able to visit the place again to skim through codex.(Might be my last post concerning codex)
By the time I visit there again it would be already weekend when the codex is officially released.

I'll just clarify some of the infos I've posted.
I'm sure Behaviour(Hunt) table makes units to shoot closest hostile units, not friendly ones.
Rending claw isn't nerfed in anyway compared to previous version. Just additional AP.

Archibald_TK
07-01-2014, 14:13
I'll just clarify some of the infos I've posted.
I'm sure Behaviour(Hunt) table makes units to shoot closest hostile units, not friendly ones.
Rending claw isn't nerfed in anyway compared to previous version. Just additional AP.
Thank you, this is a relief.

Tzeentch2003
07-01-2014, 14:15
Do you remember any more details about the tail biomorphs? All MCs have Smash, which means their cc attacks are always AP2. Just trying to figure out why there are AP values on the tail biomorphs. Are they available to more than just the MCs?


It never ceases to amaze my how seriously people treat rumors about little plastic toys. "lies" "burned", it sounds like bad stock investment advice, not saying that some critter may or may not have 2 points price decrease...

This is a good point, although to be fair my Tyranid collection is probably worth more than my car at this point. ;)

Sitael
07-01-2014, 14:22
I'm afraid I might not be able to answer all the questions posted after I uploaded photos.
As mentioned several times, the book is currently not in my hands and it is very likely I won't be able to visit the place again to skim through codex.(Might be my last post concerning codex)
By the time I visit there again it would be already weekend when the codex is officially released.

I'll just clarify some of the infos I've posted.
I'm sure Behaviour(Hunt) table makes units to shoot closest hostile units, not friendly ones.
Rending claw isn't nerfed in anyway compared to previous version. Just additional AP.

Thank you!

Is it 100% sure what you said about Scy Tal and CClaws? because it would be a so bad desing of rules that it seems impossible! ^^ They really lose everything that made it ok?

And about zoanthropes, do they have acces at wargear/upgrades and can improve warp blast?

Thank you anyway for the infos!

vortexdr
07-01-2014, 14:41
Hmmm so the Special biomorths are in? Is there somethign is those biomorphs that gives EW as some rumors were saying? (the one giving a 2+ save was mentioned as being one of the "Apex Biomorphs"

I assume they are the one per army kind like Tau Signature Systems right?

Also wtf is it with a physic power that lets us run and shoot would of expected run and assault if anything.

kjolnir
07-01-2014, 14:42
It never ceases to amaze my how seriously people treat rumors about little plastic toys. "lies" "burned", it sounds like bad stock investment advice, not saying that some critter may or may not have 2 points price decrease...

I just don't appreciate being lied to, directly or indirectly, regardless of the reason.

There are a lot of us very passionate about this release because we love the army very much while simultaneously enduring a very, very bad codex.

Also, it's got very little to do with marginal point cost changes, and many of these lies went straight to the heart of what most Nid players saw bad about the codex.

This is a hobby that for many of us takes up a lot of our spare time, many of us have invested large amounts of time and money in modeling, converting, painting, traveling, playing in tournaments, etc, and on some level it hurts when your enjoyment of that hobby with the army that is your favorite is affected negatively by something out of your control like GW's willingness to wring bad codexes.

So, maybe you're not into as much as we are, but that doesn't make you right and us wrong.

Raverrn
07-01-2014, 14:53
You have to wonder if these guys would be as angry if the rumors were great.

Thanks for the previews!

wyvirn
07-01-2014, 15:06
You have to wonder if these guys would be as angry if the rumors were great.

Thanks for the previews!

I know I wouldn't be! :D

MajorWesJanson
07-01-2014, 15:17
Uh-huh, "if" you can get there.

At this point, I'd just say do us a favor and stop stringing us along by not posting anything else. Someone else out there is going to have a legit copy of the codex in a couple of days at the latest, and they won't play the capricious games you are.

This is why we can't have nice things.

Calcabrina
07-01-2014, 15:21
If people are going to take as default an "everything is a lie, YOU are a liar if you don't say exactly what I want you to say!" stance, they should probably not be reading rumors in the first place. It just doesn't add up, unless there's some kind of ulterior motive.

Maybe they're some kind of weird rules mechanics masochists? Or they have no other outlet for their anger and just jump into rumor threads to vent it at people who are trying to be helpful. I wonder if these are the same kind of people that throw dice when they roll ones, or get really nasty with personal insults against their opponent's integrity when they make bad strategic choices?

kjolnir
07-01-2014, 15:25
If people are going to take as default an "everything is a lie, YOU are a liar if you don't say exactly what I want you to say!" stance, they should probably not be reading rumors in the first place.

Well on the internet, in general it's best to wait for proof before you go jumping in head first. That's what I do, anyway.


It just doesn't add up, unless there's some kind of ulterior motive.

So then what you're saying is that it COULD add up. That's exactly what I and others have been saying.

Tzeentch2003
07-01-2014, 15:30
As the saying goes "Trust, but verify." And after wading through literally months of made-up rumors, the Tyranid community has basically just skipped straight to "Verify".

Buddha777
07-01-2014, 16:00
Now, I don't mind many people being sceptical about my posts. I would've been same if I were them.
The level of sarcasm and mockery however(e.g. : 4chan trolls, attention seeking brat etc) seemed unnecessarily aggressive.
So I guess I should show some attempt to prove that I'm not a boy who cried wolf.
Whether you regard the picture below as genuine or outright fake is up to your own.
Hope pictures of codex cover isn't infringing copyrights.

http://i1171.photobucket.com/albums/r547/Sinsigel/20140107_172316_zpsb75915bc.jpg

http://i1171.photobucket.com/albums/r547/Sinsigel/20140107_172217_zpse03420f4.jpg

http://i1171.photobucket.com/albums/r547/Sinsigel/20140107_172102_zps204415c8.jpg

Despite everything else posted here I do want to say thank you for taking the time to release the information to us hungry Tyranid players.

My question is on the venomthrope and what its abilities are now, and biomorphs in general. There was a rumor that all the old biomorphs (thornback, etc.) are back in the dex. Any thumbs or down would be very appreciated. Again, thanks.

ReveredChaplainDrake
07-01-2014, 16:03
Welp, that ought to show me for being a Tyranid player and hoping for a decent codex at the same time. If it makes you (the OP) feel any better, feel free to channel all that negativity directly to GW, where it belongs.

Synapse Creature : 12" Fearless and auto-regroup

Adrenalin Gland : Furious Charge and Fleet

Toxic Sacs : poisoned CC
All pretty much the same. Conferring Fleet is pretty consistent with why Warriors get Adrenals for so much more than everybody else. Looks like my "Adrenal Glands" will remain "Toxin Sacs" yet again. And Adrenal Glands on Hormagaunts remain as worthless as the Hormagaunts themselves.

The big winners here are Tervigons. I hope it can still confer its biomorphs to Termagants. Giving itself and all nearby Termagants fleet makes decoy charges a lot more risky for the opponent, and it can ensure a much further run. But that would assume that GW removed the "only in the assault phase" conferring caveat, which I doubt at this rate. That would take a brain.


Lictors : Now have infiltrate but without bonus to reserve rolls. About 20% pts drop
An Infiltrating Lictor running at 50-odd ppm (65 just doesn't divide very cleanly) sounds pretty cool actually, especially if it retains its locator beacon. If a Lictor gets in melee, a Mawloc placed on top of the Lictor (and the ensuing melee) could prove devastating. Sort of a Tyranid version of the GK Holocaust power. I've always wondered why Lictors lost Infiltrate, but they've always had something more interesting to make up for it. And while they used to have one of the most impressive Stealth mechanics in the game, that's now down to Camo Cloaks. (Meanwhile, Stealth Suits get a stackable 4++ standing in the open at point blank, in addition to their handheld assault Heavy Bolter, Jet Pack, Markerlight support, access to 18" range meltaguns, 3+ armor, and yet they're considered one of the worst units in a codex that isn't arbitrarily forbidden from using universal rules in the universal rulebook. ...Just saying.) Yeah, I'm sure they'll give Exocrines and / or Haruspexes a run for their money in the Elites section.


Deathleaper : Slight pts reduction, Changed to HQ. Has warlord traits giving additional VP when wins challenge.
No fearless but gained infiltrate. Enemies can only shoot snap shots against it and it still give penalty to enemy leadership.
No what was that and where'd it go
Unlike its less special snowflake brethren, the Deathleaper seems to have come out better in every way. Can only be Snap-Shot? Did that just make Deathleaper immune to template weapons? And it comes standard with the "win the game" warlord trait, my favorite WL trait of all? Alas, with the mandated Double Flyrant, I shall not have the space for such a creature, but it could fulfill a similar role to the Parasite from last codex, in terms of its melee output in small games. And I'd only have to buy one Lictor.

Oh wait, no Fearless. ...Wait, what?! No Fearless... on a Tyranid HQ, and he also takes up a slot that would've almost assuredly been used to purchase a Synapse Creature. Please, tell me this thing isn't bound by Instinctive Behavior...


Tail weapons : CC weapon. Four kinds

1) S8, AP-
2) S6, AP5
3) Poisoned
4) S4 AP4 Rending
I wonder if this means Trygons will have different tail options to make up for the perpetual re-rolls it used to have. Or if tail attacks gain the benefits of Smash (specifically AP2). Though it does figure. The one area where it looks like Tyranids are seeing some actual change in their codex, and they've learned the ability to... twerk people to death.


Ravener : Slightly less attack. No acute senses and no move through cover
May take expensive champion upgrade which can remove infantry model in b2b if all attacks hit.
The first part of that was just basic stuff to accommodate what happened to Beasts, who don't need MTC because they straight-up ignore it, and the expected Attack drop given that Scything Talons are back to conferring extra attacks. And honestly, I never even knew that Raveners had Acute Senses. I've never seen it come up. But the "Ravener champion" (welcome back, Red Terror) sounds stupid. Not bad necessarily... just stupid. Both that Tyranids got a sergeant upgrade, and that Tyranids now essentially have a Jaws of the World Wolf of their own. No, GW! (*swats with newspaper*) Bad! Auto-remove-model mechanics that ignore all defensive abilities is bad design, no matter who has access to it! Especially when that model can declare challenges!

At least Mindshackes can't make the Red Terror somehow swallow itself. It is a Beast, after all.


Some of the psychics are : -D3 to WS and BS ; Allows friendly unit to run and shoot
Oh goodie. And here I thought Paroxysm was gonna' be stupid. :rolleyes: That was the one good power Tyranids had (potentially two, along with the Leech Essence which is now straight-up gone), and it got nerfed. Parox had better have some awesome range. If I have to see a silver lining, and GW had better not make me look like a fool here, it's that Parox seems like a malediction now, rather than a "ranged weapon". And here I thought Flyrants were going to have some use beyond hefting more dakka than a Loota Mob. In other news, it's nice to see that Onslaught is absolutely precisely as worthless as it used to be, considering all Eldar basically do the same thing for free and without restriction, and have, y'know, decent guns. At least Catalyst and Psychic Scream got better. And Warp Blast is on the table.


Rending Claws have AP value of bolter. And No ymgarls
I don't suppose you meant Calgar's Bolter? No? Well I would at least assume that they're still Rending... right? They're Rending Claws.


Hive tyrant can still give outflank to one troop unit by purchasing extra upgrade. Can only use tyranid psychics. So no biomancy
Actually, what stings me more is that a ML2 Tyrant could've been pretty sweet on the Telepathy front. I was looking forward to Invisible Flyrants. There were some local Tau who really needed to be shut up. ...But who am I kidding? Taking Biomancy pretty much stripped our only source of Eternal Warrior. And, as we've already established, Tyranid psychic powers are utter crap, that ML2 (and 3 on SL) isn't going anywhere. In fact, the one bug who probably could pull these powers off, the Tervigon, is ML1.

So, how about we append that running list of what everybody else gets that Tyranids arbitrarily don't get:
-vehicles (particularly non-organic flyers and transports)
-allies
-turrets
-rulebook psychic powers
Is there a reason for Tyranid players to even own the core rules anymore?


Flesh hook without rending
Honestly, I'd be surprised if Flesh Hooks kept any form of shooting ability at all, given their return to what I hope is asault grenades. Well, this was hardly going to change anything. Warriors were gonna' be terrible anyway, and Lictors, while kinda' buffed by not being forced into Reserves, are competing in the Exocrine / Hive Guard marketplace. And nobody else even has Flesh Hooks.


No 2+ armour for carnifexes. Although tyrants, tervigon and trygon can take it via bio-artifacts.(See below)
Trygons can take artifacts? ...You don't mean Trygon Primes, do you? Still, one 2+ save is better than nothing. And I'm betting that my dual Flyrants won't have access to it anyway.


There are few bio-artifacts compared to other codices.
Some of them are : Bonesword with strength buff ; Ymgarl transformation(Which can increase armour save slightly)
Few bio-artifacts? Compared to other codecies? (*headdesk*) Other codecies would be lucky to have more than five.


Trygon of both kind are bit cheaper at the cost of slightly less attack. The tunnel rule remains largely unchanged
The one thing Tyranids needed changed on the Trygon, one thing, "make the tunnel not worthless", and an entire team of designers couldn't figure it out? This is just not the edition for bad guy armies with alt deployment options.


Instictive behaviours are fixed per unit just like former codex.
However, there are three specific results per behaviour depending on dice.

Lurk : Fall Back / Can shoot only when hidden / Can shot only when hidden + Stealth

Hunt : Go to Ground / Shoot closest unit / Shoot closest enemy unit + Preferred Enemy

Feed : Inflicting hits on themselves / Assault closest enemy units / Assualt closest enemy unit + Rage
Considering this is where I raised my greatest skepticism of your previous leaks on IB, this just sounds needlessly complicated. And not all entirely nerfs, either. I get that it's a summary, but are these the only restrictions? Can IB units now move as normal (unless falling back or GTG, of course), completely under player control?

Yahtzee from Zero Punctuation once made a comment, either about the Wii or Halo, which I feel is oddly appropriate in this context, and it went something like this: "I'd like to see [Tyranids] evolve. And before you say anything about the [new codex], evolve in ways that aren't stupid." Another from ItsJustSomeRandomGuy: "It's amazing how well people react when the bar is set to 'doesn't suck as much as the last one'." Because if this is GW's idea of what Tyranids need, yet more exclusion from the core rules that everybody else can enjoy, fewer options, and a choice between hard nerfs bought with insufficient point decreases and utter stagnation in yet another out-of-the-gate-mono-build codex, I might finally have the impetus I need to walk away from this hobby completely. With my bank account fully intact.

Tetrisphreak
07-01-2014, 16:04
To Sinstrel:

Thanks for the info you've posted about the book. One thing that I wonder about that nobody's mentioned yet - does the Tyranid book have a different FOC than other army's? Extra Fast, Elite, Heavy slots? The ability to Ally with itself? Or are we stuck with No allies and the same 3 slots we've always had? Thanks!

G8Keeper
07-01-2014, 16:26
I think we can draw a line under this. Alot of us didn't buy it, some said as such including me. We were proved wrong sadly. Move on.

Goosey_J
07-01-2014, 17:22
Honestly I'd wait before losing your knickers over this. You have no information at all unless you have the full picture. Lets not forget what those ******** at 40k radio did with the SM CTs and other info before they actually dropped the bomb and gave us the real information. There was a lesson to be learned from all that.

Scammel
07-01-2014, 17:28
Honestly I'd wait before losing your knickers over this. You have no information at all unless you have the full picture. Lets not forget what those ******** at 40k radio did with the SM CTs and other info before they actually dropped the bomb and gave us the real information. There was a lesson to be learned from all that.

What, that we should be grateful on one of the very few occasions when we get reliable and accurate rules info well in advance?

I don't think any assessment of the new rules is going to hold much water until a good three months after the book has hit the table. The community has recently demonstrated an unprecedented lack of ability in telling whether certain units are any good or not. Heldrakes, Screamerstars, Wave Serpents, Knights etc. all took a while to come to the fore.

Ssilmath
07-01-2014, 17:37
On topic: So have we started the whole "Tyranids are crap" stuff yet? Because if not, I'd like to start it off by saying that Tyranids will almost surely suck and be nerfed out of competitiveness and out of the minds of the entire human race. I'm someone who plays against Tyranids regularly, so I don't even need to look at the newest codex to know this.

Oh yes, the esteemed RCD has already deemed the codex a failure with no reservations.

Azulthar
07-01-2014, 17:48
Oh yes, the esteemed RCD has already deemed the codex a failure with no reservations.
I consider it a 'failure' as well, even though it could prove to be quite competitive.
I wanted a Tyranid army that was a swarm of psychic-assault beasts. Instead we're getting shooty Nidzilla.

The only thing we don't know yet, is how competitive this shooty Nidzilla codex is going to be.

Goosey_J
07-01-2014, 17:59
What, that we should be grateful on one of the very few occasions when we get reliable and accurate rules info well in advance?

I was talking specifically about when the 40k Radio guys told everyone that the CTs were a certain way, then the community getting up in arms about how broken X was and how much Y sucked, then it transpiring that the 40k Radio guys had deliberately fed everyone bogus info "for the lols" before coming clean with the actual Chapter Tactics a week or 2 before the release. So not exactly reliable.

But that's not my point. People should not jump to conclusions until they have the codex in front of them and therefore the full picture. Then we can decide if the sky is falling or not.

de Selby
07-01-2014, 18:23
Are shrikes (flying warriors) still in the codex or not?

I can cope with tyranids being a bit rubbish, it's kind of their niche at this point. I'd just like to know if there are going to be any more models I can't use in games.

Raverrn
07-01-2014, 18:29
I'd like to point out as well that Hive Tyrants being limited to Tyranid powers doesn't mean the whole book is. I could see (just as an example) zoanthropes with TK, broodlords with telepathy and tervigons with biomancy.

still-young
07-01-2014, 18:30
C'mon guys...at least our models are cool? I'm just starting nids haha, maybe picked a bad time, but ah well. I'll find something that works hopefully!

Raverrn
07-01-2014, 18:37
C'mon guys...at least our models are cool? I'm just starting nids haha, maybe picked a bad time, but ah well. I'll find something that works hopefully!

I wouldn't worry just yet. Just look at the reactions to the Broadside S8 'nerf' and the general disparaging of the Wraithknight - time will tell, but this stuff is quite literally worse than nothing.

DoctorTom
07-01-2014, 19:00
The rules info is super-depressing, though! It boggles the mind that so many things would become worse (or laterally mediocre) compared to their current incarnations.

The Adeptus Sororitas send their commiserations. ;)

Kijamon
07-01-2014, 19:07
C'mon guys...at least our models are cool? I'm just starting nids haha, maybe picked a bad time, but ah well. I'll find something that works hopefully!

Now is the perfect time to start, you'll have plenty of people throwing their models in the bin so go around offering pennies for nids at your local club.

ReveredChaplainDrake
07-01-2014, 19:18
Oh yes, the esteemed RCD has already deemed the codex a failure with no reservations.
Why should I hold reservations anymore? When we knew a release date and some fake rumors, the thought was "Tyranids could be good if these rumors are real." They were not real. Then the goalposts moved when the WD came out. The thought was "Tyranids could be good if the batrep just wasn't telling us about any cool rules that changed." As it turns out, there wasn't much change after all. Then this thread came about, bringing in some equally bad and legitimate news, but we couldn't know for sure because the OP was a bit shaky about details at first. The thought was "Tyranids can still be good if the OP is lying." He was not. Now we're in some kind of blenderized denial of "Tyranids can still be good if the OP isn't telling us everything or his English is bad and the stuff that he isn't telling us is awesome new rock-your-socks special rules and the upgrades aren't too expensive for what they do and they're reliable enough to build a list around, AND..."

I'm tired of asterisks. Sure, I suppose some Screamerstar-esque abomination from the depths of the games design's narrative-unbalancing wing of GW managed to sneak in and could make the codex awesome, but too much has confirmed to be too wrong for the codex to be good as a whole. That's not to say don't hope for Tyraind Screamerstar, but there's really no hope for anything else in the rumors we've heard and, well, Screamerstar is a dirty word for a reason. Besides, it's not all bad being a pessimist. The worst that can happen is that I'm pleasantly surprised by how wrong I am. But make no mistake, I take no joy in 40k's metagame becoming more stale and unhealthy, even if I get to say "I told ya' so" at the end.

DoctorTom
07-01-2014, 19:19
C'mon guys...at least our models are cool? I'm just starting nids haha, maybe picked a bad time, but ah well. I'll find something that works hopefully!

Kijamon's reponse may be only half joking, but it might not be a bad time at all. With the changes in 6th edition pushing things more toward shooting than assaults and apparently the Codex changing to accomodate the shooty Nid list more, you'll probably see more grumbling from people who have played Nids for quite a while finding their armies don't work the same as they did before. Just starting out now, you won't necessarily have the preconception of how your Nid army "has" to be built, and might find quite a lot to like in the new Codex working with the new paradigm.

Azazel
07-01-2014, 19:39
Thank you Sinsigel for taking the time to post this info. Shame on those who caused offence, I bet you lot are fun to play with.

One question if I may, what is the Swarm Lord like?

still-young
07-01-2014, 19:47
Kijamon's reponse may be only half joking, but it might not be a bad time at all. With the changes in 6th edition pushing things more toward shooting than assaults and apparently the Codex changing to accomodate the shooty Nid list more, you'll probably see more grumbling from people who have played Nids for quite a while finding their armies don't work the same as they did before. Just starting out now, you won't necessarily have the preconception of how your Nid army "has" to be built, and might find quite a lot to like in the new Codex working with the new paradigm.

i guess this is true, I'm not really bothered about how it is in assault, shooting is okay by me! Whatever way it swings, as long as I'm not destined to lose before I put my models down and I enjoy playing it's okay by me.

PhalanxLord
07-01-2014, 19:56
Kijamon's reponse may be only half joking, but it might not be a bad time at all. With the changes in 6th edition pushing things more toward shooting than assaults and apparently the Codex changing to accomodate the shooty Nid list more, you'll probably see more grumbling from people who have played Nids for quite a while finding their armies don't work the same as they did before. Just starting out now, you won't necessarily have the preconception of how your Nid army "has" to be built, and might find quite a lot to like in the new Codex working with the new paradigm.

Don't you mean old paradigm? In the 3rd ed back of the rulebook version nids were not shooty at all. In the 3rd ed book they gained more shooty options but not a whole lot. In the 4th ed book nids had great guns and were amazing at shooty but were on the road to being mediocre at close combat. 5th ed changed the direction to be more melee based, but nids were still excellent at shooting. This book just sounds like it's gone back on track to making nids even better at shooting than before while still being able to hold their own in close combat. Other than in 5th we've been moving towards shooting. We're mostly just moving back to being closer to the 4th ed paradigm of tyranid armies.

Personally I think the book is looking great for the most part. Sure we lost biomancy, but that was always just a bonus. Trygons got worse? I was already finding that they weren't worth it except for fun games. At least they are cheaper now, and it sounds like they might have access to more biomorphs. I feel that AG giving out fleet hurts them more than scything talons does though since now anything can get fleet and they are no longer "fast" MCs. We can now make fexes and the like be just as fast as Trygons.

Warriors not becoming better? They've never been good (and this is coming from someone with over 20 warriors). Meanwhile, they can at least get fleet now and close combat warriors will have an extra attack and are likely a bit cheaper than before. So they're still better, even if not amazing.

Cheaper gaunts? Totally awesome. Sure the upgrades are more expensive, but you generally wanted to keep them cheap anyway. Devilgaunts are now two points cheaper so unless the devourer has been nerfed they have gotten a huge boost.

Stealers? They can now take an additional attack for cheap and according to what people have said the broodlord is capable of pinning units. Pinning. It still requires some luck and it sure as hell isn't assault grenades, but it's far better than them not having any way of assaulting people and retaining initiative. I count that as a boost. Rending claws being AP5 is also quite nice as there are a surprising amount of 5+ save enemies out there. It means more potential wins with less losses.

Our friend here was saying that hive guard will pretty much crush wave serpents. Sounds like they have some sort of buff there to me.

If the rumors about zoans are true, they retain warp blast and now all have a form of psychic scream as a nova power and are cheaper. Sounds like another win to me.

Lictors sound like they will be around 50pts each. If they get back shrouding like they had in the 3rd and 4th edition books then they will be harder to deal with by our opponents and if they can DS without scatter still then they might actually be a fairly decent unit due to how cheap they are. Drop three down behind enemies lines and assuming no stat changes and with shrouding they would have to deal with 9 wounds with a 3+ cover save that would charge for possibly 15 attacks (3+1 for ST+RC + 1 for charging) at AP5 base. Easily capable of taking out rear units like devs, psyflemen, and threatening super heavies.

Tyrants apparently got a nice points decrease as well, not to mention that the new bonesword ability is far more useful than the old single bonesword one. Sounds like lash whips are potentially worse though, but they may be able to take flesh hooks. We know nothing about what is on the biomorphs list right now, except that it is different than at least "Adrenaline Glands, Toxin Sacs, Flesh Hooks". If lash whips give an initiative bonus and tyrants can take flesh hooks than they might be quite a bit more useful for close combat (though shooting is likely still the best). That's not even looking at the potential artifacts and the like.

These are just a couple of examples. The new IB may be worse and a couple of units may have gotten some nerfs and we may have lost a couple of units (Ymgarls, Parasite, Doom, Spore) but I think that overall we're better off. Personally my main point of curiosity is the stats of our fliers. T5 and a 4+ save means that they will never be taken, even if they are now 5 wounds. They really need at least a 3+ save if not also T6 (which would still put them as being far more fragile than any fliers with an AV higher than 10 or 11).

vortexdr
07-01-2014, 20:19
Huh? No where does it say we flat out lost access to biomancy...Hell for a matter of fact even the Tyranid cards say we can use those or the BRB powers.

Azulthar
07-01-2014, 20:36
Huh? No where does it say we flat out lost access to biomancy...Hell for a matter of fact even the Tyranid cards say we can use those or the BRB powers.
Tyranid access to Biomancy is now more limited, not gone entirely.


C'mon guys...at least our models are cool? I'm just starting nids haha, maybe picked a bad time, but ah well. I'll find something that works hopefully!
There's no reason to believe the army will be weak, it's just not the Tyranid army list many of us want to see. If you like Big Bugs with Guns, this might actually turn out to be the best Tyranid codex so far.

nosebiter
07-01-2014, 20:42
Tyranid access to Biomancy is now more limited, not gone entirely.


There's no reason to believe the army will be weak, it's just not the Tyranid army list many of us want to see. If you like Big Bugs with Guns, this might actually turn out to be the best Tyranid codex so far.


Or if you arent interested in the best tourney/waac/spam build and your mates arent either, then we prob should be fine.

vortexdr
07-01-2014, 20:46
Kind of curious that he says the Hive Tyrant loses Biomancy. If anything I would of understood them removing it from Troop choice Tervigons as arguably having a T9 scoring models was a little too strong. THen again guess a flyer at T9 also good but hmm I dont see why the Tyrant would lose it over the Tervigon's.

kjolnir
07-01-2014, 21:04
Huh? No where does it say we flat out lost access to biomancy...Hell for a matter of fact even the Tyranid cards say we can use those or the BRB powers.

They could be referring to things like the Broodlord, which apparently (but not 100% confirmed) have fixed psychic powers. Similar to the 5e codex where power availability varied by the unit in question, the word is that Hive Tyrants no longer have access to biomancy.

Azulthar
07-01-2014, 21:07
Or if you arent interested in the best tourney/waac/spam build and your mates arent either, then we prob should be fine.
It's not just tourney/waac players that are affected by this. Even cooperative RPGs benefit from good game balance.

Talons in the Darkness
07-01-2014, 21:15
Pure speculation here, but what stood out for me on the tail biomorphs info is that there is an option for a poisoned tail attack which, and I could be wrong here, I think is new.

I'm looking at the Trygon model and the standard GW approved tail has a huge toxin sac attached to it which under current rules don't have an impact. What I'm thinking is that maybe the Trygon (likely Mawloc) is going to get some tail biomorphs stock or as options. This doesn't really make up for a loss of rerolls on attacks but it may be something.

Also, the new Tryanid Prime model has a new tail addition which may only be aesthetic but could be a tail option as well. Which hopefully means the similarly styled Hive Tyrant tail gets something too.....

ReveredChaplainDrake
07-01-2014, 21:26
Tyranid access to Biomancy is now more limited, not gone entirely.
But for the Hive Tyrant to not have it? Zoanthropes and Broodlords I get, fixed powers and all. But Farssers still had Divination, even though Crimson Hunters have no access to that table. Maybe Tervigons, who are more baby-factory first and psyker second, but Hive Tyrants? If this is your assertion, who would have Biomancy access at all? Just Swarmlord? What other Tyranid psykers are there?

Azulthar
07-01-2014, 21:50
But for the Hive Tyrant to not have it? Zoanthropes and Broodlords I get, fixed powers and all. But Farssers still had Divination, even though Crimson Hunters have no access to that table. Maybe Tervigons, who are more baby-factory first and psyker second, but Hive Tyrants? If this is your assertion, who would have Biomancy access at all? Just Swarmlord? What other Tyranid psykers are there?
I imagine just the Tervigon. Who knows, maybe the Warrior or Trygon Primes will turn out to be a psykers (doubt it though). And don't get me wrong, I'm saddened by the loss of Biomancy/Telepathy as well. Really liked those two disciplines.

Another thing I'm going to miss is the Doom of Malantai. Mostly for fluff-reasons. Never cared much for the Parasite or the Shrikes, though it's never fun to lose units.

vortexdr
07-01-2014, 21:53
Honestly I cant see them flat out removing access to Biomancy without buffing our MC toughness values across the board.

I mean why do thing like the Wrathknight have T8 while our big guys are at T6 meaning any little gun can actually wound them.

Well Lasguns cant, but its not like IG needs any help killing MC's considering they have Beasthunter shells.

RedemptionNL
07-01-2014, 21:58
Honestly I cant see them flat out removing access to Biomancy without buffing our MC toughness values across the board.

I mean why do thing like the Wrathknight have T8 while our big guys are at T6 meaning any little gun can actually wound them.

Well Lasguns cant, but its not like IG needs any help killing MC's considering they have Beasthunter shells.
Hate to be the one to break it to you, but S3 hurts T6 just as easily as S4 does.

Commissar Merces
07-01-2014, 22:22
Tyranids lose biomancy?

184914

I doubt this guy is trolling, I mean that's clearly the book, but damn. Just damn.

Ssilmath
07-01-2014, 22:26
Pretty sure you'll manage to get by without your crutch.

kjolnir
07-01-2014, 22:26
Honestly I cant see them flat out removing access to Biomancy without buffing our MC toughness values across the board.

I mean why do thing like the Wrathknight have T8 while our big guys are at T6 meaning any little gun can actually wound them.

Well Lasguns cant, but its not like IG needs any help killing MC's considering they have Beasthunter shells.

Lasguns can, on a 6 to wound. You have to be weapon strength +4 to be unwoundable by the weapon.

kjolnir
07-01-2014, 22:31
Pretty sure you'll manage to get by without your crutch.

It's funny...even with access to Biomancy I only get Iron Arm about 1/3 of the time. I don't know that I've ever gotten it on both my flyrants at the same time.

When they get Iron Arm they still die, just not as quickly and not to silly things like bolters. They make the opponent actually focus on them and dedicate resources to kill them. In the meantime, I am bearing down on them with other threats. It put the enemy in a dilemma where there was not a very good choice no matter what they picked, which is one of the primary tenets of modern maneuver warfare. It works "ok" in 40K, but the principle was there.

Not saying that the same sort of dynamic won't exist in the new book, but if it does, it's somewhere else now if this is true. Which is a bit disappointing, because I like my flyrants. They're not terribad now or anything, just not quite as good, though costing much less, so maybe it's a wash.

Given the relatively lackluster state of the 5e codex, I'd hardly call this a crutch, but whatever.

Commissar Merces
07-01-2014, 22:31
Pretty sure you'll manage to get by without your crutch.

Biomancy isn't a crutch… if it is it is a poorly designed one as you aren't guaranteed to get the power you want on any given psyker. Think that's a pretty ridiculous thing to say. Don't be trolling.

Biomancy was a fantastic ability that we had to make our gants survive in close combat thanks to enfeebling other units. It gave our monstrous creatures a FnP save since we have no invul saves for some stupid reason.

OH and it gave us the ability to field monstrous creatures that are equally as tough as some of their newer counterparts.

Ssilmath
07-01-2014, 22:34
If it isn't a crutch then why the grief and lamentations? Why the cries of "ruined forever"?

Commissar Merces
07-01-2014, 22:36
If it isn't a crutch then why the grief and lamentations? Why the cries of "ruined forever"?

Umm… because it was an effective tactic to make our models worth taking?

Also, it seems we lost some of our ability to deep strike. So that's another kick in the balls.

still-young
07-01-2014, 22:37
The psychic cards description says about the tyranid powers being used in conjunction with the rule book ones so...

MajorWesJanson
07-01-2014, 22:38
Biomancy isn't a crutch… if it is it is a poorly designed one as you aren't guaranteed to get the power you want on any given psyker. Think that's a pretty ridiculous thing to say. Don't be trolling.

Biomancy was a fantastic ability that we had to make our gants survive in close combat thanks to enfeebling other units. It gave our monstrous creatures a FnP save since we have no invul saves for some stupid reason.

OH and it gave us the ability to field monstrous creatures that are equally as tough as some of their newer counterparts.

Biomancy was a crutch when combined with the fact that tervigons and hive tyrants would get 3 rolls each on the chart, resulting in lists with 15+ rolls on Biomancy. With psyker levels for nids being toned back to sane levels, it would have been fine, and Biomancy ought to remain.

kjolnir
07-01-2014, 22:39
The psychic cards description says about the tyranid powers being used in conjunction with the rule book ones so...

Yeah but the question is which Tyranid models actually have access to BRB powers. It appears that not all models do.

kjolnir
07-01-2014, 22:40
Biomancy was a crutch when combined with the fact that tervigons and hive tyrants would get 3 rolls each on the chart, resulting in lists with 15+ rolls on Biomancy. With psyker levels for nids being toned back to sane levels, it would have been fine, and Biomancy ought to remain.

Hive Tyrants get two rolls, not three. 1/3 chance of getting any given power.

still-young
07-01-2014, 22:50
Yeah but the question is which Tyranid models actually have access to BRB powers. It appears that not all models do.
Ah okay, I seeeeee

Ssilmath
07-01-2014, 22:52
Umm… because it was an effective tactic to make our models worth taking?

Sorry to break it to you, that's called a crutch. Even if you didn't get anything to make up for it, people will still find a way to utilize their units effectively. It'll be alright.

kjolnir
07-01-2014, 23:06
Sorry to break it to you, that's called a crutch. Even if you didn't get anything to make up for it, people will still find a way to utilize their units effectively. It'll be alright.

So every effective unit that's worth taking is a crutch?

Come on.

Scribe of Khorne
07-01-2014, 23:08
Nids with Biomancy was *********** DUMB. I pray to Khorne that its gone.

Commissar Merces
07-01-2014, 23:11
Sorry to break it to you, that's called a crutch. Even if you didn't get anything to make up for it, people will still find a way to utilize their units effectively. It'll be alright.

Are you really implying every effective unit is a crutch? So does that mean divination is a crutch?

Come on, tyranids are essentially the only candidate outside of chaos for biomancy. I don't have a problem with tyranids having good psychic powers. They are warp essence basically.

PS: Heldrakes are *********** dumb, but they aren't going anywhere.

kjolnir
07-01-2014, 23:17
Are you really implying every effective unit is a crutch? So does that mean divination is a crutch?

Come on, tyranids are essentially the only candidate outside of chaos for biomancy. I don't have a problem with tyranids having good psychic powers. They are warp essence basically.

PS: Heldrakes are *********** dumb, but they aren't going anywhere.

Heldrakes are a crutch. Clearly.

Scribe of Khorne
07-01-2014, 23:17
Heldrakes ARE *********** dumb, and a crutch, for the entire book. No disagreement there.

EDIT: And frankly its dumb on the same scale. Biomancy on an MC renders some books impotent to deal with the threat. Just as some books have a hard time (less so now than at release) of a Heldrake.

These types of hard counters or paper rock scissors units are fairly brainless, and not 'fun' for anyone.

3eland
07-01-2014, 23:38
Anyone else find it confusing that mostly all Tyranid models lost attack(s) to make up for the scything talons giving +1 attacks yet 'Gaunts remain at 2 attacks? Essentially meaning they would have 3 attacks from the scything talons, 4 on the charge? For 5 points, that's 120 attacks for a mere 150 points. I can understand GW giving them more attacks to equalize the amount that will die before hitting close combat but that's a little silly don't you think? Especially since things like the Trygon lost attacks to make up for the bonus' of combined melee weapons.

Voss
07-01-2014, 23:41
Are you really implying every effective unit is a crutch?
Doesn't look like it. He seems to be saying that there are effective uses for tyranid MCs, regardless of whether or not players are relying too heavily on the temporary edition change errata and praying for a roll that results in the easy-button psychic powers in biomancy; something that the army list wasn't even built for in the first place.

In particular, I do believe he's responding to the 'biomancy makes tyranid MCs "worth taking" idea.


Anyone else find it confusing that mostly all Tyranid models lost attack(s) to make up for the scything talons giving +1 attacks yet 'Gaunts remain at 2 attacks? Essentially meaning they would have 3 attacks from the scything talons, 4 on the charge? For 5 points, that's 120 attacks for a mere 150 points. I can understand GW giving them more attacks to equalize the amount that will die before hitting close combat but that's a little silly don't you think? Especially since things like the Trygon lost attacks to make up for the bonus' of combined melee weapons.
That isn't how any of that works. Pairs of tyranid weapons only give +1 attack if there are two pair (i.e., 4). So that rule in the designer's note doesn't effect hormagaunts at all (and the note even points out that hormagaunts don't get the bonus, so it is completely unambiguous). They always have 2 attacks, except for on the charge, when they have 3.

The new scything talons are a nerf for everyone that starts with just talons as default, as everything that starts with two sets loses a base attack (which is given back by having a second set), but they also lose their rerolls, and nothing, apparently, gives that back.

*fun math hammer note: Upgrading hormagaunt (at all) is pretty terrible, unless you solely intend them for MC hunting (or other high T models). Against marines, a base unit of 10 w/ toxin does 5.0 wounds; just by extra numbers the same points in un-upgraded gaunts does 5.333 wounds.

3eland
07-01-2014, 23:58
Okay that makes a lot more sense now. I missed the part where it said each pair is considered a single weapon my bad.

Fear Ghoul
07-01-2014, 23:59
Honestly I cant see them flat out removing access to Biomancy without buffing our MC toughness values across the board.

I mean why do thing like the Wrathknight have T8 while our big guys are at T6 meaning any little gun can actually wound them.

Well Lasguns cant, but its not like IG needs any help killing MC's considering they have Beasthunter shells.

Presumably because the Wraithknight is about twice the size.


Umm… because it was an effective tactic to make our models worth taking?

Also, it seems we lost some of our ability to deep strike. So that's another kick in the balls.

The point is that several of the Tyranid monstrous creatures were already worth taking, such as the Flying Hive Tyrant and Tervigon. They worked fine without Biomancy, so claims that they needed Biomancy imply that people were using it as a crutch. Furthermore, we don't know yet what other synergies will arise in the new book, so being disappointed this early with so little information is premature. If memory serves people said the same thing about Tau, Eldar, and Daemons, and look where they are.

ReveredChaplainDrake
08-01-2014, 00:40
Heldrakes ARE *********** dumb, and a crutch, for the entire book. No disagreement there.

EDIT: And frankly its dumb on the same scale. Biomancy on an MC renders some books impotent to deal with the threat. Just as some books have a hard time (less so now than at release) of a Heldrake.

These types of hard counters or paper rock scissors units are fairly brainless, and not 'fun' for anyone.
If you land a Krak Missile on a Helldrake, you have a 33% chance to knock off 33% of its durability, and a whopping 2/54 shot to destroy it instantly. If you land a Krak Missile on a Flyrant, you have an 87% shot to knock off 25% of its durability, and on top of that a 33% chance for another 87% shot at another -25% of its durability, and then hit it on BS and be able to assault it for the rest of the turn. Oh, and Lasguns can ground Hive Tyrants, even when T9. But the Tyrant is 100 pts more expensive. You do not want to try and argue the superiority, or even the equivalency, of FMCs to Flyers in this meta, Iron Arm or not. Also, I have no pity for some armies finding themselves impotent to a threat when they can take pretty much anything they lack from some other army (or increasingly their own army, thanks to Supplements) to solve their problems. Unlike say, Tyranids. Oh, and weapon emplacements. Again, unlike Tyranids.

What makes something a crutch isn't really about the unit itself, but the other units available to the same army, including from other armies if you're one of those special little alliance-privileged factions, for comparable points. Each option is then compared to the rest of the game, and if no other option is viable, that one viable option is a crutch. Helldrakes are a crutch because they are far more effective than anything approaching their cost in the CSM codex, which is plagued with terrible, terrible units compared to their equals across the meta. The Helldrake is the only thing that can keep up with the current meta, and it's not like any modern codex has any real problems taking them down. Ergo, crutch. Likewise, the Tyranid codex is loaded with terrible, terrible units, and only Hive Guard, Tervigons and Flyrants can compete. Ergo, crutches. While crutches are certainly bad for the game, it's more to the fault of the codex for being so feeble, much like an injured person needs crutches to walk because of a bad leg. Don't begrudge the crutch, but the injury.

What I think you're really railing against is more like, to continue the analogy, an able-bodied man with a lead pipe (e.g. Riptide spam, arguably Lash from 5th), which is unquestionably stupid. The problem is that, without Biomancy, Tyranids are hardly an able-bodied man.

Scribe of Khorne
08-01-2014, 00:55
I've got no argument against effective units, but I do take issue with your points on Tyrants with Iron arm. Its completely fine to run all the math you want, but these units are not in a vacuum and when a list can bring more MC's than most, and those MC's are doing other things that cannot be ignored, you have a problem when those units are not only deadly, but hard enough to kill that it poorly skews the list building.

For example, what is bad from a conceptual point? ML spam Wolves. Long Fangs, and Terminators with Cyclones made a bad day of a number of things, especially Nids from my experience.

That list is a 'bad' list as its forces choices on everyone involved. Biomancy Spam Nids does the same thing.

Remove the word crutch, its irrelevent, I simply dont like the impact Biomancy has on Nids power level from a balance perspective, not that nothing can be done about it (Wolf ML Spam) but what it does to the meta around here.

ReveredChaplainDrake
08-01-2014, 01:51
When Tyranids force other armies to make options, those other armies are actually capable of making those options. When other armies resort to OP nonsense against Tyranids, the only option Tyranids have is to segregate their opponents or get comfortable with losing.

What exactly do you mean by Tyrants "doing things that cannot be ignored"? Confer Synapse? Contest objectives? Deny Slay the Warlord? Vector Strike? (At which point it cuts its devourer shots in half that turn. Anybody who says otherwise is cheating you.) If you have an efficient list and good target priority, you'd be amazed the stuff you can ignore, especially from Tyranids. Flyrants specifically are light damage dealers with far superior defensive abilities compared to their offense. (And don't even try to suggest that you can't ignore a Swarmlord...) The only thing you can't really categorically ignore that has Iron Arm access is the Tervigon, who can win the game on spawnings alone, and which everybody, including Tyranid players, expects to be nerfed. And then we're not really talking about Tyrants anymore.

If you're really all that concerned about the effect that two Biomancy Flyrants have on the meta, just wait 'til you see what a 5-Riptide Tau can do. Far more MCs than Tyranids. Far greater threat range. Far better save. And your cover, flyers, and pretty much all manners of Reserves are worthless.

Commissar Merces
08-01-2014, 01:59
I'm sorry, but Biomancy is not OP. Yeah I got by in 5th edition without iron arm, but I got by with gene stealers assaulting from outflank + doom + death leaper + Swarm lord + "fly" rant (who didn't really fly at the time). I didn't even take tervigons until 6th edition. I also had a strong affinity for zoanthropes in pods. Things worked fine before iron arm. Iron arm just opened up more options after gene stealers got the nerf bat with no charge from outflank.

Biomancy isn't a crutch, it's a convenience.

Scribe of Khorne
08-01-2014, 02:19
When Tyranids force other armies to make options, those other armies are actually capable of making those options. When other armies resort to OP nonsense against Tyranids, the only option Tyranids have is to segregate their opponents or get comfortable with losing.

What exactly do you mean by Tyrants "doing things that cannot be ignored"? Confer Synapse? Contest objectives? Deny Slay the Warlord? Vector Strike? (At which point it cuts its devourer shots in half that turn. Anybody who says otherwise is cheating you.) If you have an efficient list and good target priority, you'd be amazed the stuff you can ignore, especially from Tyranids. Flyrants specifically are light damage dealers with far superior defensive abilities compared to their offense. (And don't even try to suggest that you can't ignore a Swarmlord...) The only thing you can't really categorically ignore that has Iron Arm access is the Tervigon, who can win the game on spawnings alone, and which everybody, including Tyranid players, expects to be nerfed. And then we're not really talking about Tyrants anymore.

If you're really all that concerned about the effect that two Biomancy Flyrants have on the meta, just wait 'til you see what a 5-Riptide Tau can do. Far more MCs than Tyranids. Far greater threat range. Far better save. And your cover, flyers, and pretty much all manners of Reserves are worthless.

You're kneejerking. :]

I disagree with the assertion here that you must be OP and broken, to have a decent game. I think 5 Riptides is a travesty and that outside the most dick headed tournament list, has no place in morally decent 40K. The option for that list doesnt mean we should get MORE of those types of lists.

Ssilmath
08-01-2014, 02:28
I'm pretty much with Scribe of Khorne on this. Once things have settled down a bit, the hardcore tourney crowd will have figured out the best combination and that's what you'll see at the major tourneys. This happens with every book, it's nothing new. From the looks of it, everybody else who plays less competitively will have a broader availability of options available that are at the least decent and likely good. Points drops across the board should help offset some of the hurt of losing Biomancy on a couple of Monstrous Creatures.

Who knows, maybe people will figure out that including more LOS blocking terrain lets Genestealers and Warriors move up the board a bit more easily. I've played in that kind of environment and seen it happen, Tervigon spam wasn't needed. But that's not likely to happen, unfortunately.

Vepr
08-01-2014, 02:51
I'm pretty much with Scribe of Khorne on this. Once things have settled down a bit, the hardcore tourney crowd will have figured out the best combination and that's what you'll see at the major tourneys. This happens with every book, it's nothing new. From the looks of it, everybody else who plays less competitively will have a broader availability of options available that are at the least decent and likely good. Points drops across the board should help offset some of the hurt of losing Biomancy on a couple of Monstrous Creatures.

Who knows, maybe people will figure out that including more LOS blocking terrain lets Genestealers and Warriors move up the board a bit more easily. I've played in that kind of environment and seen it happen, Tervigon spam wasn't needed. But that's not likely to happen, unfortunately.

It could be that GW crews play test with a ton of terrain. It might explain the last Tyranid codex a little bit other than Cruddace being a lackluster dex writer. Unfortunately it seems that even friendly games with videos you see posted on sites like BOLS or youtube do not include enough terrain. I rarely see games at my LFG that have a decent amount of terrain. Probably part of the reason Tau are wrecking face.

insectum7
08-01-2014, 03:13
Presumably because the Wraithknight is about twice the size.


But a Wraithlord is about half the size of some of the Tyranid MCs that are being talked about, and it has Toughness 8 as well.



I'm sorry, but Biomancy is not OP.

Seriously, I've seen it in use and it's a good power but it ain't a cheesecake.



I simply dont like the impact Biomancy has on Nids power level from a balance perspective

Maybe I haven't seen the build for it that you have. Do you have an example of a supposedly OP build using Biomancy?

MajorWesJanson
08-01-2014, 03:20
But a Wraithlord is about half the size of some of the Tyranid MCs that are being talked about, and it has Toughness 8 as well?

Well, the Wraithlord was originally a walker, then became T8 and stayed that way ever since. It was the progenitor of the Walkers using MC rules instead of Vehicle-walker rules.

insectum7
08-01-2014, 03:25
Well, the Wraithlord was originally a walker, then became T8 and stayed that way ever since. It was the progenitor of the Walkers using MC rules instead of Vehicle-walker rules.

And it is, in my eyes, maybe the only one that still get's a "pass" in that regard.

Raverrn
08-01-2014, 03:25
But a Wraithlord is about half the size of some of the Tyranid MCs that are being talked about, and it has Toughness 8 as well.

Bigger != tougher, and there are some things tougher than flesh and bone, even superbones or whatever stupid **** 'nids use.

insectum7
08-01-2014, 03:30
Bigger != tougher, and there are some things tougher than flesh and bone, even superbones or whatever stupid **** 'nids use.

That was kinda my point, that size is not a good indicator of toughness value.

To bring it back to gameplay though, I am appreciative that S 4 has a chance to wound something with T 6 and 7. A torrent of fire from bolters having a slight chance to wound is satisfying in a Starship Troopers sorta way.

Xerkics
08-01-2014, 03:55
You guys speak of bio mancy on tyranid mc like its a sure thing some games you won't get a single iron arm on ANY mc. So hardly as op like Riptide spam, let's not forget those fly rants take unsoakable str9 hits from bloody marker lights nm flak. Fly rant without iron arm just needs to get grounded to go Poof in 1 turn. It only appears as a crutch because there is lack of other options while in a codex like Tau stuff like Stealth suits is not even considered that good. Crutch indeed I think not.

Lord Dan
08-01-2014, 04:01
I don't play 40K and I know nothing about Tyranids, however I wanted to say that the first 5-6 pages of this thread proved to be a thoroughly entertaining read.

Ssilmath
08-01-2014, 04:04
You guys speak of bio mancy on tyranid mc like its a sure thing some games you won't get a single iron arm on ANY mc. So hardly as op like Riptide spam, let's not forget those fly rants take unsoakable str9 hits from bloody marker lights nm flak. Fly rant without iron arm just needs to get grounded to go Poof in 1 turn. It only appears as a crutch because there is lack of other options while in a codex like Tau stuff like Stealth suits is not even considered that good. Crutch indeed I think not.

We don't like Riptide spam either. Nor is your statement accurate, Flyrants take a str 9 hit if they fail a grounding test not just by getting hit. Nor does it go poof in one turn after being grounded, they're still reasonably tough and take concentrated fire to kill.

Vepr
08-01-2014, 04:08
There is another thread over the on the BOLS forums with another person that has the dex. He posted some more shots of things like biomorphs and bioartifacts and answered some questions. So far from what we are seeing and what was reported it sounds like nids are possibly underwhelming again. The cost reductions might prove have a larger impact than we are guessing and it could depend on how expensive the biomorphs are but so far it appears to be a resounding meh.

Xerkics
08-01-2014, 04:11
We don't like Riptide spam either. Nor is your statement accurate, Flyrants take a str 9 hit if they fail a grounding test not just by getting hit. Nor does it go poof in one turn after being grounded, they're still reasonably tough and take concentrated fire to kill.
Personal experience may vary and you are just nitpicking here you know what I meant say that fly rants can take str 9 hits from marker lights and grounded tyrant will get focus fired or your opponent is an idiot. 3+ on flyrant isn't a lot an unlucky tyrant can get killed by a mob of guardsmen shooting flashlights .After you been grounded assuming you took no other damage you got 3 wounds.

Xerkics
08-01-2014, 04:14
There is another thread over the on the BOLS forums with another person that has the dex. He posted some more shots of things like biomorphs and bioartifacts and answered some questions. So far from what we are seeing and what was reported it sounds like nids are possibly underwhelming again. The cost reductions might prove have a larger impact than we are guessing and it could depend on how expensive the biomorphs are but so far it appears to be a resounding meh.

Well one of them is wrong because according to bols for example bone sworDs grant no str bonus unlike what was mentioned here

Voss
08-01-2014, 04:15
Well, the Wraithlord was originally a walker, then became T8 and stayed that way ever since. It was the progenitor of the Walkers using MC rules instead of Vehicle-walker rules.

Well.... not exactly. Originally, going back to RT, ALL vehicles had toughness values and damage points (wounds) values. And dreadnoughts (imperial, orks and elder) happened through WD, and then various different attempts at vehicle rules happened (including the wacky grid location system), and then second edition happened, and then those vehicle rules changed and then third edition, the trial rules for everything and 4th and so on.

But if you go back far enough (and I'm actually pulling these values from Slaves to Darkness), Land Raiders had Toughness 8 and 50 Damage points (keep in mind that a lot of weapons did multiple wounds- lascannons did 2d6, for example, and the die types and ranges were pretty wild); Rhinos were T8 and had 40 Damage points; Contemptor Dreads were T8 and 11 Damage points; and the forgotten Furibundus Dreads were T10 with 20 DP.

So, really, the eldar dreadnought (later renamed wraithlord) is just a anachronistic holdover from the original vehicle system of RT (modified largely by the reality that 3rd+ edition heavy weapons don't do multiple wounds anymore), where everything had Toughness and Wounds. The main difference between walkers and other vehicles originally was that walkers had a normal movement value rather than a max speed and the horribly clunky acceleration/deceleration value and turning radius.


Well one of them is wrong because according to bols for example bone sworDs grant no str bonus unlike what was mentioned here

It was mentioned here as an upgrade. Specifically a 'bio-artifact', not a general property of bone swords (which are user's Str).

Ssilmath
08-01-2014, 04:15
Personal experience may vary and you are just nitpicking here you know what I meant say that fly rants can take str 9 hits from marker lights and grounded tyrant will get focus fired or your opponent is an idiot. 3+ on flyrant isn't a lot an unlucky tyrant can get killed by a mob of guardsmen shooting flashlights .After you been grounded assuming you took no other damage you got 3 wounds.

Same can be said for Belakor, and he is both much more expensive and squishier than a Hive Tyrant. It's one of the hazards of taking a Flying Monstrous Creature.

Xerkics
08-01-2014, 04:22
Same can be said for Belakor, and he is both much more expensive and squishier than a Hive Tyrant. It's one of the hazards of taking a Flying Monstrous Creature.
Last time I checked daemons come with an invulnerable save across the board some like Big Bird an absurdly good one, hardly the same position as tyranids who have none on things apart from zoanthropes.

Commissar Merces
08-01-2014, 04:44
Well it looks like no tyranids have access to Biomancy as it is not listed in their psychic powers page as a useable discipline. I quote "Tyranids use the Powers of the Hive Mind, which is treated as a psychic discipline for all purposes." Does not say you can exchange for BRB powers anywhere.

Our psychic powers are extremely average at best, and terrible if you consider enfeeble, warp time, and of course, iron arm.

Looks like Zoanthropes will be level 2 at least though… since warp blast is a level 2 power.

It's official, I feel like I am on Hive Fleet Titanic.

Vepr
08-01-2014, 04:49
Well at least we have allies... :p Actually have we heard any confirmations on foc adjustments for nids?

Ssilmath
08-01-2014, 04:49
Well it looks like no tyranids have access to Biomancy as it is not listed in their psychic powers page as a useable discipline. I quote "Tyranids use the Powers of the Hive Mind, which is treated as a psychic discipline for all purposes." Does not say you can exchange for BRB powers anywhere.

Our psychic powers are extremely average at best, and terrible if you consider enfeeble, warp time, and of course, iron arm.

Daemons do not state anything about the BRB psychic powers in their psychic page either, and yet the unit entries show who has access to what. Still a bit early to be making this statement.

Inquisitor Shego
08-01-2014, 04:52
I need someone to talk me out of spending £300 on Nids at the end of the month, because I'm so excited and just want to put out this hulking mass of chitin.

Vepr
08-01-2014, 04:53
On the surface this codex seems to be a lazy recycled rehash. There is a lot we have not seen so this is probably unfair to say but so far color me unimpressed.

kjolnir
08-01-2014, 04:53
Well one of them is wrong because according to bols for example bone sworDs grant no str bonus unlike what was mentioned here

It's a typo I called to his attention and has been fixed.

Ssilmath
08-01-2014, 04:55
I need someone to talk me out of spending £300 on Nids at the end of the month, because I'm so excited and just want to put out this hulking mass of chitin.

If you do that, you'll be making the same decision I'll be making. Is that enough to talk you out of it? :D

Commissar Merces
08-01-2014, 04:55
Daemons do not state anything about the BRB psychic powers in their psychic page either, and yet the unit entries show who has access to what. Still a bit early to be making this statement.

I thought it did… maybe I am wrong though. Doesn't the eldar codex have it on their powers page?

Voss
08-01-2014, 04:57
Well at least we have allies... :p Actually have we heard any confirmations on foc adjustments for nids?

That appears to be one of the many lies from the website of liar collection. This is not at all surprising, particularly since it popped up so early in the rumor cycle, much like the 'they're really coming in december' nonsense.

Ssilmath
08-01-2014, 04:58
I thought it did… maybe I am wrong though. Doesn't the eldar codex have it on their powers page?
It does for Eldar, yes. You may be correct, and I don't feel like hashing out the biomancy thing again, but I think it is still too early to be making this statement. Can't you wait till the book is out before threatening to quit?

Commissar Merces
08-01-2014, 04:59
It does for Eldar, yes. You may be correct, and I don't feel like hashing out the biomancy thing again, but I think it is still too early to be making this statement. Can't you wait till the book is out before threatening to quit?

That's jumping to an extreme that I certainly haven't even mentioned. Don't put words in my mouth.

Ssilmath
08-01-2014, 05:01
Considering you've threatened to quit over just about every release since 6th dropped, and mentioned Hive Fleet Titanic, it was a logical conclusion to make.

Vepr
08-01-2014, 05:02
I have not played for two years but I was hoping that they would resurrect the mid sized bugs a bit. Still could happen if the swarm and medium guys are back to being viable I am bringing my nids out of mothballs. I love the big bigs also but nidzilla never really appealed to me.

Vepr
08-01-2014, 05:03
Considering you've threatened to quit over just about every release since 6th dropped, and mentioned Hive Fleet Titanic, it was a logical conclusion to make.

Hive Fleet Titanic. LOL that is good stuff. :D

kjolnir
08-01-2014, 05:04
Well it looks like no tyranids have access to Biomancy as it is not listed in their psychic powers page as a useable discipline. I quote "Tyranids use the Powers of the Hive Mind, which is treated as a psychic discipline for all purposes." Does not say you can exchange for BRB powers anywhere.

From the BRB about generating psychic powers:

"In some codexes, a Psyker will have a specific psychic power, or set of psychic powers - where this is the case it will be clearly stated in the relevant codex. Otherwise, a Psyker generates random psychic powers from amongst the psychic disciplines known to him."

At the top of the entry with the psychic powers in the codex, it says, "Tyranid Psykers use the Powers of the Hive Mind, which is treated as a psychic discipline for all rules purposes."

Seems pretty clear to me, BRB powers are gone unless the individual Psyker entries say otherwise.

Voss
08-01-2014, 05:04
It does for Eldar, yes. You may be correct, and I don't feel like hashing out the biomancy thing again, but I think it is still too early to be making this statement. Can't you wait till the book is out before threatening to quit?

Actually, I'm looking at them now (at least the digital versions). The daemon codex talks about mixing daemon powers with BRB powers on their power page(s) (and notes that only half of their powers can come from their patron). The elder power pages don't mention BRB powers at all.

But in both cases, who has access to what is defined in the unit entry of the army list and the bestiary entries. So anyone really worked up about BRB powers should wait until someone posts about the tyrant and tervigon entries. (Though personally I'm leaning toward the 'Tyranid Psykers use the Powers of the Hive Mind' means 'No.')

Commissar Merces
08-01-2014, 05:36
Considering you've threatened to quit over just about every release since 6th dropped, and mentioned Hive Fleet Titanic, it was a logical conclusion to make.

That's a bit of an exaggeration considering I only felt bad about an OP Tau codex, the new rulebook, sisters not getting a properly release, and now tyranids.

Anyways… all aboard!

184928

kjolnir
08-01-2014, 05:39
That's a bit of an exaggeration considering I only felt bad about an OP Tau codex, the new rulebook, sisters not getting a properly release, and now tyranids.

Anyways… all aboard!

184928


LOL that's awesome.

kjolnir
08-01-2014, 05:40
Actually, I'm looking at them now (at least the digital versions). The daemon codex talks about mixing daemon powers with BRB powers on their power page(s) (and notes that only half of their powers can come from their patron). The elder power pages don't mention BRB powers at all.

They allude to specific unit entries for the list of what's available. The Tyranid codex doesn't. That's why I'm thinking BRB powers are out. The blanket statement about all Pyskers using the Powers of the Hive Mind makes me think that way.

**edit to add**

In other words, the trend to this point is that all codexes with codex psychic power sections list all the tables which are available in the rules at the beginning of the powers section - either by listing them outright as in the CSM codex, or listing them indirectly by saying "these tables + unit entry."

If the trend holds, then the Tyranid codex is indeed listing all powers tables available - codex only.

Inquisitor Shego
08-01-2014, 06:15
If you do that, you'll be making the same decision I'll be making. Is that enough to talk you out of it? :D

Awww yeah. Hive Fleet Bromance here we come *high fives*

Wiseman
08-01-2014, 06:17
Potential for a 24" range on Synapse is pretty awesome, means that I can keep my Tyranid Prime back with a unit of shooty warriors, and still have my assaulty elements run forward (and being able to put my 100 hormagaunts on the table for 500 points, most armies will struggle dealing with this I'd imagine.). Im hoping he keeps his buff to BS and WS. Do we know if Rippers can still Deep Strike? Lictors infiltrating forward and bringing a big unit of rippers could be fun as well to tie up big units of enemy troops. I think this book will have a lot of cool tricks to use.

totgeboren
08-01-2014, 07:55
Just have to chime in on the biomancy and crutch/balance issue.
In my experience, a Nid list that failed to roll any Iron Arm would lose most games, and if they roll lots of iron arm they would just steamroll the enemy. From that point of view, it is obvious that the balance of the list itself interacts poorly with biomancy, mainly because of Iron Arm.

From a design point of view, I personally can't think of any way to make Nids balanced (that is, not too good and not too weak) whilst still retaining access to biomancy. Either they are too weak if they fail roll roll enough Iron Arms, or they are too strong if they roll many Iron Arm.

Just like now come to think of it, and the current Nid codex is just a mess.

Asdrubael108
08-01-2014, 10:18
http://rillietann.tumblr.com/post/72648387521/some-codex-tyranids-leaks, don't know if you guys saw this already, just found this but to lazy to look to the whole thread!:chrome:

Commissar Merces
08-01-2014, 14:06
According to someone with the codex in hand, the only units that can deep strike are the units that could've deep struck last edition WITHOUT a pod...

Things just keep getting better and better let me tell you.

gitburna
08-01-2014, 14:40
I need someone to talk me out of spending £300 on Nids at the end of the month, because I'm so excited and just want to put out this hulking mass of chitin.

Well I'd probably be shopping in the same place as you. In my case, what's talking me out of spending that much is that i still have some stuff i want to buy for marines...i want to get an ipad for codexes as i have ran out of space for the never ending stream of rulebooks...and i am expecting my own Monstrous Creature to hatch by the end of the summer which will start to consume all my resources and manpower, let alone taking over my dedicated wargames room at home :)

gitburna
08-01-2014, 14:57
If all the monstrous creatures and critters are a little bit cheaper - won't that help alleviate the loss of Biomancy anyway? Maybe I'm being overly simplistic but shouldn't sticking in an extra 1-2 MC (or more if broods of carnifexes become more efficient) help? When I play as nids I always found that lacking any kind of hitting power in the first turn or two didn't help - if something like an Exocrine or the T-Fex can now put some damage out in those first turns i should theoretically take a bit less damage in return and also have an extra MC or so to absorb any wounds.

That's my dream anyway.

ReveredChaplainDrake
08-01-2014, 15:14
Anyways… all aboard!

184928
Oddly appropriate: a gargantuan of effort and design unlike anything seen before it, thought unsinkable by designers and hopefuls alike, only to be undermined by one tiny, systematic design flaw. And an iceberg with the Intercept USR.

Ssilmath
08-01-2014, 15:21
Oddly appropriate: a gargantuan of effort and design unlike anything seen before it, thought unsinkable by designers and hopefuls alike, only to be undermined by one tiny, systematic design flaw. And an iceberg with the Intercept USR.

And also appropriately enough, sunk mostly due to the incompetence of the operators.

gitburna
08-01-2014, 15:34
And also appropriately enough, sunk mostly due to the incompetence of the operators.

Hive Fleet Titanic is so 3rd edition. Instead of the hidden power of the iceberg of the trial assault rules, 6th edition introduces Hive Fleet Costa Concordia where "tyranid collectors" try and sail too close to the metaphorical shoreline of powergaming only to run aground and capsize.

Plague Lord
08-01-2014, 16:44
Thing I am happy about:
Cheaper MCs
Cheaper Gaunts and gants
New flyers
The exocrine
Cool Wargear
New HQ options (trygon prime, deathleaper)
Mawloc being good

Things I am unhappy about:
Raveners nerfed to hell
No changes to the useless subterrain assault
No genestealer change
No warrior change (really it takes just 1 turn of riptide shootng to take a whole squad of the board)

Stuff I don't know yet or am unsure of:
Zoanthropes
Biovores (though if they are even cheaper I might have to give em heavy slot ;] )
lictors
haruspex
Hormagaunts (30 gaunts for 150 yes please, got faster and cheaper which seems like a decent trade for the nerf to talons (they still murder orks, kroot and cultists...)

Scribe of Khorne
08-01-2014, 21:11
And also appropriately enough, sunk mostly due to the incompetence of the operators.

Now that was a good one Ssilmath. :D

Spiney Norman
08-01-2014, 22:21
That's a bit of an exaggeration considering I only felt bad about an OP Tau codex, the new rulebook, sisters not getting a properly release, and now tyranids.

Anyways… all aboard!

184928

Brilliant, so we've reached the 'Sky is falling' stage then, it has to be said, with most releases we generally get there a lot sooner. Any minute now you'll have people announcing they are selling their armies, moving to a different country and taking up warmachine.

Hilarious how the cycle is always the same, no matter what the release.

Makaber
08-01-2014, 22:26
So is Mycetic Spore completely removed from the book? Also, is there any new units at all, besides the Hive Crone? I'm thinking specifically something that would be a natural "second option" in a new dual kit, thus indicating a new kit in the future.

Voss
08-01-2014, 22:35
So is Mycetic Spore completely removed from the book?
Yes. And the Doom and Parasite.
The Red Terror wandered back in as an addition to a single squad of Raveners, and is available as a finecast kit.


Also, is there any new units at all, besides the Hive Crone? I'm thinking specifically something that would be a natural "second option" in a new dual kit, thus indicating a new kit in the future.
Yes. The Exocrine and Haruspex. Which share a new kit.

The only things that could be defined as 'missing' would be the shrikes and 'sky-slashers' (flying devourers) which do have separate entries in the FA slot. Though wings and winged devourers are available via Forge World.

Avian
08-01-2014, 22:35
Have you forgotten the two bugs from Epic?

Sternguard777
08-01-2014, 23:58
Brilliant, so we've reached the 'Sky is falling' stage then, it has to be said, with most releases we generally get there a lot sooner. Any minute now you'll have people announcing they are selling their armies, moving to a different country and taking up warmachine.

Hilarious how the cycle is always the same, no matter what the release.

So is now the best time to buy everyone's Tyranid armies on ebay or should I wait until the book is actually out and they lose all hope?

Makaber
09-01-2014, 00:01
Yes. The Exocrine and Haruspex. Which share a new kit.

Well, I knew about those, but forgot them as I wrote the post, sorry. That makes me a bit sad, because it means there's nothing to look forward to. I'd expected at least one or two of the old Finecast kits to be replaced with plastic in a second wave at some stage, but it seems that's out the window, then.

On one hand, I'm a little disappointed. On the other hand, I suspect there's a lot we don't know yet. Also, I'm pleased there's no radical change. I've just started playing Tyranids, and just recently felt I've started to get the hang of them. With that in mind, it would be a setback in my learning of the army to have a radical change of direction or suddenly see half my models turn useless.

Voss
09-01-2014, 00:10
Well, I knew about those, but forgot them as I wrote the post, sorry. That makes me a bit sad, because it means there's nothing to look forward to. I'd expected at least one or two of the old Finecast kits to be replaced with plastic in a second wave at some stage, but it seems that's out the window, then.

Well, that could still happen at some point. But likely not any time soon.

Makaber
09-01-2014, 00:15
Well, that could still happen at some point. But likely not any time soon.

Yeah, sorry, I should have been clearer. I meant in the very near future, sort of like they did with the Dark Elves. If there was a new Codex entry for something we could assume was an alternate build for, say, Zoanthropes, we'd know they had something in the pipeline. This just leaves it very ... vague.

Wiseman
09-01-2014, 00:49
I'm excited overall by the new nids, the more i hear the better it gets, venomthropes giving shrouded bubble out to units could be great, as they can hide behind a trio of carnifex who in turn have a shield of gargoyles in front of them, boosting it to a 3+ cover save, surely that will make them survivable. Warriors in ruins with a hidden thrope gaining a 2+ cover save, i'd take that as sufficient resilience against Krak missiles and Lascannons.

Zoanthropes, win big lose big with them, still getting a second power on top of Warp Blast, means they give another chance of catalyst, or even dominion (which im sure will have some uses).

Lictors, I think these will see use in armies that are using Mawlocs, just to make sure that they hit where you want them to.

Pyrovores, its a shame i still dont have an excuse to field one, as i love their models.

Hormagaunts +3" to run moves, sure they can't charge after running ,but it means that on a turn they dont charge, they will be covering 10-15".

Termagants, same profile but cheaper, I'll be running at least one big unit of 30 of these.

Carnifex, I can live with their points costs, running them with just Frag Spines should work alright. .

Genestealers, may make room for a small unit of these, to hit a unit after they suffer a wall of Hormagaunts to the face.

Rippers, no idea why they got the price rise, i guess they aren't guaranteed to eat themselves anymore, with no parasite (hopefully one day they bring out a dataslate for him) though I dont think I'll be fielding these guys

The Heavy support choices will be a tough one to decide between, carnifex are cheap enough to be viable, mawlocs will now have to target units without invulnerable saves, or multi wounds, but should decimate them. Exocrine is the ranged solution to light vehicles and terminators we've been chasing for a long time.


Harpy's sonic screech onto a unit in cover will then make charging them strike at the same time, so stealers will still get their attacks in. Gargoyles blinding venom (with their decent I4) will be a good way to make sure that your lower I monsterous start hitting units on 3's (gargoyles also look like they will be good to hit enemy shooting units, riptides aren't quit as scary when they're only Bs 1).


I can see my list being something along the lines of



Hive Tyrant
3 Tyrant Guard

2 Zoanthropes
2 Venomthropes

25 Hormagaunts
25 Hormagaunts
25 Hormagaunts
25 Hormagaunts

Crone
Harpy

Mawloc
3 Carnifex

rpricew
09-01-2014, 03:03
I thought it did… maybe I am wrong though. Doesn't the eldar codex have it on their powers page?

yes, the Eldar codex clearly gives permission to use the BRB psychic disciplines. It then goes on to say you may also take them from Codex: Eldar. {paraphrased}

zuriel45
09-01-2014, 11:29
I'm excited overall by the new nids, the more i hear the better it gets, venomthropes giving shrouded bubble out to units could be great, as they can hide behind a trio of carnifex who in turn have a shield of gargoyles in front of them, boosting it to a 3+ cover save, surely that will make them survivable. Warriors in ruins with a hidden thrope gaining a 2+ cover save, i'd take that as sufficient resilience against Krak missiles and Lascannons.

Zoanthropes, win big lose big with them, still getting a second power on top of Warp Blast, means they give another chance of catalyst, or even dominion (which im sure will have some uses).

Lictors, I think these will see use in armies that are using Mawlocs, just to make sure that they hit where you want them to.

Pyrovores, its a shame i still dont have an excuse to field one, as i love their models.

Hormagaunts +3" to run moves, sure they can't charge after running ,but it means that on a turn they dont charge, they will be covering 10-15".

Termagants, same profile but cheaper, I'll be running at least one big unit of 30 of these.

Carnifex, I can live with their points costs, running them with just Frag Spines should work alright. .

Genestealers, may make room for a small unit of these, to hit a unit after they suffer a wall of Hormagaunts to the face.

Rippers, no idea why they got the price rise, i guess they aren't guaranteed to eat themselves anymore, with no parasite (hopefully one day they bring out a dataslate for him) though I dont think I'll be fielding these guys

The Heavy support choices will be a tough one to decide between, carnifex are cheap enough to be viable, mawlocs will now have to target units without invulnerable saves, or multi wounds, but should decimate them. Exocrine is the ranged solution to light vehicles and terminators we've been chasing for a long time.


Harpy's sonic screech onto a unit in cover will then make charging them strike at the same time, so stealers will still get their attacks in. Gargoyles blinding venom (with their decent I4) will be a good way to make sure that your lower I monsterous start hitting units on 3's (gargoyles also look like they will be good to hit enemy shooting units, riptides aren't quit as scary when they're only Bs 1).


I can see my list being something along the lines of



Hive Tyrant
3 Tyrant Guard

2 Zoanthropes
2 Venomthropes

25 Hormagaunts
25 Hormagaunts
25 Hormagaunts
25 Hormagaunts

Crone
Harpy

Mawloc
3 Carnifex

Interesting melee based army, it'd be nice to see one in nids, but i'd like to point out that zoanthropes look to be INSANELY good. They have auto access to the warp blast (s8/ap4 blast or s10/ap2 lance) power, which can be cast as assault x where x is the number of zoanthropes in the unit. With a 3++ and at a rumour 50 points each they're going to be good, and probably worth it as units of 3.

edit: since you haven't filled elites i'd say split the venoms, just to allow them to cover a bit more of the army in their cloud.

itcamefromthedeep
09-01-2014, 12:51
Tau bring markerlights that ignore cover saves.

Eldar bring serpent shields, ignoring cover saves.

Space Marines like Thunderfires these days, which can airburst past cover saves.

All the hot armies bring tools to quickly and efficiently remove Venomthropes from the table. They're good, but they will be least useful in the games where you need them the most.

Plague Lord
09-01-2014, 15:25
Tau bring markerlights that ignore cover saves.

Eldar bring serpent shields, ignoring cover saves.

Space Marines like Thunderfires these days, which can airburst past cover saves.

All the hot armies bring tools to quickly and efficiently remove Venomthropes from the table. They're good, but they will be least useful in the games where you need them the most.

So all those tau markerlights are targetting the 50(?) point venomthrope instead of other stuff? OK me likey...

Anyway I'm a bit worried about the crone. I want to take it but my tau mate has skyfiring broadsides. I don't think it will live past the turn it enters...

Voss
09-01-2014, 17:58
So all those tau markerlights are targetting the 50(?) point venomthrope instead of other stuff? OK me likey...

Anyway I'm a bit worried about the crone. I want to take it but my tau mate has skyfiring broadsides. I don't think it will live past the turn it enters...
The Crone is weird. A non-torrent template, 4 one shot haywire missiles (S5 base), bonus to vector strikes (apparently, not 100% on this), and the option to add Cluster Spines (a good anti-infantry large blast).
The save is the big problem, really. 5W are nice, but it is vulnerable to everything people can sky fire. Its only option is to dive and leave the table next turn, and that doesn't even work against everything.
On the other talon, it is the only sky fire source in the codex (but only the tentaclids, since the drool cannon obviously can't).



Tau bring markerlights that ignore cover saves.

Eldar bring serpent shields, ignoring cover saves.

Space Marines like Thunderfires these days, which can airburst past cover saves.

All the hot armies bring tools to quickly and efficiently remove Venomthropes from the table. They're good, but they will be least useful in the games where you need them the most.
Yeah, I think GW over-reacted to the excessive cover saves of 5th edition. They dialed back the save AND gave every sixth edition army at least one way of saying 'Cover? Nope!'
The venomthrope is an interesting idea, but in practice, I don't think it will do much- against some armies it might give a turn of protection, but not much more.
I don't think cautious advance tactics will benefit the swarm all that much. Silly things like dropping spore mine clusters (price dropped by half!) on pathfinders, warriors and marker drones will probably help a lot more.

Plague Lord
09-01-2014, 18:06
The Crone is weird. A non-torrent template, 4 one shot haywire missiles (S5 base), bonus to vector strikes (apparently, not 100% on this), and the option to add Cluster Spines (a good anti-infantry large blast).
The save is the big problem, really. 5W are nice, but it is vulnerable to everything people can sky fire. Its only option is to dive and leave the table next turn, and that doesn't even work against everything.
On the other talon, it is the only sky fire source in the codex (but only the tentaclids, since the drool cannon obviously can't).



Yeah, I think GW over-reacted to the excessive cover saves of 5th edition. They dialed back the save AND gave every sixth edition army at least one way of saying 'Cover? Nope!'
The venomthrope is an interesting idea, but in practice, I don't think it will do much- against some armies it might give a turn of protection, but not much more.
I don't think cautious advance tactics will benefit the swarm all that much. Silly things like dropping spore mine clusters (price dropped by half!) on pathfinders, warriors and marker drones will probably help a lot more.

The vector strike on the crone is str8. That's pretty good agaoinst both vechicles and flyers tbh. It's also pretty cheap so maybe it can make up for that. The harpy seems bad. 2 regular venom cannons don't do much but I'll wait till I see the rules (also it go cheaper so that's not half bad)

As for the ignores cover stuff - dark angels didn't get anything IIRC. And CSM got well the baledrake and hmmm let's say the brand...

it's weird no one is talking about biovores - considered as one of the best units in the 5th ed dex actually got cheaper now without a nerf!! And as we know there are different types of spore mines now. Did the biovores get any new good stuff?

Voss
09-01-2014, 19:18
The vector strike on the crone is str8. That's pretty good agaoinst both vechicles and flyers tbh. It's also pretty cheap so maybe it can make up for that. The harpy seems bad. 2 regular venom cannons don't do much but I'll wait till I see the rules (also it go cheaper so that's not half bad)
It isn't two venom cannons. It is a twin-linked strangle thorn that can be switched for a twin-linked heavy venom cannon at a slight point cost. And can also buy a stinger salvo or cluster spine


As for the ignores cover stuff - dark angels didn't get anything IIRC.
I thought there was something (beyond the whirlwinds), but I guess not. Ah well.


it's weird no one is talking about biovores - considered as one of the best units in the 5th ed dex actually got cheaper now without a nerf!! And as we know there are different types of spore mines now. Did the biovores get any new good stuff?
Biovores definitely seem worth considering; not quite sure what the spore explusion/explosion rule does on the launcher, but that seems to be the only change other than the price drop.
Haven't heard _anything_ about different spore mine types (which would be an interesting return to the past). Their special rules are 'living bomb', deep strike, fearless, and something about floating.

Nubl0
09-01-2014, 19:24
waaaaaaaaaaaaait a second, did they really nerf raverners? They werent any good to begin with, but I still liked fielding nine because of how awesome the models are, I could do with them not actually getting worse haha.

airmang
09-01-2014, 21:06
waaaaaaaaaaaaait a second, did they really nerf raverners? They werent any good to begin with, but I still liked fielding nine because of how awesome the models are, I could do with them not actually getting worse haha.


The nerf to Raveners is that they don't reroll to hit anymore with Scytals. Besides that they're the same a previous ed.

pantsukki
09-01-2014, 21:06
As for the ignores cover stuff - dark angels didn't get anything IIRC. And CSM got well the baledrake and hmmm let's say the brand...


Haven't heard of Blastmasters, have you?

Voss
09-01-2014, 22:10
The nerf to Raveners is that they don't reroll to hit anymore with Scytals. Besides that they're the same a previous ed.
Too be fair, that is pretty big. A min unit went from 13.333 hits on the charge to 10 hits on the charge (vs ws 4), with no change in cost. Granted the spine fist option costs less, but they also lost a shot from those due to a lower base attack (raised back by 2 pair of CCWs). Shrikes are the same cost, have more options, have equal attacks, and can have flesh hooks, adrenals, and/or toxin sacs as well, which makes them far superior as fast assault troops. Plus, well, synapse and shadow.
If raveners had gotten even a minor point reduction (like much of the book), I could still see taking them, but the loss of rerolls hits them pretty hard.

Its one of those facepalm moments for internal balance, because the two unit entries are stacked one on top of the other, have the same cost and one is strictly better than the other.

Draconis
10-01-2014, 22:05
My friend preordered the book and it says he can download it today but it's not letting him. Anyone else download it yet?

3eland
10-01-2014, 22:11
Cannot be downloaded until the 11th, so in about 2 hours

MasterDecoy
10-01-2014, 22:57
Technically it's the 11 th in Australia. But we always Getty shafted

Sent from my GT-I9507 using Tapatalk

3eland
10-01-2014, 23:02
I meant the 11th for GW main office lol. But I agree, you guys always get the shaft.

3eland
11-01-2014, 00:02
Let your virtual downloads commence!!!

Asdrubael108
11-01-2014, 18:39
Things I am unhappy about:
Raveners nerfed to hell
No changes to the useless subterrain assault
No genestealer change
No warrior change (really it takes just 1 turn of riptide shootng to take a whole squad of the board)


How you mean raveners nerfed to hell??? You mean they lost re-rolls of one's (wich is fluff unrealitic), and gained an extra attack, what's your problem?

Archibald_TK
11-01-2014, 20:17
How you mean raveners nerfed to hell??? You mean they lost re-rolls of one's (wich is fluff unrealitic), and gained an extra attack, what's your problem?
They did not gain any additional attack (-1 in the profile +1 for weapons = 0) but lost their rerolls on all of their missed attacks when going full Talons, or rerolls of ones with Rending Claws. It is also no longer viable to let them operate outside of synapse. They have been nerfed, not to hell but enough to be totally outshined by Shrikes.