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Vipoid
07-01-2014, 13:47
Just a random thought, but does anyone think there should be a type of attack that negates ward saves - in the same manner that flaming attacks negate regeneration?

logan054
07-01-2014, 13:56
Before the botwd I would have said no, now not so sure, what I do think the game needs less of it instant death spells.

Shadoer
07-01-2014, 13:59
Well we already have those. We have 4 spells in the main rulebook and the Skaven 13th spell that completely bypasses wards.

Then there's the other Trickster Shard that forces a reroll on a successful save.

Otherwise, since Ward Saves are meant to represent a variety of things from a magical force field, to being able to deflect things with shield, and being able to matrix dodge incoming attacks... There shouldn't be a specific attack like "warp stone attack" which bypasses it.

Vipoid
07-01-2014, 14:09
Well we already have those. We have 4 spells in the main rulebook and the Skaven 13th spell that completely bypasses wards.

Not really.

I was talking about actual attacks - as in attacks that cause wounds. Not spells that just ignore the whole 'wounding' lark.

thormon
07-01-2014, 14:12
Would make sense as an upgrade (weapon rune?) for the deamonslayer. Other then that, it would make things pretty OP, although there are more units with wardsaves now.

Francis
07-01-2014, 14:23
Normal Ward saves? No. Daemonic ward saves? Yes. I would love to go back to a system where the ward saves of daemons were negated by magic weapons. Both fluffy and fun. It would also give players an incentive to take more magic items and spells in their lists, which is great since it would make my Banner of the World Dragon even better :D.

Shadoer
07-01-2014, 14:28
Not really.

I was talking about actual attacks - as in attacks that cause wounds. Not spells that just ignore the whole 'wounding' lark.

Yeah, I addressed that in the following line but I'll restate it and expand..

No there shouldn't be, ward saves currently represent a wide variety of abilities which include (but are not limited too)

- The Favor of a God
- Ability for a shield to push away an incoming attack
- Dodging
- Daemonic material from a realm beyond mortal understanding
- An uncanny ability to sense an incoming attack and counter it.
- A magical forcefield
- Resistance against specific attacks, such as fire attacks or magic missiles
- Partial invisibility
- A fog of blackness that is surrounding a charactor and or unit

The reason why there can be a specific attack like fire which negates regeneration is because regeneration refers to a very specific ability: the ability to regrow limbs, flesh, and organs. Fire is the antithesis of regeneration.

Since a ward save can refer to a wide variety of abilities, there shouldn't be one kind of attack (ie Warp Stone Weapons) which will bypass it entirely. Who's to say Warpstone has a very uncanny ability to hit a ninja or defeat the favor of the god Tzeentch?

Now in game play terms, no. Currently there is no Ward Save held by any side that is over powered. The best Ward Save in Close Combat you can get for most characters is a 4+, and other better ones are conditional.

The only exception to this is the Daemons of Chaos whom should have some way to get around the Banner of the World Dragon, but that's doesn't mean they should bypass the ward save... an ability that negates magical items like the banner would be just fine.

Vipoid
07-01-2014, 14:28
Normal Ward saves? No. Daemonic ward saves? Yes. I would love to go back to a system where the ward saves of daemons were negated by magic weapons. Both fluffy and fun. It would also give players an incentive to take more magic items and spells in their lists, which is great since it would make my Banner of the World Dragon even better :D.

Or, we could make it that magic attacks ignore all ward saves. Enjoy the 2+ save from BotWD... :evilgrin:

Francis
07-01-2014, 14:36
Or, we could make it that magic attacks ignore all ward saves. Enjoy the 2+ save from BotWD... :evilgrin:

Oh my godess.....:eek: the horror of it all . The whining would never stop :evilgrin:

Edit: oh and



The only exception to this is the Daemons of Chaos whom should have some way to get around the Banner of the World Dragon, but that's doesn't mean they should bypass the ward save... an ability that negates magical items like the banner would be just fine.

you sir are a killjoy.

SpanielBear
07-01-2014, 14:42
Forest Spirits say hi. Trust me, conditional ward saves are no kind of fun.

logan054
07-01-2014, 14:50
The only exception to this is the Daemons of Chaos whom should have some way to get around the Banner of the World Dragon, but that's doesn't mean they should bypass the ward save... an ability that negates magical items like the banner would be just fine.

The only good thing about banner of the world dragon is it adds power to things like ethereal units in a all comers environment (by reducing magical weapons) and makes lances a more viable choices in things like chaos knights and crushers, apart for that I don't think it should exist in it's current form, it doesn't take into account things like daemons have very few ways of dealing with the deathstar that contains the banner and just removes the risk of 6D6 broken spell rolling for one army. 2+ wardsave against magic would have been more than enough rather than 2+ wardsave against magical attacks.

Darnok
07-01-2014, 15:00
I say no. The point of ward saves is, that they are some protection that can not be negated at all. Some spells ignoring them is already too much in my opinion.

Spiney Norman
07-01-2014, 15:11
Its something I think we might see more of, there used to be a few magic items that ignored ward saves (6th and 8th edition blade of realities), they phased them out during 7th edition in what I assumed was an intentional move to make ward saves 'untouchable', but with the new BoR getting its ward-chopping ability back (even if it is crazy expensive).

I agree that its tempting when they come out with an item as flabbergastingly stupid as the BotWD, to want to nerf ward saves all over the place, but the ability to get around wards should stay exceedingly rare and expensive.

IMHO it is bad practice to let one or two 'brain-fart' moments from a rules designer drive the progress of the whole game. We survived the 7th ed pendent of Khaleth without nerfing ward saves, I'm sure we can survive the BotWD too.

logan054
07-01-2014, 15:28
I'm sure we can survive the BotWD too.

I'm pretty sure the item is designed as to change up the meta and to get people to rely less on magic to deal with anything while making the standard practice of sticking a run on each of your warmachines more risky, good idea but it could have been slightly different so it worked in conjunction with the high magic lore attribute and/or magic resistance.

Shadoer
07-01-2014, 15:31
I'm pretty sure the item is designed as to change up the meta and to get people to rely less on magic to deal with anything while making the standard practice of sticking a run on each of your warmachines more risky, good idea but it could have been slightly different so it worked in conjunction with the high magic lore attribute and/or magic resistance.

Or just greatly increase the point value. If it was a 125pts and restricted to a bab, suddenly it wouldn't be nearly as bad and would still change up the meta.

logan054
07-01-2014, 15:45
5+ wardsave magical attacks at the same price point wouldn't be as bad either, gives you more of a reason to use the high lore over a BRB lore.

Yowzo
07-01-2014, 16:43
Well we already have those. We have 4 spells in the main rulebook and the Skaven 13th spell that completely bypasses wards.

Then there's the other Trickster Shard that forces a reroll on a successful save.

And the blade of realities. Not that I have ever seen that on the table, though.

Wesser
07-01-2014, 17:00
Yes

I like situational abilities because can help you against certain scenarios and can help punish beardy play

For instance

Other Trickster's Shard is a cool item
Sword of Anti-Heroes
Nightshroud
Blades of Ignore Armour

And many more are those who reward you if used in the right circumstances, but otherwise have Little application. When your ampire Lord runs afoul of some Phoenix Guard you feel glad you bought him the shard, but if you run into a Skaven army...well you wasted points.

We need more items and skills like this, BUT... I would prefer such abilities to like lower Ward saves by -1, making them reroll Ward saves or only allowing the target to attempt either armour OR Ward save. I would be careful of total nullification, but something to scale back Ward save would be welcome because frankly the amounts of units thyat have or can get regen or Ward saves is almost out of control. There's a fair bit of Fire Attacks around, but right now Ward saves are inflated. I'd like something to threaten them a bit

Spiney Norman
07-01-2014, 18:28
And the blade of realities. Not that I have ever seen that on the table, though.

I've used it a couple of times on a Cowboy Oldblood, but it suffers from the same problems as every other 100pt magic weapon, it doesn't allow the bearer to take a ward himself. Its a mean challenge tool though.

Captain Collius
07-01-2014, 18:29
Yeah as Yowzo said everyone is forgetting Blade of realities in a unit with flaming banner its kinda like no saves are possible.

Spiney Norman
07-01-2014, 18:33
Yeah as Yowzo said everyone is forgetting Blade of realities in a unit with flaming banner its kinda like no saves are possible.

Its just a bit of a shame that cold one riders can't take a magic banner any more really, or perhaps they saw that one coming...

Yowzo
07-01-2014, 18:36
Its just a bit of a shame that cold one riders can't take a magic banner any more really, or perhaps they saw that one coming...

Even more of a shame that the flaming banner doesn't affect magic weapons.

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Blinder
07-01-2014, 19:08
I think having a couple expensive items such as the Blade of Realities around to keep otherwise moderate characters honest about their ward saves is a good idea, but wholesale "no save" attacks are already far too common in the form of the "or die" spells (no it isn't wounds, but...). I'd agree that wards are being handed out far too liberally and some of them should be removed/reduced/more limited/pricier, but I think the "fixes" need to happen with the saves, not with attacks. (to be honest I'm not even entirely convinced by the OTS, given the wild swings in value it can have).

Kahadras
07-01-2014, 19:21
If it was a 125pts and restricted to a bab, suddenly it wouldn't be nearly as bad and would still change up the meta.

Well it would certainly make it a pretty useless item.

theunwantedbeing
07-01-2014, 19:23
We wouldn't need any ward save negating items if ward saves didn't work all the time or weren't as high as they currently are.

A 4+ ward as a common item was a terrible idea and now every lord seems to carry one.
If it was combat only it wouldn't be quite so useful, or if it only worked vs non-magical attacks, or both!

Ideally the best constant ward save available would be a 5+, with the 4+ and above ones being limited to not working vs a lot of things.

A ward negating weapon would make sense, although it wouldn't be a whole lot of use if it didn't also provide some other more useful benefit as well.

Urgat
07-01-2014, 23:00
I say no. The point of ward saves is, that they are some protection that can not be negated at all. Some spells ignoring them is already too much in my opinion.

That. On the other hand, just like regen and co, it shouldn't be as common as it is now. They all used to be very rare...

Wesser
07-01-2014, 23:37
That. On the other hand, just like regen and co, it shouldn't be as common as it is now. They all used to be very rare...

Which is why it's an issue

I mean we got:

Common Magic Items
Army Book Items
Parry saves
Spells (Warrior Priest/ Tomb Kings spell)
The Whole High Magic Lore
Most of Bretonnia
All Daemons
Individual units such as Phoenix Guards, War Altar/Luminark/Coven Throne, Sister of Slaughter etc..


It's become too common to be "special case" anymore...and noone says anti-ward saves have to be common or cheap...

Vipoid
07-01-2014, 23:48
We wouldn't need any ward save negating items if ward saves didn't work all the time or weren't as high as they currently are.

A 4+ ward as a common item was a terrible idea and now every lord seems to carry one.
If it was combat only it wouldn't be quite so useful, or if it only worked vs non-magical attacks, or both!

Ideally the best constant ward save available would be a 5+, with the 4+ and above ones being limited to not working vs a lot of things.

I think that's an interesting point - ward saves do seem to have become much more prevalent.

I hadn't actually considered the 4+ ward save item in the BRB, but I believe you're right. If there's going to be barely anything that negates ward saves, it seems like any 4+ ward save item should either only work some of the time, or come with a downside of some kind.

Darnok
07-01-2014, 23:53
That. On the other hand, just like regen and co, it shouldn't be as common as it is now. They all used to be very rare...

I agree. Ward saves should be something very special. A banner handing out the whole thing like there is a sale at Walmart is... just wrong.

Yowzo
08-01-2014, 07:56
A 4+ ward as a common item was a terrible idea and now every lord seems to carry one.
If it was combat only it wouldn't be quite so useful, or if it only worked vs non-magical attacks, or both!

As it should. Lords are squishy enough in the current world of step up and multiple ranks fighting.

The only lords people have trouble killing nowadays is the Tzeentch 3+ ward, re-rolling ones. The rest are not a problem since the PoK lord disappeared.

Urgat
08-01-2014, 09:08
Which is why it's an issue

I mean we got:

Common Magic Items
Army Book Items
Parry saves
Spells (Warrior Priest/ Tomb Kings spell)
The Whole High Magic Lore
Most of Bretonnia
All Daemons
Individual units such as Phoenix Guards, War Altar/Luminark/Coven Throne, Sister of Slaughter etc..


It's become too common to be "special case" anymore...and noone says anti-ward saves have to be common or cheap...

I'd rather we just cut down on the numbers rather than change the rules. And I don't think WFB needs yet another microlayer of stoner paper scissors.

Spiney Norman
08-01-2014, 10:29
We wouldn't need any ward save negating items if ward saves didn't work all the time or weren't as high as they currently are.

A 4+ ward as a common item was a terrible idea and now every lord seems to carry one.
If it was combat only it wouldn't be quite so useful, or if it only worked vs non-magical attacks, or both!

Ideally the best constant ward save available would be a 5+, with the 4+ and above ones being limited to not working vs a lot of things.

A ward negating weapon would make sense, although it wouldn't be a whole lot of use if it didn't also provide some other more useful benefit as well.

Rubbish, last edition most armies had a 4++ item in their MI list anyway, some had better than this, wood elves still have a handful of conditional 3++ items and a regen magic armour. I think a bit more protection for crucial characters was warranted in 8th edition as well, combat is a lot more dangerous because of fighting in multiple ranks and step up allowing models to fight even when the front rank has died (which means that a character can potentially have between 6 and 12 models attacking him if they're all on the same size base), unless there is going to be some kind of restriction on targeting characters like there is in 40k then characters need all the protection they can get.

Romark
08-01-2014, 10:46
As it should. Lords are squishy enough in the current world of step up and multiple ranks fighting.

The only lords people have trouble killing nowadays is the Tzeentch 3+ ward, re-rolling ones. The rest are not a problem since the PoK lord disappeared.

I miss the PoK Lord :( Happy days.

There are a couple of things ruining it, but on the whole i'd say it's fine. Wards (as pointed out by Shadoer) come in many guises:

- The Favor of a God
- Ability for a shield to push away an incoming attack
- Dodging
- Daemonic material from a realm beyond mortal understanding
- An uncanny ability to sense an incoming attack and counter it.
- A magical forcefield
- Resistance against specific attacks, such as fire attacks or magic missiles
- Partial invisibility
- A fog of blackness that is surrounding a charactor and or unit


So i think that should stop any (more) 'Ignores Ward Saves items'.

Though, Daemons should revert imo.

Captain Collius
08-01-2014, 17:40
Well I agree ward saves may be a bit too prevalent. Hell Phoenix guard can stop anything dead in its tracks they may not kill it but you'll have a hell of a time killing them.

Lowering the number of ward saves available in the game would be really interesting. But the only way too balance it a at all is too remove test or die spells.

theunwantedbeing
08-01-2014, 18:24
Rubbish, last edition most armies had a 4++ item in their MI list anyway

Skaven
Beastmen
Ogre Kingdoms
Lizardmen
Orcs&Goblins
Daemons of Chaos

Those didn't.

Spiney Norman
08-01-2014, 21:44
Skaven
Beastmen
Ogre Kingdoms
Lizardmen
Orcs&Goblins
Daemons of Chaos

Those didn't.

Uh huh, so if 6 out of 15 armies did not, 9 out of 15 armies did, I'd say the word "most" was appropriate in that situation. In addition daemons had ward saves across the board (Tzeentch daemons got a 4++ as standard with the locus of Tz), so the new common items didn't really alter much did they?

logan054
08-01-2014, 21:57
Skaven
Beastmen
Ogre Kingdoms
Lizardmen
Orcs&Goblins
Daemons of Chaos

Those didn't.

WoC didn't either, they had a magic armour that gave a 4+ wardsave against non-magical attacks, other than that the best wardsave you could get was a 5+ and only with MoT.

kramplarv
11-01-2014, 11:31
As it should. Lords are squishy enough in the current world of step up and multiple ranks fighting.

The only lords people have trouble killing nowadays is the Tzeentch 3+ ward, re-rolling ones. The rest are not a problem since the PoK lord disappeared.

My chaos lord with scaly skin, allure of slaanesh, barded steed/steed of slaanesh, shield, dawnstone, other tricksters shard, glittering scales, sword of swift slaying humbly, disagree. :)

and his friend; Lord Hellfire with scaly skin, hellfiresword, charmed shield, disc of tzeentch, talisman of endurance support that claim. :)

theunwantedbeing
11-01-2014, 12:27
Uh huh, so if 6 out of 15 armies did not, 9 out of 15 armies did, I'd say the word "most" was appropriate in that situation. In addition daemons had ward saves across the board (Tzeentch daemons got a 4++ as standard with the locus of Tz), so the new common items didn't really alter much did they?

The WoC 4+ ward was armour that didn't work vs magical attacks.
The Wood elf needs you to be near a wood.
The VC one gave stupidity.

"Most" armies did not get a flat 4+ ward item.
"Most" of the armies that got a 4+ ward save item of some form only got the one, not two.

Now all but Dwarves and Daemons have access to at least two 4+ ward saves.

So it's a pretty big alteration.

Spiney Norman
11-01-2014, 12:38
The WoC 4+ ward was armour that didn't work vs magical attacks.
The Wood elf needs you to be near a wood.
The VC one gave stupidity.

"Most" armies did not get a flat 4+ ward item.
"Most" of the armies that got a 4+ ward save item of some form only got the one, not two.

Now all but Dwarves and Daemons have access to at least two 4+ ward saves.

So it's a pretty big alteration.

Almost as big an alteration as the number of attacks coming at a character in combat (having been multiplied by at factor of two or three at least, even ignoring what step up has done).

I would argue that characters need to be more resilient to deal with the vast increase in damage that units can dish out. Last edition if your character struck before the unit he was fighting all he had to do was kill the three models in front of him and he would not take any hits back, now, whenever he strikes he is probably facing the three models in front of him and the next rank, or in many cases, two ranks of warriors behind them. That is maybe 9 models attacking him if he is not in a challenge.

I think we can forgive a slight increase in the availability if ward saves.

And to correct one small inaccuracy in your post, wood elves have the following ward save items
1 talisman that gives the character, his mount AND his entire unit a 5++
1 talisman that confers a 3++ on the character vs mundane attacks
1 talisman that confers a 3++ on the character AND his mount until it is failed
1 talisman that confers a 4++ vs ranged and magic missiles only
1 talisman that confers a 2++ when the character is reduced to 1 wound
1 magic armour that confers a 4++ when near a wood
1 magic armour that confers regen (4+)

I think they're pretty set for most situations when it comes to ward saves don't you?

Vipoid
11-01-2014, 12:51
I would argue that characters need to be more resilient to deal with the vast increase in damage that units can dish out. Last edition if your character struck before the unit he was fighting all he had to do was kill the three models in front of him and he would not take any hits back, now, whenever he strikes he is probably facing the three models in front of him and the next rank, or in many cases, two ranks of warriors behind them. That is maybe 9 models attacking him if he is not in a challenge.

Something of an aside, but it seems like this could be dealt with by changing the way attacks are allocated - e.g. by making it that all supporting attacks must be against the enemy rank and file - rather than allowing them to single out characters.

Spiney Norman
11-01-2014, 12:59
Something of an aside, but it seems like this could be dealt with by changing the way attacks are allocated - e.g. by making it that all supporting attacks must be against the enemy rank and file - rather than allowing them to single out characters.

I would like it to be a general principal that characters in units cannot be targeted by the rank and file at all, if you want to kill a boss IMHO you should have to throw out a challenge for it. This is already how combat operates in 40k and its one of the things I think could transfer over pretty well.

Urgat
11-01-2014, 18:17
That'd make mages hidding in bunkers a real pain, and picture my gobs filling their front ranks with big/warbosses...

Yowzo
11-01-2014, 18:18
I would like it to be a general principal that characters in units cannot be targeted by the rank and file at all, if you want to kill a boss IMHO you should have to throw out a challenge for it. This is already how combat operates in 40k and its one of the things I think could transfer over pretty well.

No way. Then you would have mages hiding in hordes for basically the whole game.

The only drawback of some magic users is that they're squishy in combat. Let's keep it that way.


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dalezzz
11-01-2014, 18:53
I could get behind support attacks should be directed at the unit rather than a specific model , just makes sense to me

Vipoid
11-01-2014, 19:07
No way. Then you would have mages hiding in hordes for basically the whole game.

The only drawback of some magic users is that they're squishy in combat. Let's keep it that way.


To be fair, that might also encourage GW to price wizards correctly - i.e. based on their magic and versatility, rather than on combat skills they'll never use.

Spiney Norman
11-01-2014, 19:09
To be fair, that might also encourage GW to price wizards correctly - i.e. based on their magic and versatility, rather than on combat skills they'll never use.

If you can think of a way to convince a GW designer to price anything correctly then please let me know

Vipoid
11-01-2014, 19:13
If you can think of a way to convince a GW designer to price anything correctly then please let me know

Stand behind them with a revolver? :evilgrin:

Urgat
13-01-2014, 09:55
To be fair, that might also encourage GW to price wizards correctly - i.e. based on their magic and versatility, rather than on combat skills they'll never use.

Sure... excepted when they do use them, of course. Then they get those skills for free? Last battle my warboss charged a chaos sorcerer (well, his unit) and the mutated thing managed to wound my big bad orc on wyvern coz he's no wimp. I suggest they keep paying for what they have, ok?

Snake1311
13-01-2014, 11:15
Awww diddums. Did you kill it afterwards?

Vipoid
13-01-2014, 12:15
Sure... excepted when they do use them, of course. Then they get those skills for free? Last battle my warboss charged a chaos sorcerer (well, his unit) and the mutated thing managed to wound my big bad orc on wyvern coz he's no wimp. I suggest they keep paying for what they have, ok?

How does that relate to what I actually said?

I'm talking about wizards that are cheap because they have WS3 and 1 attack, despite being models that should never see combat anyway. And, I'm saying that such models should be more expensive - not less.

Urgat
13-01-2014, 12:41
Awww diddums. Did you kill it afterwards?
Actually I don't remember (erm, that was only two days ago, old age I guess...), but I won the combat nonetheless and ran the unit over so it's ok :p

How does that relate to what I actually said?

I'm talking about wizards that are cheap because they have WS3 and 1 attack, despite being models that should never see combat anyway. And, I'm saying that such models should be more expensive - not less.

Ok, I got it backwards then, but I stand on my position: if a mere unit champion can kill a goblin shaman, it's fine with me if he's cheaper because he totally sucks in combat. It may or may not have any impact in many games, but when it does, well, that's when the price comes into account. Otherwise, you can also apply the same logic to warmachines, a skaven crew is cheaper than an ogre one, so they should cost cheaper. In the case of a warmachine or in the case of a wizard, killing them in melee is a valid tactic, so their flaws or values should be taken into account, whether it happens often or not.
It's like people who say khorne cannons should cost less because you can't use it both at a chariot or a cannon at the same time :/

Snake1311
14-01-2014, 10:01
Now now, i dont think there is anyone deluded enough to say skillcannons should be cheaper ;)

Now, you are right that certain wizard benefits, like t4 or asf, should be taken into account; however as those wizards shouldnt really be seeing combat and utilizing those in the first place, the costing should be a lot less than for combat characters.

Urgat
14-01-2014, 10:24
Now now, i dont think there is anyone deluded enough to say skillcannons should be cheaper ;)
You wish. I've seen the same for the ironblaster actually.


Now, you are right that certain wizard benefits, like t4 or asf, should be taken into account; however as those wizards shouldnt really be seeing combat and utilizing those in the first place, the costing should be a lot less than for combat characters.
I disagree, because that's when it comes into play that it's important. A sorcerer that pretty much autopops in melee is a wizard that has an exploitable weakness, cost has to be taken into account. As for wizards that shouldn't really be seeing combat, I don't know about you, but if I can get one in melee with anything, I will. And I have plenty of fast stuff that I will gladly sacrify for just that purpose if the opportunity is offered. Now my wolf riders can slay a skink wizard easy enough, but they can't do that with a WoC one. But they can get to both easily enough if I dedicate them to that task (you can stop only so many units and I routinely pop 4 wolf units). Well I have nothing much to add to that, I think my point is clear.