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View Full Version : So if the Guilliman and the UM are Rome, who is Horus and Sons'?



Luxem
05-01-2014, 16:10
Just wondering, it's pretty clear the UM seem to take from the Roman Empire. Which would you say the Luna Wolves/Sons of Horus take?

Marshal_Loss
05-01-2014, 17:36
I'm pretty sure there have been a few threads about this before popping up in this very forum: the answer is that it's a bizarre mix of Greek (Cthonic planet name, coins on eyes in HH Betrayal etc) Roman (pteruges, some of their rank names etc) Egyptian (Horus, Serpent Symbols etc) and a whole lot of generic Barbarian influences all thrown together (casting skulls in gold, trophy weapons etc). Unlike the Ultramarines they don't draw the vast majority of their real-life influences from any one specific culture.

Fangschrecken
05-01-2014, 17:58
As was discussed in another thread, the Luna Wolves/Sons of Horus are really just generic post apocalyptic techno barbarians circa 1980s, but with Egyptian flair in the whole Horus and Eye of Horus thing. They also deal with secret societies and end of the world style damnation (Abaddon). They've never had a clear cultural origin like some other legions.

Dark Angels - Knightly Orders, but by 40K gain some Native American flair
Second Legion - ?
Emperors Children - ?
Iron Warriors - clear Greek influence
White Scars - nomadic steppe peoples, specifically Mongols
Space Wolves - Vikings/Norse
Imperial Fists - Here we see more roman influence, but I can also see some American pig headedness
Night Lords - They seem like a legion of Batman villians and their henchmen, but with obvious nods towards Heart of Darkness (Kurtz) and a sort of nihilism
Blood Angels - They're irradiated techno-barbarians who are raised to be Angels. I don't see a specific culture here but I see a lot of self doubt and the capability of angels to fall from grace
Iron Hands - Never saw it in any of their names, but I always got a German vibe from them.
Eleventh Legion - who knows
World Eaters - gladiators. Not much else really. What ever they had before the butcher's nails is gone.
Ultramarines - Romans through and through
Death Guard -
Thousand Sons - Egyptians but not because of original culture, but from their secret societies. People playing at being Egyptian because they think it adds significance.
Sons of Horus - Techno-barbarians with Egyptian and end of the world flair
Word Bearers - Monks. Not a specific kind.
Salamanders - Not sure. They almost feel like the most primitive of the legions. At least culturally.
Raven Guard - Birds, sadly.
Alpha Legions - ?


More than you were asking, but I got thinking about all the legions and felt like typing it out.

Walls
05-01-2014, 18:41
Raven Guard have heavy native American influences.

Sons of Horus seem almost like Gauls. The whole sacking of Rome (Emperor looks like a Caesar if you ask me and there are TONS of Roman influences throughout the Imperial worlds and forces) and the wolf pelt look make sense to me.

Death Guard seem like they were created as such so it made sense for them to turn to Nurgle.

Emperors Legion are definitely the whole Romans turn to decadence deal.

Nazguire
05-01-2014, 20:44
Salamanders I don't think have any one culture that they borrow from. There is a bit of African in them with their names and shamanism, but that isn't solely African. Then there is the obvious Greek god of the Forge thing that is prevalent throughout their Legion/Chapter.

I always thought Victorian England would have been a great fit for the Raven Guard.

The Emperor
05-01-2014, 20:49
Blood Angels - They're irradiated techno-barbarians who are raised to be Angels. I don't see a specific culture here but I see a lot of self doubt and the capability of angels to fall from grace

Nah, they're Florentines/Renaissance Italians with vampire mythology overlaid over that.

Nazguire
05-01-2014, 21:04
Nah, they're Florentines/Renaissance Italians with vampire mythology overlaid over that.

Thats what I thought. You very rarely read in any of their background about any of their techno-barbarian pre-Blood Angel coming through: which is the point I suppose. Sanguinius' gene seed changes the ugly into the beautiful.

Tim_Ward
05-01-2014, 21:47
Imperial Fists - Here we see more roman influence, but I can also see some American pig headedness

19th Century Prussia.

OrganicHamster
05-01-2014, 22:42
Nah, they're Florentines/Renaissance Italians with vampire mythology overlaid over that.

They're based on Anne Rice novels? *checks for pretty, blonde heroes* Apparently so.

Hengist
05-01-2014, 22:43
Just wondering, it's pretty clear the UM seem to take from the Roman Empire. Which would you say the Luna Wolves/Sons of Horus take?

The Ultramarines' background is a fine example of one might call Ancient Grome (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/AncientGrome).


Raven Guard have heavy native American influences.

Not really convinced by this, unless I've missed something. Corax's story is pretty much a retelling of Heinlein's The Moon is a Harsh Mistress, however.


Death Guard seem like they were created as such so it made sense for them to turn to Nurgle.

Given that the Death Guard's pre-Heresy background was written long after the 40k Nurge-worshipping Death Guard were established, this is indeed what happens when your background gets written in reverse.

I'll add that the Thousand Sons background also features a few Persian and Mayan motifs alongside the obvious Egyptian ones; more than anything I'd say they are drawn from the general mish-mash of 19th century occultism. The Sons of Horus are oddballs, I'm inclined to think of them as a self-referential callback to Rogue Trader's Space Marines; Loken excepted they really are basically just genetically enhanced criminal killers.

cyberspite
05-01-2014, 23:13
The death guard, at least their original aesthetic with the spiked helmets, reminded me of WW1 Germans, particularly with the whole 'trench warfare' thing.

I don't know what their earlier background was like, but the iron hands seem quite Roman / Greek / classical. Maybe it's just the new Ferrus model from FW, but the head looks very Roman to me.

Also, ever since the Kurze / assassin story I always associated the night lords more with Vietnam and Apocalypse Now, with Kurze being Marlon Brando of course.

Walls
05-01-2014, 23:49
Great point on the WW1 German aesthetic for Death Guard. Really makes a ton of sense.

Raven Guard's look just seems native to me. Bones and feathers and such.

agurus1
06-01-2014, 03:16
With the Iron Warriors in addition to Greece I sense a definite use of Ottomans in their siege expertise and penchant for complete overwhelming force as well as naming conventions.

Nazguire
06-01-2014, 03:44
With the Iron Warriors in addition to Greece I sense a definite use of Ottomans in their siege expertise and penchant for complete overwhelming force as well as naming conventions.

Good spot with the Ottomans! Never would have clicked those two together.

agurus1
06-01-2014, 04:28
Good spot with the Ottomans! Never would have clicked those two together.

thanks, I read a lot of history books. I mean the Ottomans at their height of course, Vienna, Siege of Rhodes than kind of stuff. The passages in Storm of Iron when Forrix is organizing the massive landing and all of the detail in how they construct and implement sieges and the baggage train and all that just makes sense when compared to how the Ottomans worked during their greatest military period.

insectum7
06-01-2014, 06:28
The Ultramarines' background is a fine example of one might call Ancient Grome (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/AncientGrome).


Certainly some Greek in there, and in the fourth ed' codex specifically Sparta is called out with an homage to "Come back with your shield or on it." Don't have the exact passage with me right now though.

Sandlemad
06-01-2014, 07:28
The Sons of Horus are oddballs, I'm inclined to think of them as a self-referential callback to Rogue Trader's Space Marines; Loken excepted they really are basically just genetically enhanced criminal killers.

I really like this reading of them, never picked up on it and it's wonderfully fitting for the most prominent legion in the heresy.

The Word Bearers also have a streak of ancient Near East in them, as seen in the culture and environment of Colchis, their naming conventions and their deep interest in astrology (see the chapter names and armorial decoration on the FW models).

The Iron Hands used to appear to have a very slight Scottish tinge to their background, especially in names, but perhaps apart from some emphasis on raiding and reaving on Medusa, there's not much there in more recent stuff.

The Emperor's Children also pull from the graeco-roman grab-bag but there's also a sizeable trend of 18th century military aristocracy in them, all Clausewitz and Napoleon.

=Angel=
06-01-2014, 10:30
I would have said their imagery was pulled from heavy metal album covers. That's their 'theme' especially after the fall to chaos

SpanielBear
06-01-2014, 10:33
Another thing to add about the Emperors Children is that, given a) their Primarch is often referred to as 'the Phoenician' and b) they are almost the antithesis of Ultramarines (decadence instead of duty, personal achievement instead of conforming to tradition etc), I'd go so far as to call them space Carthaginians.

Tymell
06-01-2014, 10:35
Since it might also be relevant to this topic, the Forge World books give us indications of where a legion's original (Terran) recruits were drawn from:

Death Guard, and Iron Hands to a lesser degree - Old Albia
Emperor's Children - Europa (specifically children of the nobility)
World Eaters - Mixed
Luna Wolves - Jutigran Bowl & Samsatian slums
Night Lords - prisons
Space Wolves, Salamanders, Alpha Legion - unknown, kept hidden

TheDungen
06-01-2014, 13:07
None of these are pure cultures, and the reason for that is that they came from our culture today and then have re-eccentrified towards these cultural traits in the years of separation. If we can't keep rome and greece apart today roughly 1-2.5k years later how well are the people in 28k years going to do?

What's why the space wolfs are so ovious hollywood vikings cause the bastardised version of the mythology is likely the only version anyone remember by then.

Hengist
06-01-2014, 14:01
Also, ever since the Kurze / assassin story I always associated the night lords more with Vietnam and Apocalypse Now, with Kurze being Marlon Brando of course.

With Crusade-era Kurze as the hip, dangerous Brando of The Wild One, and post-Heresy Kurze as the fat, incomprehensible Brando of Apocalypse Now.


I really like this reading of them, never picked up on it and it's wonderfully
fitting for the most prominent legion in the heresy.

I'm glad you like the idea!


The Word Bearers also have a streak of ancient Near East in them, as seen in the culture and environment of Colchis, their naming conventions and their deep interest in astrology (see the chapter names and armorial decoration on the FW models).

The Word Bearers embodying, even before the Heresy, the cultures of the ancient Near East, and being somewhat 'other' to the vaguely neo-Classical Imperium is also a good parallel to the ancient Greeks' view of the Persians, Phoenecians, Egyptians and other easterners as superstitious and faintly barbarous.

JOBusse
09-01-2014, 13:13
I've recently associated the Word Bearers with Mesopotamia, more from the contemporary Christian idea of what Babylon represents.

Of course, I also kind of see the whole damn imperium as Rome/Greece with the Eldar being kind of Persian and the Necrons being Egyptian. Kind of a timeline of great civilizations...

RunepriestRidcully
10-01-2014, 19:47
The Thousand sons and Word bearers seem to be in a tug of war over the whole near east, with the former having a dash of Victorian and Edwardian in them, both Occultisim and sure beleif in that their new methods would solve all problems is similar in which some thought the electricity could do anything, and that the march of industrialization would secure a better future and further progress (which got popped by the Titanic and first world war). Word bearers do seem to have a heavy dose of the Catholic church though.
The Great crusade ere Imperium as a whole seems to have a Neo Assyrian feel to it, in regards to it's desire for conquest, it's speed of success and arguably they way it came crashing down.

kafrique
11-01-2014, 21:22
The Thousand sons and Word bearers seem to be in a tug of war over the whole near east, with the former having a dash of Victorian and Edwardian in them, both Occultisim and sure beleif in that their new methods would solve all problems is similar in which some thought the electricity could do anything, and that the march of industrialization would secure a better future and further progress (which got popped by the Titanic and first world war). Word bearers do seem to have a heavy dose of the Catholic church though.
The Great crusade ere Imperium as a whole seems to have a Neo Assyrian feel to it, in regards to it's desire for conquest, it's speed of success and arguably they way it came crashing down.

The impression I get is that the Word Bearers were raised with their mysticism/occultism while the Sons come from a more logically-focused culture that has consciously adopted the trappings of sorcery.

Inquisitor Engel
11-01-2014, 23:07
The Word Bearers are very Zoroastrian in many respects, or perhaps Sumerian to a degree.

AndrewGPaul
12-01-2014, 00:12
"Horus and Sons'" sounds like a firm of Egyptian ironmongers. :)

Fangschrecken
14-01-2014, 03:43
Ironmongers being people who sell iron or some reference to the Iron-Man villain?

Polaria
14-01-2014, 06:21
I'm pretty sure there have been a few threads about this before popping up in this very forum: the answer is that it's a bizarre mix of Greek (Cthonic planet name, coins on eyes in HH Betrayal etc) Roman (pteruges, some of their rank names etc) Egyptian (Horus, Serpent Symbols etc).

Which would put them right in with Ptolemaic Kingdom. With all the tech-barbarian stuff thrown in I'd call them Post-Apocalyptic Ptolemaic Kingdom ;)



Raven Guard - Birds, sadly.


I always thought Victorian England would have been a great fit for the Raven Guard.

The Raven Guard actually do have a historical reference point, though it is very obscure: Black Army of Hungary (1458–1494 AD). The similarities are:

- Similar name of leader (Black Army, Matthias Corvinus and Raven Guard, Corvus Corax).
- Both leaders became leaders due to popular rebellion (Matthias Corvinus was elected a king after uprising against Habsburgs, Corvus Corax overthrew the old masters of Deliverance).
- Both use full black armour.
- Also worth noting: One of 2nd founding successors of Raven Guard is "Black Guard".

Not enough to say that "Raven Guard are medieval Hungarians", but enough to say that there is a strong chance some inspiration for them was drawn from Black Army. Also, there is some similarity with the faces:

http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20110318164151/warhammer40k/images/f/fd/Deliverance-lost-2_-_Primarch_Corax.jpg
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Matthias_contemporary_Sculpture.jpg

Loginis
17-01-2014, 21:54
To add something to the Raven Guard-Black Army connections: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Army_of_Hungary#Dissolution_of_the_Black_Arm y


The Black Army was sent to the south region to fight the Ottoman invasions. While waiting for their wages, they sought plunder in the nearby villages. The National Council ordered Paul Kinizsi to stop the plundering at all costs. He arrived in Szegednic-Halászfalu in late August 1492, where he dispersed the Black Army led by Haugwitz.



They were so frustrated about their financial status that they even blackguardly allied with Ottoman Mihaloğlu Ali Bey (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mihalo%C4%9Flu_Ali_Bey) to handle secretly the fort to his Sultan, Bayezid II (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bayezid_II). When their plan surfaced, Paul Kinizsi intervened in May 1494 before their act could take place. He arrested the captain and his crew for treason and famished them to death.

One could say that parts of the army became monsters who had to be put down by their own leader after a somehow catastrophic chain of events...

2580
18-01-2014, 07:25
the wolf is the Odin and the salamander must be the Thor. fulgrim and the iron hand is a pair of broke back mountain cow boy just like the lion and his luther .

Kebert Xela
30-01-2014, 17:09
you forgot sanguinius and Horus

RunepriestRidcully
31-01-2014, 13:54
the wolf is the Odin and the salamander must be the Thor. fulgrim and the iron hand is a pair of broke back mountain cow boy just like the lion and his luther .

Or the lion and Russ :P

Haskear
01-03-2014, 14:45
Blood angels- Renaissance Italy

Nixon28/02
01-03-2014, 19:19
I'd argue the Imperium reminds me more of the British Empire rather than Greco Roman. I would say that the Thousand Sons look fairly Egyptian, not just with the colours but the buildings on Prospero are pyramids if I remember rightly too