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Lord Squidar
09-01-2014, 22:11
Was thinking about this and pretty much every single major race in 40K was created or manipulated into something other than their "base" form, barring humans (back to this point later). Thus every race is created by intelligent design, and created for a purpose.

Eldar and Orks we know to have been created by the Old Ones as psychic warriors and a worker race respectively, although orks dont follow their design anymore after the disappearance of the brain boyz.

Tau were supposedly created by the Eldar themselves, as a meat shield perhaps, or a bright new light in the universe? Or perhaps before the fall for laffs (its only 10k years ago, we know modern Tau evolved 6k years ago, maybe some punk eldar kid made proto Tau for target practise, who knows!)

Tyranids create and manipulate themselves. Obviously they come from somewhere too but the intelligent design theme is oddly blended with survival of the fittest in the Tyranid life cycle, but theme still persists.

Necrons - We know the Necrontyr were not created by the Old Ones, so maybe their wretched forms were the result of natural evolution in the light of a dying star. Maybe they had some older creation myths. But the Necrons as a race were certainly created by the C'tan...

Primarchs/Space Marines - designed by the Emperor and created for the purpose of waging war and leading mankind.

Every single race of significance was created by intelligent design... except humans! We have nothing in the 40k background to suggest otherwise, but I think its possible that chaos created humans...

For chaos, humans are the perfect vessel or race to have around. We are psychic so our emotions and souls project into the warp. We breed fast, really fast, not ork fast but the imperium is filled with uncountable trillions apon trillions of tasty human souls. We are easily corrupted and manipulated and seem to be chock a block with character flaws other races dont have. We mutate easily - in 40k years there are bird and fish men, navigators, beast man, squats ogryns ratlings etc. never mind all the mutations and stuff that happens to Joe Average for picking up forbidden books. Even humans today display vast genetic variation or mutation within family groups.

So considering that the overwhelming theme in 40k is one of creationism or intelligent design, is it too much of a stretch of the imagination to suggest that the chaos gods, in their primordial unawakened state prior to the rise of humanity, expended some energy to mutate an early homonid's DNA to make it more suseptable to mutation in the hopes that humanity, or something much like it would arrise and give them strength through their weaknesses and give the gods enough power to rise and compete with the C'tan and Old Ones?

m1acca1551
10-01-2014, 00:06
On the other hand did some one think of humanity as that never ending source of hope and heroism that would be the positive to chaos's negative influence?

Chaos looks to use corruption humanity to use as it's ultimate tool to rule the universe, some one could equally be using them to resist chaos in order to prevent them from ruling.

GAAAH way to early for an In depth on 40k creationism haha bloody good topic though will look forward to seeing how this topic EVOLVES :)

Gustovic
10-01-2014, 01:14
Humans were created by the old ones as well. They just din't receive all the planned evolutionary thingy that eldar and oks got.

Lord Squidar
10-01-2014, 04:59
I think its 100% guaranteed that the Old Ones did not create humanity. The war in heaven took place 65 million years in the past, earth was a completely different planet very unconducive to human life, and the humans had no part in the war in heaven when you have limitless krorks to build things and eldar to crush planets with their mind bullets.

Exorcist
10-01-2014, 05:16
I think creationism goes a bit far. The idea of creatonism is that a godlike being creates a species from scratch. And as i remember, the old ones used primitive forms of life and altered it. They saw the resiliant spore creatures and created orcs etc.

And this in my mind is one of the aspects where the humans really stand out from the other races. They were left alone to evolve on their own. (Well, now the Tau have that too) So, maybe this is why chaos finds humans so yummi, noone geneticly manipulated a falesafe against the warp into the human DNA. But thats speculation.

As a person who finds the idea of creationism laughable in RL, i still enjoy the fluff about the old ones and how they *created* the races, other then humans.

On part of the Tyranids, ive read a short story once, cant remember its name, but it was about a species that started evolving so fast that the process got self aware. It started altering the DNA of the child before it was born according to the information it received from the mother. (It was really weird)
Thats how i imagine the hivemind. Its the opposite of humans, we alter our surroundings to make them fit our needs, where the tyranids alter themselves to fit their surroundings and enemies better.

There are so many themes in 40k, creationism with the eldar or orcs, evolution going batshit crazy with the tyranids, the small line between god and mortal (Emperor), Eternal Damnation or salvation etc. I think there are many influences you can look on, and many different angles to look at all the various species.

Lord Squidar
10-01-2014, 08:01
Well I did specify that several races have been modified versus outright created in my OP, I don't know the word to describe the full scale engineering of a race, creationism seemed to fit.

P.s. don't want to turn this into a science versus religion debate, both clearly are right and have a place in 40k, which is an escape from reality where you are free to have your own beliefs.

As for the hive mind, thats exactly how I imagine it myself. Some kind of virus that gets out of hand and goes from there onwards. I think that it would be natural evolution for it to get to the stage of an organism, but what the tyranids do to themselves now by engineering new critters, even between generations, is something like the creation I was talking about above.

And yes, it makes sense that humans, as the one pure naturally evolved major race would be juicy to chaos since they lack all the engineered anti chaos fail safes. maybe its a bit of both, chaos mutated a homonid somewhere along the way but accepted that the result would be their greatest source of energy and their one potential doom, seems chaos is fickley enough to me.

spacemonkeymojo
10-01-2014, 15:02
I think people are bringing real world beliefs too much into the discussion, while creationism in reality is discussing that a powerful being created existence and humanity, the topic is advising that chaos created humans.

I disagree with this, as the vision show to the primarchs of the Alpha Legions hows that once Horus eliminated humanity, it would take chaos with it and therefore implies they feed on humanity. I don't really understand how a dependent entity could exist before the host it is dependent upon. However, then again, with chaos forces logic does not commonly apply.

I personally do not think humans were created by chaos elements, we don't even know how the emperor was created as they are iffy now about the star child theory.

El_Machinae
10-01-2014, 18:05
Hmmm, I'd not say so much 'created'. Humans naturally evolved. So did the Kroot and Tau. Tau were potentially 'uplifted' by the Eldar. The Necrontyr evolved but then went extinct when the Necrons were created. No news on the origins of the Old Ones.

Loginis
10-01-2014, 18:14
Here's my pet theory: the world of Warhammer Fantasy a Petri dish of the Old Ones during the War in Heaven. They "quarantined" the warp around it and released various experimental races to see what happens. Because of the "quarantine" only a few million worshipers were necessary to make a new god.
Time goes on, they choose the orcs and elves to create orks and eldars, but judge the humans and other races as failures. The two chosen races "inherit" their ancestors gods (Gork&Mork, the elf/eldar pantheon), while chaos gods are weak, but they still exist.

So chaos uses all of it's powers to mutate some random mammals in a random planet, and 60 million years later the galaxy if filled with something similar to their favourite pet race: modern humans.

Lord Inquisitor
10-01-2014, 18:15
The Tyranids seem more like natural selection gone wild, where the organisms can control their own evolution rather than creating new things from scratch. This isn't even that far fetched, real life organisms seem to be able to control their rate of evolution, in some cases by controlling the amount of selfing/sexual reproduction and at a deeper level it is likely that most if not all organisms "control" their own mutation rate (or perhaps put a more reputable way, "have their mutation rate selected upon"). The Tyranids are a lot more scifi in that regard of course but the idea of a hive organism able to control the traits expressed by its workers/soldiers is actually something that is not at all that crazy.

That said, the genestealers are always a bit of an unknown as to exactly how they originated. I always liked the idea they could be biological weapons that destroyed their former masters. Of course that idea pre-dated the Tyranids themselves.

Askil the Undecided
10-01-2014, 23:46
Not having the "our god is the creator" card to throw around might also be one of the reasons Imperial faith is so fragile.

It kills babies, hunts down those who are different and burns those who refuse to bend knee to it`s beliefs but the Ecclesiarchy still draws the line at mindless creationist nonsense, unlike some churches I could mention.

It`s funy isn`t it? The uberchurch of grim darkness is less awful than the real one?

madprophet
11-01-2014, 02:22
The answer is in the most basic fluff of the game.:cheese:

"It is the 41st Millennium. For more than a hundred centuries the Emperor of Mankind has sat immobile on the Golden Throne of Earth. He is the master of mankind by the will of the gods and master of a million worlds by the might of his inexhaustible armies. He is a rotting carcass writhing invisibly with power from the Dark Age of Technology. He is the Carrion Lord of the vast Imperium of Man for whom a thousand souls are sacrificed every day so that he may never truly die.Yet even in his deathless state, the Emperor continues his eternal vigilance. Mighty battlefleets cross the daemon-infested miasma of the Warp, the only route between distant stars, their way lit by the Astronomican, the psychic manifestation of the Emperor's will. Vast armies give battle in His name on uncounted worlds. Greatest amongst his soldiers are the Adeptus Astartes, the Space Marines, bio-engineered super-warriors. Their comrades in arms are legion: the Imperial Guard and countless planetary defence forces, the ever-vigilant Inquisition and the tech-priests of the Adeptus Mechanicus to name only a few. But for all their multitudes, they are barely enough to hold off the ever-present threat to humanity from aliens, heretics, mutants -- and far, far worse. To be a man in such times is to be one amongst untold billions. It is to live in the cruelest and most bloody regime imaginable. These are the tales of those times. Forget the power of technology and science, for so much has been forgotten, never to be relearned. Forget the promise of progress and understanding, for in the grim dark future there is only war. There is no peace amongst the stars, only an eternity of carnage and slaughter, and the laughter of thirsting gods."

By the will of the gods....

Mankind was created.
The Emperor became the Master of Man
The Imperium was formed.

We are told up front that the "gods" (whoever THEY might be) created man and the Emperor... These gods may or may not predate the other races in the game but it seems they are the source of all things 40k... (personally, I think they have names like Priestly, Chambers, et al but that's just me):angel:

Voss
11-01-2014, 02:29
On the other hand did some one think of humanity as that never ending source of hope and heroism that would be the positive to chaos's negative influence?

Haha. No.

The chaos gods were helped along by humanities negative emotions.

Remember, this is the grim dark. Nothing is positive, grants hope or displays heroism. Only delays the inevitable.

Born Again
11-01-2014, 07:56
It's in the Realm of Chaos books that the Chaos Gods awakened throughout humanity's rise, with 3 of the main 4 awakening by the dark ages. Sure, there's the whole time has no meaning in the warp thing, but the intention seems to have been that humans fueled the creation of the Chaos Gods, not the other way around. Also, as far as I'm aware, they couldn't do it even if they wanted to. The Chaos Gods can corrupt and influence, but their power is ultimately confined to the Warp and couldn't create a race in the material universe from scratch.
I know the book has sparked a lot of discussion and many people disregard it, but in [I]Xenology[I] it's heavily implied humans were made by the Old Ones, or at least, their earliest predecessors who then evolved of their own accord.
Humanity doesn't seem to have ruled out the idea of creationism in the 41st Millenium, it just seems to have little to no interest in it. Human history virtually starts with the Great Crusade, as almost everything before was lost in the Age of Strife, so almost no record of prior religions would exist. They're surely aware that god-like beings exist however, being they're the greatest enemy facing the Imperium. Should one believe humans were created by a beneficient god opposed to the Chaos gods, the Ecclisiarchy likely wouldn't mind, provided your worship was still ultimately directed towards the Emperor, and not the God. Whereas a modern religion might worship a god and view a figure like the Emperor as a saint, the roles have been somewhat reversed in the Imperium.

Idaan
11-01-2014, 09:19
Actually, the Imperial Creed doesn't have a canon position on the origins of Mankind, probably to better accomodate indigenous beliefs - the missionaries don't have to change the entire cosmogony, just say that the old gods have now given their powers to the God-Emperor because (put made up story here). At least one faction of Ecclesiarchy believes that the Emperor created the entire universe as a test for Mankind - cf. Drusian Dissidents in the Dark Heresy books. Others still might believe that he's a man who ascended to become an overbeing, Buddha-style. There are probably millions of versions of the story.


@OP: what you're saying might be true from the point of view of the wargame, in which most playable races were created, modified or controlled by higher beings. But it is not necessarily true in-universe. There are loads of minor Xenos species that weren't created by the Old Ones, but evolved naturally, for instance the Thyrrus, Q'orl, Vespids, etc, etc.

TheDungen
11-01-2014, 09:32
I'd say the old ones intervened in human evolution forcing it down a path they desired. There are too many similarities with the eldar to the completely random. No that reeks of genetic templating.

PikeyDras
11-01-2014, 11:11
Among their creations also were early Mankind (http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Human), tree beasts that were part of their ecosystem but otherwise had no greater role defined for them by the Old Ones

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Old_ones#.UtEz3J5_uUg

ryng_sting
11-01-2014, 13:29
Was thinking about this and pretty much every single major race in 40K was created or manipulated into something other than their "base" form, barring humans (back to this point later). Thus every race is created by intelligent design, and created for a purpose.

It would be more accurate to say 'adapted' or 'upgraded', not created.


Eldar and Orks we know to have been created by the Old Ones as psychic warriors and a worker race respectively, although orks dont follow their design anymore after the disappearance of the brain boyz.

See above, and 'the Krork' were developed as defenders for their strongholds.


Tau were supposedly created by the Eldar themselves, as a meat shield perhaps, or a bright new light in the universe?

The only hint of Eldar involvement comes from Xenology, and refers to the development of the Ethereal caste. Assuming that still counts as canon, of course.


Tyranids create and manipulate themselves.

Where did the first Tyranid come from?


But the Necrons as a race were certainly created by the C'tan

More of a product line than a race, perhaps, when they were reborn into metal bodies.


We have nothing in the 40k background to suggest otherwise, but I think its possible that chaos created humans...

Chaos pre-dates the human race, but has developed alongside the evolution of intelligent species. Creation in the material universe, and on a galactic scale, simply isn't their thing.


So considering that the overwhelming theme in 40k is one of creationism or intelligent design

It isn't. It's war and all the messy randomness involved in life and survival in a hostile universe.

No disrespect intended, but whenever you see a term such as 'intelligent design', it means there is going to be a ceiling limit on the level of intelligence involved.

Anima
11-01-2014, 23:41
The 3e Codex Necrons has this to say:

"Long ago, before the Fall, the Mon-keigh were nothing. They were comical tree-beasts, part of the eco system of their world, but with no greater role defined for them by the Old Ones. That was before the God War between the C'tan-led Necrons and the Old Ones supported by their successor races, had almost consumed the galaxy. In the aftermath of the conflict many worlds were devastated, and it took time to rebuild them. In this power vacuum the lesser creations of the Old Ones, such as the Mon-keigh, developed in unforeseeable ways. Raw, elemental evolution took a hold, turning these noisy but harmless beasts into the life form that now infested a million worlds."

Majorbookworm
12-01-2014, 09:46
I thought the War in Heaven was 65 million years ago, vastly predating the evolution of humanity in any recognisable form, which rebuts the idea of an Old One creation. I think the only races left from that time (or their evolutionary descendants at any rate) are the Orks, Eldar and Necrons.

Azulthar
12-01-2014, 09:52
See above, and 'the Krork' were developed as defenders for their strongholds.
This.

I know it's a bit off-topic, but Orks were not 'developed' as builders.

El_Machinae
12-01-2014, 13:18
I thought the War in Heaven was 65 million years ago, vastly predating the evolution of humanity in any recognisable form, which rebuts the idea of an Old One creation. I think the only races left from that time (or their evolutionary descendants at any rate) are the Orks, Eldar and Necrons.

65 million years ago was ~asteroid strike time, and our ancestors were small, little rodent-like things. It was the time of the T-Rex. The brontosaurus(ish) dinosaurs were around ~85 million years earlier.

Lord Squidar
12-01-2014, 15:11
Does the new tyranid codex have anything to say about the origins of the race?

Lord Damocles
12-01-2014, 16:39
I think the only races left from that time (or their evolutionary descendants at any rate) are the Orks, Eldar and Necrons.
Jokaero (Codex: Necrons (3rd ed.), pg.26) and possibly Hrud (Xenology) were/are around.

Mellow
13-01-2014, 08:23
The Dinosaurs were created by the Old Ones during the time before time, hoping that using evolutionary guidance they could evolve into a powerful space faring race.

Unfortunately the Necrontyr could predict future events ... fearful as to what the "Terrible Lizards" would eventually become, they hurled a giant asteroid at the Planet destroying them before they had a chance to defend themselves.



Well that's what I think :)

Polaria
13-01-2014, 12:28
Humans were created by the old ones as well. They just din't receive all the planned evolutionary thingy that eldar and oks got.


I think its 100% guaranteed that the Old Ones did not create humanity. The war in heaven took place 65 million years in the past, earth was a completely different planet very unconducive to human life, and the humans had no part in the war in heaven when you have limitless krorks to build things and eldar to crush planets with their mind bullets.

Old Ones certainly did not create or have anything else to do with humans. However, old fluff in Xenology and 3rd edition Necron Codex does hint that Necrons may have manipulated human genes in the dawn of the human race. In light of more recent 5th edition Necron Codex this would most probably mean that the Praetorians did mess with human race back in time... Which would not be surprising since they most certaily did mess with several other younger races as well.

Lord Squidar
13-01-2014, 21:34
It would explain why Necrons look like human skeletons, maybe we share an anatomy with the Necrontyr. Actually would be pretty cool, the Old Ones create the Eldar as the perfect form the Necrontyr wanted to both mock and fight the necrons. Necrons attempt their own version (humans) and it fails, because they dont have the skills, humans end up being a flawed race. Perfect except for the time lines, humans on earth -65 million years ago is a big no no.

Oh wait...

commonly held sci fi possibility is that humans come from Mars. Combine this with the belief that the void dragon lives inside Mars itself. maybe he is the one who created proto humans to live on mars, then a habitable human paradise. something goes wrong, they go to earth instead and mars becomes the desert planet we know of today. might fit and allows for humans of the martian variety to be around -65 million years ago

Born Again
14-01-2014, 08:35
I can't remember a source for this, but I thought Necrons chose the skeletal form for their new bodies to intimidate the races made by the Old Ones. I don't think it holds any bearing on the physical appearance of the Necrontyr, which hasn't been discussed in any detail as far as I know.

Lord Damocles
14-01-2014, 18:42
I can't remember a source for this, but I thought Necrons chose the skeletal form for their new bodies to intimidate the races made by the Old Ones. I don't think it holds any bearing on the physical appearance of the Necrontyr, which hasn't been discussed in any detail as far as I know.
Dark Creed (pg.364) confirms that (from the waist up, at least) the Necrontyr were humanoid.

EDIT: The 5th ed. Codex: Necrons (pg.43) heavily implies that they were humanoid too.

It would therefore seem unlikely that their form is/was solely designed to intimidate the Young races. Particularly since the Eldar/Jokaero/Krork/quite possibly Hrud/etc. didn't exist at the time of biotransference.

Rufiodies
14-01-2014, 22:58
The answer is in the most basic fluff of the game.:cheese:

"It is the 41st Millennium. For more than a hundred centuries the Emperor of Mankind has sat immobile on the Golden Throne of Earth. He is the master of mankind by the will of the gods

If you've read any of the HH books you probably know about the Cabal's outcome 1 and 2, 1 being Horus wins and destroys humanity, therefor removing chaos, 2 being the current state of the imperium,
This said, could it be that the Chaos gods WANT the emperor and imperium to survive, they know what will happen if they take over the galaxy, so they need the imperium to survive and keep fighting everything and feeding off the results?
They probably feast on the emperors pain and suffering, They being the one's who profit most off the human race, I would say that they are the best candidates for who created humans.

Born Again
15-01-2014, 07:23
Dark Creed (pg.364) confirms that (from the waist up, at least) the Necrontyr were humanoid.

EDIT: The 5th ed. Codex: Necrons (pg.43) heavily implies that they were humanoid too.

It would therefore seem unlikely that their form is/was solely designed to intimidate the Young races. Particularly since the Eldar/Jokaero/Krork/quite possibly Hrud/etc. didn't exist at the time of biotransference.

Huh. I haven't read the 5th ed. Codex, but you'd think I should have known the other one seeing as I read it not too long ago. Would you mind quoting the passage though? I'd like to look at it again and the page reference means nothing to me as I have the omnibus version.

madprophet
15-01-2014, 16:44
If you've read any of the HH books you probably know about the Cabal's outcome 1 and 2, 1 being Horus wins and destroys humanity, therefor removing chaos, 2 being the current state of the imperium,
The cabal are not gods though...

This said, could it be that the Chaos gods WANT the emperor and imperium to survive, they know what will happen if they take over the galaxy, so they need the imperium to survive and keep fighting everything and feeding off the results?
They probably feast on the emperors pain and suffering, They being the one's who profit most off the human race, I would say that they are the best candidates for who created humans.
Not really since Khorne didn't "awaken" until well after the advent of modern man and he was the first Chaos "god". We don't really know who the "gods" are...

Lord Damocles
15-01-2014, 18:42
Would you mind quoting the passage though? I'd like to look at it again and the page reference means nothing to me as I have the omnibus version.
Dark Creed quote:
'From the waist up the ancient, hate-filled being [the Undying One] was humanoid, a deathly parody of what it had been in life.'

Codex quote:
'...even the lowliest Necron Warrior longs for a return to the Time of Flesh, and because it's physical form is all that now echoes the living, breathing, soulful creature it once was, it will under no circumstances tolerate further dilution or corruption of that physical form.'

jakejackjake
03-02-2014, 15:11
I'd say the old ones intervened in human evolution forcing it down a path they desired. There are too many similarities with the eldar to the completely random. No that reeks of genetic templating.

It's actually hinted at the opposite in the fluff. It's said earth was most likely seeded with early life by the old ones. On the single cell level and while they probably had some sort of "intelligent design" thing going on they left it to go it's own path

jakejackjake
03-02-2014, 15:14
The cabal are not gods though...

Not really since Khorne didn't "awaken" until well after the advent of modern man and he was the first Chaos "god". We don't really know who the "gods" are...

Wrong Nurgle is the oldest. Khorne is called "first among the chaos gods" it refers to his power because it rarely wanes as much as the others it stays strong.

Lord Zarkov
03-02-2014, 18:32
Wrong Nurgle is the oldest. Khorne is called "first among the chaos gods" it refers to his power because it rarely wanes as much as the others it stays strong.

Nurgle is explicitly the second youngest in RoC LatD.

Khorne was first (when humans started to fight each other); Tzeentch was next (as nations and politics grew to adulthood); and Nurgle was last (as a plague swept the lands, roughly in the Middle Ages).

Slaanesh was then significantly later.


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jakejackjake
05-02-2014, 15:36
Nurgle is explicitly the second youngest in RoC LatD.

Khorne was first (when humans started to fight each other); Tzeentch was next (as nations and politics grew to adulthood); and Nurgle was last (as a plague swept the lands, roughly in the Middle Ages).

Slaanesh was then significantly later.


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Source please never played that game, but lexicanum says that Nurgle is the oldest. I know lexicanum can be wrong but its definitely says this. All of the first three were formed in the middle ages.

Lord Damocles
05-02-2014, 19:54
http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?379084-Creation-of-the-Chaos-Gods&p=6886460&viewfull=1#post6886460
Lexicanum is wrong.

Saunders
05-02-2014, 20:51
Does the new tyranid codex have anything to say about the origins of the race?

Nothing new, and I doubt we'll ever see anything definitive. The Tyranids are the one true 'alien' species that we have in 40k, being that they are not native to our galaxy. All we know is that they are driven onwards to harvest biomass by a collective will or consciousness that we call the Hive Mind. Repeated conflict with their hive fleets has shown that they are capable of some form of genetic engineering in order to better overcome threats to their overarching goal.

That's all we really *know* about the Tyranids; to speculate on their origin and how they came to a be galaxy-consuming force is a futile act because we don't have any other information.

Lord Zarkov
07-02-2014, 14:44
Source please never played that game, but lexicanum says that Nurgle is the oldest. I know lexicanum can be wrong but its definitely says this. All of the first three were formed in the middle ages.

It's from Realms of Chaos: The Lost and the Damned (one of the original 2 chaos army books, and the one that introduced Tzeentch and Nurgle). That's what RoC: LatD was in my original post.

Lexicanum is often wrong (as it's written by fans). the 'all in the middle ages' myth comes from a misreading/misremembering of the original RoC passage which says they were all formed 'by' the Middle Ages, but is non specific on exact times for the first two.


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Askil the Undecided
08-02-2014, 20:50
It`s also worth noting that this wasn`t the beginnging of chaos, the primordial annihilator existed long beofre the gods appeared fom it.

Also it`s worth remembering that the gods exist outside of time and so were able to retrospectively influence their own awakenings.

I find it hard to believe that somebody is using that godawful fluff piece from the front of every 40k book ever to prove creationism as a theme by quoting the words "by the will of the gods" it`s an out of universe piece of flavour text meant to make 40k sound awesome to potential customers. Not a hidden easter egg admission of literal license to act by divine beings.

jakejackjake
09-02-2014, 00:54
Nurgle SHOULD have existed first. Before emotion existed there was decay. Decay came before everything besides the very first sparks of matter

Lord Zarkov
09-02-2014, 13:22
Nurgle SHOULD have existed first. Before emotion existed there was decay. Decay came before everything besides the very first sparks of matter

Nurgle isn't fuelled by decay itself though. Nurgle's core is despair (an emotion like the others), this is why he's opposite to Tzeentch (hope).

Nurgle's connection with decay is simply that inevitable decay is a good path to despair.

Despair tends to set in only after your hopes are crushed, hence Tzeentch comes before Nurgle.


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MvS
09-02-2014, 21:06
A quick post for reference:

This one particularly: http://www.warseer.com/forums/showth...the-Chaos-Gods (http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?101208-Speculation-on-the-births-of-the-Chaos-Gods)

Number & names of all ‘gods’ in 40K: 1 (http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=110215) 2 (http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=106105) 3 (http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=158026) 4 (http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=205984) 5 (http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=158026)

What is the nature of ‘gods’ in 40K? Are they all connected? Is Khaine actually (or a part of) Khorne? 1 (http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=54556) 2 (http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=101208) 3 (http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=31994) 4 (http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=204907) 5 (http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=202388) 6 (http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=9535)

What, specifically, are the Chaos Gods? What do they look like? Can new Chaos Gods be created? 1 (http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=155560) 2 (http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=144840) 3 (http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=138470) 4 (http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=47343) 5 (http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=61782) 6 (http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=102332) 7 (http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=12407) 8 (http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=16932) 9 (http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=25350) 10 (http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=106570) 11 (http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=152316) 12 (http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=205446)

Are Chaos Gods ‘evil’? Are there ‘good’ Chaos Gods? 1 (http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=155222) 2 (http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=231771) 3 (http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=104262)

jakejackjake
09-02-2014, 23:19
It just doesn't line up for me. Despair is more of a part of every life then bloodlust or marital prowess. It's something everyone goes through life and experiences at some point.

Lord Zarkov
13-02-2014, 20:10
It just doesn't line up for me. Despair is more of a part of every life then bloodlust or marital prowess. It's something everyone goes through life and experiences at some point.

Outright bloodlust might not be something everybody experiences, but simple Anger is.
And I would wager that Anger is something the average person feels much more frequently then Despair.
Indeed it IMO despair is frequently preceded by anger as you tend to be annoyed by something before you give up trying to change it.


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MvS
13-02-2014, 20:15
More basically, fight or flight is fundamental to most animals. As is the urge to kill in order to survive (i.e.: hunting).

So the instinct to fight and the sensation of bloodlust in some form or another are older than more complex emotions like despair. They are proto-emotions - very basic to mammals (though probably not just mammals), which primates and finally humans developed into more complex things.

insectum7
13-02-2014, 21:27
More basically, fight or flight is fundamental to most animals. As is the urge to kill in order to survive (i.e.: hunting).

So the instinct to fight and the sensation of bloodlust in some form or another are older than more complex emotions like despair. They are proto-emotions - very basic to mammals (though probably not just mammals), which primates and finally humans developed into more complex things.

But how do you know that animals aren't hoping for better tasting grass, and despairing when it tastes just like all other grass? :)

Not entirely joking though. The predator hopes to catch its prey, and perhaps despairs when it doesn't. Now I'm not saying these animals are advanced thinkers or anything, but what's the cutoff of "too basic" to be affecting the warp? Sentience? Self-aware? Would a lizard brain be enough to tickle the warp into response? Does a lizard hope to catch food?

MvS
13-02-2014, 23:22
All excellent questions.

I would suggest that there are no instincts / sensations / feelings / emotions / concepts of any mortal creature that doesn't have at least some sort of effect in the Warp.

Just to address one of your points, one of the ways to extrapolate 'fundamental' behaviour is through similarity between species and types of life. For instance, many very simple several-celled organisms (like protozoa) 'hunt' other such organisms and 'flee' from harmful environments. There's much more to it than just this example, but from these sorts of comparisons between the most simple forms of life and every 'type' in between (most particularly 'intelligent' life), just like the drive to procreate, the drive to survive through feeding (even of other organisms) and fighting off or fleeing other predator organisms is more 'basic' to our makeup than, say, feeling miserable. This in itself is much harder to measure than whether or not an organism 'fought off' a predator or consumed 'prey'.

We can't read the mind of a reptile and whether it 'hopes' to catch food, but we can observe and judge actual physical action.

There are also neurological studies that look at such things - such as whether and where different sorts of brains 'fire up' during various activities - but I hesitate to quote them because I'm not a neurologist.

One thing is for certain, we have to be careful not to anthropomorphise the less neurologically complex creatures we're referring to. :)

Born Again
14-02-2014, 11:02
It just doesn't line up for me. Despair is more of a part of every life then bloodlust or marital prowess. It's something everyone goes through life and experiences at some point.

This is why Nurgle's position amongst the gods varies more than the rest. He's generally thought of as the 3rd most powerful behind Khorne and Tzeentch, but in times of great despair (such as large scale plagues), he grows to become more powerful than both of them. He always slips back down, though - it's his nature to wax and wane.

El_Machinae
14-02-2014, 15:09
I would guess that despair requires higher levels of neuroarchitecture. But, we do see animals 'lose' hope, but the survival instinct is really strong (thank evolution for that) and so animals seem to lose hope more slowly than higher animals. I'd say that you really need some type of sapience (the ability to have self-reference) to have despair.

insectum7
14-02-2014, 18:44
I would guess that despair requires higher levels of neuroarchitecture. But, we do see animals 'lose' hope, but the survival instinct is really strong (thank evolution for that) and so animals seem to lose hope more slowly than higher animals. I'd say that you really need some type of sapience (the ability to have self-reference) to have despair.

I agree with that, but I also think the same applies to rage, or at least the sort of lasting, burning hatred I associate with Khorne. Now, hotheaded anger is a different thing, and so is flicking away a fly in annoyance, both of which could also be grouped loosely under "anger". But my feeling is that "despair" has a similar breadth of manifestations applicable to both higher and lower forms of sentience. Rage and despair being "deeper" versions of more simplistic emotional states.

I keep getting this funny image of two goldfish swimming in two bowls, and each time they come to the glass one of the goldfish thinks "#^@$!!!" while the other sighs, and then each turns around and does the exact same thing again five seconds later.

El_Machinae
15-02-2014, 13:05
Yeah, hate and anger certainly require higher levels of neuroarchitecture. We actually experience both, because when you first wake, you can feel an animal level of 'anger' that when you wake fully is realized to not be 'true' anger, even though externally it has all the symptoms.

ryng_sting
15-02-2014, 14:11
Nurgle SHOULD have existed first. Before emotion existed there was decay. Decay came before everything besides the very first sparks of matter

Decay isn't an emotion, however, and emotions are what Chaos feeds on.