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View Full Version : Dropsite Massacre Questions - Manus' Leadership/really bad plan/what did it look like



Majorbookworm
07-01-2014, 11:27
Sorry if this seems like a silly question(s),

In the Isstvan V Massacre, I'm not sure if it is just the way the fluff is presented, but the whole affairs seem like it was carried out in a really stupid way. According to what I've read on the wiki, Ferrus Manus' plan for dealing with Horus' forces on Isstvan was to simply land in front of the traitors defensive line, in a depression no less, rather than trying to encircle to them. To me this seems like to really bad idea, as he confined his entire force into a small, low lying area where, judging by the artworks from FW an the HH books, they had to fight almost shoulder to shoulder. That being said, that's just the artwork, but does anyone know what,

a) the loyalists were thinking, even if the IW,NL, AL and WB remained loyal, Manus' strategy seems like just an excellent way to get a lot of their own men killed

and b) what would Astartes combat actually have looked like? Would they have stood in ranks Napoleonic-style, or would everything have been more spread out, also, how would it have all worked with battles involving both tank and melee combat?

totgeboren
07-01-2014, 11:59
I don't have the book at hand, and the version in my head might not match the current canon, but from what I remember, the SoH retreated from the loyalist assault through the depression, and the pursuit was lead by the IH. This would enable the WB, IW, NL and AL to deploy pretty close to the traitors position, being covered by the main assault, but we know how that ended.

I think the plan was to simply crush Horus decisively and overwhelmingly, to make a statement so to say. If the first wave of loyalists had spread out and taken it slow, the second wave would have had to deploy far away from the traitors too, and the symbolism of the punishment would have been lost, as the engagement would have ended with a long siege instead, which was definitely not something the loyalists were keen on.

And considering their numbers, the plan would probably have worked if the second wave had been loyal, though Horus would probably not have had his men retreat through the depression in the first place in that case.

Harada
07-01-2014, 17:24
Yeah, i think GW were going for the symbolic "crush the traitors utterly with overwhelming force and direct aggression" thing....that and they've not often demonstrated much interest or knowledge in writing engagements around what more realistic modern military tactics would do in the scenarios they come up with.It's all very stylised.

Dirtyjake
07-01-2014, 18:59
I think one of the most important thing to remember was that the authors have states over and over that Ferrus was out of his flipping mind over the betrayal. He wasn't thinking clearly and was not acting or thinking like a Primarch. Ferrus wanted to punish the traitors for doing... the unthinkable. Vulkan and Corax were not happy with the plan but their brother Ferrus was bullish and not thinking clearly.

So yeah, the whole plan was pretty simple, blunt, and rushed. Still, it would have worked if they hadn't been betrayed on their six o'clock.

OrganicHamster
07-01-2014, 21:20
The head-on assault was only supposed to secure the drop-site, from there they should have consolidated all seven attacking Legions and moved on Horus tactically.

cswang
07-01-2014, 21:46
Yes, the Urgall Depression was to be the drop zone for the loyalists: a large, relatively flat and open area where they could deploy and assemble.

The bulk of the battle was *supposed* to be the accumulated might of the Iron Hands, Salamanders, Raven Guard, Alpha Legion, Iron Warriors, Night Lords, and Word Bearers legions against the traitors.

Between that little wrinkle in the plan and Ferrus' insistence on pushing almost unsupported, the rest is Heresy history.

agurus1
07-01-2014, 22:40
He did have a plan and had the AL, NL, IW and WB remained Loyal it would have worked.
Basically the Urgall Depression was an ideal dropsite, but to attempt to land there without first suppressing the Traitors Anti-Air and Artillery would have been tactically unsound, and then the Sons of Horus, Emperor's Children, World Eaters, and Death Guard could have simply bombarded the dropsite, and blow any incoming loyalist drop ships with impunity. SO in order to achieve the rapid victory that honor demanded, Ferrus needed to first attempt to suppress the Traitors in order to give his supporting Legions a safe landing zone to land in (and for the first few Legions to fall back to eventually), then all 7 loyalist Legions could have prepared a massive combined assault and wipe out the already weakened Traitors.

So essentially the plan was like this:

1) Suppress as much of the Traitor anti-air, and ordnance as possible from Orbit. (Impossible to wipe it all out due to fortifications and void shields).
2) Combat drop onto Traitor Defenses (Iron Hands, Salamanders, Raven Guard), attempt to destroy all remaining threat to second wave forces (anti-air, ordnance).
3) Second Wave (Iron Warriors, Word Bearers, Alpha Legion, Night Lords) land and secure dropsite. First Wave makes a fighting withdrawal towards dropsite to repair/rearm.
4) Second Wave begins assault on the depleted Traitor Positions, joined by First Wave after they recover.
5) Destroy all remaining resistance.

SO as we can see several things beyond Ferrus Manus' control went wrong.
a) at step 3) Ferrus failed to withdraw his forces alongside the Raven Guard and Salamanders due to his rage at Fulgrim and need for personal revenge and atonement. It is unlikely he would have survived even if the Second Wave had remained loyal, due to being surrounded, and outnumbered. However his destruction didn't necessarily mean the failure of the battle.

b) at step 4) the Second Wave instead of remaining Loyal and taking their brother Legions place on the front line, opened fire on the First Wave Legions revealing their true allegiance. Caught between the Traitor Stronghold, and the Fortified Dropsite and seven rebellious Legions (4 fresh to the fight), the Loyalists stood no chance and were destroyed or scattered.

So overall, Manus' plan was flawed only because he didn't know that his allies had shifted their allegiance, and perhaps because of his rage he felt it necessary to be first to the fight. If I were hid, I would have send the more questionable Legions first (Night Lords, & Word Bearers) in the First Wave, because their recent censures would be reason to test their loyalty before trusting them to so vital a task as securing the Dropsite. I don't know if Manus had any reason to distrust the Iron Warriors or Alpha Legion though.

Grand Master Azrael
08-01-2014, 01:09
Perhaps a head on assault would have cut the traitors' centre out so that the rest of the loyalists could divide and conquer?

m1acca1551
08-01-2014, 01:39
Manus was quick to anger over the personal betrayal by fulgrim against him and the other primarchs joining the Heresey.

His plan was sound but remember her has never fought or even contemplated fighting other legions, this in experience plus his anger clouding his mind reduced him to using a sledgehammer approach. If the other legions had not betrayed him the plan would have resulted in victory through attrition alone.

However having been stabbed in the back killed any chance of success.

librisrouge
08-01-2014, 04:34
He did have a plan and had the AL, NL, IW and WB remained Loyal it would have worked.
Basically the Urgall Depression was an ideal dropsite, but to attempt to land there without first suppressing the Traitors Anti-Air and Artillery would have been tactically unsound, and then the Sons of Horus, Emperor's Children, World Eaters, and Death Guard could have simply bombarded the dropsite, and blow any incoming loyalist drop ships with impunity. SO in order to achieve the rapid victory that honor demanded, Ferrus needed to first attempt to suppress the Traitors in order to give his supporting Legions a safe landing zone to land in (and for the first few Legions to fall back to eventually), then all 7 loyalist Legions could have prepared a massive combined assault and wipe out the already weakened Traitors.

So essentially the plan was like this:

1) Suppress as much of the Traitor anti-air, and ordnance as possible from Orbit. (Impossible to wipe it all out due to fortifications and void shields).
2) Combat drop onto Traitor Defenses (Iron Hands, Salamanders, Raven Guard), attempt to destroy all remaining threat to second wave forces (anti-air, ordnance).
3) Second Wave (Iron Warriors, Word Bearers, Alpha Legion, Night Lords) land and secure dropsite. First Wave makes a fighting withdrawal towards dropsite to repair/rearm.
4) Second Wave begins assault on the depleted Traitor Positions, joined by First Wave after they recover.
5) Destroy all remaining resistance.

SO as we can see several things beyond Ferrus Manus' control went wrong.
a) at step 3) Ferrus failed to withdraw his forces alongside the Raven Guard and Salamanders due to his rage at Fulgrim and need for personal revenge and atonement. It is unlikely he would have survived even if the Second Wave had remained loyal, due to being surrounded, and outnumbered. However his destruction didn't necessarily mean the failure of the battle.

b) at step 4) the Second Wave instead of remaining Loyal and taking their brother Legions place on the front line, opened fire on the First Wave Legions revealing their true allegiance. Caught between the Traitor Stronghold, and the Fortified Dropsite and seven rebellious Legions (4 fresh to the fight), the Loyalists stood no chance and were destroyed or scattered.

So overall, Manus' plan was flawed only because he didn't know that his allies had shifted their allegiance, and perhaps because of his rage he felt it necessary to be first to the fight. If I were hid, I would have send the more questionable Legions first (Night Lords, & Word Bearers) in the First Wave, because their recent censures would be reason to test their loyalty before trusting them to so vital a task as securing the Dropsite. I don't know if Manus had any reason to distrust the Iron Warriors or Alpha Legion though.
This, this, this.
It deserves posting twice .
Th


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agurus1
08-01-2014, 05:07
This, this, this.
It deserves posting twice .
Th


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk (http://tapatalk.com/m?id=1)

Thanks I try lol honestly it is a very interesting battle. Honestly it's an interesting battle where the actions of individuals truly affected the outcome. I think the flaws fluff wise don't lay so much with Ferrus Manus' strategy but the authors explanations of why certain Primarchs turned. As an Iron Warrior fan boy I am especially interested in the chance that the Iron Warriors may have been kept from turning, one of Perturabo's own captains even lay out a case for him to come back to the Emperor after Olympia AFTER he had been taken into Horus's confidence. Of he had stayed Loyal or even the Alpha Legion, the Battle might have gone very differently and the Heresy as a whole.

Majorbookworm
08-01-2014, 05:44
He did have a plan and had the AL, NL, IW and WB remained Loyal it would have worked.
Basically the Urgall Depression was an ideal dropsite, but to attempt to land there without first suppressing the Traitors Anti-Air and Artillery would have been tactically unsound, and then the Sons of Horus, Emperor's Children, World Eaters, and Death Guard could have simply bombarded the dropsite, and blow any incoming loyalist drop ships with impunity. SO in order to achieve the rapid victory that honor demanded, Ferrus needed to first attempt to suppress the Traitors in order to give his supporting Legions a safe landing zone to land in (and for the first few Legions to fall back to eventually), then all 7 loyalist Legions could have prepared a massive combined assault and wipe out the already weakened Traitors.

So essentially the plan was like this:

1) Suppress as much of the Traitor anti-air, and ordnance as possible from Orbit. (Impossible to wipe it all out due to fortifications and void shields).
2) Combat drop onto Traitor Defenses (Iron Hands, Salamanders, Raven Guard), attempt to destroy all remaining threat to second wave forces (anti-air, ordnance).
3) Second Wave (Iron Warriors, Word Bearers, Alpha Legion, Night Lords) land and secure dropsite. First Wave makes a fighting withdrawal towards dropsite to repair/rearm.
4) Second Wave begins assault on the depleted Traitor Positions, joined by First Wave after they recover.
5) Destroy all remaining resistance.

SO as we can see several things beyond Ferrus Manus' control went wrong.
a) at step 3) Ferrus failed to withdraw his forces alongside the Raven Guard and Salamanders due to his rage at Fulgrim and need for personal revenge and atonement. It is unlikely he would have survived even if the Second Wave had remained loyal, due to being surrounded, and outnumbered. However his destruction didn't necessarily mean the failure of the battle.

b) at step 4) the Second Wave instead of remaining Loyal and taking their brother Legions place on the front line, opened fire on the First Wave Legions revealing their true allegiance. Caught between the Traitor Stronghold, and the Fortified Dropsite and seven rebellious Legions (4 fresh to the fight), the Loyalists stood no chance and were destroyed or scattered.

So overall, Manus' plan was flawed only because he didn't know that his allies had shifted their allegiance, and perhaps because of his rage he felt it necessary to be first to the fight. If I were hid, I would have send the more questionable Legions first (Night Lords, & Word Bearers) in the First Wave, because their recent censures would be reason to test their loyalty before trusting them to so vital a task as securing the Dropsite. I don't know if Manus had any reason to distrust the Iron Warriors or Alpha Legion though.


Wow, thanks that really clears Manus’s side of things up. Maybe it’s just the way the wiki presents it, ‘cause I didn’t get any of that out of my reading of it. J
Also, how reflective of “reality” would the artwork be? Because it still seems as though they were dropping three whole legions into be small confined space in front of a heavy defended fortified line, despite the complete freedom of movement that deploying from orbit would give them. The IW revealing their new allegiance is also described as the legion lined up in parade order shooting at the retreating Salamanders, who are also in ranks. Is this just a miscommunication in the way the fluff is written, or would the Space Marines actually have done this?

Grand Master Azrael
08-01-2014, 06:53
Poor Ferrus. If I could I would murder Fulgrim then further murder his corpse. I feel so sorry for Ferrus. I hate al those traitors (except for the Iron Warriors because they're cool)

Fizzy
08-01-2014, 07:26
Poor Ferrus. If I could I would murder Fulgrim then further murder his corpse. I feel so sorry for Ferrus. I hate al those traitors (except for the Iron Warriors because they're cool)

Pff the loyalists deserved it. Go Team Angron!

Grand Master Azrael
08-01-2014, 08:12
that's not very nice

agurus1
08-01-2014, 08:31
Poor Ferrus. If I could I would murder Fulgrim then further murder his corpse. I feel so sorry for Ferrus. I hate al those traitors (except for the Iron Warriors because they're cool)

Unfortunately for Manus, even of he had beaten Fulgrim and the Second Wave Legions had stayed loyal it is unlikely he would have survived, surrounded by enemies and weakened from the duel.

m1acca1551
08-01-2014, 08:40
Unfortunately for Manus, even of he had beaten Fulgrim and the Second Wave Legions had stayed loyal it is unlikely he would have survived, surrounded by enemies and weakened from the duel.

This is very true, would have been nice though to have seen him beat fulgrim up though, the way they make it seem is that fulgrim just executed him with out thought, yeah daemonic possession and all that but we are still talking about a primarch.

agurus1
08-01-2014, 08:44
Agreed, a more epic duel was needed.

Majorbookworm
08-01-2014, 09:22
Hmm, for some reason the text in my reply comment is invisible when un-highlighted, righto then.

Telemachus
08-01-2014, 12:32
Hmm, for some reason the text in my reply comment is invisible when un-highlighted, righto then. Click edit on your post.
Highlight your text.
In the centre of the toolbar at the top there's a capital A.
Click this and it'll show a drop down menu.
Select 'Automatic'.

That should fix it.

Nazguire
09-01-2014, 05:07
The duel between Fulgrim and Manus could have been epic, and I feel that Manus should have left Fulgrim with a few scars on his 'perfect' face. That could have been interesting as Fulgrim could have dealt with the injuries in a more extreme way than Lucius, leading to more screwed up things he does as time goes by.

Harada
09-01-2014, 05:41
I thought the first fight on Manus' flagship was handled far worse than the fight at the dropsite.

the one at the dropsite was brief, but brutal for both and from the way McNeil wrote it, it seemed likely Fulgrim would have gone the way of Mellish from saving private Ryan were it not for the extra power he got from the daemon sword allowing him to push Ferrus off him when he was easing fireblade towards him with his greater physical strength.It was a bit more realistic than the usual "they fought equally for days on end" thing you often get when god-like figures engage hand to hand, though maybe would have been better written for two Marines duelling rather than Primarch.

The first fight on the other hand made it seem like Manus was incapable of using his hammer in a duel(whereas fulgrim welded it effortlessly at the dropsite) and then he just lay there broken after destroying the sword, while fulgrim who was just as close to the explosion recovered far quicker.the whole thing was just weak and unconvincing.A better written, more inconclusive duel would have maintain tension much better in the build up to the final encounter between the two.

=Angel=
15-01-2014, 13:52
My 2c- the other primarchs knew it was a bad idea to rush the traitors. They were loyal to their irate brother though- if he'd gone in unsupported by the other legions he'd have doomed from he start.

Corax- Alright guys, looks like the numbers are in our favour. I''ve sent in some stealth teams to undermine their fortifications. Within 6 hours they should be getting into position. Vulkan, you start tweaking our meltaguns and flamers- I want tech crews working continuously for the next 48 hours.
Vulkan- Yeah, as we discussed, long range weaponry will be key here. We dont want to start going head to head with Angron's mob and Fulgrim's sword fighters. We take away their ability to strike at us and then accept their surrender. Nobody needs to die here..

Ferrus- Alright guys, I'm mad, lets do this- FERRUS MANUUUUUUUUSSS! (droppod and dropship noises)

Corax- By the... He just ran in.
Vulkan- Damnation! Stick to the plan, stick to the plan!
(more droppod, dropship noises)

OrganicHamster
15-01-2014, 14:18
My 2c- the other primarchs knew it was a bad idea to rush the traitors. They were loyal to their irate brother though- if he'd gone in unsupported by the other legions he'd have doomed from he start.

Corax- Alright guys, looks like the numbers are in our favour. I''ve sent in some stealth teams to undermine their fortifications. Within 6 hours they should be getting into position. Vulkan, you start tweaking our meltaguns and flamers- I want tech crews working continuously for the next 48 hours.
Vulkan- Yeah, as we discussed, long range weaponry will be key here. We dont want to start going head to head with Angron's mob and Fulgrim's sword fighters. We take away their ability to strike at us and then accept their surrender. Nobody needs to die here..

Ferrus- Alright guys, I'm mad, lets do this- FERRUS MANUUUUUUUUSSS! (droppod and dropship noises)

Corax- By the... He just ran in.
Vulkan- Damnation! Stick to the plan, stick to the plan!
(more droppod, dropship noises)

At least he got chicken.

Nkari
15-01-2014, 14:22
My 2c- the other primarchs knew it was a bad idea to rush the traitors. They were loyal to their irate brother though- if he'd gone in unsupported by the other legions he'd have doomed from he start.

Corax- Alright guys, looks like the numbers are in our favour. I''ve sent in some stealth teams to undermine their fortifications. Within 6 hours they should be getting into position. Vulkan, you start tweaking our meltaguns and flamers- I want tech crews working continuously for the next 48 hours.
Vulkan- Yeah, as we discussed, long range weaponry will be key here. We dont want to start going head to head with Angron's mob and Fulgrim's sword fighters. We take away their ability to strike at us and then accept their surrender. Nobody needs to die here..

Ferrus- Alright guys, I'm mad, lets do this- FERRUS MANUUUUUUUUSSS! (droppod and dropship noises)

Corax- By the... He just ran in.
Vulkan- Damnation! Stick to the plan, stick to the plan!
(more droppod, dropship noises)

Leeeeroy jenkins!..

jakejackjake
03-02-2014, 15:03
Why didn't they just do orbital bombardment again? Has to be a reason. I've read the books about it just dont remember

Lord Zarkov
03-02-2014, 18:26
IIRC to be sure they had destroyed the traitors rather than risk them being safe underground.


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