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View Full Version : Who do you believe: The Unforgiven or the Fallen?



Barun Von Krump
05-01-2014, 19:34
I am currently assembling a Fallen Angels formation with Cypher and the chosen so I decided to dive into the fluff a bit. The story is very interesting however I find the Dark Angels version to be a little sketchy. Reading up on the Fallen's recount, their story seems more consistent. I'm going to ride with the Fallen on this. It feels like the Dark Angels are hiding something.

harlokin
05-01-2014, 20:21
You are obviously free to believe it if you enjoy it, and good luck if it inspires your army list.

If you are asking about 40K canon, The Lion and the Dark Angels were loyal to The Emperor, and Luther was a pawn of the Ruinous Powers.

Hendarion
06-01-2014, 05:25
The Horus Heresy series on them makes it pretty clear who is who.

Silversage
06-01-2014, 11:24
It feels like the Dark Angels are hiding something.

That's... wow. I couldn't do anything but stare at that speechless for a good long while. Then I burst into laughter :D That's like saying "it feels like the World Eaters are somewhat angry" or "I dunno but I think The Black Legion dislikes the Imperium".

Vexare
06-01-2014, 12:23
Well they are hiding something. At the very least they are hiding the fallen...

TheDungen
06-01-2014, 12:34
Yeah what the dark angels are hiding is pretty obvious the question is what the Fallen are hiding. The Lion was loyal and Luther was a traitor of course we've been told that black on white, but I think it's more complicated than that. And I don't think the dark angels know exactly what went down that fateful day on Caliban and the fallen arent interested in telling.

My theory is that in order to save the lion the lord cypher allowed him to transfer his soul into his body, and that that is what is transferred from each lord cypher to the next one (providing they are not the same).

LexxBomb
06-01-2014, 12:49
I think Luthor became possessed by chaos but that doesnt mean his followers were...Heck we know that some if not most/all of them were loyal to the Emperor, just not to Johnson... see Chapter Commander Astelan

Telemachus
06-01-2014, 13:03
You know, I love this argument, and it always comes down to the same thing; we're only part way through the story in the HH books.

Once we get to the end, then I reckon that's when we'll find out whether or not Astelan was telling the truth. ;)

Until then? The Lion is loyal... :shifty:

m1acca1551
06-01-2014, 13:12
I think of the fallen as being loyalists who were honestly deceived by Luther who in turn was deceived by chaos, one of those tragic little instances in a galaxy where those who were once loyal have had little to no choice, die to prove your loyalty exist without purpose or to join the very forces that destroyed your world and your way of life.

As for the DA I've always liked the Lion but as for the chapter... Not so much, to anti imperium, doesn't play well with others can be very annoying. Plus in a galaxy and era that even suspicion can constitute enough for summary execution they role around blowing up other chapters stuff and inquisitors with no consequence.

The story and the actions taken by the DA smack of desperation, they obviously want to atone for the actions of the fallen but many chapters have taken the option of crusade and then became exonerated, this secrecy and desperation forces me to believe that all is not as it seems and that there really is a horrible truth that has been hidden.

Perhaps the fallen were right, maybe the Lion was going to switch sides at the last moment, but when Horus was destroyed and the traitors sent running as the cowards they are, the DA decided that they had to hide there traitorous decision.

LexxBomb
06-01-2014, 13:53
oh I think Johnson was also loyal... I think the only real traitor at that time was Luthor... heck after the HH only 1 single Fallen Angel has become a demon prince... I would think that speaks highly of loyalty they had...
oh and i like the new lore that shows Cypher returning the Sword of Secrets and The Lion Helm a the end of the Forgotten War

Harwammer
06-01-2014, 13:53
in a galaxy and era that even suspicion can constitute enough for summary execution they role around blowing up other chapters stuff and inquisitors with no consequence.

The public face of the DA is famous for their incredible devotion for the imperium. Clearly the so called 'victims' of them blowing up inquisitors and other chapters' stuff is because the Dark Angels are suspicious enough of these forces to constitute reason for a summary execution ;)!

I think many of the Fallen did believe that Lion was the real traitor, but that is their in-universe view; reading the viewpoint of the 'infallible narrator' we know Lion was indeed loyal to The Imperium, but perhaps when the HH is expanded we may see this loyalty was only due to the scattering of traitor forces on Terra.

harlokin
06-01-2014, 14:37
but perhaps when the HH is expanded we may see this loyalty was only due to the scattering of traitor forces on Terra.

Except that, in Savage Weapons, The Lion is given the opportunity to join Horus prior to the Traitor attack on Terra, and he responds by kebabbing Mr Curze.

The statement by the Lion that

"I do not care who knows the truth now, tomorrow, or in ten thousand years. Loyalty is its own reward"
likewise doesn't leave much wriggle room as to his motivations

=Angel=
06-01-2014, 16:28
What a guy says leaves plenty of wriggle room as to intentions.
We're right behind you! Said wave 2 on istvaan.

Harwammer
06-01-2014, 16:32
Oh that's juicy, thanks harlokin :D

Silversage
06-01-2014, 18:51
That line in combination with the fact that the Lion did indeed proceed to make a new breathing hole for Kurze with his sword and started hammering his legion as a whole kind of puts an end to any and all wriggle room in that regard. Plus they went to Terra along with the Space Wolves and the Ultramarines who wouldn't have turned against the Emperor no matter what (Guilliman's Imperium Secundus aside), so joining up with them and then announcing "Hey fellas I think I'm gonna party with Horus after all, ok?" would've been less than sound tactical thinking from one of the best military commanders the universe has ever known.

bound for glory
06-01-2014, 19:47
I think Luthor became possessed by chaos but that doesnt mean his followers were...Heck we know that some if not most/all of them were loyal to the Emperor, just not to Johnson... see Chapter Commander Astelan

we need more on astelan! he rules!

MajorWesJanson
06-01-2014, 20:20
Regardless of declarations of loyalty, the Dark Angels and Johnson do tend to put their own interests before their duty to the Emperor/Imperium

=Angel=
06-01-2014, 20:35
That line in combination with the fact that the Lion did indeed proceed to make a new breathing hole for Kurze with his sword and started hammering his legion as a whole kind of puts an end to any and all wriggle room in that regard. Plus they went to Terra along with the Space Wolves and the Ultramarines who wouldn't have turned against the Emperor no matter what (Guilliman's Imperium Secundus aside), so joining up with them and then announcing "Hey fellas I think I'm gonna party with Horus after all, ok?" would've been less than sound tactical thinking from one of the best military commanders the universe has ever known.

It does leave room.Of course you fight Kurze, Kurze is a jerk. Fighting a Chaos Primarch doesnt mean that he was going to stay on the side of the angels, if you'll excuse the pun.
He makes a very bold declaration of loyalty which rejects Kurze's taunting - its the effect of the old rubber glue saying.

His words do not come from an omniscient author. They were something he said- something that teamkilling dastardly secret keeping primarch said.
I reckon he was a loyalist- I think that's where this is heading.
But there's absolutely room for interpretation here.

cyberspite
06-01-2014, 22:25
I don't think the lion had any great love for the imperium, but was loyal to the emperor on a personal level, as someone he respected. Maybe the only person he respects. But even if he did turn traitor he certainly wouldn't have done it under the command of horus.

bittick
06-01-2014, 22:38
The Lion was a prick, but he was loyal.

Nkari
07-01-2014, 08:18
Considering that Caliban is a world TAINTED permanently(in its core it seems a Daemonprince or worse is locked in by the watchers in the dark) by chaos, and the "fallen" wanted to leave the imperium so that they would not get virusbombed killing everything on the planet, and they(as dark angels not only fallen) deal with warp/xenos creatures wich manipulate them for humanitys benefit/downfall including helping them hunt the night lords later in the heresy.

Basicly, we do not know who was the loyal one and who was not, but by all indications its the lion that was loyal and the fallen who was not loyal.

Nkari
07-01-2014, 08:25
Considering that Caliban is a world TAINTED permanently(in its core it seems a Daemonprince or worse is locked in by the watchers in the dark) by chaos, and the "fallen" wanted to leave the imperium so that they would not get virusbombed killing everything on the planet, and they(as dark angels not only fallen) deal with warp/xenos creatures wich manipulate them for humanitys benefit/downfall including helping them hunt the night lords later in the heresy.

Basicly, we do not know who was the loyal one and who was not, but by all indications its the lion that was loyal and the fallen who was not loyal.

Telemachus
07-01-2014, 08:43
...But there's absolutely room for interpretation here. And that's the point in a nutshell.

We're part way through the HH series and we don't know what the eventual outcome will be. At the moment the Lion is the Loyal son, but in novels to come?

Here's what the Black Library (http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?105252-Black-Library-is-not-quot-canon-quot) had to say for themselves -

Here's our standard line: Yes it's all official, but remember that we're reporting back from a time where stories aren't always true, or at least 100% accurate. if it has the 40K logo on it, it exists in the 40k universe. Or it was a legend that may well have happened. Or a rumour that may or may not have any truth behind it.

Let's put it another way: anything with a 40K logo on it is as official as any Codex... and at least as crammed full of rumours, distorted legends and half-truths.

Marc Gascoigne
Publisher, The Black Library and Black Flame

I think the real problem for me, and I speak for no other, is that the topic as a "big question" doesn't matter. It's all as true as everything else, and all just as false/half-remembered/sort-of-true. The answer you are seeking is "Yes and no" or perhaps "Sometimes". And for me, that's the end of it.

Now, ask us some specifics, eg can Black Templars spit acid and we can answer that one, and many others. But again note that answer may well be "sometimes" or "it varies" or "depends".

But is it all true? Yes and no. Even though some of it is plainly contradictory? Yes and no. Do we deliberately contradict, retell with differences? Yes we do. Is the newer the stuff the truer it is? Yes and no. In some cases is it true that the older stuff is the truest? Yes and no. Maybe and sometimes. Depends and it varies.

It's a decaying universe without GPS and galaxy-wide communication, where precious facts are clung to long after they have been changed out of all recognition. Read A Canticle for Liebowitz by Walter M Miller, about monks toiling to hold onto facts in the aftermath of a nuclear war; that nails it for me.

Sorry, too much splurge here. Not meant to sound stroppy.

To attempt answer the initial question: What is GW's definition of canon? Perhaps we don't have one. Sometimes and maybe. Or perhaps we do and I'm not telling you.

And from George Mann (http://1d4chan.org/wiki/Black_Library) -

...After pressing him further, he explained that only the Studio material (rulebooks, codexes, army books and suchlike) was canonical in that it HAD to be adhered-to in the plots and background of the novels. There was no obligation on authors to adhere to facts and events as spelled out in Black Library work.
In other words folks, the Fallen's version of events is as valid and true as the Unforgiven's.


...Plus they went to Terra along with the Space Wolves and the Ultramarines who wouldn't have turned against the Emperor no matter... Were those not the three legions who couldn't get to Terra in time?

the_yuk
07-01-2014, 11:15
The lion was fanatically loyal to the emperor. In one of the HH short stories he is talking to his bodyguard/ companion and pretty much states only the emperor can rule and he would be willing to fight any one who tried to take his place, loyalist or traitor.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk (http://tapatalk.com/m?id=1)

Harwammer
07-01-2014, 11:18
The lion was fanatically loyal to the emperor. In one of the HH short stories he is talking to his bodyguard/ companion and pretty much states only the emperor can rule and he would be willing to fight any one who tried to take his place, loyalist or traitor.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk (http://tapatalk.com/m?id=1)Wow! Good job he ate some chaos and got put in a coma shortly after The Emperor was incapacitated. I guess he'd not be happy with what happened once The Emperor was wounded by Horus (other people ruling in The Emperor's name).

ryng_sting
07-01-2014, 20:43
Lion and his legion were loyal. True, they aided and abetted a traitor legion (The Iron Warriors), but were unaware of their true loyalties. They were delayed getting back to Terra, but that was due to the warp storms, and they made the most of their time scattering the Night Lords.

Not all the Fallen worshipped Chaos, or even cared much for Luther at all - then as now. Unfortunately, none of this makes any difference once the DA get hold of them.

TheDungen
07-01-2014, 22:24
I think some fallen knew what luther was doing and some didnt, also it seems the lord cypher knew but didn't approve. I'm still hoping that Cypher turns out to be the lion running around possessing a space marine (since his body is asleep in the rock), would be the perfect irony that the unforgiven are trying to kill their primarch... for killing their primarch.

If not for the big issue of Luther not being able to defeat the lion without the aid of chaos I'd say that the lion was the traitor to the imperium returning to regroup at caliban to regroup before launching his own war on guilliman and guilliman tries to have luther dispose of his brother before the lion can start a second rebellion (so no one was chaos tainted). But without chaos Luther doesn't stand a snowballs chance in hell against the lion so...
Of course it's possible that Luther was tainted and guilliman just didnt know. Or that the lion had goen bakc on his promise that if the emperor would not rule the imperium then no one would, and that guilliman then had no reason to want him dead (though it is remarkable that Russ and the lion the two primarchs who oppose guilliman both disappear soon after).

The Emperor
08-01-2014, 04:39
I think Luthor became possessed by chaos but that doesnt mean his followers were...Heck we know that some if not most/all of them were loyal to the Emperor, just not to Johnson... see Chapter Commander Astelan

Umm... it's been a while since I've read that book, but wasn't he blowing smoke up their asses to set them up for a fall?

As for "most/all", do you really think those guys DIDN'T notice it when Luther became a Daemon Prince?


heck after the HH only 1 single Fallen Angel has become a demon prince... I would think that speaks highly of loyalty they had...

That speaks to the rarity of Daemon Princes, than anything else, and the rarity of the Fallen themselves, nevermind the time they have to set themselves up and become established Chaos agents and ascend to Daemon Prince before the Dark Angels catch up to them.

The Emperor
08-01-2014, 05:12
Considering that Caliban is a world TAINTED permanently(in its core it seems a Daemonprince or worse is locked in by the watchers in the dark)

Incorrect. It's Lion El'Jonson who's asleep in the core of the Rock being watched over by the Watchers in the Dark, not a Daemon Prince (The only Chaos taint would be Luther, who's kept prisoner by the Dark Angels).



...After pressing him further, he explained that only the Studio material (rulebooks, codexes, army books and suchlike) was canonical in that it HAD to be adhered-to in the plots and background of the novels. There was no obligation on authors to adhere to facts and events as spelled out in Black Library work.

In other words folks, the Fallen's version of events is as valid and true as the Unforgiven's.

Umm... the very quote which you posted to support your argument disputes it. Look at the bolded and underlined portions. Then look at Codex: Angels of Death (2nd Edition), Codex: Dark Angels (4th Edition), and Codex: Dark Angels (6th Edition). All of them say the exact same thing: That the Dark Angels were the Loyalists while the Fallen were Traitors. This is straight from the Codex. And as the quote you posted points out, if it's in a Codex, then it's canon and must be adhered to. There's no wiggle room there.


Over the decades Luther had brooded, nurturing a seed of jealousy. His hatred had spread, poisoning those under his command and several generations of new recruits. His powerful oratory skills had twisted their hearts with an all-consuming hatred of the new Imperium. Like Horus. Luther had been corrupted; his pride had been all the opening the Dark Gods needed to make him their own.

The Fallen grew to hate the Imperium. That doesn't speak of personal loyalty to the Emperor. That's total animosity for the Emperor and his works.


Still, they had thought the Dark Powers on the run, only to find their own homeworld, their own brethren, corrupted and turned against them.


Although the Primarch possessed immense power, the two opponents were equally matched, for Luther's abilities were enhanced by vast forces gifted to him by the Dark Gods.

Remember, Luther wasn't really a Space Marine. He was a genetically modified human, and yet he was able to go toe-to-toe with a Primarch! If the roles were reversed then how could Luther have possibly gone head-to-head with Lion El'Jonson if he wasn't boosted in power by Chaos?


As he hesitated, Luther unleashed a furious psychic attack that knocked Jonson to hi knees and left him mortally wounded.

Further evidence of Luther's Chaos gifts. He wasn't psychic before, as far as I know.


As the dying Ptimarch struggled to stand, a veil was lifted from Luther's eyes and he realised the full extent of his deeds. His was a triple betrayal: of his friend, of the Dark Angels, and of the Emperor.

Again, if he and the Fallen were Loyalists, then why would he feel that he betrayed the Emperor?


Luther repeated the same words over and over again: the Primarch had been carried away by the Watchers in the Dark and one day he would return to forgive Luther for the terrible sins he had committed.

Why would Luther need forgiveness if his side was the Loyalist side?


They decided the true story of treachery behind the destruction of Cali ban must remain secret; no outsider must learn of the schism that split their Legion, or that any Dark Angels had ever turned to the Ruinous Powers.

If the Dark Angels were the Traitors, then why when they met in their conclave would they feel the need to lie to themselves about their role?


They have reported back to the Rock the confirmed presence of several members of the Fallen amongst the traitorous forces.

If the Fallen were Loyalists, then why are a bunch of them amongst the 13th Black Crusade forces? Come to think of it, why is it that every time the Fallen appear in a Codex, it's in a Chaos Codex? Even now they're considered a Chaos Marine Formation.


Although the Fallen Dark Angels chose the Ruinous Powers over their brethren, not all have succumbed to the power of Chaos to the same degree.

The Fallen chose Chaos over the Imperium. Not to the same degree, but they did choose to side with Chaos. They weren't mistakenly siding with Chaos against the Emperor. They knew exactly what they were signing up for.


Some of the Fallen have embraced the power of the Dark Gods, becoming true Chaos Space Marines.


Some Fallen control armies of cultists; others have risen to become rulers of planetary empires, or have gathered bands of Chaos Space Marines beneath their banner in order to sow death and misery across whole sectors of the Imperium.

As quotes earlier, they sided with Luther against the Imperium. They weren't mistakenly fighting against the Lion because they thought they were still on the Emperor's side.


The Ruinous Powers are known to play cruel tricks. On occasion, a Fallen has appeared upon a world having just, to his frame of reference, been plucked from the disintegrating surface of Caliban. That thousands of intervening years have passed are, to him, just the blinking of an eye within the abyss of insanity that is the Warp. Driven wild with rage, such individuals launch themselves upon the hapless servants of the Imperium...

If they're Loyalists, why would their first choice upon returning be to prove their loyalty by butchering Imperial agents?


Some of the Fallen have realised that their actions on Caliban were wrong. Disgusted by their weakness in the face of the corrupting influence of the Chaos Gods...

If they were never traitors then why would some come to believe that they were wrong? And once again it's pointed out that they weren't Anti-Lion/Pro-Emperor, but Pro-Chaos.

Now he's a definition of the Omniscient POV, in which the Codex books are written.


Third-person, omniscient: Historically, the third-person omniscient perspective has been the most commonly used. A story in this narrative mode is presented by a narrator with an overarching point of view, seeing and knowing everything that happens within the world of the story, including what each of the characters is thinking and feeling.[7] One advantage of omniscience is that this mode enhances the sense of objective reliability (i.e. truthfulness) of the plot. The third-person omniscient narrator is the least capable of being unreliable

In other words, the narrator of the Codex books is the most reliable. A character within a novel, however, is the least reliable. Particularly when that character has a reason within the narrative to lie, as Astellan does.

Honestly, now. It's pretty apparent that the Dark Angels and Lion El'Jonson were Loyalists, while Luther and the Fallen were traitors. At this point people are no longer arguing the fluff, but their own personal fan fiction.

m1acca1551
08-01-2014, 07:15
I think some fallen knew what luther was doing and some didnt, also it seems the lord cypher knew but didn't approve. I'm still hoping that Cypher turns out to be the lion running around possessing a space marine (since his body is asleep in the rock), would be the perfect irony that the unforgiven are trying to kill their primarch... for killing their primarch.

If not for the big issue of Luther not being able to defeat the lion without the aid of chaos I'd say that the lion was the traitor to the imperium returning to regroup at caliban to regroup before launching his own war on guilliman and guilliman tries to have luther dispose of his brother before the lion can start a second rebellion (so no one was chaos tainted). But without chaos Luther doesn't stand a snowballs chance in hell against the lion so...
Of course it's possible that Luther was tainted and guilliman just didnt know. Or that the lion had goen bakc on his promise that if the emperor would not rule the imperium then no one would, and that guilliman then had no reason to want him dead (though it is remarkable that Russ and the lion the two primarchs who oppose guilliman both disappear soon after).


I doubt very much that Guilliman would go to the lengths of plotting the destruction of the DA, It doesn't seem his way, definatley an Alpha Legion move but that of Guilliman?? Definatley not. People are very quick to make him the big bad guy, but honestly who amongst the primarchs were capable of leading the imperium of man after the heresy??
Russ - wolf king to hell bent on chasing down the traitors
Dorn - bitter and broken by the emperors death on his watch
Lion - disliked by others, with problems in his own back yard
The Khan - just plain mistrusted
Vulkan - seeking stability
Guilliman - rules an empire he built, and controls the largest legion, pragmatist in the extreme

I think the Lion would have fought Guilliman if he wasn't caught dealing with the problems on caliban, The lion would have suspected Guilliman of being a usurper and challanged, Gulliman would have been forced to fight in order to stop the Lion from stopping the Imperium from evolving.

Pragmatic change vs Hidebound Tradition

OuroborosTriumphant
08-01-2014, 07:49
Incorrect. It's Lion El'Jonson who's asleep in the core of the Rock being watched over by the Watchers in the Dark, not a Daemon Prince (The only Chaos taint would be Luther, who's kept prisoner by the Dark Angels).

I think Nkari is talking about Ouroboros (my namesake), the daemon in the core of Caliban, not Johnson who sleeps in the core of the Rock (which is part of the remains of Caliban, but presumably is a chunk of the surface, not the core).

And Caliban does certainly seem to have been tainted, but there is no evidence that it tainted Johnson; with the HH short stories we've been inside Johnson's head and it seems clear he is completely loyal to the Emperor. It does seem like the Chaos gods might have planned for Caliban to corrupt Johnson from the visions Argel Tal saw in the First Heretic but it's pretty clear they failed in that respect. Now, Johnson's childhood surrounded by enormous deadly chaos-tainted beasts did make Johnson paranoid, insular and untrusting. But we've been in his head and it's pretty clear that, flawed as Johnson was, he was loyal.

Luther, last we saw of him, was laying his plans to secede from the Imperium and hoping to bind Ouroboros to his service. Unless you write off the whole of Horus Heresy books are myths or lies, it's pretty clear; Johnson was loyal to the Emperor and Imperium. Luther betrayed his Primarch, his Emperor and his Imperium and planned to traffic with daemons. Astelan's account of events is contradicted; he was lying to Boreas or his memory was warped by his trip through the Warp or both.

Now, there may be those amongst the Fallen who turn out to oppose Luther before the end. The recent "Guardian of the Order" audiobook makes it clear that Lord Luther and Lord Cypher do not completely trust each other. There may be a fair few more twists in the tale. But Johnson is pretty clearly loyal and Luther is pretty clearly treacherous.

Now the question of "Are the modern Dark Angels loyal to the Imperium?" is complex. What is the Imperium? Who is the true authority while the Emperor rests on the Golden Throne? The Dark Angels care more for restoring their Legion's honour and keeping their shame secret than they do for the authority of the High Lords of Terra and the Inquisition. But neither of those organizations were created by the Emperor. They operate as a Legion is defiance of the Codex Astartes. But the Codex Astartes wasn't authored by the Emperor either.

Johnson was a paranoid loner. He didn't trust anyone but the Emperor. His Legion continue this tradition. They are not loyal servants of the High Lords, the Inquisition or the Codex Astartes. But they certainly do their best to be loyal servants of the Emperor.

Telemachus
08-01-2014, 07:55
Umm... the very quote which you posted to support your argument disputes it. Look at the bolded and underlined portions. Then look at Codex: Angels of Death (2nd Edition), Codex: Dark Angels (4th Edition), and Codex: Dark Angels (6th Edition). All of them say the exact same thing: That the Dark Angels were the Loyalists while the Fallen were Traitors. This is straight from the Codex. And as the quote you posted points out, if it's in a Codex, then it's canon and must be adhered to. There's no wiggle room there... I was wondering how long it would take for someone to do what you've done; which is to highlight one part of the quote, whilst conveniently ignoring the context in which it was made -


'...After pressing him further, he explained that only the Studio material (rulebooks, codexes, army books and suchlike) was canonical in that it HAD to be adhered-to in the plots and background of the novels. There was no obligation on authors to adhere to facts and events as spelled out in Black Library work.'

In other words, an author writing a story about the Dark Angels has to adhere to certain accepted things; their home world was Caliban, their Primarch was Lion El'Jonson etc. As long as they don't change those accepted parts of the Dark Angels background, then they can write whatever they want.

Now the part about the codexes being canon?


'Let's put it another way: anything with a 40K logo on it is as official as any Codex... and at least as crammed full of rumours, distorted legends and half-truths.'

That's saying that the stories in the codices are as reliable as anything else you read concerning the 40k universe. As for the Codex: Angels of Death (2nd Edition), Codex: Dark Angels (4th Edition), and Codex: Dark Angels (6th Edition)... [saying] ...the exact same thing: That the Dark Angels were the Loyalists while the Fallen were Traitor?

There's always at least three side to every story and, of course, there's this -


'Here's our standard line: Yes it's all official, but remember that we're reporting back from a time where stories aren't always true, or at least 100% accurate. if it has the 40K logo on it, it exists in the 40k universe. Or it was a legend that may well have happened. Or a rumour that may or may not have any truth behind it...'

So, the Fallen's version of events is as valid and true as the Unforgiven's.

TheDungen
08-01-2014, 11:08
How about this: Oroboros (is a he a snake that bites his own tail?) manipulates (or even possesses) Luther to fighting the lion so that he can posses the lion when the lion is weakened. But then Luther falters (or breaks free of the possession) when thw lion is wounded, then cypher shows up and before oroboros can possess him allow the lions soul to posses him and with the aid of the watchers put the lions body in a magic sleep so that he cannot be possessed (or skip the saving the lions soul part and cypher just puts him in the sleep to protect him from possession). Oroboros cheated of his way out then tears caliban apart in his attempts to escape.


I doubt very much that Guilliman would go to the lengths of plotting the destruction of the DA, It doesn't seem his way, definatley an Alpha Legion move but that of Guilliman?? Definatley not. People are very quick to make him the big bad guy, but honestly who amongst the primarchs were capable of leading the imperium of man after the heresy??
Russ - wolf king to hell bent on chasing down the traitors
Dorn - bitter and broken by the emperors death on his watch
Lion - disliked by others, with problems in his own back yard
The Khan - just plain mistrusted
Vulkan - seeking stability
Guilliman - rules an empire he built, and controls the largest legion, pragmatist in the extreme

I think the Lion would have fought Guilliman if he wasn't caught dealing with the problems on caliban, The lion would have suspected Guilliman of being a usurper and challanged, Gulliman would have been forced to fight in order to stop the Lion from stopping the Imperium from evolving.

Pragmatic change vs Hidebound Tradition

In order to save the imperium from being torn apart in an even more bloody civil war? Not sure that would've made him a bad guy. Also your pragmatic change ended in the imperium we know in 40k not very pragmatic is it? The lion wasn't about tradition he wanted to dissolve the imperium entirely.

Perrin
08-01-2014, 12:40
I'm not sure possession in Warhammer works that way. Everything I've read shows that the person that will be possessed needs to be willing on some kind of level, or at least there needs to be some kind of influence already over them to weaken their resolve. Like Fulgrim, a Primarch, his will and resistance had been whittled down over a course of months by the Laer Sword before the daemon inside it could take over his body, and even then it had to wait for a moment of extreme pressure when Fulgrim was at his most vulnerable.

Luther could very well have been possessed but the Lion wouldn't have been able to be, unless the massive psychic attack Luther hits him with corroded his defences that much.

A few things on the Fallen, recent material (Cypher dataslate) shows that Luther did turn away from the Imperium, and the two DA HH novels we have already show that he was turning towards Chaos worship and sorcery. Cypher started his own group of rebels within the rebels, staying loyal to the Emperor and to the Lion. They were fighting on Caliban for the loyalists when the vortex swallowed up all of the Fallen. This means that there are some Fallen that are true to the Emperor, like Cypher apparently is, some that are Chaos marines and some that are renegades, either because they don't care anymore or that they believe very much like the Soul Drinkers do, supporting humanity but not the Imperium.

LexxBomb
08-01-2014, 13:25
no, anyone can be possess by a demon unless they have already been possessed previously... Thats the point of the Illuminati, they have already cast off demonic possession of their own free will and as such can never be possessed or influenced by chaos ever again. It has been shown, heck the vast majority of demonicly possessed people are possessed against their will... It can be done through many methods such as a demon just entering a body through touch, through dreams, through a Psychic link, breakng down mental barriers, through a sacrifice, glyths caved onto the body... lots of ways... They just simply dont have to be invited in.
The biggest problem the Imperium has with Psychers is their high chance of being possessed.

Perrin
08-01-2014, 14:21
Breaking down mental barriers, through a sacrifice, glyphs carved onto a body, that's what I meant by "some kind of influence over them". I have never read any BL novel that states a daemon can just materialise and possess a completely normal, healthy, mentally sound human/astartes, especially not a Primarch which is what was being talked about. Psykers are different because they interact with the warp frequently.

LexxBomb
08-01-2014, 15:00
well Eldar Prophecies had that (demon just entering a body) but then again it had the Black Crystal Sword which kills demons and was created to kill Slannesh.... Its like a demon eating your soul...

uzi66613
08-01-2014, 16:33
after reading every bit of dark angels lore and fluff i can get my hands on i think Luthor and the lion were both loyal in their own way. Luthor was loyal to the lion and the old ways of Caliban and the lion was loyal to the emperor. However the lion liked to get his own way as shown when Nemial the Chaplain tells him he cant use the librarians powers and the lion punches his head clean of his shoulders. However in Unremembered Empire the lion gets taunted and has his carroted artery cut by night hunter in the first exchange. Astellan has the truth when he says that the lion was waiting to see who won. So i think the unforgiven are right but there are to many unanswered questions which the current 40st millenium books are slowly working on.

harlokin
08-01-2014, 16:45
after reading every bit of dark angels lore and fluff i can get my hands on i think Luthor and the lion were both loyal in their own way. Luthor was loyal to the lion and the old ways of Caliban and the lion was loyal to the emperor. However the lion liked to get his own way as shown when Nemial the Chaplain tells him he cant use the librarians powers and the lion punches his head clean of his shoulders. However in Unremembered Empire the lion gets taunted and has his carroted artery cut by night hunter in the first exchange. Astellan has the truth when he says that the lion was waiting to see who won. So i think the unforgiven are right but there are to many unanswered questions which the current 40st millenium books are slowly working on.

Luther was loyal to The Emperor? What part of his using the powers of Chaos, and seeking to secede from the Imperium made him particularly loyal to The Emperor?

The Lion was not the only Primarch to disregard the Edict of Nikea when it became a hindrance. They were also loyalists.

Astelan, a traitor trying to justify his actions against the Imperium, "has the truth"?

TrooperTino
08-01-2014, 17:28
This thread made a very interesting read! The only thing I want to say is how much I liked the dark angels as possible traitors back in the days. That no one could say for sure who the real traitors were, the fallen or the unforgiven?! The fact that a dark angel marine in present 40k doesn't even know for himself, or better said: is told he is on the emperors side, while only the inner circle knows for sure. Sometimes its mentioned that a fallen in fact helped imperial forces until the DA showed up and caused more destruction in their hunt of the fallen than the fallen himself.

If "official" fluff now paints it so simple that the fallen are traitors and the DAs sometimes strange behaviour is only because they don't want anyone else to know a part of their legion rebelled, well it takes another part out of the 40k lore that was great and replaces it with something ordinary and uninteresting.

=Angel=
08-01-2014, 19:11
Yeah. The dark angels are far more interesting as secret traitors than as space janitors cleaning up their 10000 year old mess.

The fallen are far more interesting as space marines loyal to humanity, the emperor perhaps but not necessarily the Imperium- as opposed to moustache twirling Villans

Telemachus
08-01-2014, 19:19
Yeah. The dark angels are far more interesting as secret traitors than as space janitors cleaning up their 10000 year old mess.

The fallen are far more interesting as space marines loyal to humanity, the emperor perhaps but not necessarily the Imperium- as opposed to moustache twirling Villans I don't think I'll ever be able to face a Dark Angels army across the table without thinking 'space janitors' and having a wee chuckle to myself. :D

angelismortis
08-01-2014, 19:33
I don't think I'll ever be able to face a Dark Angels army across the table without thinking 'space janitors' and having a wee chuckle to myself. :D

That image does make for some interesting conversion ideas.

Anima
08-01-2014, 21:13
This thread made a very interesting read! The only thing I want to say is how much I liked the dark angels as possible traitors back in the days. That no one could say for sure who the real traitors were, the fallen or the unforgiven?! The fact that a dark angel marine in present 40k doesn't even know for himself, or better said: is told he is on the emperors side, while only the inner circle knows for sure. Sometimes its mentioned that a fallen in fact helped imperial forces until the DA showed up and caused more destruction in their hunt of the fallen than the fallen himself.

If "official" fluff now paints it so simple that the fallen are traitors and the DAs sometimes strange behaviour is only because they don't want anyone else to know a part of their legion rebelled, well it takes another part out of the 40k lore that was great and replaces it with something ordinary and uninteresting.

Back in the days?
Dark Angels have explicitly not been the traitors since Codex: Angels of Death. :p

TrooperTino
09-01-2014, 10:18
That image does make for some interesting conversion ideas.
I see a new project on the horizon ;)


The fallen are far more interesting as space marines loyal to humanity, the emperor perhaps but not necessarily the Imperium- as opposed to moustache twirling Villans

True. I've allways had the feeling the DA (and the fallen) don't really fit into the chaos-traitor and imperial-loyalist category like other legions do. I used these words in my post, I know :) what I mean is I think the DA were just on the proposed victors side after learning about what happened on Istvaan and switched sides again when they arrived at Terra and saw the traitors were on the run. Now they roll with the imperium, but the fallen know the truth (or don't, depending on the individual fallen).
I liked that the DA may be traitors without the omnipresent chaos influence, it was just cold logic thinking that made them open for all options and they chose to side with horus to not be fighting on the loosing side.

It makes the DA in present 40k a nice x-factor.... they fight for the imperium, but what if the imperium is loosing again? Will they switch sides again? Just waiting for the best opportunity? Are they simply loyal to the one with the strongest powerblock or true loyalists/traitors? What is their true agenda? What is truely hidden in The Rock?

A mystery comparable to the Alpha Lagion, but different. I like that :)



Back in the days?
Before the BL HH series came out.

AndrewGPaul
09-01-2014, 10:44
You're missing Anima's point; "Back in the days", it was also pretty explicit that the Fallen were the traitors. :) If anything, that fact was more obvious.

TrooperTino
09-01-2014, 11:48
I think you're missing my point. If it allways was so obvious, why is there a discussion at all?

OuroborosTriumphant
09-01-2014, 13:40
I think you're missing my point. If it allways was so obvious, why is there a discussion at all?

The Fallen were introduced in Angels of Death, the second edition BA+DA codex and are depicted unambiguously as traitors. Angels of Darkness, AFAIK, introduced Astelan and his claim that the Lion was waiting to see who was victorious. Astelan, even in Angels of Darkness, is presented as unreliable and manipulative. Fallen Angels showed Astelan to be at least mistaken and at worst lying.

Angels of Death was published in 1996. Angels of Darkness was published in 2003. Fallen Angels was published in 2009. There were 7 years of it being unambiguous that the Fallen were traitors, then there were 6 years of ambiguity over the matter, followed by 5 years of it being unambiguous again.

TrooperTino
09-01-2014, 15:49
Totally true! My answer may have sounded a bit hostile and I apologize if it's taken that way.

Maybe I should explain how I take warhammer fluff in general before replying further: I think (and that's totally only my opinion) that W40k fluff shouldn't be seen as something that is set in stone and I think further that GW is taking the wrong direction in flat out explaining stuff without further room for conspiracy theories. I own nearly every codex, artbook etc etc from rouge trader to 3rd edition and while I love reading 40k fluff I neither memorize it nor take all that I read into account, instead "bending" it a bit to my liking. So the moment a discussion is about quoting passages from official publications xy I am out because I can't hold that standart. Well and I have my problems expressing difficult thoughts in english (but I'll keep trying^^).

What I wanted to express with my post was, that sometimes it's maybe better to discuss what would make the background richer instead of making it duller. And in my opinion it is not so important which wording or semantics were used in an official publication, but how we (the fans) can incorporate GW publications in a way that keeps the mystery in 40k. Keeps it interesting and diverse.

For example I loved a post I read here about a conspiracy involving the Crimson Fist and the Ultramarines, something about that it's not Roboute Guilleman on Maccrage, but another Primarch kept hostage. It was about how the CF were later decimated by accurate sniperfire from orcs etc etc and while it's absolutly unofficial fanfic, the simple possibility that it COULD BE is something that sets 40k apart from other games Fluff.

About the DA and the fallen I am not talking about whats right or wrong, what passage in what book backs up the one side or the other, I am talking about what in my opinion makes the background richer. To have some mysteries flat out explained (like the council of Nikeea) takes from the background instead of contributing to it.


a bit more on topic:
There was a BL book I don't remember fully, I think it was a Spacewolfes novel. In it the wolfes(or some other marines) were fighting a rebellion and behind it was a fallen who had a native alien population that worshipped chaos stirred into fighting the imperials. That fallen was no doubt a traitor in consortion with chaos. In Codex DA the fallen are depicted as traitors, I got that myself. But if you view a codex as a biased in-universe view of the faction the codex is about, things become less clear and more "it depends" or "thats what they want us to think". A bit of in-universe propaganda if you like.


sooooo... if official fluff today says the fallen are traitors on the side of chaos, who am I to say they aren't?! It's GWs IP after all and if they like they can make spacemarines wear pink tütüs (the ballerina stuff :) ). But shouldn't we, the fans, have a mind of our own about some changes instead of following every new publication to the letter? 40k is about mystery and that not all may be what it seems... maybe the traitor marines were right after all, maybe the Emperor was using mankind and the whole great crusade was a part of some grand sheme in which the whole of mankind was just a tool to be abandoned the moment they/we had played our role.

That was the point I was trying to make... keep the mystery in 40k and don't take every retcon as an absolute. But everyone to his liking, it's a fictional universe after all and while I have my fun seeing conspiracys, lies and deception behind every corner, another guy has his fun searching for retcons and altering the gameuniverse depending on them.

Edit: put a spoiler tag in ;)

TheDungen
09-01-2014, 18:17
I'd say mortally wounding someone with a psychic attack counts at weakening them.

Ratbeast
10-01-2014, 00:01
Space wolves will just wipe the dark angels out

Nkari
10-01-2014, 12:00
I think Nkari is talking about Ouroboros (my namesake), the daemon in the core of Caliban, not Johnson who sleeps in the core of the Rock (which is part of the remains of Caliban, but presumably is a chunk of the surface, not the core).

And Caliban does certainly seem to have been tainted, but there is no evidence that it tainted Johnson; with the HH short stories we've been inside Johnson's head and it seems clear he is completely loyal to the Emperor. It does seem like the Chaos gods might have planned for Caliban to corrupt Johnson from the visions Argel Tal saw in the First Heretic but it's pretty clear they failed in that respect. Now, Johnson's childhood surrounded by enormous deadly chaos-tainted beasts did make Johnson paranoid, insular and untrusting. But we've been in his head and it's pretty clear that, flawed as Johnson was, he was loyal.

Luther, last we saw of him, was laying his plans to secede from the Imperium and hoping to bind Ouroboros to his service. Unless you write off the whole of Horus Heresy books are myths or lies, it's pretty clear; Johnson was loyal to the Emperor and Imperium. Luther betrayed his Primarch, his Emperor and his Imperium and planned to traffic with daemons. Astelan's account of events is contradicted; he was lying to Boreas or his memory was warped by his trip through the Warp or both.

Now, there may be those amongst the Fallen who turn out to oppose Luther before the end. The recent "Guardian of the Order" audiobook makes it clear that Lord Luther and Lord Cypher do not completely trust each other. There may be a fair few more twists in the tale. But Johnson is pretty clearly loyal and Luther is pretty clearly treacherous.

Now the question of "Are the modern Dark Angels loyal to the Imperium?" is complex. What is the Imperium? Who is the true authority while the Emperor rests on the Golden Throne? The Dark Angels care more for restoring their Legion's honour and keeping their shame secret than they do for the authority of the High Lords of Terra and the Inquisition. But neither of those organizations were created by the Emperor. They operate as a Legion is defiance of the Codex Astartes. But the Codex Astartes wasn't authored by the Emperor either.

Johnson was a paranoid loner. He didn't trust anyone but the Emperor. His Legion continue this tradition. They are not loyal servants of the High Lords, the Inquisition or the Codex Astartes. But they certainly do their best to be loyal servants of the Emperor.

Yup.. that pretty much sums up what I have gathered from the various HH audio books ive listened to. And before this thread, I played Dark angels simply because I could get TPing Terminators as troops. But now Im starting to actually really like the fluff.

spacemonkeymojo
10-01-2014, 14:57
Regardless of declarations of loyalty, the Dark Angels and Johnson do tend to put their own interests before their duty to the Emperor/Imperium

I completely agree. A while ago I posted that the Dark Angels have actually been worse to the Imperium as they have 1. Wasted time/resources hunting down the fallen and 2. Eliminated loyal individuals who stumbled upon their secret. If one follows the idea of loyalty being a factor, they have failed on multiple levels.

LexxBomb
10-01-2014, 15:05
I don't know... you could look at the Dark Angels like the NSA or CIA, both are clandestine organisations (like the Dark Angels) and both will take out US citizens if they deem the action to be for the greater good (which can include keeping clandestine operations secret)... I wonder which Legion/Chapter the Imperium can call on for Clandestine operations...Ignore the Assassins, Grey Knight (who are only meant to fight demons)... would it be the Deathwatch or could the Imperium use the DAs as a clandestine operations force (as well as a front line force)... Its not like they never had characters who specialised in that sprt of work - Vet Sergent Namaan for instance.

ryng_sting
11-01-2014, 13:19
Astelan's account of events is contradicted; he was lying to Boreas or his memory was warped by his trip through the Warp or both.

I don't think so.

Astelan tells you what he saw at first hand and what was supposition on his part. The latter is conjecture, granted, and has been proven mistaken.

What he was a living witness to, however, can't be dismissed with mere handwavium. Some posters may prefer the version where the goodie DAs arrive and bombard their home planet and the eeeeeevil, Chaos-worshipping kin inhabiting it if they please. Others may prefer the more realistic, nuanced version of the Fall of Caliban.

TheDungen
11-01-2014, 15:10
Yeah but Astelan's version has one gaping flaw, there's no way that Luther could have defeated the lion without the aid of the chaos gods.

bittick
11-01-2014, 20:42
Others may prefer the more realistic, nuanced version of the Fall of Caliban.

Oh please.

They find Astelan after he had conquered a planet and butchered like 1/3 of the population because they kept rebelling. Astelan was also cut off with communication with the Lion and his forces. He had no way to know what the Lion was thinking or what he was doing. He's not reliable. That's like me saying "ryng sting needs to use the bathroom but he isn't doing it now because he is out of toilet paper." I have no knowledge to back up this claim. But I can sure make it up. Now in my situation, I have no reason to make such a claim. But Astelan does.

pun3d
11-01-2014, 21:32
Yeah but Astelan's version has one gaping flaw, there's no way that Luther could have defeated the lion without the aid of the chaos gods.

Pretty much this. Luther wasn't a space marine. He was to old to become one so was basically turned into a super human but not a space marine.

LexxBomb
11-01-2014, 22:58
Yeah but Astelan's version has one gaping flaw, there's no way that Luther could have defeated the lion without the aid of the chaos gods.
Actually he could... Lets se now examples of Primarchs vs Humans/lower level enermies

We have documented evidence that a Primarch was killed by a Human Assassin - Night Lord Primarch
Emperor almost taken out by an Ork Warlord...

Now Luthor may not have been made into a space marine which would include all it benefits but he would have been made into an incredibly powerful warrior... The Primarchs were not undefeatable and so if Johnson was holding back he could Luthor could have fought him.

harlokin
11-01-2014, 23:55
Actually he could... Lets se now examples of Primarchs vs Humans/lower level enermies

We have documented evidence that a Primarch was killed by a Human Assassin - Night Lord Primarch
Emperor almost taken out by an Ork Warlord...

Now Luthor may not have been made into a space marine which would include all it benefits but he would have been made into an incredibly powerful warrior... The Primarchs were not undefeatable and so if Johnson was holding back he could Luthor could have fought him.

Are you really going to use the example of Curze sitting still and allowing M'Shen to kill him as a proof that a human can kill a Primarch, really?

Incidentally, it's Luther, not Luthor.

LexxBomb
12-01-2014, 01:41
even if he allowed the assassin to kill him, we don't really know how well an assassin would do against a Primarch. For all we know they might actually be able to do the job.

the_yuk
12-01-2014, 03:32
Assassins are hardly regular humans either, they have been modified and enhanced to perform their role better.

After all the lion is in the top echelons of primarchs combat wise. He is a master swordsman and manages to knock leman Russ unconscious with a punch. How could Luther best him unaided when the lion has come out on top going toe to toe with other primarchs?


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LexxBomb
12-01-2014, 03:47
but we don't know how powerful the augmentations Luther recived made him... Is he like a Thunder Warrior (who are more powerful then a Space Marine but have much shorter lives)?

Fluxeor
12-01-2014, 04:19
Whilst records indicate that The Lion was loyal and Luther and some of those with him had certainly strayed from The Emperor's light .. it isn't as crystal clear regarding The Lion or more specifically .. The Dark Angels accompanying him, particularly in the aftermath of the events at Terra. There's an interesting little passage in the new Cypher dataslate which hints at this.


The majority of those that know of Cypher believe he is villainous. If his incalculable plan is successful, who knows what destruction he is capable of? Some rumour that his end goal is to slay the Emperor himself. A few of those in the Inner Circle – not the Interrogator-Chaplains, but those of more open minds –- consider another possibility. Perhaps Cypher is trying to repent, trying to redeem his Fallen brethren’s deeds, or to steer Humanity away from some predestined course known only to himself? Those who feel this way are silent, for this is actually a more frightening thought –- it would mean the Dark Angels are on the wrong side once again...
This raises the question ... if their loyalty is unquestionable, why would they be on the wrong side once again? Those 2 words indicate that there has been at least one previous occasion where they have not been on "The Right Side" (presumably that of The Emperor, The Imperium or Humanity).

bittick
12-01-2014, 05:24
At a certain point, you just have to take information at face value.

Yes, yes, we all know that the stories we read about the 41st Millennium are filled with half-truths and rumors, that "canon" depends on who you talk to and what you choose to believe. Obi-Wan taught us that the truths we cling to depend a great deal upon our point of view. Cop out "Darth Vader is your dad" excuse. But eventually we have to decide on something and make a determination as far as which information is most reliable. Otherwise you get people running around saying that Sanguinius is really Seth Rogen and the Blood Angels thought he had wings because of all the pot they smoked. "Dude it's totally in there if you just read between the lines."


Regarding the "wrong side once again", I'm not paying that much for a PDF, so I haven't read it. But since it's talking about Cypher trying to repent for his Fallen brethren's deeds, I think it's not talking about the historically loyal portion of the Dark Angels being traitors.

LexxBomb
12-01-2014, 05:33
what annoyed me about the PDF was that it alludes to the Sword Cypher carries as the Luther sword...A sword that the Dark Angels already have in their vaults... it was recovered in the story Black Pearl...With the inscription dedicating the sword to Luther from Johnson as a present...are they just deliberatly ignoring content that they wrote earlier, can they not be bothered even doing a cursory search of the material... seriously it wouldn't be hard for them to create a database with keyword search functions... In fact I really think that when ever they create new content they should then enter this content into said database. At least they are explaining why Cypher now has green armour.

TheDungen
12-01-2014, 08:28
Wait he no longer carries the lion sword? That just disappointing.

harlokin
12-01-2014, 08:48
Wait he no longer carries the lion sword? That just disappointing.

I agree, was a nice piece of fluff.

LexxBomb
12-01-2014, 09:22
It can still be read as he carries The Lion Sword... its just that it also explicitly says it could be the Luther Sword (when it describes him killing the Emperor)... So I take it they mean that if he wants forgiveness its the Lion Sword, and he wants to kill the Emperor it the Luther Sword.

harlokin
12-01-2014, 09:41
It can still be read as he carries The Lion Sword... its just that it also explicitly says it could be the Luther Sword (when it describes him killing the Emperor)... So I take it they mean that if he wants forgiveness its the Lion Sword, and he wants to kill the Emperor it the Luther Sword.

That's pretty cool.

LexxBomb
12-01-2014, 11:03
but as I said before it conflicts with established Lore that has the Dark Angels already have the Luther Sword locked up in a stasis field in their vault.

Telemachus
12-01-2014, 11:25
At a certain point, you just have to take information at face value.

Yes, yes, we all know that the stories we read about the 41st Millennium are filled with half-truths and rumors, that "canon" depends on who you talk to and what you choose to believe... The problem is that you can't take ANY of the information at face value; especially when that information is, by admission of the people who publish it, deliberately obfuscated.


Obi-Wan taught us that the truths we cling to depend a great deal upon our point of view. Cop out "Darth Vader is your dad" excuse. But eventually we have to decide on something and make a determination as far as which information is most reliable. Otherwise you get people running around saying that Sanguinius is really Seth Rogen and the Blood Angels thought he had wings because of all the pot they smoked. "Dude it's totally in there if you just read between the lines." Obi-Wan taught us what?! :wtf: You do realise that he's a fictional character as well? :rolleyes:


...Regarding the "wrong side once again", I'm not paying that much for a PDF, so I haven't read it. But since it's talking about Cypher trying to repent for his Fallen brethren's deeds, I think it's not talking about the historically loyal portion of the Dark Angels being traitors. So the part where it's some members of the Inner Circle of the current Dark Angels Chapter who are afraid that it's true doesn't relate to the historically loyal portion of the Dark Angels?

OuroborosTriumphant
12-01-2014, 17:22
I don't think so.

Astelan tells you what he saw at first hand and what was supposition on his part. The latter is conjecture, granted, and has been proven mistaken.

Astelan claims that the Lion systematically discriminated against the Terrans, favouring Calibanites and sending the Terrans to garrison Caliban. Fallen Angels shows that the Dark Angels on Caliban are mostly Calibanites and it is in fact the feeling that the Lion is too close to Terra and has forgotten his Calibanite heritage that motivates Luther to rebel.


What he was a living witness to, however, can't be dismissed with mere handwavium. Some posters may prefer the version where the goodie DAs arrive and bombard their home planet and the eeeeeevil, Chaos-worshipping kin inhabiting it if they please. Others may prefer the more realistic, nuanced version of the Fall of Caliban.

It's important to make this clear: Being loyal to the Emperor is not the same as being good, rebelling against the Emperor is not the same as being evil. Of course, the Dark Angels are evil; their Chaplains are specialist torturers. They abandon the defence of innocent worlds and murder their allies in order to try and keep their dishonour from becoming widely known. By any decent person's standard of morality, they are despicable (the same is true of most of the rest of the Imperium, though not for the same reasons).

Now Luther seems to have tried to harness the power of Chaos to his own ends. We know that it is the nature of Chaos to corrupt and that Chaos is malign and irreconcilably hostile to humanity. So yeah, in all probability, Luther's going to become tainted and controlled by a force that is, yes, pretty much evil. This doesn't mean that all of the Fallen were aware of Luther's corruption, much less that they all approved of it. It looks like a rift is forming between Luther and Cypher for one. Not even every Fallen who wanted Caliban to secede from the Imperium is necessarily evil or Chaos-tainted.

There is room in the narrative for nuance and complexity. But "What if....it's all the OTHER WAY ROUND?" is not nuance or complexity. It's a gimmick. And it's a gimmick that couldn't be preserved if we want to see the story in real detail.

Perrin
12-01-2014, 22:15
As of Unremembered Empire the Lion Sword is still very much in the hands of the Lion, in case anyone was wondering.

Also the impression I got was that there are the loyalist DA that were with the Lion, the traitor Fallen that were with Luther and the loyalist Fallen that were with Cypher. Astelan was #TeamLuther all the way. It does seem rather unfortunate that Cypher and his gang were unable to convey their loyalty to Lion and Legion before the warp washed them all away.

bound for glory
14-01-2014, 03:23
is there any links to more info on chapter commander astlan?

OuroborosTriumphant
14-01-2014, 09:22
is there any links to more info on chapter commander astlan?

Well, there is Lexicanum;

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Merir_Astelan#.UtUPbfRdWSo

Otherwise, read Angels of Darkness, Call of the Lion and, if you really want every scrap of info, Fallen Angels (where Astelan appears but doesn't do a lot)

TheDungen
14-01-2014, 11:35
I wonder if Luther's fallen and Cypher's fallen are still in conflict, and if they were ever in open conflict.

Sir_Turalyon
31-01-2014, 15:03
After all the lion is in the top echelons of primarchs combat wise. He is a master swordsman and manages to knock leman Russ unconscious with a punch.


A thing that even the Emperor using power fist failed at :D. Of course, the Emperor was gorged and drunk when he did try, but so was Russ...

librisrouge
02-02-2014, 03:20
The Fallen are liars, heretics, or pawns of darkness. Whichever it is, I care not. Never forgive, never forget.


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librisrouge
02-02-2014, 03:31
Dbl. Post. Sorry

=Angel=
02-02-2014, 12:33
In the third ed bloodangel codex there's a sermon by Lemartes about the battle between Horus and Sanguinius- he says how it probably went on for hours of dazzling swordplay. All the other accounts of the event have Horus simply strangle an exhausted Sanguinius to death. This was my first introduction to the idea that accounts from the universe participants are biased and flawed. I pointed out the discrepancy to a staffer and he said it was all propaganda. In all likelihood Sanguinius was a vampire who had passed on his genetic problems to the bloodangels. The HH novels haven't painted Sanguinius as vampires but they've told us that the flaw was there from the start- which you would never have learned from the codex.

Sir_Turalyon
02-02-2014, 15:23
The long discussions on state of Imperium between Astelan and Boreas in Angels of Darkness illustrate how people in universe are to clueless to be believed word for word. Neither can get his facts straight, both are right on some things, taken together they are right (or wrong) on almost everything, they can barely agree on anything (and when they agree, they usually both wrong in their judgement) and they are both loyalist Dark Angels with nothing but best intentions.

So to "who you believe" question answer is - which Fallen, and on what subject?

Langdon
02-02-2014, 16:28
I feel that Luther was getting too big for his boots and wanted command of the Legion, as Lionel had wasted too much time doing sod all away from the heresy.

After all, History books are written from the victors point of view, and what is actually written down is rhetoric and religious ******** by now.

10k years of the inner Inner Circle knowing the full Truth, the Inner Circle being fed a story to keep them loyal, then lies shared amongst 1st company, different ones to 2nd and so on down the line.

the only one that may know the full truth is Cypher.. there is a reason he is hunted by the Unforgiven across the stars. They are trying to stop him from reaching Terra.

jakejackjake
03-02-2014, 14:34
I feel that Luther was getting too big for his boots and wanted command of the Legion, as Lionel had wasted too much time doing sod all away from the heresy.

After all, History books are written from the victors point of view, and what is actually written down is rhetoric and religious ******** by now.

10k years of the inner Inner Circle knowing the full Truth, the Inner Circle being fed a story to keep them loyal, then lies shared amongst 1st company, different ones to 2nd and so on down the line.

the only one that may know the full truth is Cypher.. there is a reason he is hunted by the Unforgiven across the stars. They are trying to stop him from reaching Terra.

I honestly doubt this but hope it's the case. I don't think Sanguinis was a vampire though. Primarchs don't tend to fall victim to the gene seed issues. They do some but not the worst.

LexxBomb
06-02-2014, 12:20
Here's the thing though regarding the Blood Angels and Sanguinius... they share his death memories - thats what the Black Rage is... so if anyone in the Imperium knows what actually happened its Mephiston as he has survived the Black Rage and come out sane...he has experienced the death of his Primarch so maybe the Blood Angels really do know what happened, maybe the battle was long.