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Ratbeast
11-01-2014, 07:46
New nids, what are your thoughts? I personal don't know how I feel about them, some things are improvement others not so much, seems to have loss some decent options, biomorphs etc, for not much gain, other then the swarmlord, I don't yet see how to get a inv save on a hive tyrant!!!!!!! stealers my fav unit are still costly, and not that great, still got a lot to read, but yeah not that overwhelmed

dooms33ker
11-01-2014, 08:02
The early consensus seems to be that the book doesn't have the things Tyranid players were looking for, namely Eternal Warrior, viable 'Stealers, reliable anti-air, and buffs to close combat. The Exocrines and Biovores seem to be the standout units, though not enough to be "auto-include," but enough to consider shooting to be your best bet to achieve victory.

One good bit of news: the Carnifex is again playable. It isn't the best MC out there, but it has received a very significant price drop while other MCs have seen price hikes. The book is better than Dark Angels but is unfortunately behind the other 6th edition releases, specifically Tau and Eldar, two armies the bugs will really struggle against.

Grarik
11-01-2014, 08:29
Honestly I'm not thrilled with the codex; most of the units suffered nerfs (they even managed to make the pyrovore worse, someone needs to be given an award for that one), and while many things got a slight cost reduction, most of the upgrades got increased in price, so most of the savings kinda disappear. I think the carnifex, flying hive tyrant and the tyrannofex were the only units that did get a worthwhile pricedrop. One of the things that bugged me the most was that hiveguard were given access to toxin sacs and adrenal glands, but raveners weren't, which makes no sense at all.

Balerion
11-01-2014, 08:36
One of the things that bugged me the most was that hiveguard were given access to toxin sacs and adrenal glands, but raveners weren't, which makes no sense at all.
Yeah, this is infuriating. I thought it was a striking example of, "We are a miniature company, not a rules company".

ie. the Hive Guard come in a kit that has AG/TS bits (for the Tyrant Guard alterna-build). Might as well use those bits! Same thing for the Exocrine, an artillery beast that can take a melee tail weapon (because the alterna-build Haruspex has access to one).

Then I noticed that Termagants can still take Spike Rifles and Stranglewebs. Two weapons that exist nowhere. So, yeah, they're a miniature company, but also jaw-droppingly dumb and inconsistent.

The Clairvoyant
11-01-2014, 09:06
I guess for the termagants its for those players who still have the old ones. I have quite a few strangleweb termagants. Its the same for marine players still being able to take the razorback with lascannon/plasma guns even though the model is long oop.

Pallander
11-01-2014, 09:27
I agree with you guys about what you have written. The Nid should have been a balanced CC army against the shooty once and I am affraid it's mostly nerfed, especially in CC. There are some cheaper stuff, but on the other hand no Mystetic Spores, the melee weapons and CC biomorphs are too few(or been removed). I often see a challenge in a new codex but this codex made me just mad. The other new Codes, CSM, Eldar, Tau etc, are way better than this (also play Tau). Going to give the Nid codex a chance pretty soon and I pray to the Greater good that this will work since the Hive mind has abandoned the Nids, it's no longer adapts.... I really hope they sack the Nid codex designer(s?) or starting to rewriting the the rules for CC.

nosebiter
11-01-2014, 09:37
I agree with you guys about what you have written. The Nid should have been a balanced CC army against the shooty once and I am affraid it's mostly nerfed, especially in CC. There are some cheaper stuff, but on the other hand no Mystetic Spores, the melee weapons and CC biomorphs are too few(or been removed). I often see a challenge in a new codex but this codex made me just mad. The other new Codes, CSM, Eldar, Tau etc, are way better than this (also play Tau). Going to give the Nid codex a chance pretty soon and I pray to the Greater good that this will work since the Hive mind has abandoned the Nids, it's no longer adapts.... I really hope they sack the Nid codex designer(s?) or starting to rewriting the the rules for CC.


The book is better then the nay sayers would have you believe. There are some pretty good things in there. The army (thankfully) just looks alot different then it has for a long time.

I have been messing around with the dex for a few hours and come up with 4 different builds for the games at home. And games at home is what the codexes (and 6th) is built for, not mindless waac spam.

Deon
11-01-2014, 10:36
does anyone know what happened to the lictor ??

Spider-pope
11-01-2014, 10:46
New nids, what are your thoughts? I personal don't know how I feel about them, some things are improvement others not so much, seems to have loss some decent options, biomorphs etc, for not much gain, other then the swarmlord, I don't yet see how to get a inv save on a hive tyrant!!!!!!! stealers my fav unit are still costly, and not that great, still got a lot to read, but yeah not that overwhelmed

I've not read the new codex yet and i've not played against them using the new rules, so i haven't got any thoughts on the rules yet. Miniature wise, i want the squiggly maw from the Haruspex to stick on some Chaos Spawn for my Beastmen.

spaghettyhoop
11-01-2014, 10:53
I've had a good few reads of it so far since I bought it last night. I'm really disappointed. And I'm a player who hates nay saying and didn't even think the 5th ed codex was too bad. (I also enjoyed chaos 4th Ed one!)

This feels like it has been written by a team who don't play tyrannids at all. The scything talon change is the big one that irritates me. Nerfs across the board that make no sense, and no real buffs outside of points drops.

People say that the venomthropes giving shrouding is a big buff, but now it only effects models within its range, not units. So no more cover saves in the open for gaunt units. Although I like the idea of one babysitting certain small units.

I'm just disappointed overall. They are my favourite army, and I've looked forward to this release for months. And now I've got the book it just feels like a massive let down. I will still play them, but they will get less attention than my other armies.

Mage
11-01-2014, 11:00
Prices in money are steep, too many big uninspired and convoluted looking monsters, lack of cretivity and imagination in design, not bothered.

MasterDecoy
11-01-2014, 11:07
I've had a good few reads of it so far since I bought it last night. I'm really disappointed. And I'm a player who hates nay saying and didn't even think the 5th ed codex was too bad. (I also enjoyed chaos 4th Ed one!)

This feels like it has been written by a team who don't play tyrannids at all. The scything talon change is the big one that irritates me. Nerfs across the board that make no sense, and no real buffs outside of points drops.

People say that the venomthropes giving shrouding is a big buff, but now it only effects models within its range, not units. So no more cover saves in the open for gaunt units. Although I like the idea of one babysitting certain small units.

I'm just disappointed overall. They are my favourite army, and I've looked forward to this release for months. And now I've got the book it just feels like a massive let down. I will still play them, but they will get less attention than my other armies.



Its a pity shrouding doesnt confer to the whole unit if one model has it ;)

mpepperdine
11-01-2014, 11:25
Massive letdown for me.

After 4 years of playing with a bland (imo) codex, I've got another 4 years of bland (and quite frankly appaling) codex.
Sorely tempted to shelf the nids for good. I have no desire to play them whatsoever, looking at the new rules.

Wouldn't be quite so bad if I liked the new models either.... but I don't :(

Geep
11-01-2014, 12:02
I think the book is actually pretty decent. A bit odd in places, but not bad overall.

Some crutches people are used to- like Hiveguard- are toned down, while most stuff has stayed pretty much the same and dropped in points. Some things are incredibly good but not obvious at first glance- like the Gargoyle's blinding venom (low initiative armies like Orks will hate this, and armies with a toughness of 3 or lower will also hate it (re-rolls to wound, for having a strength of 3 and the poison rule)).

I expect clever deployment and model positioning to be very important with this book. As another example:

I don't yet see how to get a inv save on a hive tyrant!!!!!!!
You can't get an invul save, but (ignoring your options for a cover save) you can get Tyrant guard (now cheaper), place your Hive Tyrant upgraded with regeneration out front, take a few wounds on him (elect not to use LoS), then let the Hive Guard soak hits while the Tyrant regenerates (no chance of the Tyrant dying to bad LoS die rolls). Yes regeneration is now more expensive, but used well it can be worth it.

avien
11-01-2014, 12:14
Honestly struggling to understand some of the design decisions here... I've been playing nids since 3rd edition and have always fielded a swarm tooled for combat because that's their niche... Well it used to be anyway

I haven't done too badly with them in 6th using the 5th codex - as much as some people complained about it. But now combat effectiveness seems to have been toned down, and a shooty nid army is starting to look more appealing despite the lack of AP3/2 weapons for dealing with the marines which form the majority if opponents...

I'm still flicking through the codex and still struggling to understand the lack of eternal warrior, the removal of the scything talon rerolls, and the lack of invulnerable saves... As far as I'm concerned the hive tyrant and prime should have warp field, it doesn't make sense that two critical synaptic lynchpins would be left so vulnerable...

The points reductions for don't seem to make up for the nerfs, but ultimately I'll have to play a few games to get a real feel for the changes... I'm just disappointed to be honest.

Commissar Merces
11-01-2014, 12:45
:no::no:

I don't like it sam I am, and I have had the book longer than most and have gotten a game in too. Disappointment in ever sense of the word.

It just isn't inspired. It isn't fun. It's just kind of there. We lost options rather than gained options. Some of our biggest strengths (re-rolls in close combat, good psychic powers and deep striking troops) are gone. POOF.

spaghettyhoop
11-01-2014, 13:16
Its a pity shrouding doesnt confer to the whole unit if one model has it ;)

Haha, can't believe I didn't think of that. Ok I retract my earlier worries about venomthropes, I now like them a lot.

Everyone's going to be complaining about the same few issues, and rightly so. So I'm going to at least mention some changes I really like.

Points decreases. Very happy with these for obvious reasons. I always run a tfex with rupture cannon for no reason other than it looks awesome, but now it feels like its worth it.

Zoanthropes new rule for shooting makes me happy. Nice to see a rule use logic and sense!

Hive guard now having a flat ignores cover rule while still not needing line of site is ace. People keep saying these guys have been nerfed hard, but other than a slight points increase I don't see it. Unless I'm missing something.

Tyrant guard are now much more viable. Although I really don't like their new models. Too humanoid, I preferred the mini carnifexes we had before.

I really like the change to shadow in the warp. Although I'm not sure why. I just feel a penalty to ld is more elegant than the add a die

I'm disappointed the pyrovore didn't get torrent, but still like that they at least gave him a small buff. He's still useless, but to be fair costs the same as a single terminator. Can't complain really.

Nazguire
11-01-2014, 13:35
I think so far it seems to be alright, and a welcome change from the mental crazy lists that the Eldar and Tau Codexs can put out. It's not Un-competitive by any stretch of the imagination. It's just not 'Two Wraithknight who can re-roll their saves whilst magical Tau allies lay waste before them' competitive

CauCaSus
11-01-2014, 14:50
Some things are incredibly good but not obvious at first glance- like the Gargoyle's blinding venom (low initiative armies like Orks will hate this, and armies with a toughness of 3 or lower will also hate it (re-rolls to wound, for having a strength of 3 and the poison rule)).


How is this in any way helpful? Models with I 2 and T 3 (and lower?!) aren't very intimidating to begin with.

Silversage
11-01-2014, 15:04
...but enough to consider shooting to be your best bet to achieve victory.


This. I don't play Tyranids nor will I ever, but even I am pissed off about this. If there's one force in the Warhammer 40K universe that is utterly focused on melee (besides Daemons), it's the bugs. If this is indeed true, the entirety of GW higher-ups and designers that had anything to do with the Codex can go jump in a well. You. Goddamn. ******.

Voss
11-01-2014, 15:09
I think the book is actually pretty decent. A bit odd in places, but not bad overall.

I am also pleased with it. A couple spots where I would have expected adjustments (raveners, rippers, stealers), and a touch overboard in combating tervigon spam (the bigger boom radius feels unnecessary with the price hike and larger termagant brood requirement); but I can live with those minor problems. I think the weakest point is that the flyers are almost certain to be wounded by any skyfire weapon (2+ wounds and no save), and there isn't any other reliable means of dealing with enemy flyers other than the crone. Show up, shoot, jink and leave seems to be the main survival pattern.

Other than that, I feel like swimming in a sea of gribbly, chitinous goodness.
'This day is going to be perfect...'

pantsukki
11-01-2014, 15:19
My initial reaction is a big disappointment. Also one has to wonder if it would really have killed GW to add options to the units? For many entries the only option is still "add more bugs for X points". I've only seen glimpses of the older (4th ed?) codex which had lots of options to customize the bugs, and it looked really great.

Azulthar
11-01-2014, 15:24
It might turn out to be a strong codex (time will tell), but it surely is not a well-balanced one.



Edit: Removed the claim that it's not a "fun" codex, as fun means different things to different people.

Obake123
11-01-2014, 15:26
The Fourth ed codex was a gem. Oh, I'm sure it had its flaws too, but the sheer variety of options for each brood, the layout, presentation, the approach to fluff (everything from Imperial POV trying to understand the Tyranids). A gem.

The fluff in the last one was torture to read, painfully basic and poorly worded.

How does the fluff and presentation look in the new 'dex?

lordokaos
11-01-2014, 15:45
Hive guard now having a flat ignores cover rule while still not needing line of site is ace. People keep saying these guys have been nerfed hard, but other than a slight points increase I don't see it. Unless I'm missing something.

They also lost a point of ballistic skill... Despite that, I think they are still good, just not the "must always include" unit that I viewed them as before.

Overall, I like the new book. Swarm looks viable again, with Venomthrope support giving a chance for the swarm to make it across the table. You just have to play smart and aggressive. Remember, shooting though a unit gives a 5+ cover save, Venomthropes bump that to a 3+, so use the new cheaper gaunts and un-upgraded hormagaunts to run and screen your units. You know, like in the fluff... ;)

malisteen
11-01-2014, 15:52
I like most of the new models. The exocrine looks pretty sweet, even if I'm not as big a fan of the haruspex. The fliers are amazing. And the new tyrant guard? They've been completely redesigned with each new version of them since their release, but only now have they finally, imo, gotten them right. They look fantastic, and the hive guard look pretty decent, too.

Rules wise, well... I like most of the new models. Let's leave it at that.

vortexdr
11-01-2014, 15:53
How does the fluff and presentation look in the new 'dex?

Pretty much a copy/paste from the 5th one with only a tiny but of new fluff....like a couple paragraphs.

Bugaboo
11-01-2014, 15:53
Ever notice how it's the big bads of the 40k universe that supposedly get the shaft this edition? I predict much wailing and gnashing of teeth from Necron players in a year or so. xD After the Orks vanish from a great many tables, that is. So which dex are you nid guys going to proxy over to for the wins, eh?

A.T.
11-01-2014, 16:12
Ever notice how it's the big bads of the 40k universe that supposedly get the shaft this edition?As a player of templars and sisters, no - haven't really noticed that trend.

The trend I have noticed though is that books with more to change have had more to gain (or lose). The more 'complete' books from GWs perspective (marines, CSMs, nids, etc) are more retread than rewrite, nothing like the big shakeups of the late 3rd/early 4th stuff.

Then again this was Cruddace. I offered my condolences to our local nid player long before the dex came out... could have been worse frankly. Pity about GWs new 'no model, no rules' policy.

Xerkics
11-01-2014, 16:50
I really really dont like that hive tyrants lost the ability to give synergistic aura to troop like prefered enemy in 6 inch radius and more importantly to buy 2+ save? I mean was this really necessary in light of losing access to iron arm? This seems petty, considering Tau and space wolf ml spam . I dont understand why this had to go considering tyrranofex still has it for no reason whatsoever , and it was balanced on a tyrant being 40 points and not being able to take it with wings. Like adding insult to injury that is. Now every hive tyrant thats walking will have to come with a venomthrope taped to its back. Nm that the hive tyrant art in the book is pathetic weedy with stick atrophied arms compared to the epic hive tyrant in the last book.

Pyrovore still serves no purpose whatsoever i really dont see why they couldnt give it torrent.

Obake123
11-01-2014, 17:23
Seriously? The fluff is just as bad as it was before??

Oh dear.

Geep
11-01-2014, 17:49
Some things are incredibly good but not obvious at first glance- like the Gargoyle's blinding venom (low initiative armies like Orks will hate this, and armies with a toughness of 3 or lower will also hate it (re-rolls to wound, for having a strength of 3 and the poison rule)).
How is this in any way helpful? Models with I 2 and T 3 (and lower?!) aren't very intimidating to begin with.
There's no way that reducing Orks to WS1 could help? Or Necrons? And you don't want re-rolls to wound against Tau, Guard, Eldar, or anything else that's not Space Marines? With no increase in the points of Gargoyles?

The whining over this new book has taken on a life of its own. People really need to just get out and try it, and maybe think a bit on how to make this work.

Voss
11-01-2014, 18:30
It might turn out to be a strong codex (time will tell), but it surely is not a well-balanced one.

I'm not sure about that one, actually. Internal balance actually seems fairly high for GW, with a lot of different options in various FOC slots. There are a couple questionable decisions (raveners), a lack of action in the case of genestealers and a complete pants on head moment with rippers, but compared to other armies? The balance quotient is pretty high compared to what they usually produce. Does it produce something comparable to the all-singing all-dancing riptide spam? No. But that too is more balanced than the alternative.


The whining over this new book has taken on a life of its own. People really need to just get out and try it, and maybe think a bit on how to make this work.
Very much so. Some are even stating that they haven't looked at it, and still complaining

Pallander
11-01-2014, 19:12
I have played my first game and it was a horrible chock, my Tyrant had a hard time first against melta guns and then powerfist, bye bye hive commander.... The Venomthrope saved my army bit(played him wrong, not a Custom forcefield). The 3+ save on monsterous creature is quite easy to take out and the psychic powers are too m random, should have been two versions of them support and boost/offensive. The shooting broods did quite well the CC, hardly became one, shot to pieces. Would gladly pay the money for a new rewritten one... This isn't funny...

TheBearminator
11-01-2014, 19:41
My initial reaction is a big disappointment. Also one has to wonder if it would really have killed GW to add options to the units? For many entries the only option is still "add more bugs for X points". I've only seen glimpses of the older (4th ed?) codex which had lots of options to customize the bugs, and it looked really great.

Isn't that because individual upgrades creates a sense of... Individualism. Which isn't always a good thing. It kind of takes away the impression of a vast horde of ugly merciless critters. At least for the smaller bugs I think that fits my understanding of the race. GW tried a different approach in 4th but I think they weren't quite happy with it for some reason, maybe cause there were no upgrade bits in the kits? I don't know. I've played a lot of games against nidz during the years. But I've only ever owned the 3rd edition Codex.

Edit: I don't know a great deal of the nid fluff. From what I understand it has been rewritten since I got to know them. Personally I love to picture them as animals/beasts. A nameless mass of teeth and claws. Not as individuals. The nidz I like the most are the isometric models. The ones that doesn't cary a built in sword or cannon on one limb and claws on the other. But it wouldn't be a very interesting army to play if you couldn't swap some weapons here and there. :)

NagashLover
11-01-2014, 19:47
From what I have heard and read it is a step up from the last codex. Nids are still, and always have been, just as CC and shooty. The point of the army is hordes of cheap throw away units with more specialized creatures coming in behind them to mop up or even do the job. From what I have heard and seen that is just what it does.

Were some head scratchers made? Surely. Ravs, genestealers, the rehashing of fluff (though this is mainly a trend across books both in 40K and fantasy), the handling of restricting BRB owers and the underwhelming traits and bimorphs (I'm a huge fan of the 3rd and 4th edition Nids or "bake a nid!" approach). That said the codex still offers a lot of variety and buffs that get neglected simply because a book can't be accepted as decent. The book must either be terrible or completely roll over the opposition.

Myself, I will continue to play like I have been since second. Swarms of little guys with multiple synapse points across the board. Pelt away with ranged fire as my entire army, well except maybe biovores, close in like a gaping maw. Will I lost a few teeth on the way in? Yes, but I never go into a game expecting to roll the other player. This is just how I've been playing since way back when with the bunny teeth of death warriors. I might even pick up a tervigon this time around.

For most of those upset they will need time to realize how or in what ways to play the codex. Just like we did with the last one, and the one before that and the next 5 to come. The main issue being that people are upset they have to change up how they play. people like consistency as a natural response. Some will only need to adjust a few minor things while others will need to just learn they have to change how they play it completely (this being even further dictated by what they want to accomplish. Do they have a tournie mindset or a less competitive environment).

Time will tell the quality of the codex and that doesn't mean a week like many on here falsely believe.

gLOBS
11-01-2014, 19:51
Why is it the most vocal defenders of the new codex have never even read it?

Ssilmath
11-01-2014, 19:54
Why is it the most vocal defenders of the new codex have never even read it?

Probably cause the most vocal detractors denounced the codex before they read it?

Personally, I'm not going to say one way or the other till I've had a few days to digest it, but my initial reaction has been that the book seems reasonably strong with a decent number of builds and options.

bork da basher
11-01-2014, 19:59
im not a Nid player but i follow all the new release info closely regardless and the book just looks, in a word, dull. the things that were bad with the last book are still there by and large, theres no way to play other than charging headlong with a horde or spamming MC's. why they dropped mycetic spores i'll never know because at least then you could get some of your assault units across the table.

im sure it won't be a terrible book once its been played with for a bit but its certainly no where near where it should have been. theres only one tyranid player in our group and he's gutted and on the verge of selling his army because he's sick of once again being hung out to dry by GW. can't say i blame him much.

in all honesty i believe its the worst codex GW have put out in a long time because its just so bland and lifeless, its 5.1 not 6th and it feels like it was written by someone with no love for the army whatsoever. even CSM is better than this and that was fairly dire (not terrible though)

feel sorry for you guys suffering through yet another lacklustre codex relying on your love of the army and sheer determination to get you through the next 4 years will be fun...

Commissar Merces
11-01-2014, 20:57
I'm tired of the "wait and see crowd" I've had the codex since wednesday. I've been sick all week and not working and have had time to look at it the book. It's not very good. It's DA good. So if you don't like the DA codex because it isn't very competitive or because there are very few builds, then you won't like this either. If you like the DA codex because of fluff and the awesome models, Tyranids will be fine for you.

I am also tired of getting asked how would I fix nids, as if how dare I, a simple gamer, question the judgement of those who make the rules. Well, I am going to tell the world now since GW took a big steamer on my aspirations for this book.

1. Models in synapse range or are synapse creatures may run and assault as long as they haven't arrived from deep strike or fired a heavy weapon.

2. Create two different psychic powers charts, destructive and enhancement. Destructive focus on witch fires and novas. Make a doom like power. Enhancement, take the biomancy table and remove the leaching powers (would go in destructive) add two other powers.

3. Fix Trygon deep striking hole. Models my arrive at same time as trygon (or prime) but may not assault in the turn they arrive.

4. Genestealers may charge from outflank, but go up in cost by +2 points per model.

5. Tervigons remain their 160 points with all their 5th ed rules, but you must take a unit of 30 gants per tervigon to unlock as troops

6. Create a flyer that can't be grounded, make said flyer T6 with living ammunition that chases it's intended targets. Smart bombs basically.

7. Make instinctive behavior brutal (like in the new edition).

8. Warriors boosted to T5 but lose a wound.

9. Scything talons remain re-rolled misses.

10. Increase price of Hive Tyrant, but make him ML 2 base.

Fangschrecken
11-01-2014, 21:09
does anyone know what happened to the lictor ??

It's behind you!

Ssilmath
11-01-2014, 21:09
I'm tired of the "wait and see crowd" I've had the codex since wednesday. I've been sick all week and not working and have had time to look at it the book. It's not very good. It's DA good. So if you don't like the DA codex because it isn't very competitive or because there are very few builds, then you won't like this either. If you like the DA codex because of fluff and the awesome models, Tyranids will be fine for you.

Because heaven forbid anybody take some time to examine the book for themselves. They might come to a different conclusion than you, and since you've already made the decision for everybody there's no reason for us to take some time and come to our own conclusions?

Nazguire
11-01-2014, 21:17
The #nerdrage is strong in this thread. Holy Hell.

I think it's quite refreshing to see a book that isn't a blatant nerd-**** by the author like the Eldar Codex. The Dark Angels book is fine, IMO, and was never intended to be about power gaming your way to glory. The new Tyranids seem to be a similar concept.

wyvirn
11-01-2014, 21:38
I don't think anyone left at GW 'gets' Tyranids.

kafrique
11-01-2014, 22:11
The #nerdrage is strong in this thread. Holy Hell.

I think it's quite refreshing to see a book that isn't a blatant nerd-**** by the author like the Eldar Codex. The Dark Angels book is fine, IMO, and was never intended to be about power gaming your way to glory. The new Tyranids seem to be a similar concept.

Well, seeing as Eldar and Tau exist, wouldn't it make more sense for future books to be able to match them?

Sorry Bright Side Brigade, but wanting to compete on even footing is not and has never been power gaming. I play Eldar and Tyranids. It's very easy to make a fun and fluffy Eldar list than can hold its own against most comers. To fight that same list on even footing I've got to make a tyranid list based mainly on in-game power, taking units I'm not crazy about in place of weaker favorites. I'll take competitive books over "MY FUN IS THE ONLY FUN GO HOME TOURNEYHAVERS" any day.

It's frankly amazing that GW has managed to convince a large portion of their own playerbase that bad rules are actually more fun.

nosebiter
11-01-2014, 22:21
Well, seeing as Eldar and Tau exist, wouldn't make more sense for future books to be able to match them?

Sorry Bright Side Brigade, but wanting to compete on even footing is not and has never been power gaming. I play Eldar and Tyranids. It's very easy to make a fun and fluffy Eldar list than can hold its own against most comers. To fight that same list on even footing I've got to make a tyranid list based mainly on in-game power, taking units I'm not crazy about in place of weaker favorites. I'll take competitive books over "MY FUN IS THE ONLY FUN GO HOME TOURNEYHAVERS" any day.

It's frankly amazing that GW has managed to convince a large portion of their own playerbase that bad rules are actually more fun.


This +1.

All the codexes should have been on par with the tau and eldar. Options and fun units trump blandness and mediocre any day.

I seriously hope orks dont devolve into this.

nosebiter
11-01-2014, 22:23
I don't think anyone left at GW 'gets' Tyranids.


Nail on head.

For me Nids is about fast masses of teeth and claws, inter mixed with large and dangerous beasties. All rushing to eat you.

Not an army that shoots almost as much as the imperial guard.

blackjack
11-01-2014, 22:26
My thoughts about the new Nid Dex...

"The Iperium is once again safe from the Tyrranid Threat for another 3 or so years..."

It is a superbly under powered dex in every sense. No idea why, GW must be taking a loss on Tyranid minis or something.

mpepperdine
11-01-2014, 22:38
This +1.

All the codexes should have been on par with the tau and eldar. Options and fun units trump blandness and mediocre any day.

I seriously hope orks dont devolve into this.

I could not have said this better.

Exactly my feelings. And coincidentally I play Nids and Eldar too.

Oh, and Orks are my other army. Might be worth me praying to Mork now.....

TheBearminator
11-01-2014, 22:45
My thoughts at the moment:

-What's the worst thing about the new Codex?

-When were Nidz last REALLY competitive (if ever)?

nosebiter
11-01-2014, 22:58
The worst thing about the new codex! The loooooong list of units that they just didnt bother doing anything worthwhile with. The inability of the designers to make the warrior "frame" desireable.

And that it reads like a accountants wet dream: Buy more models!

HereComesTomorrow
11-01-2014, 23:04
Been a Nid player since their 2nd Ed book.
Since then my favourite units have been genestealers and lictors. So...yeah.

I'm not sure how I feel about the book. It is awful, no doubt about it. Theres no balance, a LOT of really stupid descions and rules, lackluster...everything. Also, below 2k and double FoC the army will SUCK just because the units are cheap but the FoC is too small to fit in everything the army will need to be effective. (I assume its 2 HQ, 6 Troop, 3 everything else)

Ivanzypher
11-01-2014, 23:11
I won't know for sure till I play some games with it, but it certainly seems more interesting than the last codex atleast.

Balerion
11-01-2014, 23:41
The worst thing about the new codex! The loooooong list of units that they just didnt bother doing anything worthwhile with. The inability of the designers to make the warrior "frame" desireable.

Yes, this.

It's not even like they *tried* to fix the borderline-unplayable units (eg. Warriors, Pyrovores) and simply failed. Instead they barely touched them, and demonstrated a complete obliviousness to a problem that almost everyone outside of GW seems to agree exists.

Another thing that bothers me is the lack of biomorphs, and how they neglected to do anything with biomorphs that already exist on kits but currently have no function. Feeder Tendrils, Implant Attacks, all the Carnifex heads and carapaces, stuff like that.

Dkoz
11-01-2014, 23:43
I like it never had a Nids codex before and this one seems ok to me. GW did a fine job with the codex I think most of the people who are all up in arms probably already had the minds made up about how bad the Nids Codex a long time ago.

Kijamon
11-01-2014, 23:46
I'm going to give it a few games, I'm not overly gutted.

It just reads like they took the last codex, put it in a blender, chucked in a couple of new units and then poured it out for us to drink up.

Some things got slightly better, some got slightly worse but I'm struggling to see the OP builds that people will be crying about. Not that I would wish such a thing but when you compare it to the other books, it's not great.

Fixing pyrovores or removing them was a must for me, you could always have just played them as biovores.

Let's wait and see, I'll try and get a game within a week or two.

Voss
11-01-2014, 23:48
Options and fun units trump blandness and mediocre any day.

On a casual read-through (twice through the rules sections and going through the spanish translations earlier this week), I can't find this blandness and mediocrity to which you refer. Am I going to have to hunt for it?

mpepperdine
11-01-2014, 23:51
On a casual read-through (twice through the rules sections), I can't find this blandness and mediocrity to which you refer. Am I going to have to hunt for it?

Maybe keep looking? I found it straight away.

nosebiter
12-01-2014, 00:00
Yes, this.

It's not even like they *tried* to fix the borderline-unplayable units (eg. Warriors, Pyrovores) and simply failed. Instead they barely touched them, and demonstrated a complete obliviousness to a problem that almost everyone outside of GW seems to agree exists.

Another thing that bothers me is the lack of biomorphs, and how they neglected to do anything with biomorphs that already exist on kits but currently have no function. Feeder Tendrils, Implant Attacks, all the Carnifex heads and carapaces, stuff like that.

Yes,a ll the unique tyranid approaches to army building, and even model-building, is gone.

Vepr
12-01-2014, 00:26
The Tyranid codex appears to be a lazy effort in my opinion.

Dkoz
12-01-2014, 01:21
Everyone is so upset that the new Nids codex isn't super overpowered, it's a fine codex full of acid bleeding monsters that can rip through anything. I do wish there was some antiair weapon options but that isn't that big of a deal.

facepalm
12-01-2014, 01:36
bought it, read it, meh .....

i get a melancholy feeling reading through it. several decent units, several OK units and some units which just feel like they were created in some vacuum without any thought off how they are ever going to do anything on the table.

Not really any powerful units that i can see, some people seem to think this is good as it stops people spamming them for auto win games, but it also stops the majority of people who play taking 1 of said unit and having it balance out the other less optimal units.

Not every tau player takes 5 riptides or eldar 3 WK's.

i think my main disappointment is how average to poor the troops are. In this edition everyone has the ability to deal with t3 hordes with no save, warriors are just plainly bad and genestealers will be shredded to the last stealer more often then they make it to combat where even there without a broodlord they aren't that scary. In an edition all about troops we will have some big problems before the game even starts.

lack of 2+ save's just baffles me.

No invun for hive also is rather annoying.

Things that i did like, at least a bit were the cheaper fex's which were criminally over prices last edition (but thats just how gw work, something cheap one edition so gets bought then market is saturated with said model so increased next edition and something else is made cheaper, back an forth a la transports in 5th ed) I The newer MC's are decent, and the flyers don't seem too bad as long as you can try and finnish there move close to an also decent venomthrope.

Overall they will do OK against casual armies but i can see them ever winning a game against a power build no matter what your luck is like or how much better a general you are, we just don't have the tools top do it.

kafrique
12-01-2014, 01:43
Everyone is so upset that the new Nids codex isn't super overpowered, it's a fine codex full of acid bleeding monsters that can rip through anything. I do wish there was some antiair weapon options but that isn't that big of a deal.

We don't want "overpowered." We want "on-par." Tau, Eldar, Daemons, and SM can make loads of cool, fluffy, stylistic lists that are still synergistic and powerful in-game. Balance and fun go hand-in-hand.

In what bizarro universe does some portion of the playerbase live in where taking a list you like and expecting to have a decent chance of winning considered powergaming? Seriously.

IcedCrow
12-01-2014, 01:54
We don't want "overpowered." We want "on-par."

When the things you want to be on par with are the things that are overpowered, the request is for something overpowered.

It has nothing to do with the perceived notion that someone wants to takea list that they like and have a decent chance of winning. Its that there are powergaming lists already out there that are considered broken and OP that the people complaining want to be on par with that would also make those powergaming options as well. "If all choices are broken / OP then no choices are broken / OP"

dooms33ker
12-01-2014, 02:10
I think giving genestealers assault grenades and dropping them a point and letting tyranid primes give an Eternal Warrior aura to warriors would have been enough for me. Without the ability to ally, Tyranids simply don't have any good troop choices at the moment. This was one issue I had with Tau until the Farsight book came out and Crisis suits could be taken as core.

kafrique
12-01-2014, 02:24
When the things you want to be on par with are the things that are overpowered, the request is for something overpowered.

It has nothing to do with the perceived notion that someone wants to takea list that they like and have a decent chance of winning. Its that there are powergaming lists already out there that are considered broken and OP that the people complaining want to be on par with that would also make those powergaming options as well. "If all choices are broken / OP then no choices are broken / OP"

Please, tell me more about how everyone being equal means everyone is OP.

There's a handful of Tau/Eldar/Taudar lists that are super-powerful and a bunch of others that are fun and fluffy but can hold their own. Ideally, every codex would be this way, so the top-tier players could bash eachother's heads in with cutthroat lists and everyone else could have fun lists that face off well.

Instead, if I want to play Nids, I have to hope my opponent takes a gimp list, or abandon fluff and fun in favor of "units that work."

No thanks.

Again, good on GW for convincing everyone that balance is badwrongfun.

IcedCrow
12-01-2014, 02:36
Please, tell me more about how everyone being equal means everyone is OP.

Because there have been several codices released already up to this point that aren't equal... so doing basic math that would mean making the tyranid book have builds that equaled the already OP tau and eldar builds would put them above the other books that the tau and eldar also squat over ... in essence making the tyranid book also OP.

Your "the sky is falling the tyranid list is 100% gimp" is also 100% hyperbole and whining.


Again, good on GW for convincing everyone that balance is badwrongfun.

Would you also like a cross to hang yourself from to fully paint that martyr'd image you are going for? I don't recall anyone saying anything about "badwrongfun". All that was being pointed out is that the request to have tyranids be on par with OP builds is asking for the tyranids to also be OP, not that balance is "badwrongfun".

To claim that tyranids are "gimp" is 100% **** since the book just came out and no one has played it yet to be able to say how "gimp" it is. I'm betting that after having read it that you can have lots of fun with the book, you just can't go powergame with it, which is where most of the complaints are coming from. That's not saying powergaming is bad wrong fun, or whatever martyr words we want to use, its stating that the tyranid book will have a challenging time against people who like to break the game with OP builds.

The tau book, by the way, was also raged at by the internet sages as being gimp too upon its first week's release. That turned out pretty accurate right?

NagashLover
12-01-2014, 02:39
Because heaven forbid anybody take some time to examine the book for themselves. They might come to a different conclusion than you, and since you've already made the decision for everybody there's no reason for us to take some time and come to our own conclusions?

Exactly. Glad to see others understand. Commissar you are one person. I am one person. Being human we are by definition imperfect and flawed. Being individuals furthers that statement even more, as we are constrained by individual perceptions and ego inflation. I might find things that work that you didn't even consider in your wildest of dreams. I might not. Someone else could find something that works. The codex isn't in everyone's hands and hasn't been out for a few months. Yes months. It's easy for us to say ST re-rolls is a negative but why is it hard for people to realize the cost of many units were decreased?

As I've stated before, and from those who do have the codex confirmed this, I am disappointed by the lack of new fluff but that is more a GW wide thing for armies in fantasy and 40K. I also prefer the 3rd and 4th edition bimorph ideas over how homogenized Nids feel with all other armies. Nowhere am I, nor are others who share a similar view, saying the Nid codex is perfect or the next FotM. We simply are implying it takes time, reasoning and for people to step outside of the comfort zone they developed from the previous codex to really comprehend the new dex.

Regardless it is still a step up from the last codex (not a hard feat but still) and the "competitive value" of the dex will be up for debate for many months to come due to the variation in player environments and matchups with other players. I still am not seeing how the army is now terrible or not viable at all until many games are played by many different people. It is through the collective experience of the community that we will find an appropriate answer, not the proclamation of myself or any other singular person. Could GW have done better with Nids? Absolutely, but they could also have done better with Tau for that matter. Does the fact they could have done better ultimately relegate the new Nid dex to worthless? Not in any reasonable claim.

I would recommend all the negative Nancy's look at Kijamon's post (I don't mean to single you out Kijamon) as it is a reasonable approach to the new codex. We need to try out as many different combinations, setups and scenarios before proclaiming doom and gloom. Or rather we should. Otherwise it ends up being a self fulfilling prophecy simply because we feel (not to be confused with knowing) we have a terrible codex. This would be fulfilled by statements such as "well the Warriors only did good because your opponent was a poor general!" and "well CC Fexes only did good because you got lucky dice rolls". Which then I would argue makes Riptides terrible as when I have faced my friend's Tau army his Riptide proxy has failed miserably in the 4 games we've played thus implying the model is "garbage".

I don't feel like I'm being an apologist in the slightest or unreasonable in any manner. Simply understanding and reasonable.

Grarik
12-01-2014, 03:13
I get why people are saying to play it before judging it, but I'm pretty sure that it's not neccessary for this codex. Normally when a new codex comes out there rule changes, new equipment, etc that can make changes. There's nothing like that in the tyranid codex, the only big rule changes weakened the army, rather than presented new ways of playing. People keep talking about points drops, but only the lictor, tyrant guard, tyrannofex, zoanthrope and termagant actually got cheaper, the points drops in most other units are cancelled out by an increase in biomorph prices, and a number of units stayed the same price or became more expensive while being reduced in effectiveness (although not to the same degree as the tervigon. Someone writing the codex really hated that thing; price increase, lost almost all synergy with termagants, death explosion range increased, no longer a character so you can't even run it as a your only hq unit...). It's always possible that the new units, whilst being on the whole fairly mediocre, may keep the codex competitive at least at the casual setting, but in all honesty I struggle to see this happening

kafrique
12-01-2014, 03:25
Because there have been several codices released already up to this point that aren't equal... so doing basic math that would mean making the tyranid book have builds that equaled the already OP tau and eldar builds would put them above the other books that the tau and eldar also squat over ... in essence making the tyranid book also OP.

Your "the sky is falling the tyranid list is 100% gimp" is also 100% hyperbole and whining.



Would you also like a cross to hang yourself from to fully paint that martyr'd image you are going for? I don't recall anyone saying anything about "badwrongfun". All that was being pointed out is that the request to have tyranids be on par with OP builds is asking for the tyranids to also be OP, not that balance is "badwrongfun".

To claim that tyranids are "gimp" is 100% **** since the book just came out and no one has played it yet to be able to say how "gimp" it is. I'm betting that after having read it that you can have lots of fun with the book, you just can't go powergame with it, which is where most of the complaints are coming from. That's not saying powergaming is bad wrong fun, or whatever martyr words we want to use, its stating that the tyranid book will have a challenging time against people who like to break the game with OP builds.

The tau book, by the way, was also raged at by the internet sages as being gimp too upon its first week's release. That turned out pretty accurate right?

Why are you so obsessed with "OP"? The best codexes can produce a handful of OP builds and a bunch of fun, balanced builds. For example, the only straight up stinker units from the Eldar dex are Banshees, and maybe the Hemlock. There's so much to do with it, even at a glance. Obviously we don't know exactly where the nid dex will fall, but at a glance, there's not a lot that stands out. What I want from nids is fun, balanced builds that can beat Eldar and Tau and SM fun, balanced, builds. And it's looking like competitive nids will be merely equivalent to balanced Eldar/Tau/SM, and fun, balanced nids will be crappy. And again, Eldar and Tau's top builds are OP *now*, yeah, but there's plenty of other builds that aren't, and more importantly, if every subsequent codex had a handful of builds on that level, and a bunch that were fun and balanced, that would be a vast improvement. Instead, nids are mediocre.

Which is worse: everyone can compete but DA and CSM, or no one can compete but Eldar and Tau?

The answer to OP is "make everyone that level", not "make everyone weak so the OP factions can dominate for the next five years."

Wazir
12-01-2014, 03:43
Its a weak codex. Like CSM without a Heldrake. Sure you can play it, and have fun if your opponent is playing a fluffy list. But normally it will be an asymmetric game and asymmetric games typically aren't fun. Playing this codex will be like playing chess and spotting your opponent a queen and rook. Fine for teaching newbies but a drag against competent opponents.

I don't mind the lack of OP units. That promotes list diversity. What does annoy me is the lack of compensation for no allies, and no transports for a CC army in a game that favors shooting, and having IB be so harmful without a balancing helpful effect.

mpepperdine
12-01-2014, 03:49
When the things you want to be on par with are the things that are overpowered, the request is for something overpowered.

It has nothing to do with the perceived notion that someone wants to takea list that they like and have a decent chance of winning. Its that there are powergaming lists already out there that are considered broken and OP that the people complaining want to be on par with that would also make those powergaming options as well. "If all choices are broken / OP then no choices are broken / OP"

Not sure about this. I don't think anyone has asked for nid units to be on par with the liked of riptides, but simply on par with the mainstay of the other codices in general.
And I'm afraid the tyranids do not fit that bill currently.

Blink
12-01-2014, 03:52
I feel like the Tyranid Codex fails to match theme to gameplay. The 5th edition codex tried with things like Ymgarl Genestealers lying in wait, Sporepods bombarding the battlefield full of critters, and it introduced half a dozen new monstrous creatures... it was just terribly executed with extremely expensive and typically unbalanced point costs, unreasonably weak options poor internal balance, and a lack of use for half its models (if it had a model at all); not to mention being shafted by the FAQ which came out over 6 months after it was released.

And instead of fixing the execution, they removed a lot of things that didn't work, nerfed a lot of things that did, and added a few things that no one wanted or asked for... Like I can safely say no one asked for special equipment, particularly expensive ones that had redundant abilities. Special Characters representing new strains and evolutionary mutations were enough. "Artifacts" makes bare minimal sense.

Removing the options to deep strike, removing the access to BRB Psychic powers, and leaving things like the Pyrovore underwhelming (which has a nice model... but cannot be used in battle with any sort of confidence especially now that you cannot drop pod it in) really make this codex a disappointment... And honestly it's surprising how disappointing this codex is considering how disappointing the last one was. There is very little in the way of creativity or new ways to play Nids. Most of the stuff is still the same, nerfed, or sidegraded. The only thing Tyranid players really have to look forward to with this codex is running bare-bones monsters en masse since point decreases are about the only objective improvement to the army... and chances are that won't be an effective strategy and play less cool than it sounds.

I think the absolute most disappointing thing about the codex is that it will be another few years until we see them try again, and hopefully with more inspiration the next go around.

IcedCrow
12-01-2014, 04:05
Not sure about this. I don't think anyone has asked for nid units to be on par with the liked of riptides, but simply on par with the mainstay of the other codices in general.
And I'm afraid the tyranids do not fit that bill currently.

As the book is less than 24 hours old, there is no way to quantify that statement yet with actual fact or experience. It is the same statement that people were making about the tau codex upon its release into our game and was the common statement for about a week or so.

And nearly 90% of all of the complaining I"ve been reading about on the various facebooks and main forums (here, dakka, bols, etc) is that the book is ***** because it cannot compete against competitive taudar lists so there's no point in using them since you will get 100% tabled every tournament matchup. I've seen the word "taudar" used in tyranid comparisons today about twenty times.

Blink
12-01-2014, 04:20
It is the same statement that people were making about the tau codex upon its release into our game and was the common statement for about a week or so.

It's also comparable to what people said about the 5th edition Tyranid Codex and that opinion remained popular for its entire run.

Muad'Dib
12-01-2014, 04:31
The treatment that Tyranids have gotten now and previously seems awfully similar to how Zerg were at start of Starcraft 2 - bland, mediocre (and useless in case of some units) compared to (some) other factions; but with a clear, narrow selection of definitely competitive options.
My (conspiracy) theory that in both cases it's the designers purposefully gimping the 'default alien bug enemies' faction so that the Terran/Space Marines playerbase feels better. I have no other clear explanation for why Pyrovore (and Hydralisk in S2) is the way it is.


Your "the sky is falling the tyranid list is 100% gimp" is also 100% hyperbole and whining.

You seem to be arguing vehemently against a view point that is barely (if at all) expressed in this thread; in fact, the person you quoted wrote "abandon fluff and fun in favor of "units that work."; so he couldn't have meant that "tyranid list is 100 % gimp.". You're twisting (rather tame) criticism/disappointment of the codex into 'whining' of 'powergamers'.

I don't recall anyone saying anything about "badwrongfun"

The #nerdrage is strong in this thread. Holy Hell.
I think it's quite refreshing to see a book that isn't a blatant nerd-**** by the author like the Eldar Codex. The Dark Angels book is fine, IMO, and was never intended to be about power gaming your way to glory. The new Tyranids seem to be a similar concept.
Considering many (most?) posts in this thread complain about lack of internal and external balance, it appears this thread has already gotten a post clearly expressing the quite common notion that wanting balance (or wanting to play without handicaps) is 'dirty' 'powergaming'.
(or, in this case - part of some 'nerdish' image that is, I guess, opposed by the happy-go-lucky 'beer n pretzels' gamer)

Voss
12-01-2014, 04:33
I think giving genestealers assault grenades and dropping them a point and letting tyranid primes give an Eternal Warrior aura to warriors would have been enough for me. Without the ability to ally, Tyranids simply don't have any good troop choices at the moment. This was one issue I had with Tau until the Farsight book came out and Crisis suits could be taken as core.

I think I see the problem now. My personal bar isn't set to 'troops must be equal to one of the better elite choices in the game.'

Chumbalaya
12-01-2014, 04:36
It is the same statement that people were making about the tau codex upon its release into our game and was the common statement for about a week or so.

It's fine if you disagree with other people, that's what forums are for. However, please do not resort to revisionist history or outright falsehoods to support your argument. Tau was, on the whole, received very well on their release. New Broadsides, Kroot and Skyrays were among the most favorably reviewed and they're still popular today. Some folks complained about losing S10 railguns, which was unwarranted, and others disliked how Stealth suits and Vespid turned out, which is understandable since they've never been standouts. The response the Tyranid Codex has received so far, regardless of its validity, has been largely negative. You have many more avenues of approach in this debate, please stick to the facts.


And nearly 90% of all of the complaining I"ve been reading about on the various facebooks and main forums (here, dakka, bols, etc) is that the book is ***** because it cannot compete against competitive taudar lists so there's no point in using them since you will get 100% tabled every tournament matchup. I've seen the word "taudar" used in tyranid comparisons today about twenty times.

In addition, please refrain from using hyperbole and "strawman" arguments to unfairly characterize those who share an opinion differing from yours. People have concerns that Tyranids may not have a significant impact on tournament play, perhaps you should wait and see before dismissing their concerns out of hand. Again, differing opinions and discussion are encouraged, but please be respectful of your fellow 'seers.

Personally, I think the book is going to be good for casual play. You can field more minis and there's a bit more customization this time around, plus the new Exocrine model is delightful. However, I am disappointed in how "samey" it all feels. The majority of units and mechanics stayed virtually the same, popular units/models were removed and many units that had problems in the last Codex (Genestealers, Warriors, Pyrovores, Harpies) look to have suffered the same fate in this iteration. My army features Warriors and Genestealers heavily, they're my favorite nid gribblies, and I'm disheartened by what I've seen. That said, I'm sure plenty of people will have fun with this Codex.

Happy gaming, all

bhusus
12-01-2014, 05:05
I'd say I'm disappointed. Now I'm no tournament player and I'm definitely not a competitive player; hell I don't even care about winning. But what the hell happened to options? I was also under the impression that more units would become MORE playable, not less (genestealers, rippers). I barely come across flyers but even I noticed the potential for problems with the Crone, but that's okay because I have other AA options right? The book is just bland; I hated that 5th removed the ability for me to customize my army, as I was more than willing to overpay for upgrades others didn't want - it was so deliciously free market in its approach to list building. This feels too copied, pasted and slightly updated to jive with the language of 6th. And the Warlord Traits? The lack of choice for Psychic powers? All I can say is why?

DoomedDiceThrower
12-01-2014, 05:16
This codex doesn't feel very alive. It feels like a zombie with a wrecked cadavre of limited builds, maybe some a little bit fun, maybe some power, but it's definitely carrying the disgusting, stinking dead and rotten flesh of Absorber swarms and pyrovores with it, units that have been so irrelevant in gaming it seems almost silly and unreasonable to ask for improvement of them by now. Yes, I want fun absorber swarms. No, not power-competetive absorberswarms. Just any kind of semi-reliable use for them. If you field them regularly, you might find some situation where they did good in 1 out of 10 games. That's not fun, it's frustrating. Looks great on pictures. Doesn't feel responsive to their point value. Oh crap, I got them for free with some of the other boxes over the years, well okay, can't ask for having fun with something that I didn't pay a lot of money for.

And lictors and genestealers are also at an awkward position despite having been at the core of iconic Tyranid creatures forever. I'd happily lose all my beer & bretzel games for 10 years if there was just some more juice to these units in games, having lost to strong opponents in action-ridden games rather to 'meh' unfluffy rule-performances.

slave
12-01-2014, 05:25
Very disapointed. Looks like we hibernate until 7th edition....

1. No grenades for cover
2. Warriors still too easy to kill
3. Still no 2+ for anyone execept for the Tyranofex
4. No beasts, really?
5. No AG/TS for Raveners?????
6. STILL no AP2 weapons?
7. Tyranids remain just as slow as IG (this is a 6th edition beef with no charge after run, and random charge distance)
8. I didn't see tervigons getting nerfed when the new models came out, no way I saw that coming a all, not one bit
9. Genestealers remain worthless
10. How do ruptides get in the game, how do wraith knights get made, yet this book has nothing like them?
11. Carnifexes are now two (2), Dos, 1+1 points of toughness lower than the wraithlords.
12. Lost the reroll on scything talons............and I am done.

Good luck guys! I will be here lurking. Will place my models with my 130 dice and wait. Good thing I bought the book first, saved me a TON of money on models.

IcedCrow
12-01-2014, 05:25
Tau was, on the whole, received very well on their release.

Holy hell how false this statement is. The rage upon the tau release was borderline neurotic... From the shores of BOLS to the fields of facebook... "OMG MY RAILGUNS WERE NERFED! GW!!! OMG KROOT SUCK GW!!!! OMG FIRE WARRIORS SUCK GW!!! THIS BOOK IS HORRIBLE"

Followed by the back and forth of "why don't you play it for a bit and then come back and say how horrible it is"

Then a week later it all went away because as we found out... the tau codex is quite strong.


In addition, please refrain from using hyperbole and "strawman" arguments to unfairly characterize those who share an opinion differing from yours

Please learn what those things are. Your quote is entirely off target to your argument. There is no hyperbole and strawman argument in the quote you use. The quote you used is what people are indeed screaming about on forums, of which you yourself are a part of on other forums such as BOLS because I've seen you reply to them and they were all about how ineffective at tournaments tyranids will be so as such the book is a failure.

Prime150
12-01-2014, 06:02
I have been on Warseer or at least reading it for a very long time but have hardly posted... But this book discussion has made me feel I should.... That being said its just an opinion that I myself see...
Funny enough as I can understand very well about books being underpowered as simply put I am an Dark Angel Player, Since 2nd edition faithfully, My "Angels of Death" Codex still on the shelf looks shamefully down on the new books! LOL

So my point.... I have read the Tyranid books over and over for two days. I have made lists compared the old books, (As I collect every Codex, Supplement and now Dataslates) And fully believe this book is another DA or CSM type book.

What does that mean, well if we are judging books based on tourney strength these books all are very much underpowered. Lacking Over powered broken units, having only one or so "MUST HAVE" units. Failing to have in army book built ways to deal with other flyers. I have played in numerous tournaments and been usually one of the only or one of 2 dark angels players...why... they are just weaker... BAD....No.. but LESS TOOLS IN THE SHED...YES.....

Can you win with this nid book?... Totally, I win with My DA's all the time.... But I can say...all wars no matter how strong the build VS a Top Tier Book with a half decent General will always feel like you just started the game with a handicap.

But remember this about CSM and Dark Angels....
Those army books Can... Take Allies from different book plugging weakness, Take most current Dataslates, Utilize fortifcations, the BRB Powers, has major forgeworld support (which apparently is fully allowed now)
Tyranids Can't/Don't... That in itself...seems to perhaps make it worse...

BUT All that said... I AM ANGRY ABOUT THIS BOOK and release!
FOR A WHOLE OTHER REASON....the META of the game....
This book is one of the few books that could have truly brought the fear of CC back to 40k.

IF that happend.... Shooty top tier armies would have to waste points on CC units to help control it...changing thier strength of the lists, changing the meta
The lesser books which have Close combat units would have been less nerfed being valuable now... rather than Awesome Shelf weights (Deathwing Knights I am looking at you!)

CSM, Dark Angels.... would have been Inherently better if the meta had CC a threat again, not even on par with Shooting... But at least a threat...
For this reason I am angry... As now only Orks have a true chance to change the Meta.....

Thats my two cents

Losing Command
12-01-2014, 06:44
How is this in any way helpful? Models with I 2 and T 3 (and lower?!) aren't very intimidating to begin with.

Yes, you hardly see any Riptides, they're just soooo bad and have I 2 as well ! Horrible :rolleyes:

To me a lot of the posts complaning about how 'bad' the codex is appear to have these long lists of what people wanted the new codex to have, but doesn't so it isn't good. Or rants about how it can't outclass the most idiotproof armylists of the moment, so it is bad. It also lacks a single unit that does everything really good for little points, which can then be taken as often as the FOC allows, which people seem to want since somewhere end 5th :cheese:
Every codex release in 6th so far has had the vocal majority go on a rail how bad the new codex is, what they think what should have changed and how all the new units are bad. Tau players were going to burn their broadsides, because they were useless now. Eldar players were laughing at how expensive that stupid Wraithknight was, which no one in their right mind was going to buy anyway because it there was no way it could earn its points back with so little damage output.
So I can't help but feel amusement at how 'faithfull tyranid players' claim how the sky has fallen, that Tyranids are now officially dead and so on. But hey, everybody deserves to have an opinion right ?

To me the tyranid codex looks like it got the same treatment as the Space Marine codex : no major overhauls, but a lot of tweaks that aren't that obvious but make the army a blast to play. And I consider the SM codex to be the best 6th edition codex so far : solid, no over the top units, and allows to build lots of different armies which are fun to play that work against anything besides the top tier tournamentlists you can win with only knowing half the rules.

Apolegies in advance for this positive note ;)

Freman Bloodglaive
12-01-2014, 07:24
Holy hell how false this statement is. The rage upon the tau release was borderline neurotic... From the shores of BOLS to the fields of facebook... "OMG MY RAILGUNS WERE NERFED! GW!!! OMG KROOT SUCK GW!!!! OMG FIRE WARRIORS SUCK GW!!! THIS BOOK IS HORRIBLE"

Now people take Fire Warriors instead of Kroot, and missile Broadsides instead of railguns.

What are the Fire Warriors and Missilesides of the Tyranid Codex?


Yes, you hardly see any Riptides, they're just soooo bad and have I 2 as well ! Horrible :rolleyes:

Fair's fair, gargoyles will struggle to do much to a Riptide, if indeed they can get close to them. One thing we do know about Tau, they have a hard counter to nearly everything that can be thrown against them.

I don't agree with the people saying that Tyranids are on the same level as Dark Angels and Chaos Space Marines. At least Dark Angels and Chaos Space Marines have access to allies and fortifications. Tyranids have to go it alone, so if there's a weakness in their list they have no way to fill the gap.

nosebiter
12-01-2014, 07:36
Yes, you hardly see any Riptides, they're just soooo bad and have I 2 as well ! Horrible :rolleyes:

To me a lot of the posts complaning about how 'bad' the codex is appear to have these long lists of what people wanted the new codex to have, but doesn't so it isn't good. Or rants about how it can't outclass the most idiotproof armylists of the moment, so it is bad. It also lacks a single unit that does everything really good for little points, which can then be taken as often as the FOC allows, which people seem to want since somewhere end 5th :cheese:
Every codex release in 6th so far has had the vocal majority go on a rail how bad the new codex is, what they think what should have changed and how all the new units are bad. Tau players were going to burn their broadsides, because they were useless now. Eldar players were laughing at how expensive that stupid Wraithknight was, which no one in their right mind was going to buy anyway because it there was no way it could earn its points back with so little damage output.
So I can't help but feel amusement at how 'faithfull tyranid players' claim how the sky has fallen, that Tyranids are now officially dead and so on. But hey, everybody deserves to have an opinion right ?

To me the tyranid codex looks like it got the same treatment as the Space Marine codex : no major overhauls, but a lot of tweaks that aren't that obvious but make the army a blast to play. And I consider the SM codex to be the best 6th edition codex so far : solid, no over the top units, and allows to build lots of different armies which are fun to play that work against anything besides the top tier tournamentlists you can win with only knowing half the rules.

Apolegies in advance for this positive note ;)

But the nids arent solid. They are just bland. Nothing stands out as fun, just mediocre.

And mediocre is the worst yardstick ever.

Ratbeast
12-01-2014, 07:40
Been over the book a lot, and still cant believe how bad the nids are...........

Dkoz
12-01-2014, 07:44
This codex seems to have a lot of different builds in it so it should be very fun to play with. It does seem like a lot of the complaints are this unit isn't unkillable enough and cheap enough. I want a 36" zone of eternal warrior radiating from my HQ and the ability to assault twice will I half the number of shots my appoint can fire at me. Now I get this is a bit of an exaggeration but the codex isn't as bad as the 3rd edition DE book being used in 5th edition 40K.

nosebiter
12-01-2014, 08:11
This codex seems to have a lot of different builds in it so it should be very fun to play with. It does seem like a lot of the complaints are this unit isn't unkillable enough and cheap enough. I want a 36" zone of eternal warrior radiating from my HQ and the ability to assault twice will I half the number of shots my appoint can fire at me. Now I get this is a bit of an exaggeration but the codex isn't as bad as the 3rd edition DE book being used in 5th edition 40K.


No but is every bit as bad ad the 5th ed Tyranid codex. The stuff you need to spam to have a shot of winning had just changed.

The book reads like it was made by the legal and accounting branches of GW. As in "these models are a nogo, because of legal stuff", and "just make stuff cheaper, so peeps need to buy more".

And worst of all, it seems uninspired and joyless. Copy paste and formulaic. The list of possibilites is endless, with it degenerating into wanting EW for everything.

What i lack is options. Right now there isnt any besides spamming alot of mediocre cheap units.

mpepperdine
12-01-2014, 08:27
With regret, it seems like Tyranids are actually the weakest of all the armies now :(

avien
12-01-2014, 08:40
When the things you want to be on par with are the things that are overpowered, the request is for something overpowered.

It has nothing to do with the perceived notion that someone wants to takea list that they like and have a decent chance of winning. Its that there are powergaming lists already out there that are considered broken and OP that the people complaining want to be on par with that would also make those powergaming options as well. "If all choices are broken / OP then no choices are broken / OP"

How about just wanting a viable close combat force like the nids are supposed to be. Honestly I've had the codex since Friday and I have two good builds in mind but they are shooty focused and it sits wrong with me...

Since third edition I've run nids and always preferred a CC swarm with some shooty back up, because I'm a fluff gamer and to me that's what the nids are all about...

They weren't a CC force to be reckoned with before this codex, and this codex takes away the couple of decent advantages in combat that they had - the scything talon rerolls for one...

Now sure I can just alter the list and play the shooty nids with MC combat backup...

My problem isn't that they aren't overpowered or on par with something else, it's that in an edition where shooting is king, it would have been nice to have an army whose entire background focuses on them ripping things apart with tooth and claw actually be able to do that...

Pallander
12-01-2014, 09:52
With the new Hive Tyrant you need either to put him in a brood(Tyrant Guard or Carnifex) to actually protect him and let him lead his swarm. Or you could let him fly around trying to avoid skyfire or other flyers. Well you could also hide him way back in you lines.... But seriously shouldn't he lead his swarm using his synapse range, instead of giving away Slay the warlord, a leader that can take some damage? I have played a game and guess what, my Tyrant got slayed a couple of melta and plasma toke care of him.. You do have a little chance to get some protection and that is if you get feel no pain(trait or psychic power). Regeneration is another way but so many points (10p more than a fixed save) and you get one 4+ to regain 1 wound/turn, it's a joke.

The Lictor and Genestealers, have hardly a chance to actually get in CC, no new rules to to help them actually assault is a flaw. A Space marine is way more worth it's point than stealer(almost tha same points).

The good thing in the list is that you shooty stuff is actually good, but the melee is nerfed. I really whised that they actually should have balanced up the meele lists a in favour against the shooty ones..

(I also play Tau and I play both with Fire Warriors and Kroot(cheap troop points), and I had a positive attitude when that codex was released. The Nids is another story..)

Kijamon
12-01-2014, 10:04
With the new Hive Tyrant you need either to put him in a brood(Tyrant Guard or Carnifex) to actually protect him and let him lead his swarm. Or you could let him fly around trying to avoid skyfire or other flyers. Well you could also hide him way back in you lines.... But seriously shouldn't he lead his swarm using his synapse range, instead of giving away Slay the warlord, a leader that can take some damage? I have played a game and guess what, my Tyrant got slayed a couple of melta and plasma toke care of him.. You do have a little chance to get some protection and that is if you get feel no pain(trait or psychic power). Regeneration is another way but so many points (10p more than a fixed save) and you get one 4+ to regain 1 wound/turn, it's a joke.

The Lictor and Genestealers, have hardly a chance to actually get in CC, no new rules to to help them actually assault is a flaw. A Space marine is way more worth it's point than stealer(almost tha same points).

The good thing in the list is that you shooty stuff is actually good, but the melee is nerfed. I really whised that they actually should have balanced up the meele lists a in favour against the shooty ones..

(I also play Tau and I play both with Fire Warriors and Kroot(cheap troop points), and I had a positive attitude when that codex was released. The Nids is another story..)

Except you can't put him with Carnifexes cause he's not an IC. Which is where the Prime gets a bit better.

Killgore
12-01-2014, 10:19
Strange how the local Tyranid player had a look through the codex and seemed rather pleased with the book.

He has a modest collection of different units, never looks online at power builds and buys units that he likes the look off.

He compared a few points costs, noting how he could field more of his favoured units and liked the look of the new units.

Now compare this simple adult gamer who plays for fun with a few mates to some of the people in this thread. Can't please everyone I guess.

still-young
12-01-2014, 12:01
I don't have my book yet (it's being delivered tomorrow) but I have spent 135 on this release (quite a lot for a student I'd say) and I am damn well gonna enjoy it. The models are awesome, looking forward to conversions and painting, and I'm not looking for some uber powered list, so I think I'll enjoy the tyranids (for theme/models/fluff etc) and I still have the tau and eldar codexes if I ever want to win ;)

Pallander
12-01-2014, 12:02
Except you can't put him with Carnifexes cause he's not an IC. Which is where the Prime gets a bit better.

Yes you are right, that option is gone as well no IMC...

TheBearminator
12-01-2014, 12:03
Regarding the hive tyrant. From what I understand she dropped a lot in price. If you can't buy her 2+ armour anymore, you can as well give her wings? I mean, you can't go wrong with a classic flyrant, right? Those things were hell even before, even though they're very expensive.

DoomedDiceThrower
12-01-2014, 12:08
.
Now compare this simple adult gamer who plays for fun with a few mates to some of the people in this thread. Can't please everyone I guess.

Me, and I would guess some other people in these threads are adult gamers who enjoy playing for fun with mates too, if you're implying otherwise. I field thematic lists regularly, which get blasted apart by my beginner mate, and it's all alright.

The Innovation and creativity in this book is thin and stale, with unfixed problems that wouldn't even need that to be fixed.

And I am pleased that I can field fexes again too... but only in the same way that I will be pleased when a vanguard supplement should make stealers viable and fluffy again. There won't be any flicker of thankfullness towards GW involved.

Vaktathi
12-01-2014, 12:13
This book has all the same problems of the CSM codex, except it's actually worse in terms of gameplay. It doesn't seem like there was much thought given to how this army plays at all or how the 6E rules actually work on a table. I look at those awesome Tyranid Warrior models and I weep because there's no way anyone's going to run they when they cost twice what they should. It really feels like they just changed some points values without any rhyme or reason, cut anything related to the Chapterhouse dispute, and tossed in a couple Epic era units just for kicks, without addressing the Tyranids 5th or 6th edition issues. While it looks like there may be some workable stuff, overall I'm just left wondering how anyone could have let this go to printing.

nosebiter
12-01-2014, 12:17
This book has all the same problems of the CSM codex, except it's actually worse in terms of gameplay. It doesn't seem like there was much thought given to how this army plays at all or how the 6E rules actually work on a table. I look at those awesome Tyranid Warrior models and I weep because there's no way anyone's going to run they when they cost twice what they should. It really feels like they just changed some points values without any rhyme or reason, cut anything related to the Chapterhouse dispute, and tossed in a couple Epic era units just for kicks, without addressing the Tyranids 5th or 6th edition issues. While it looks like there may be some workable stuff, overall I'm just left wondering how anyone could have let this go to printing.

Easy money.

And its a codex that promotes swarm style play, so generates more sales.

The top brass was pleased.

Grarik
12-01-2014, 12:19
Regarding the hive tyrant. From what I understand she dropped a lot in price. If you can't buy her 2+ armour anymore, you can as well give her wings? I mean, you can't go wrong with a classic flyrant, right? Those things were hell even before, even though they're very expensive.

the tyrant did drop in price, by 5pts. wings got alot cheaper, but all the biomorphs and weapons either stayed the same price or got more expensive, plus the unique upgrades got weaker. You will see more flying tyrants, thats for certain, but only because there isn't any reason not to buy it wings anymore; the walking tyrant is a distant second in terms of usefullness

nosebiter
12-01-2014, 12:20
Regarding the hive tyrant. From what I understand she dropped a lot in price. If you can't buy her 2+ armour anymore, you can as well give her wings? I mean, you can't go wrong with a classic flyrant, right? Those things were hell even before, even though they're very expensive.

Its the only build that makes sense now. It it just so much better then a walking one it is hilareous.

Vaktathi
12-01-2014, 12:22
Easy money.

And its a codex that promotes swarm style play, so generates more sales.

The top brass was pleased.


The problem is that Swarm play doesn't work particularly well in this edition, and they haven't done a whole lot to emphasize Swarm play within the book relative to the last one, in fact they even made the "Swarm" units in the codex more expensive points-wise and increased the cost of their CC upgrades, while the horde-y Termagant and Hormagaunt units remain largely the same with the support MC for Termagants performing less capably.

Blink
12-01-2014, 12:28
Strange how the local Tyranid player had a look through the codex and seemed rather pleased with the book.

He has a modest collection of different units, never looks online at power builds and buys units that he likes the look off.

He compared a few points costs, noting how he could field more of his favoured units and liked the look of the new units.

Now compare this simple adult gamer who plays for fun with a few mates to some of the people in this thread. Can't please everyone I guess.


...


... Now compare this simple adult gamer who plays for fun ...

... Why? Why compare the hearsay of your anecdotal friend to anyone else? Does he have the same priorities of other people here? Or is he a paragon role-model others should look to emulate? I love the implication behind "simple adult" as adjectives used to praise simplicity as if more strategic, complex, and diverse people are a bad thing.

I've seen that a lot on here. People who complain that those who don't like the book are "powergamers" and use that as a pejorative. It's unfitting, says bad things about people who DO play competitively (which there is nothing wrong with), and undermines all the other poorly designed aspects that have plagued the last 2 editions of the Tyranid Codex that almost everyone despises.

Mandragola
12-01-2014, 12:48
Up to a point, we just have to see what happens. I actually think Nid armies are going to look very similar in future to how they looked with the last book.

HQ looks like it will be 2 dakka flyrants as standard. Wings are under-costed by miles for what they do.

For troops, tervigons and gaunts. Tervigons not T9 any more, which is good. That was always stupid and I'm glad it's gone. Otherwise it's a bit better, and pricier, with the option to take artifacts. Overall it's a bit worse, but from a starting point that was probably not right.

Then there will be a spattering of other stuff to suit. Exocrines seem like they should be popular, thanks to their ap2 ranged attacks. They look kind of spammable. Biovores might be excellent I think.

No AA though. The two new FMCs are both too soft to take to the air and not much use against enemy flyers anyway. Quad guns wound them on a 2+ with no save. They are chewed up by storm talons and even nephilim. There may be a case for bringing a crone, but I can't see any use for a harpy since none of its guns even work against planes and its vector strike is weak.

I think the comparison with the DA and CSM books is reasonable. It's an average book with some decent units and some bad ones. Pyrovores baffle me.

Overall I greet this book with a shrug. It's not offensively bad but doesn't change anything.

Inquisitor Shego
12-01-2014, 13:15
I actually like this book a lot. The only thing that doesn't wow me is the lack of 2+ saves. Carnifexes now **** scared of missile launchers seems a bit off.

"use cover" someone shouted from the back of the room.

But other than that, a nice good solid even codex. No Helldrake, and no Riptide, and no Wave Serpent. Likewise no forced challenges, or turning into a daemon prince. I am pleased :D

pantsukki
12-01-2014, 13:30
Carnifexes now **** scared of missile launchers seems a bit off.


Why? They (krak missiles) are heavy AT-missiles after all.

kafrique
12-01-2014, 13:33
...



... Why? Why compare the hearsay of your anecdotal friend to anyone else? Does he have the same priorities of other people here? Or is he a paragon role-model others should look to emulate? I love the implication behind "simple adult" as adjectives used to praise simplicity as if more strategic, complex, and diverse people are a bad thing.

I've seen that a lot on here. People who complain that those who don't like the book are "powergamers" and use that as a pejorative. It's unfitting, says bad things about people who DO play competitively (which there is nothing wrong with), and undermines all the other poorly designed aspects that have plagued the last 2 editions of the Tyranid Codex that almost everyone despises.

This. It happens every time anyone speaks up about rules, because the GW playerbase has a uniquely awful segment who thinks you should only play by chucking together random units without care for how they play on the tabletop. If you enjoy the listbuilding, tactical side of gameplay at all, and are dissatisfied with something, you're a whiny, lonely, pathetic nerd who gets your rocks off by destroying people in Warhammer via op armies.

It's great if your friends are all "simple adults" (wtf??) who play by randomly selecting units from D20 tables, but in my group we play to win. We're not dicks about it. We're friends. We stay away from clearly broken builds and most of us have themes. My main Eldar list is mostly wraithstuff with a guardian blob and a dire avenger squad and some vehicle support. 1-2 serpents. Pretty fluffy Iyanden, IMHO, and decent in-game. I choose my models to be fluffy while still performing together well when I play. My opponents do the same. I'm pretty confident that taking the same approach with the new nids will result in handicapped lists.

Every book should be Eldar and Tau. That way top-tier competitive players could play a wide range of armies and still have power builds, and everyone else would have loads of choices. Instead nid players get to play an uphill battle and Eldar players get to feel bad for putting down wave serpents they bought ten years ago.

BTW, How many of you are actually familiar with people who regularly attend tournies and get the top spots? Contrary to the internet portrayal of frothing nerd lunatics, I find they tend to be nice guys, often good painters, and almost always polite and smart. The worst people I've played against have all been "fluff" players who rage and smear everyone better at the game than them. If you're not interested in playing a tactical wargame then why are you playing?

Mike_Mee
12-01-2014, 13:35
From what I've gathered from people talking about, nids seem to have a not great saves in comparison to the older dex but are a bit cheaper if you don't tool them up. I'm not too sure what people feel as a whole, but I'm not convinced it's that big a deal, but I suppose it depends on play style. I am now preparing to be shot down by hard core players now ;-)

What are people thoughts on Tyranid Warriors? I really used to like using them when I played nids, a nice kit and cool models. Also, the Exocrine is an ace model :-)

bhusus
12-01-2014, 13:51
From what I've gathered from people talking about, nids seem to have a not great saves in comparison to the older dex but are a bit cheaper if you don't tool them up. I'm not too sure what people feel as a whole, but I'm not convinced it's that big a deal, but I suppose it depends on play style. I am now preparing to be shot down by hard core players now ;-)

What are people thoughts on Tyranid Warriors? I really used to like using them when I played nids, a nice kit and cool models. Also, the Exocrine is an ace model :-)

I think the only saving grace of the 'Nids currently are the minis themselves; simply put, I love the vast majority of them and will buy to convert and paint for my collection. The 6th Ed rules on the other hand I will be seriously revising with a 4th Ed Codex in hand: that book made you pay for a horde of options and that's what is really missing here - just straight up choices.

Blink
12-01-2014, 13:56
I actually like this book a lot. The only thing that doesn't wow me is the lack of 2+ saves. Carnifexes now **** scared of missile launchers seems a bit off.

They didn't have a 2+ save last edition either.

Grarik
12-01-2014, 13:57
What are people thoughts on Tyranid Warriors? I really used to like using them when I played nids, a nice kit and cool models. Also, the Exocrine is an ace model :-)

I think you will see warriors starting to appear in lists, not because they're good, but because they're a relatively cheap source of synapse in a slot that won't be too crowded. I'd imagine that a minimum sized brood, maybe with a barbed strangler/venom cannon, could be a likely companion to exocrines/biovores, so that they don't stuff around

Cosmic_Girl
12-01-2014, 14:02
Hey guys,

I've had the codex for 5 days now and some friends and I have had a few games (12ish games collectively) with them, (differing builds, differing lists (top, middle and bottom tier)), and while I don't claim to know the ins and outs of every aspect of the codex yet, everything I've seen so far confirms my suspicions upon my initial read, that nids don't seem to "pop" like some other books do. It does feel bland and without much combo to make people want to play it and try new interactions and explore, which is my first and most serious criticism. Secondly, it isn't a top-tier dex, it will never be a match for Eldar and Tau, so if that's what you're after, this isn't the book for you. This isn't a criticism, because, (as an Eldar player) I think Tau and Eldar are both horrendously over-powered (and have thought this since my first read of both books) and I don't think having another book like that in the meta will improve things, unless that book serves as a hard counter for them and reduces their prevalence.

Thirdly, there were short-falls in the previous book, wasted opportunities, costing issues, internal balance issues etc... and I don't think many people would disagree. My next criticism is that the new book does not seem to have adequately addressed many of these issues. In fact, many unit entries appear to be direct copy-paste reiterations of previous entries. As someone in this thread has already stated, if they'd tried to do something original to resolve these issues and failed, that'd be one thing, but to fail to recognise these issues, or not bother to address them at all is another thing entirely. It just feels like lazy writing, by people not really invested in the development of the army. Many really popular options and clever and simple to implement mechanics have been abolished for no apparent reason (I don't think anyone had a problem with the way Spore Pods, Devourer class weapons or Scything Talons worked did they?) I'll reserve final judgement for a week or so, but all the games I've personally played and observed with them over the past few days supports my initial feelings and as a general rule, I don't usually mis-read codecies popularity and power, but here's hoping

Cosmic.

Yvain
12-01-2014, 14:07
I am not a Nid player. However, it is plain see. The removal of certain units for no reason(pod, doom, parasite etc etc), strange point increases (rippers, costs of some models), no upgrades or changes to near useless models (pyrovores, warriors), no addressing the inability to take allies, it must be infuriating. I played a game with an army I am not too familiar with verse my buddies nids. It was a beat down. I keep thinking if I got my guard out, how much worse it would have been.

The good is they removed the reliance on some gimmicks like biomancy and Tervigon spam. However, they gave so little in return the codex still looks like an overall weakening of things. New powers are not that strong. Tervigons die easier and are expensive so they might not even be worth it any more. Synapse is much worse.

As a result of all these changes, I worry it basically becomes a lets find new gimmicks to rely on because it is the only way to stand a chance. Hopefully, I am wrong.

ihavetoomuchminis
12-01-2014, 14:20
I feel empathy for the tyrannid players. I am a CSM player.

A.T.
12-01-2014, 14:30
The removal of certain units for no reason(pod, doom, parasite etc etc)No models. The same thing happened with the sisters ebook and it may well bite the orks too.

Vipoid
12-01-2014, 14:36
The removal of certain units for no reason(pod, doom, parasite etc etc)

Oh, there is a reason - GW couldn't be bothered making models for them. So, people were making their own or (God forbid) buying similar models (http://privateerpress.com/files/products/73075_AfflictorWEB.jpg) from different retailers. Obviously GW didn't like the possibility of people buying models from other shops, but nor did they want to make models for those units. So, they just removed them from the codex.

Panzer MkIV
12-01-2014, 14:48
There was only 1 thing I wanted in 6th edition: a fun and functional Tyranid Codex!

Cruddace strikes again :cries:

Cosmic_Girl
12-01-2014, 14:58
Oh, there is a reason - GW couldn't be bothered making models for them. So, people were making their own or (God forbid) buying similar models from different retailers. Obviously GW didn't like the possibility of people buying models from other shops, but nor did they want to make models for those units. So, they just removed them from the codex.

It DOES feel like a "Screw you" by GW to the people who bought 3rd party replacement models for those units, since GW dragged their feet for an entire edition with a third of the models in the nid codex.

Cosmic.

Mike_Mee
12-01-2014, 15:13
I think the only saving grace of the 'Nids currently are the minis themselves; simply put, I love the vast majority of them and will buy to convert and paint for my collection. The 6th Ed rules on the other hand I will be seriously revising with a 4th Ed Codex in hand: that book made you pay for a horde of options and that's what is really missing here - just straight up choices.

I love the miniature range too, but with out going into much detail I won't be collecting nids due to the general cost of war gaming, maybe when I have finished other personal projects I may get back into 40k again. I'll just have to wait until a client sends me some nice mini's, then I'll have my play time :-)

toddznidz
12-01-2014, 15:15
The whole things smacks of GW protecting it's IP, selling Exocrine models, and continuing to take a big 'ol dump on Nid players.

The only thing I want for Christmas next year is for Robin Cruddace to never write another rule for GW.... EVER.

HereComesTomorrow
12-01-2014, 15:17
The good is they removed the reliance on some gimmicks like biomancy and Tervigon spam.

I would argue that those aren't gimmicks but just the most obvious choices in a book of terrible options.

Biomancy makes sense for Nids, I can't imagine that anyone would argue otherwise, and the Tervigon was basically a ground transport, and its a fluffy unit that didn't deserve to be nerfed nearly as badly as it was.

Chumbalaya
12-01-2014, 15:18
Holy hell how false this statement is. The rage upon the tau release was borderline neurotic... From the shores of BOLS to the fields of facebook... "OMG MY RAILGUNS WERE NERFED! GW!!! OMG KROOT SUCK GW!!!! OMG FIRE WARRIORS SUCK GW!!! THIS BOOK IS HORRIBLE"

Followed by the back and forth of "why don't you play it for a bit and then come back and say how horrible it is"

Then a week later it all went away because as we found out... the tau codex is quite strong.

Please check here (http://www.3plusplus.net/2013/04/oh-hello-there-new-tau/). That's the Tau response I remember, overall very positive.


Please learn what those things are. Your quote is entirely off target to your argument. There is no hyperbole and strawman argument in the quote you use. The quote you used is what people are indeed screaming about on forums, of which you yourself are a part of on other forums such as BOLS because I've seen you reply to them and they were all about how ineffective at tournaments tyranids will be so as such the book is a failure.

Hyperbole is purposeful exaggeration, like

there's no point in using them since you will get 100% tabled every tournament matchup.
I seriously doubt anyone ever said this.

A strawman argument is when you put words in someone else's mouth to make your argument easier. For example,

you yourself are a part of on other forums such as BOLS because I've seen you reply to them and they were all about how ineffective at tournaments tyranids will be so as such the book is a failure.
I never said that. I have said that I don't like the new book because my favorite units, Warriors and Genestealers, stayed mostly the same with little to no improvement. I didn't say anything about taking my Tyranids to tournaments or that the book was a failure because of it.

So, I'll reiterate, it's fine that you like the book or that you disagree with the opinions of others. However, when making your case, please avoid these common pitfalls and be more courteous towards your fellow forumgoer.

Thanks

facepalm
12-01-2014, 15:25
What is everyone thinking off for there troops slots now? I'm leaning towards 30 basic term a cheapish tervigon and a small unit off warriors. Maybe horms if i have points left over, which i doubt.

waterhou
12-01-2014, 15:29
first post on here. hello everyone.

From what I've read on here and other forums (haven't read my own dex yet as it hasn't arrived from GW. Would love somebody to explain the point in pre-ordering with them if they can't get the product to you on release date, I would have been better off popping into my local GW yesterday and buying a dex...but thats a whole seperate thread!)
Anyway, this codex seems very underpowered.

We all knew the problems and they addressed none of them. If they had given us a universal special rule that Nid assault units got baked in assault grenades it would have been something decent at least.

I actually think its time the playerbase took it into there own hands to balance the nids. I'd like to see tournament organisers give soft armies more points to spend, in a kind of handicapping system. I don't think an extra 500 points of nids would offset how bad they will generally be in competitive play against hard lists.

I also encourage that if your playing against your mates taudar list ask him if you can add 500 points. It will make a game of it at least. unless he is just in it to crush your soft army.
Getting tabled turn 2-3 is no fun for you or your opponent from my experience. I don't remember these kind of games but I do remember the closely fought ones and they are still talked about today among my group of mates

sturguard
12-01-2014, 15:39
I understand folks being disappointed in the new Nid codex, maybe its good, maybe its bad, I havent had a chance to look through it, however, I do feel bad for folks who spend hours on their minis only to see them represented by less than stellar rules.

However, I do see alot of people bemoaning the fact that Nids can't field a nigh unstoppable close combat army and march across the board to victory. Am I the only one who feels there is a reason for this, beyond the designers intentionally wanting to neuter the Nid dex as lots of folks are suggesting. 40K isn't meant to handle a RELIABLE (that is the key word here) close combat army as it would destroy the whole cinematic/narrative feel of the game. If with the Nid codex you could make reliable CC builds that on any tourney board could march across the board and win against the best shooting armies in the game, most of the mechanics of 40k would be lost. Close combats against Nids would in general be one sided, so once the army started engaging in enemy units, the game would be over. In fantasy (Which is far more close combat oriented) you can flee charges, you can run after being defeated and rally (even using your general's ldr and rerolls from a standard bearer). In 40k, you lose combat, you more or less die. If you manage to escape and have significant numbers left in your squad, you may live to have some impact again in the game, but in general, against a close combat specialist unit, you won't have significant numbers left. The current rules favor (and I think were set up for) shooting. If a unit makes it into close combat, given the current ruleset, more than likely they will be damaged in some way (Either a squad being at less than full strength or an MC having lost wounds)- this gives that non close combat unit a chance to get lucky and still win the combat. I am not saying Nids dont deserve their due, I think they deserve a well thought out book just like the rest, I just dont think the 40k environment can handle an army that can reliably get into close combat in each game, it wouldnt be good for what the designers are trying to push in this edition. Or, I could just be full of rubbish and not know what the heck I am talking about.

facepalm
12-01-2014, 16:09
I understand folks being disappointed in the new Nid codex, maybe its good, maybe its bad, I havent had a chance to look through it, however, I do feel bad for folks who spend hours on their minis only to see them represented by less than stellar rules.

However, I do see alot of people bemoaning the fact that Nids can't field a nigh unstoppable close combat army and march across the board to victory. Am I the only one who feels there is a reason for this, beyond the designers intentionally wanting to neuter the Nid dex as lots of folks are suggesting. 40K isn't meant to handle a RELIABLE (that is the key word here) close combat army as it would destroy the whole cinematic/narrative feel of the game. If with the Nid codex you could make reliable CC builds that on any tourney board could march across the board and win against the best shooting armies in the game, most of the mechanics of 40k would be lost. Close combats against Nids would in general be one sided, so once the army started engaging in enemy units, the game would be over. In fantasy (Which is far more close combat oriented) you can flee charges, you can run after being defeated and rally (even using your general's ldr and rerolls from a standard bearer). In 40k, you lose combat, you more or less die. If you manage to escape and have significant numbers left in your squad, you may live to have some impact again in the game, but in general, against a close combat specialist unit, you won't have significant numbers left. The current rules favor (and I think were set up for) shooting. If a unit makes it into close combat, given the current ruleset, more than likely they will be damaged in some way (Either a squad being at less than full strength or an MC having lost wounds)- this gives that non close combat unit a chance to get lucky and still win the combat. I am not saying Nids dont deserve their due, I think they deserve a well thought out book just like the rest, I just dont think the 40k environment can handle an army that can reliably get into close combat in each game, it wouldnt be good for what the designers are trying to push in this edition. Or, I could just be full of rubbish and not know what the heck I am talking about.

Maybe but CC was hit one to many times with the nerf stick already so in order to compete you need to have some pretty good options, we have nothing close to as good at CC as most races have for shooting.

nosebiter
12-01-2014, 16:11
I understand folks being disappointed in the new Nid codex, maybe its good, maybe its bad, I havent had a chance to look through it, however, I do feel bad for folks who spend hours on their minis only to see them represented by less than stellar rules.

However, I do see alot of people bemoaning the fact that Nids can't field a nigh unstoppable close combat army and march across the board to victory. Am I the only one who feels there is a reason for this, beyond the designers intentionally wanting to neuter the Nid dex as lots of folks are suggesting. 40K isn't meant to handle a RELIABLE (that is the key word here) close combat army as it would destroy the whole cinematic/narrative feel of the game. If with the Nid codex you could make reliable CC builds that on any tourney board could march across the board and win against the best shooting armies in the game, most of the mechanics of 40k would be lost. Close combats against Nids would in general be one sided, so once the army started engaging in enemy units, the game would be over. In fantasy (Which is far more close combat oriented) you can flee charges, you can run after being defeated and rally (even using your general's ldr and rerolls from a standard bearer). In 40k, you lose combat, you more or less die. If you manage to escape and have significant numbers left in your squad, you may live to have some impact again in the game, but in general, against a close combat specialist unit, you won't have significant numbers left. The current rules favor (and I think were set up for) shooting. If a unit makes it into close combat, given the current ruleset, more than likely they will be damaged in some way (Either a squad being at less than full strength or an MC having lost wounds)- this gives that non close combat unit a chance to get lucky and still win the combat. I am not saying Nids dont deserve their due, I think they deserve a well thought out book just like the rest, I just dont think the 40k environment can handle an army that can reliably get into close combat in each game, it wouldnt be good for what the designers are trying to push in this edition. Or, I could just be full of rubbish and not know what the heck I am talking about.


I am aiming for the latter ;-).

Cinematic can also be a swarm rushing across the table, taking huge losses amongst the meatshields, the defenders desperate to kill enough to matter, before the swarm crashes against the enemys lines.

You know like they do in the fluff :-)

nosebiter
12-01-2014, 16:12
What is everyone thinking off for there troops slots now? I'm leaning towards 30 basic term a cheapish tervigon and a small unit off warriors. Maybe horms if i have points left over, which i doubt.

Is that enough? I doubt it. The warriors will be gone quickly, as they are easy to kill.

IcedCrow
12-01-2014, 16:15
Please check here (http://www.3plusplus.net/2013/04/oh-hello-there-new-tau/). That's the Tau response I remember, overall very positive.



Hyperbole is purposeful exaggeration, like

I seriously doubt anyone ever said this.

A strawman argument is when you put words in someone else's mouth to make your argument easier. For example,

I never said that. I have said that I don't like the new book because my favorite units, Warriors and Genestealers, stayed mostly the same with little to no improvement. I didn't say anything about taking my Tyranids to tournaments or that the book was a failure because of it.

So, I'll reiterate, it's fine that you like the book or that you disagree with the opinions of others. However, when making your case, please avoid these common pitfalls and be more courteous towards your fellow forumgoer.

Thanks

I watched you just yesterday antagonize and troll the **** out of people on bols so do me a fav and stop talking out both sides of your mouth about courtesy towards your fellow forum goers.

Your experiences towards the tau rage differs from mine. We can leave it at that.

As to your strawman etc claims, there is no strawman because i am replying about exactly that response. There is no exaggeration, its around in plentiful quantities on various forums people complaining that there are no builds to match the current op builds so they are shelving their army.

Im sure there are those that are just talking about one unit or two units. Wonderful. Those arent the people that i am addressing.

For everyone else - can we wait a month or two before raging after weve seen the book used instead of being armchair game designers?

I know it seems that that request needs to be made after every release it seems but screaming about a book that hasnt been played yet seems to be a lot over the top.

A.T.
12-01-2014, 16:28
(haven't read my own dex yet as it hasn't arrived from GW) / Anyway, this codex seems very underpowered.I would start by waiting for the book, more than a few of the posts here are of dubious validity (such as the poster earlier decrying the total lack of AP2 weapons, beasts, assault grenades, etc).

Army lists and game posts appearing over in the tactica forum might be a better point to start. The general theme so far is that tervigon spam is out, double flyrant is popular (and a fair bit cheaper), venomthropes are everywhere, and there seems to be no concensus on the heavy support between the altered mawloc, cheaper fexes, improved biovores, and plasma pieplates.

Troops appear to be the main point of contention - 120pts gets you a blob of 30 that can pack in as many or as few S4 assault 3 weapons as you want behind a wall of the cheaper fleshborers but it's a fair ways back from the (unintended) power of the biomancy tervigons and the loss of mycetic spores due to lack of model hasn't helped.

Pallander
12-01-2014, 16:41
The Nid should be some kind of antipole against the ranged based codexes and become a hint of what to co come for the melee based codexes. And I think they are a great disappointment.. You could always ask this guy.. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Kr5KsPvBWE

Blink
12-01-2014, 16:45
Just ignore that IcedCrow guy. I just remembered him trolling the hell out of people a year ago about Necron too. He has what I like to call aggressive optimism where if you try to look at things objectively and address fundamental flaws in design, you are a terrible hopeless pessimistic troglodyte not worthy of an opinion. Just ignore him.

IcedCrow
12-01-2014, 16:55
Theres a fundamental difference between "objective analysis" and "screaming in rage about a codex well before it even came out"

If you wish to call my contention with this "aggressive optimism", have at it.

There have been plenty of conversations ive had with actual constructive criticism involved, i just think raging about a codex before its even been released is one of the quintessential signs of complaining for the sake of complaining.

Chumbalaya
12-01-2014, 17:10
I watched you just yesterday antagonize and troll the **** out of people on bols so do me a fav and stop talking out both sides of your mouth about courtesy towards your fellow forum goers.

I'm sorry, what? I was curious about what others were finding from the Codex and asked just that. The responses I got, however, were very unpleasant, much like yours. The forum has censors for a reason, profanity is not necessary.


Your experiences towards the tau rage differs from mine. We can leave it at that.

Fair enough, though hopefully this new perspective may encourage you to refrain from speaking in overly general terms.


As to your strawman etc claims, there is no strawman because i am replying about exactly that response. There is no exaggeration, its around in plentiful quantities on various forums people complaining that there are no builds to match the current op builds so they are shelving their army.

You can claim that, but you did put words in my mouth to argue against them, which is a strawman.

the book is ***** because it cannot compete against competitive taudar lists so there's no point in using them since you will get 100% tabled every tournament matchup.
This is hyperbole. I seriously doubt that anyone is claiming that new Tyranids will get 100% tabled every game.


Im sure there are those that are just talking about one unit or two units. Wonderful. Those arent the people that i am addressing.

You speak in such broad terms, you appear to be addressing everyone who has issues with the new book. Perhaps qualify your statements to avoid further confusion?


For everyone else - can we wait a month or two before raging after weve seen the book used instead of being armchair game designers?

From what I've seen, the folks who are the most antagonistic are those who share your view. Two months from now, Warriors and Genestealers will likely be in the same state. Perhaps GW could release an errata that radically changes them or a supplement that radically changes the army, but I doubt it. All we have to talk about now is the Codex we have in hand. I understand that you like the Codex, but that's no reason to shout down and disparage those who don't.


I know it seems that that request needs to be made after every release it seems but screaming about a book that hasnt been played yet seems to be a lot over the top.

Again, your choice of language presents an aggressive, antagonistic tone.


Just ignore that IcedCrow guy. I just remembered him trolling the hell out of people a year ago about Necron too. He has what I like to call aggressive optimism where if you try to look at things objectively and address fundamental flaws in design, you are a terrible hopeless pessimistic troglodyte not worthy of an opinion. Just ignore him.

I think it would be wise to do so, but I think addressing such behaviors will be good for the community in the long run. This isn't a 24 hour new channel, people can have differing opinions and still be courteous towards one another.

Happy gaming

Blink
12-01-2014, 17:23
There have been plenty of conversations ive had with actual constructive criticism involved, i just think raging about a codex before its even been released is one of the quintessential signs of complaining for the sake of complaining.

Nope. Most people have seen it and can look at it in context of the game. People who have heard what's in it can place that into perspective as well. If Tervigons are 35 more points and gained nothing for it, people know what that means. If there are no mycetic spores and the army is once again forced to slog across the map, they know what that means too. If the problems with Warriors, Genestealers, and Raveners didn't get addressed, people know what that means. If their favorite units didn't make it into the codex, they can understand that. It's criticizing and being disappointed in the codex pretty much because it deserves it. Rather than bashing people for disliking it, sell the good traits. Don't go all ad-hominem with strawman arguments on the situation.

Inquisitor Shego
12-01-2014, 17:26
To be fair Icedcrow you don't exactly conduct yourself well in a CSM thread either. I just put it down to you passionately loving the hobby to the point of losing yourself in the moment though.


They didn't have a 2+ save last edition either.

Did they not? My bad and you're right.


Why? They (krak missiles) are heavy AT-missiles after all.

Valid point, but missiles are so cheap and common, even a reduced carnifex seems like a suicidal option. I guess I'm from the REALLY old school that remembers seeing a carnifex in 2nd Ed and going "Oh jesus christ!!"

Still, I like this dex. Nothing miraculous, but one thing it does remind me of is Jervis Johnson during the last final release of Epic, when Tyranids got an Epic army list released. Harspurex, Trygon, Exocrine, Dactalyis, all got labeled as "Tyranid Tank" and fair play to him, Jervis flat out said "I've got no clue what to do with Nids, because in Epic, Orks do it all already." Something tells me GW has this now with Nids. Daemons are a close combat army, with weird and whacky, and Orks are the same. The only difference seems to be a step toward giving you more nidzilla.

Still, I'm damned tempted. Soooooooooo damn tempted to give them a go. This strikes me as a fun army that looks sexy as hell on the battlefield. New kits are stunning, and that 108 army box is lush.

Cosmic_Girl
12-01-2014, 17:38
I know it seems that that request needs to be made after every release it seems but screaming about a book that hasnt been played yet seems to be a lot over the top.

Ummm, I think "screaming" is probably a strong term for most people, and I have played the book. Rather than shouting you down, if you, yourself have also had first hand experience with the new codex, I would be interested to hear your perspective on any of the specific issues that I've raised.

Cosmic.

A.T.
12-01-2014, 17:38
You could always ask this guy..I'd wait for him to read the whole book first - see his review of the biovores for instance.

Inquisitor Shego
12-01-2014, 17:44
I don't want to sound like I'm picking sides, but those who were unhappy with it, did you have aspirations for something else? If so, what were they? What were you hoping for but didn't get? I'm quite curious.

Sophet Drahas
12-01-2014, 17:53
The Fourth ed codex was a gem. Oh, I'm sure it had its flaws too, but the sheer variety of options for each brood, the layout, presentation, the approach to fluff (everything from Imperial POV trying to understand the Tyranids). A gem.

The fluff in the last one was torture to read, painfully basic and poorly worded.

How does the fluff and presentation look in the new 'dex?

4th Ed was Andy Chambers and Phil Kelly. Chambers had done the previous two codices as well so that's why we got some crossover. And from what I've seen, Phil Kelly has done some of the better codices over the years.

And I agree, the 4th Ed codex is my favorite too.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk (http://tapatalk.com/m?id=1)

Blink
12-01-2014, 18:00
I think people were looking for something far different from the 5th edition codex and instead it turned out to be more of the same but worse. The good things like spore pods, ymgarl genestealers, and fun things like the Doom of Malantai were just flat out removed and nothing replaced them. I think people were looking for something with Eternal Warrior, good psychic presence (if Biomancy had to be removed, it would be nice if something good could have replaced it). I think most important is that everyone wanted GW to actually get creative and TRY with the codex, put fun stuff in it, and learn their lessons from all the shortcomings of 5th edition... but it's very clear it was just a copy/paste of the last codex.

And yeah, 4th edition was great simply because the level of customization of various units made it feel very organic and freeing. 5th edition removed so many of those options and instead introduced a dozen new units. It would be great if they could put in the effort to have great levels of customization AND a large unit count.

Personally I just want fun and powerful special rules. There are no special rules in the entire codex right now that make me think "powerful".

Vipoid
12-01-2014, 18:06
I don't want to sound like I'm picking sides, but those who were unhappy with it, did you have aspirations for something else? If so, what were they? What were you hoping for but didn't get? I'm quite curious.

Well, just to name one, I was hoping for something to be done with Tyranid Warriors and the Prime.

EW from synapse, or perhaps change warriors to T5 W2. It was already hard to justify the Prime over a winged Hive Tyrant - even in 5th his most productive use was to absorb S8 hits (which was rather depressing).

So, what did change? Warriors... are just as vulnerable to ID as they were before, whilst managing to be worse in combat. And then, in an edition when other armies are getting ~40pts knocked off their HQs... they decided to add 40pts to the Prime. Because, God forbid nids should get a cheap HQ choice. Oh, he isn't even allowed AP2 melee weapons now. Why not just replace his entry with a big sign reading "Take a Hive Tyrant"?

If I sound bitter it's because I am. The 5th edition Prime was my favourite unit, and whilst it wasn't great, I could at least justify including one because they were cheap. Now even that crumb has been removed.

Mandragola
12-01-2014, 18:18
I don't want to sound like I'm picking sides, but those who were unhappy with it, did you have aspirations for something else? If so, what were they? What were you hoping for but didn't get? I'm quite curious.

Well, there are a whole bunch of units that were ruined by 6th edition, one way or another. Genestealers, for example. You've got these guys now who are the same price as a marine, with the same S and T but no gun and only a 5+ save. They infiltrate but are not fast and rend, but have no grenades. They just have no way to get into assault, which is kind of a problem given how hideously vulnerable they are to small arms fire, and that they aren't fast.

Units like this are clearly non-functional. They needed either an improvement to their rules or a reduction in cost, and got neither. It's highly frustrating to see known problems not fixed.

IcedCrow
12-01-2014, 18:29
Ummm, I think "screaming" is probably a strong term for most people, and I have played the book. Rather than shouting you down, if you, yourself have also had first hand experience with the new codex, I would be interested to hear your perspective on any of the specific issues that I've raised.

Cosmic.

Screaming may be a strong term for a lot of people, sure. That comes from the dozens of threads that are posters talking about how they are shelving their army because they can't compete with it anymore, or how GW's design is so awful that they don't know how to release a balanced list, or any number of other strongly worded posts that are knee-jerk posts that have been coming out since before anyone had the book or have used the book.

I have not seen the book in action therefore I have no opinion that can be validated on it. Having read the book, I have come to the conclusion that there are no blatant power builds, and that in an environment where you are facing the two or three broken power builds that the tyranids, like the other books that don't have these OP builds, will struggle.

Other than that, the book has its good points and its quibbles, like any book. That's my perspective on it.

To most of the direct complaints being raised that don't hover around "I can't build an OP tyranid list to compete against taudar so I feel the book sucks" or "there are no powerful special rules". I feel there are of course valid complaints such as units being removed, or peoples' preferred units being nerfed. That comes with nearly every army release, and has been a complaint about a new codex or army book since the 90s. I have no objection to that type of frustration.

My objection and what I voice against are when people claim the book is horribly under powered and broken weak when the book has not yet been released (much of the conversation since last week) or has just been released (as of yesterday and today) for anyone to have had any meaningful games with them yet, or rail that the book is an abortion of poor design because it can't compete at the NOVA OPEN because it lacks OP tools to compete with other OP tools.

If one was not making those claims, then my words are not directed towards their complaint. To claim that no one is making these claims (in general making this claim) is either intentionally misleading or willfully ignorant. Hell a google search on the topic pulls out several from other message boards.

Go to BOLS right now and go through the tyranid posts in the lounge or the tyranid front page articles in the comment section - you will see several right there. That's not even mentioning the traffic facebook groups are getting on the topic right now.

Raverrn
12-01-2014, 18:30
Having read through and played (against) the codex, there's good and bad, but I think it's solid all around. There are some sticking points, sure, and it doesn't have the breadth that I'd like in a codex. (Though honestly the only codex I've been satisfied in that regard is the Eldar one. So many goddamn choices.) The balance isn't terrible, the internal balance is fantastic, new synapse seems solid and the new SitW is devastating and fluffy. Overall I think it's a B, maybe a B+.

Blink
12-01-2014, 18:31
new synapse seems solid

... What is it that you think is new with Synapse?

IcedCrow
12-01-2014, 18:41
This isn't a 24 hour new channel, people can have differing opinions and still be courteous towards one another.

Three quick things on this one quote:

1) the whole issue started when I wrote about how most of the posts I have read were about the tyranids not having OP builds to compete with other OP builds and therefore the book sucks, or that the book sucks without having played a single game with it.

There is nothing discourteous or personally attacking about what I said. It is an observation on my part that nearly every complaint is about that. That's not hyperbole... nor is it a strawman. Its an observation, and one that lacks any personal attacks. The only personal attacks that it may contain are self-created by those wanting there to be personal attacks contained within it.

2) when you start a condescending list of your version of logical fallacies, most people are going to take offense and you have crossed the line of "personal courtesy". In the world of debates, it is possible for any semi-decent argumentative person to tear apart pretty much anyone's words and drill out logical fallacies. Lawyers make their living from it.

3) There are many people with whom I have differing opinions with and with whom I can have constructive conversations with because their responses aren't loaded with condescension, martyrdom, or aggressive / passive-aggressive words. Having a differing opinion has never been a problem nor will it be a problem. If people are taking personal offense that I feel it silly that one flips out over a book they have not yet played with, that's on them. There is nothing personal about that.

And last - when a poster who has a notable searchable history for antagonizing, sarcastic, perceived trolling, or condescending posts starts talking about how we should be courteous to each other, you're going to get a response back.

I'll leave you to your world of the tyranid codex is horribly under powered and broken after it was released a day ago. Make sure you bookmark this thread in the future for when the tyranid power build emerges and people being calling you a "history revisionist" when you say "remember that time that people flipped their **** when the tyranid book was released saying it was weak?" - as the tau and eldar codices were both slammed upon their initial release.

To those that are disappointed with the tyranid release for whatever your reason - my condolences.

HereComesTomorrow
12-01-2014, 19:09
I don't want to sound like I'm picking sides, but those who were unhappy with it, did you have aspirations for something else? If so, what were they? What were you hoping for but didn't get? I'm quite curious.

I wrote a big post but it got eaten. So I'll sum up:

Reprint 4th Ed with the new models and psychic powers added. It solves nearly every problem people have with the new book.

The only issues the being lictors, pyrovores and haruspexen.

Give lictors Deathleapers snap shot only rule, pyrovores Torrent and the Haruspexes the 4th Ed carni's biomorph list and it solves these problems.

Fear Ghoul
12-01-2014, 19:20
Well, just to name one, I was hoping for something to be done with Tyranid Warriors and the Prime.

EW from synapse, or perhaps change warriors to T5 W2. It was already hard to justify the Prime over a winged Hive Tyrant - even in 5th his most productive use was to absorb S8 hits (which was rather depressing).

Eternal Warrior from Synapse was one of the worst design decisions ever made by GW, and Tyranid players should really just let it go.


Screaming may be a strong term for a lot of people, sure. That comes from the dozens of threads that are posters talking about how they are shelving their army because they can't compete with it anymore, or how GW's design is so awful that they don't know how to release a balanced list, or any number of other strongly worded posts that are knee-jerk posts that have been coming out since before anyone had the book or have used the book.

I have not seen the book in action therefore I have no opinion that can be validated on it. Having read the book, I have come to the conclusion that there are no blatant power builds, and that in an environment where you are facing the two or three broken power builds that the tyranids, like the other books that don't have these OP builds, will struggle.

Other than that, the book has its good points and its quibbles, like any book. That's my perspective on it.

I think we can safely say now that the Tyranid codex isn't very good, because a good codex (and by good I mean internally and externally balanced) doesn't have so many dud options. Pyrovores and Rippers still suck, Raveners, Tervigons, and Primes have been made worse, Warriors are still S8 magnets, Genestealers are still sub-par, etc. Furthermore the Flyrant, which was already pretty good in 6th edition, has been made even better. It's not surprising either considering that Cruddace can't internally balance anything.

Fear Ghoul
12-01-2014, 19:21
I wrote a big post but it got eaten. So I'll sum up:

Reprint 4th Ed with the new models and psychic powers added. It solves nearly every problem people have with the new book.

Yes, and creates problems for nearly everyone else.

kafrique
12-01-2014, 19:22
IcedCrow, you are one of the worst posters I have seen on a warhammer forum, and that, that's saying a lot.

Vipoid
12-01-2014, 19:26
Eternal Warrior from Synapse was one of the worst design decisions ever made by GW, and Tyranid players should really just let it go.

So, we should just accept that warriors are always going to be crap?

gLOBS
12-01-2014, 19:28
How about instead of people saying we are overreacting point some things out in the codex that proves the naysayers wrong?

DoomedDiceThrower
12-01-2014, 19:29
I mean, can you guys imagine how a bunch of people stand around tables for weeks, make careful comments, write down notes, read blogs and forums, make considerations... and come to the conclusion to make rippers 3 points more expensive. Really. Guys. Really. Imagine it. Okay, add into the equation that the pointvalue of a single unit is decided with the bigger picture of the whole codex and the synergy with other units in mind. No problem, noted. Imagine it, though. Do it. Really. This is basically what we're indirectly paying them for when buying the codex.

Ruination Drinker
12-01-2014, 19:30
IcedCrow, you are one of the worst posters I have seen on a warhammer forum, and that, that's saying a lot.

Sometimes I really wish there was an Upvote option for posts. Your's just made my day. :yes:

Nubl0
12-01-2014, 19:32
He has some valid points, but his confrontational/holier than thou post style is incredibly annoying.

gLOBS
12-01-2014, 19:34
Yea Necron Scarabs have beasts, fearless, entropic strike, have a better save, and dont kill friendlies with similar stats and are not a bargain 12 points.

Fear Ghoul
12-01-2014, 19:35
So, we should just accept that warriors are always going to be crap?

No, but the solution is not Eternal Warrior from Synapse. The solution is to remove Instant Death and replace it with a multiple wounds rule, which then means Eternal Warrior can be removed, etc...

gLOBS
12-01-2014, 19:39
So your issue is a problem with a USR so we should be hamstrung until 7th because you dont like it?

Vipoid
12-01-2014, 19:42
No, but the solution is not Eternal Warrior from Synapse. The solution is to remove Instant Death and replace it with a multiple wounds rule, which then means Eternal Warrior can be removed, etc...

That would be interesting. And, if it had happened in 6th, warriors might be worth considering. However, that isn't the case - hence why I would have liked some protection from S8 weapons. I'd rather not wait for some hypothetical 7th edition rule to come out, in order to make my 6th edition warriors not suck.

Really though, it's the fact that GW didn't even bother trying to fix their issues that really irks me.

So, either they think warriors are fine as they are (indicating that GW is located in Bizzaro World), or they just don't care.

Fear Ghoul
12-01-2014, 19:45
So your issue is a problem with a USR so we should be hamstrung until 7th because you dont like it?

The armies should not be redesigned to cover glaring flaws in the main rules. The core rules should be fixed first, and then the armies can be better designed later. Nevermind the fact that giving Tyranids immunity to Instant Death just makes yet another army ignore some aspect of the game rules, which is exactly the opposite of what 40k needs.

ihavetoomuchminis
12-01-2014, 19:50
I'm with Fear Ghoul on that one. ID is a ridiculous rule wich exacerbates unbalance.

On topic. Lazy design by GW design team? CSM codex says hi. Absurd point adjustments, rules, and unexistant internal balance by cruddace? I can't believe it. WHFB empire, Tomb kings, IG codex, tyrannid 5th ed codex.... who knows why they still let this man write stuff? They just don't care about their product anymore. They just want your money, and that's it.

HereComesTomorrow
12-01-2014, 19:58
The armies should not be redesigned to cover glaring flaws in the main rules. The core rules should be fixed first, and then the armies can be better designed later. Nevermind the fact that giving Tyranids immunity to Instant Death just makes yet another army ignore some aspect of the game rules, which is exactly the opposite of what 40k needs.

Nids already ignore the BRB psychic powers, Allies and fortifications. Ignoring one USR isn't that big of a deal for them.

Xerkics
12-01-2014, 20:00
I remember reading somewhere that a gw employee said that people forget that GW is a business that needs to sell models. And dont quote me on this but it was said that apparently some codices they release are designed to sell other codices models not their own as its not their prime money maker . So supposedly tyranids will never get good saves or guns because they are designed this way to sell more of particular space marines and tau etc . I would have thought that tyranids were popular enough to be a money maker but i guess not.

OuroborosTriumphant
12-01-2014, 20:05
Warriors could be fixed with T5. Possibly a drop to 2W and a price decrease or possibly staying a 3W and maybe a slight price increase. But Synapse doesn't need to give Eternal Warrior; and Instant Death certainly doesn't need completely reworking, just to make one unit worthwhile. You can just...make that unit worthwhile.

gLOBS
12-01-2014, 20:16
While I agree with everything you posted with the exception of as it stands they did not fix a glaring problem with this unit. The Codex vs. Main rulebook would be an entirely too long off topic set of posts.

Xerkics
12-01-2014, 20:17
I certainly didnt expect genestealers not getting assault grenades this codex as that was obvious flaw. Whats the point of having this highest initiative of Genestealers if the opponent always sits in cover and laughs at you when you charge them.

Inquisitor Kallus
12-01-2014, 20:25
I certainly didnt expect genestealers not getting assault grenades this codex as that was obvious flaw. Whats the point of having this highest initiative of Genestealers if the opponent always sits in cover and laughs at you when you charge them.

Since when have Genestealers ever had grenades in the background? For them to have grenades makes no sense. Do your opponents never move units out of cover to capture objectives, or is the board chock full of cover? Because this seems to go against what people are saying about getting shot to bits because of having little cover for their tyranids.

Fear Ghoul
12-01-2014, 20:29
Nids already ignore the BRB psychic powers, Allies and fortifications. Ignoring one USR isn't that big of a deal for them.

All of those are optional components of the army list and therefore do not constitute main rules, at least certainly not in the way movement, shooting, assault, morale, etc could be described as main rules. The comparison is flawed.


Warriors could be fixed with T5. Possibly a drop to 2W and a price decrease or possibly staying a 3W and maybe a slight price increase. But Synapse doesn't need to give Eternal Warrior; and Instant Death certainly doesn't need completely reworking, just to make one unit worthwhile. You can just...make that unit worthwhile.

If you are having to drastically alter the profile of a unit to mitigate a rule, that should be one indication that the rule in question has too large an impact on the game. And it's not just Tyranid Warriors that suffer from problems with Instant Death.

Xerkics
12-01-2014, 20:34
Since when have Genestealers ever had grenades in the background? For them to have grenades makes no sense. Do your opponents never move units out of cover to capture objectives, or is the board chock full of cover? Because this seems to go against what people are saying about getting shot to bits because of having little cover for their tyranids.


They could have easily given broodlord pheromones that slows defenders long enough for the stealers to hit. Something like that, as it is you pay through the nose for their initiative and it does nothing. Last time i checked the table should be 1/4 cover as per rules, i dunno about you but people frequently deploy objectives in or near cover for this very reason. I assume people who whine about lack of cover is tournament players as tournament tables seem to have little to no cover from what i read.

HereComesTomorrow
12-01-2014, 20:35
Warriors could be fixed with T5. Possibly a drop to 2W and a price decrease or possibly staying a 3W and maybe a slight price increase. But Synapse doesn't need to give Eternal Warrior; and Instant Death certainly doesn't need completely reworking, just to make one unit worthwhile. You can just...make that unit worthwhile.

T5 makes them harder to kill with normal guns though.
The thing about EW synapse was that it didn't make them any harder to wound, just harder kill. It inceased their survivability without making it difficult for small arms fire to kill them.

Nobody wants Warriors to be immortal pain engines, just a good support unit that can make use of their multiple wounds.

madden
12-01-2014, 20:37
And that's what the horror is for, units that charge a pinned unit don't suffer int drop hey maybe it was planned that way. Oh and nids can use fortifications, agis lines, quad guns etc as there is no restrictions in the dex. There is also plenty of scope for outflank/deepstrike it will mean your lists need to made that way.

If you havent guessed I like this dex is it tau/dar level no.
Can it work and give a good battle yes.
Have fun

DeathGlam
12-01-2014, 20:50
IcedCrow, you are one of the worst posters I have seen on a warhammer forum, and that, that's saying a lot.

I disagree with him on the Tyranid codex, in the sense i think it is bland and a poor showing from GW but he is one of the handful of regular posters on here that talks any sense rather then rants with no sense of reason or logic to back it up.

IcedCrow
12-01-2014, 21:00
I disagree with him on the Tyranid codex, in the sense i think it is bland and a poor showing from GW but he is one of the handful of regular posters on here that talks any sense rather then rants with no sense of reason or logic to back it up.

Thank you sir.

On the inspired point, we neither agree nor disagree. I have no opinion on that. Im fairly neutral in those regards. Most of my comments are directed at those saying it will under perform without having played a game with it, something i feel litters any warhammer forum or discussion thread upon many army releases.

I strongly feel this codex is balanced against the space marines. Ive already said it lacks an obvious OP build which is where i feel most of the complaints are coming from as its not balanced against op tau or eldar builds (and i agree its not)

Then theres the fact that discussing via text is difficult at best since without voice or inflection, people will apply whatever voice and attitude that they will, and often if someone disagrees strongly then it seems we apply the condescending comic book guy voice to the text and apply the "holier than thou" tag.

Ultraloth
12-01-2014, 21:00
If this codex is somewhat balanced compared to codex Space Marines, than there's nothing stopping me from having a good time with it for the next 5 years. I would have liked acces to other psychic disciplines (even if they dropped biomancy from the list of options) for the sake of variaty and genestealers and raveners could have had easier acces to striking in iniative order, but I'm looking forward to unleashing hordes of gaunts/gants backed up by MC's on my opponents.

HereComesTomorrow
12-01-2014, 21:01
And that's what the horror is for, units that charge a pinned unit don't suffer int drop hey maybe it was planned that way. Oh and nids can use fortifications, agis lines, quad guns etc as there is no restrictions in the dex. There is also plenty of scope for outflank/deepstrike it will mean your lists need to made that way.

If you havent guessed I like this dex is it tau/dar level no.
Can it work and give a good battle yes.
Have fun

Its a nice sentiment but I rarely see pinning tests failed anymore.

HereComesTomorrow
12-01-2014, 21:06
Double post

Azalthor
12-01-2014, 21:16
So far, I enjoy the new book.
Finally some long awaited conflicts have been fluffed in.

So far I see the Anti air vecto striking beast as a future must-take
And our beloved Carnifexes are fluffy and useful :)

I don't see the use of the alternative canon for the Hive Guard with such a short range though
And pity i cannot take an uber Prime with Eternal warrior for his squad

Inquisitor Shego
12-01-2014, 22:09
I just played a game against the new Tyranid Codex. 2,000 points. He took big swarms, the new harpy, and some carnifexes + 2 tervigons. I took a dark eldar force of 1 x Razorwing, 2 x Ravagers, some raider squads, venom squads, and an archon. Game ended on turn three when a man burst into my house and told me to undress at gunpoint before putting licked Rizla papers on my eyelids. Thanks Obama!

No it looks like a nice fun codex, but I do honestly GET people speaking of the lackluster side of things. There's some no brainer fixes. On the subject of Genestealers, I play Daemonettes, and believe me, if an enemy sees them coming, they will run into cover to negate my initaitve 5. They usually don't care because they'll be gunning at me until I go in after them. The frustrating thing is my models pay for that high initiative on their model (along with S, T, Rending, etc). On the flipside though, if everything has grenades, what's the point in the rule for losing initiative by assaulting into cover anyway? Maybe that's what should go, or losing your charge bonus if you assault into cover instead unless you have grenades.

Nids like CSM would be a tough act to deal with because people were so irked by their last dex. Hopes and dreams were high. Such a shame :(

DoomedDiceThrower
12-01-2014, 22:14
I just played a game against the new Tyranid Codex. 2,000 points. He took big swarms, the new harpy, and some carnifexes + 2 tervigons. I took a dark eldar force of 1 x Razorwing, 2 x Ravagers, some raider squads, venom squads, and an archon. Game ended on turn three when a man burst into my house and told me to undress at gunpoint before putting licked Rizla papers on my eyelids. Thanks Obama!

No it looks like a nice fun codex, but I do honestly GET people speaking of the lackluster side of things. There's some no brainer fixes. On the subject of Genestealers, I play Daemonettes, and believe me, if an enemy sees them coming, they will run into cover to negate my initaitve 5. They usually don't care because they'll be gunning at me until I go in after them. The frustrating thing is my models pay for that high initiative on their model (along with S, T, Rending, etc). On the flipside though, if everything has grenades, what's the point in the rule for losing initiative by assaulting into cover anyway? Maybe that's what should go, or losing your charge bonus if you assault into cover instead unless you have grenades.

Nids like CSM would be a tough act to deal with because people were so irked by their last dex. Hopes and dreams were high. Such a shame :(

I had a serious laugh there, but honestly, how did the game roughly play out? Or was that just a setup for your punchline? ^^

mpepperdine
12-01-2014, 22:15
I remember reading somewhere that a gw employee said that people forget that GW is a business that needs to sell models. And dont quote me on this but it was said that apparently some codices they release are designed to sell other codices models not their own as its not their prime money maker . So supposedly tyranids will never get good saves or guns because they are designed this way to sell more of particular space marines and tau etc . I would have thought that tyranids were popular enough to be a money maker but i guess not.

If that was the case, I would have expected a hard-counter to Wave Serpents or something in this 'dex.

Xerkics
12-01-2014, 22:18
If that was the case, I would have expected a hard-counter to Wave Serpents or something in this 'dex.
What bit are you referring to here?

Inquisitor Shego
12-01-2014, 22:24
I had a serious laugh there, but honestly, how did the game roughly play out? Or was that just a setup for your punchline? ^^

I took down the big stuff with poison weapons and lances, and out maneuvered the slow stuff. The razorwing came in and put templates down on everything. The army's short range never really once threatened my dark eldar. I lost my jetbikes from getting too cocky and I spent the entire game having squads on raiders laughing at annoyed hormagaunts scratching at the armour. Man of the match was a venomthrope that killed 10 wyches from lung cancer (ran them down). End result was a major DE win, but DE have always laughed off nids. Poison + Blasters + Mass Splinter Cannons + Speed = win

HereComesTomorrow
12-01-2014, 22:27
I took down the big stuff with poison weapons and lances, and out maneuvered the slow stuff. The razorwing came in and put templates down on everything. The army's short range never really once threatened my dark eldar. I lost my jetbikes from getting too cocky and I spent the entire game having squads on raiders laughing at annoyed hormagaunts scratching at the armour. Man of the match was a venomthrope that killed 10 wyches from lung cancer (ran them down). End result was a major DE win, but DE have always laughed off nids. Poison + Blasters + Mass Splinter Cannons + Speed = win

This is funny because when I get bored with the stupidity/blandness of the new Nid book I was planning on starting DE.

Xerkics
12-01-2014, 22:46
This is funny because when I get bored with the stupidity/blandness of the new Nid book I was planning on starting DE.

Ye for starters DE mc are t7 :p

Grndhog89
12-01-2014, 22:51
I actually like this book a lot.

I always look for Inquisitor Shego posts in threads.......and am amazed by the fact you like this book. I thought for sure you'd nerd rage hard on it. Color me surprised.

orlando davion
12-01-2014, 23:10
Since when have Genestealers ever had grenades in the background? For them to have grenades makes no sense. Do your opponents never move units out of cover to capture objectives, or is the board chock full of cover? Because this seems to go against what people are saying about getting shot to bits because of having little cover for their tyranids.

Back when I started nids in 4th edition the basic stealer was 16 pts; options acid maw 4 pts; (reroll wounds 1st round of combat; extended carapace @4 pts 4+ save; Feeder tendrils (any brood within 2 inches gets preferred enemy); flesh hooks 1 pt(counts as frag grenades for melee int & makes vertical impassable difficult); implant attack @3; (failed CC save = 2 wounds); scything talons @3 (+1 attack); scuttles @3 (scout); toxin sacs @3 (+1S).

You could also model these (hence all the heads & bits on the sprue).

So Kallus nids had the effect of frag grenades; you are quite wrong.

My stealers are modelled with extended carapace and flesh hooks; 21 points a pop by they could take anything on!

I am really thinking of selling all my nids (6,000 points worth) I am so not enthused by the new codex.

Blink
12-01-2014, 23:19
It takes a lot of effort to make the 5th edition Tyranid codex look desirable, but somehow they've done it.

Muad'Dib
12-01-2014, 23:22
I mean, can you guys imagine how a bunch of people stand around tables for weeks, make careful comments, write down notes, read blogs and forums, make considerations... and come to the conclusion to make rippers 3 points more expensive. Really. Guys. Really. Imagine it. Okay, add into the equation that the pointvalue of a single unit is decided with the bigger picture of the whole codex and the synergy with other units in mind. No problem, noted. Imagine it, though. Do it. Really. This is basically what we're indirectly paying them for when buying the codex.


On topic. Lazy design by GW design team? CSM codex says hi. Absurd point adjustments, rules, and unexistant internal balance by cruddace? I can't believe it. WHFB empire, Tomb kings, IG codex, tyrannid 5th ed codex.... who knows why they still let this man write stuff? They just don't care about their product anymore.
No, they aren't lazy or stupid or and they do care about the rules; just not in the way that's healthy for the game system.
"We are a miniature company first...so we just don't understand what's wrong with Pyrovore/Mandrakes/Thousand Sons..."...nah, doesn't make any sense. It's like saying "Hey I'm no psychologist, how could I know regularly insulting my wife makes her depressed?" You don't need special qualifications or effort in order to notice and fix some things.
Also - GW is perfectly capable of creating overpowered units on purpose (see the Flamers/Screamers WD update); so they are quite the opposite of the mythical 40k beer 'n pretzels gamers who don't care about balance.

Some units are purposefully made terrible, and the game is designed with intent for it to be imbalanced. Magic the Gathering does it with self-admission from designers; Starcraft 2 also has it blatantly...so why not GW? I think all three of these games target teenagers and (very) young adults as their to-go group.
I used to laugh about how stupid GW was with balancing, but starting with fantasy Slaanesh Daemon chariots (all three cost ~50-100 % as much as they should) I saw that they are, as crazy as it seems, putting in practically useless units on purpose.

The background in the books has been largely copy/paste lately (or since long time?)...ditto in regards to many entries. So what exactly they are doing during the 'codex writing process' ? They are certainly not balancing; and the final result is (vast majority of the time) externally and internally unbalanced codex. The only conclusion is that the codex writing is largely about fine tuning just how unbalanced, overpowered or underpowered a given book, and individual units, will be.
(if anyone wants details as to why a game would be better off imbalanced from GW's point of view, PM me, or read http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?386383-The-current-state-of-GW-and-40k&p=7018866#post7018866)

I remember reading somewhere that a gw employee said that people forget that GW is a business that needs to sell models. And dont quote me on this but it was said that apparently some codices they release are designed to sell other codices models not their own as its not their prime money maker . So supposedly tyranids will never get good saves or guns because they are designed this way to sell more of particular space marines and tau etc . I would have thought that tyranids were popular enough to be a money maker but i guess not.
Was this a theory you read from a random internet dude, and was it some 'inside' source speaking?

mongoosedog300
12-01-2014, 23:28
Some things that people seem to be complaining about that I can see easy fixes for....

Flyer defense: Hive crones vector strike at S8....that's D3+1 hits (auto-hits) at st 8 against flyers which are armour 12 at most. Tentaclids are haywire and get rerolls on misses against flyers, which is better than nothing.

No Ap2 weapons: All monsterous creatures are AP 2 anyway thanks to smash, so this is a non-issue.

On the topic of no invul saves: You've got massive monsterous creatures, the bitches are hard enough to take down as it is and take a lot of fire from heavy weapons to do it, don't be greedy.

Warriors: I can see heaps of fun ways to play these guys, put them in the middle of a few squads of 30 gaunts, which is a lot of models for not a lot of points and you've got a whle bunch of fearless shooting and warriors will have a 5+ cover save to make them more durable. They don't have eternal warrior, but neither do a lot of things like say...farseers, or autarch's or marine captains or (you see where I'm going with this). They're also a troops choice, so don't take up too much room on your FOC.

Everything else...being an eldar player and playing against nids quite often, I'm actually a little scared about things like fex's being cheaper, and having more targets on the board. It's reaally hard to pump out enough shots to deal with everything, and if you've got things like tervigons pumping out gaunts every turn, there's only going to be more stuff to shoot at, which quite frankly is scary.

Azalthor
12-01-2014, 23:46
Flyer defense: Hive crones vector strike at S8....that's D3+1 hits (auto-hits) at st 8 against flyers which are armour 12 at most. Tentaclids are haywire and get rerolls on misses against flyers, which is better than nothing.


Exactly finally some one sees the new goodness


No Ap2 weapons: All monsterous creatures are AP 2 anyway thanks to smash, so this is a non-issue.

The Exocrine has a good amount of AP2 as well

On the other hand I did not notice the price spike on the prime. I Don't intend to search for a use for this one now since
I have my eyes on the Death Leaper

This dude is immune to templates! I love lictors and I think this dude is the only way to have fun with one.
He also combos well with the other models i like, The Genestealers with Horror power.
I also intend to further abuse Deathleaper with a Mawloc.


Damn I remember the good old days when the old one eye would stand back up all the time

Blink
12-01-2014, 23:48
I used to play Necron back when their fluff was actually interesting and their codex had very little shots to put out and relied exclusively on Destroyers and Heavy Destroyers... I still found enough shots to deal with the 5th edition Tyranid Codex consistently. And there are much more options in my modern armies. The only new things I find threatening in this codex compared to the last one are the new Tyrannofex (thanks to the point reduction), and the Exocrine shots. And if I can deal with Grey Knight Dreadknights, I can find a way to deal with those.

Blink
12-01-2014, 23:53
Exactly finally some one sees the new goodness

Not really. The Hive Crone is T5 with a 4+ save... If the enemy is running an army that cares about its flyers, there are FAR too many easy ways to kill this thing... and if they somehow position poorly enough to allow the Crone to fly over one of their aircraft to get the vector strikes, that will pretty much be the ONLY thing it gets off and you spent 155+ points for that. No, when other armies have FAR cheaper and more versatile anti-air options, the Crone comes up extremely short.

Vaktathi
13-01-2014, 01:04
Some things that people seem to be complaining about that I can see easy fixes for....

Flyer defense: Hive crones vector strike at S8....that's D3+1 hits (auto-hits) at st 8 against flyers which are armour 12 at most. Tentaclids are haywire and get rerolls on misses against flyers, which is better than nothing. "better than nothing" isn't saying much to be fair :p



On the topic of no invul saves: You've got massive monsterous creatures, the bitches are hard enough to take down as it is and take a lot of fire from heavy weapons to do it, don't be greedy. By the same token, other factions can take big MC's that get invul saves.



Warriors: I can see heaps of fun ways to play these guys, put them in the middle of a few squads of 30 gaunts, which is a lot of models for not a lot of points and you've got a whle bunch of fearless shooting and warriors will have a 5+ cover save to make them more durable. They don't have eternal warrior, but neither do a lot of things like say...farseers, or autarch's or marine captains or (you see where I'm going with this). They're also a troops choice, so don't take up too much room on your FOC. If they were notably cheaper perhaps. At 30ppm before any upgrades (and with upgrades being highly necessary to get use out of them they're basically mandatory), and said upgrades being very expensive, along with little-to-no ways to get to grips with the enemy aside from footslogging straight across the board, they're hilariously bad. I want to like them, I really do. If they could be parceled out to other units ala Wolf Guard or were T5 3+sv at their current cost, they might be pretty snazzy. They're my favorite models and concepts of the entire Tyranid range, but they're far too expensive for what they do and have no reliable delivery system.

Ssilmath
13-01-2014, 01:08
and have no reliable delivery system.

A tiny voice from the back yells "Except for LOS blocking terrain!"

IcedCrow
13-01-2014, 01:16
A tiny voice from the back yells "Except for LOS blocking terrain!"

We know where that one leads lol

Ssilmath
13-01-2014, 01:25
We know where that one leads lol

Yeah, but then I would both fail in my position as the Terrain Prophet and leave Shego hanging, and I just can't let either happen.

Inquisitor Shego
13-01-2014, 01:54
I always look for Inquisitor Shego posts in threads.......and am amazed by the fact you like this book. I thought for sure you'd nerd rage hard on it. Color me surprised.

I am a FAAC player, Grndhog. I feel CSM failed at that quite glaringly. However this book, even if it is very bland in places, it captures nids quite well. Which isn't hard to do. Sea of tiny things scurrying around an archipelago of big things. Warriors are lacking, totally, and genestealers needed a drop. But still this book seems alright. I like the fluff. If anything, its not so much I love what GW did, its I'm relieved they didn't screw it up. On a side note I also loved Vanilla marines, Dark Angels, Eldar (though not the model releases), and Tau, even if Tau are overly exploitable.

I do however still loathe the alliance matrix and fortifications for being the biggest piece of 40k Apartheid ever. "Get at the back of the bus, Zoanthrope!"


Yeah, but then I would both fail in my position as the Terrain Prophet and leave Shego hanging, and I just can't let either happen.

LOL, appreciated. I can only speak from experience with LOS blocking terrain that its a double edged sword. On one side, it stops you getting shot, but on the other it slows you down with A) going around it B) going through it. It stops you being gunned at, but there's more and more guns ignoring terrain, and Nids have big creatures that can be tough to hide, or units that are so massive there's bound to be one gaunt sent outside the manufactorum to check if the coast's clear.

*bang*

It wasn't.

You're right though. Terrain goes a long way. Though expensive, GW's kits are great ways to bulk up your board too. The big gripe I can see with Nids though is "Riptides will spank us" or "Wave Serpents will spank us" or "Helldrakes will spank us". I agree with all this. But this is a problem with either:

A) You're playing with Y SO SRSLY players who don't build cool balanced lists
B) Those codices you're playing aren't balanced. In which case, making Nids uber nutjob exploitable won't fix things.

I feel like Jervis Johnson in a White Dwarf article here. I'm talking a whole lot of nothing but stating the obvious.

Vaktathi
13-01-2014, 02:04
A tiny voice from the back yells "Except for LOS blocking terrain!"Sometimes, but they're big models, and it won't always be where you need it to be, and they're still very slow, nobody runs termi's by marching them up the board to get into CC either :p

Inquisitor Shego
13-01-2014, 02:09
Sometimes, but they're big models, and it won't always be where you need it to be, and they're still very slow, nobody runs termi's by marching them up the board to get into CC either :p

Actually Vak... :)

I respect you Vak, and think you speak a lot of sense, but when my termies hit the board, all like 150 of them, they'll be going right down the middle and dying so hard I'll be taking them off with a dustpan and brush. Cause that's how this Norn Queen rolls. I won't need a carry case. I'll need a garbage bag to bring my boys to the table. 1 hour deployment :D

Ssilmath
13-01-2014, 02:14
Sometimes, but they're big models, and it won't always be where you need it to be, and they're still very slow, nobody runs termi's by marching them up the board to get into CC either :p

I understand that, I do. However, I think they'll work reasonably well as midfield objective holders, provided there is terrain to hide them behind. And there are other factors involved, which I won't get into in this thread. But you are correct, just adding some LOS terrain to the table doesn't provide a complete fix for Warriors.

Really helps the Genestealers though, as they are fast enough to take full advantage of it.

Yvain
13-01-2014, 02:52
Actually Vak... :)

I respect you Vak, and think you speak a lot of sense, but when my termies hit the board, all like 150 of them, they'll be going right down the middle and dying so hard I'll be taking them off with a dustpan and brush. Cause that's how this Norn Queen rolls. I won't need a carry case. I'll need a garbage bag to bring my boys to the table. 1 hour deployment :D

That is what my Catachan's like to hear. IDF and tanks slinging pie like its thanksgiving. :P

As a Guard play, I sympathize with long deployments. (And since all your stuff is pointy it is much worse) Seriously though, is this a viable tactic now? I feel like we use a lot of terrain and it is still a shooting gallery. Venoms plus 150 gaunts could make a difference and they is going to do some damage. But will it be enough to make back their points. What happens if I aim for the Venom and synapse and use ignore cover?

Inquisitor Shego
13-01-2014, 03:01
That is what my Catachan's like to hear. IDF and tanks slinging pie like its thanksgiving. :P

As a Guard play, I sympathize with long deployments. (And since all your stuff is pointy it is much worse) Seriously though, is this a viable tactic now? I feel like we use a lot of terrain and it is still a shooting gallery. Venoms plus 150 gaunts could make a difference and they is going to do some damage. But will it be enough to make back their points. What happens if I aim for the Venom and synapse and use ignore cover?

The Nids die horribly. Looks awesome though

Xerkics
13-01-2014, 03:25
No, they aren't lazy or stupid or and they do care about the rules; just not in the way that's healthy for the game system.
"We are a miniature company first...so we just don't understand what's wrong with Pyrovore/Mandrakes/Thousand Sons..."...nah, doesn't make any sense. It's like saying "Hey I'm no psychologist, how could I know regularly insulting my wife makes her depressed?" You don't need special qualifications or effort in order to notice and fix some things.
Also - GW is perfectly capable of creating overpowered units on purpose (see the Flamers/Screamers WD update); so they are quite the opposite of the mythical 40k beer 'n pretzels gamers who don't care about balance.

Some units are purposefully made terrible, and the game is designed with intent for it to be imbalanced. Magic the Gathering does it with self-admission from designers; Starcraft 2 also has it blatantly...so why not GW? I think all three of these games target teenagers and (very) young adults as their to-go group.
I used to laugh about how stupid GW was with balancing, but starting with fantasy Slaanesh Daemon chariots (all three cost ~50-100 % as much as they should) I saw that they are, as crazy as it seems, putting in practically useless units on purpose.

The background in the books has been largely copy/paste lately (or since long time?)...ditto in regards to many entries. So what exactly they are doing during the 'codex writing process' ? They are certainly not balancing; and the final result is (vast majority of the time) externally and internally unbalanced codex. The only conclusion is that the codex writing is largely about fine tuning just how unbalanced, overpowered or underpowered a given book, and individual units, will be.
(if anyone wants details as to why a game would be better off imbalanced from GW's point of view, PM me, or read http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?386383-The-current-state-of-GW-and-40k&p=7018866#post7018866)

Was this a theory you read from a random internet dude, and was it some 'inside' source speaking?

This was on a random blog which quoted supposedly from games day visit talking to one of the staffers there, this is going back to like 5th ed nid codex. Unfortunately I can't find the link now. This supposedly is that they make some armies sub optimal or not as good in certain things so others say spaz marines are more " fun" to play feel more powerful and they sell more models or something along those lines. So like tyranids not having ap3 guns or good arMour or genesteakers having assault grenades is not because they are stupid but because it's a conscious design decision. You ll notice none of the model ranges they completely redone like tau de necrons have bad books. If an army has a weak book that means selling their models is either not a priority or would hurt sales of opposing stuff.

Minsc
13-01-2014, 03:27
I've read trough the codex, it feels "meh". I'd say nids are different: not better or worse, but different. On my first readtrough I detected several "why on earth would you buy/upgrade that" options in the codex.
They still have massive glaring issues, and the army still feels gimmicky, but in a different way. At least Lictors aren't the only unit with "Assaultgrenades" anymore.
I'd guess that instead of depending on Biomancy, in afew months time, most nidlists will depend on MC-spam in order to stay afloat.

As a Eldar-player I pity nidplayers who wanted a fun and balanced codex.
As a CSM-player I say "welcome to the club, sit down by the fire and start writing angry letters to GW".

Blink
13-01-2014, 03:34
I'd say nids are different: not better or worse, but different.

Really? Because a lot of it was copy/pasted from the 5th edition codex. It feels quite same-y only without the good things from the 5th edition Codex.

mongoosedog300
13-01-2014, 04:01
"better than nothing" isn't saying much to be fair :p

What I meant to say is that those missles are better than not having re-rolls (which are actually pretty useful).


By the same token, other factions can take big MC's that get invul saves.
Other armies don't really have the option of having such a high rate of MC's. The nids I play against regularly run around 6ish, and that provides a kind of safety in numbers. If those bad boys were shrugging off anti-tank rounds as well....that in my opinion would be broken.


If they were notably cheaper perhaps. At 30ppm before any upgrades (and with upgrades being highly necessary to get use out of them they're basically mandatory), and said upgrades being very expensive, along with little-to-no ways to get to grips with the enemy aside from footslogging straight across the board, they're hilariously bad. I want to like them, I really do. If they could be parceled out to other units ala Wolf Guard or were T5 3+sv at their current cost, they might be pretty snazzy. They're my favorite models and concepts of the entire Tyranid range, but they're far too expensive for what they do and have no reliable delivery system.

And I don't think 30 points base is much for a model that's multi-wounds, T4 and a decent save, it'll cost maybe 150 for the full squad with upgrades? They're also troops, and don't compete as highly for another slot. Throw them in the middle of a mini-horde with a fair few MC's around and they aren't a high priority target for anyone, bam, delivery system sorted. They're not terminators, they're bigger space marines that mess with psykers and make your little guys fearless.



Not really. The Hive Crone is T5 with a 4+ save... If the enemy is running an army that cares about its flyers, there are FAR too many easy ways to kill this thing... and if they somehow position poorly enough to allow the Crone to fly over one of their aircraft to get the vector strikes, that will pretty much be the ONLY thing it gets off and you spent 155+ points for that. No, when other armies have FAR cheaper and more versatile anti-air options, the Crone comes up extremely short.

It's also got 5 wounds, and when it's swooping (who wouldnt use that?) it's a pain in the ass to hit. I think that's actually better than most flyers who can be one shotted by something (My crimson hunter get's slaughtered all the time, and costs 160 to be useful). If there bringing an army that cares about their flyers then EVERY army is going to have a problem with them, that's a fact of 6th.

I feel like every problem people are bringing up can be fixed a w bit of synergy between units. Sometimes you're going to have to sacrifice a big bug to get some unit into position, sometimes you'll need your army to work as a team rather than each thing being good on it's own. You're actually going to have to think about what you're doing instead of pointing your horde and going "kill".

hungryhungryripper
13-01-2014, 04:09
It's frankly amazing that GW has managed to convince a large portion of their own playerbase that bad rules are actually more fun.

^This is the truth.

This codex is yet another example of poorly written, noncompetitive rules. Sadly if anyone dare bring it up its 'nerd rage' or 'power gaming'. Like you all, I have invested a ton of money and time into my army and it would be nice to have rules that were creative and competitive to go with it. It doesn't seem like it would be too much to ask, but if i brought it up to GW i would get the 'we are a model company' or 'forge a narrative' response.

I will play and persevere but its a great disappointment for what could/should have been an opportunity to revive an iconic 40k army.

Blink
13-01-2014, 04:46
You're actually going to have to think about what you're doing instead of pointing your horde and going "kill".

I don't think you understand Tyranid players. This is how it's ALWAYS worked. Last edition we had to think the same thing. 4th edition when there were target priority rules, it was the same thing. You ALWAYS have to think about how the hell you're going to get into combat with a reasonably sized amount of genestealers somewhere out of cover. The problem is that these scenarios are highly situational compared to other armies which have far more versatile units. If you look at something like Death Cult Assassins compared to Genestealers, it's VERY clear Genestealers lose out in that arrangement.

Tyranid have no means of transporting their units across the map and it's extremely discouraging for many Tyranid players to be as careful as possible, sticking to cover and trying to avoid line of sight, with their 300 points worth of foot soldiers only to have them reduced to nothing in half a round of shooting from their opponent (which happens a LOT). Monsters are nice but half the time they can be ignored by all except what you WANT them to fight. Trust me, I play AGAINST Tyranid more than I play as them and I don't fear them; I feel bad for them.

NerZuhl
13-01-2014, 05:01
I was very vocal about how I believed the 5th edition codex was a failure at design. This codex is 5.25. Addressing some point costs, adding in a couple units and rules, breaking other rules, delivering nerfs in some odd places, and generally staying nearly the same. Tyranids are no longer the scuttling assault army, but essentially Xeno-Imperial Guard. Instead of tanks you have Shooty MCs, instead of guardsmen you have gants, and instead of transports you have nothing (okay so they fall short there)

Blink
13-01-2014, 05:59
Can we just get a hundred people to write them e-mails expressing disappointment and expressing demand for more and better? I'd just like to flood the first few pages of their inbox with people asking for a more diverse and creative codex.

NerZuhl
13-01-2014, 06:00
Can we just get a hundred people to write them e-mails expressing disappointment and expressing demand for more and better? I'd just like to flood the first few pages of their inbox with people asking for a more diverse and creative codex.

Because for every 100 people who write in, GW sees 100 sold codexes and a job well done.

Blink
13-01-2014, 06:04
That's... not how it works. They already know if a codex has sold. But you know what sells more? Positive reviews. People bringing their friends in to check out their awesome stuff. This does not support that.

Langdon
13-01-2014, 06:14
That's... not how it works. They already know if a codex has sold. But you know what sells more? Positive reviews. People bringing their friends in to check out their awesome stuff. This does not support that.

It is for a company as big as GW i am afraid.

100 people complain, twice that was sold in the time it takes them to bother checking their spam folder.

Do you know what sells more than positive reviews? Sales staff and their knack to sell the book to gullible teens looking to spend christmas and birthday money.

GW used to care about veterans.. they make more money from newbies in the short to long run

NerZuhl
13-01-2014, 06:25
That's... not how it works. They already know if a codex has sold. But you know what sells more? Positive reviews. People bringing their friends in to check out their awesome stuff. This does not support that.
GW follows slash and burn profits. Once you have purchased, they could care less if you rant and rave at your local shop. They seek the initial investment only, not return customers.They don't have a healthy approach to business.

GW is a model company that sells rules and excuses their poor quality product by claiming that rule writing isn't what they specialize in. And yet, people still buy their products and defend them using that very line of logic. Rules are a PRODUCT that is sold by GW in effort to earn profits. I don't understand peoples willingness to lower their standards for this product.

Blink
13-01-2014, 06:26
That's cynical and unrealistic to believe that's how they work. As evil as they seem, chances are they don't WANT to put out bad products. Don't attribute malice to what can more accurately be explained by ignorance. If they got many letters and e-mails explaining their fans distaste for what they're doing, they'd at least give it a second thought. They CLEARLY didn't get the message after 5th edition. As much as people like to complain on Warseer to each other, that doesn't let GW know there are big problems.

NerZuhl
13-01-2014, 06:42
That's cynical and unrealistic to believe that's how they work. As evil as they seem, chances are they don't WANT to put out bad products. Don't attribute malice to what can more accurately be explained by ignorance. If they got many letters and e-mails explaining their fans distaste for what they're doing, they'd at least give it a second thought. They CLEARLY didn't get the message after 5th edition. As much as people like to complain on Warseer to each other, that doesn't let GW know there are big problems.

I didn't say they were malicious. Just that they have an unhealthy approach to profits. Granted that is my opinion on their business practices. I would be curious how many people have sent in letters of complaint. I am sure there are have been letters sent in about the Daemon burning chariot, yet no FAQ has ever originated regarding it. GWs ignorance is obvious. GW wants to put out products that sell. If a bad product sells, no reason not to continue to produce similar products. After all, a product that sells can't actually be bad in the eyes of a business. If there is demand and it can be met by using fewer resources, what business wouldn't go down that route?

What I find concerning is the ability for people to hand wave away product flaws. If the Nid codex was a model, there would be quite a few bubbles and casting errors present. Sure you can patch these areas with some liquid houserules, but doesn't change the fact that you have to correct the errors made in a product you purchased. We hold their models to a high degree because they are a "model company". But that doesn't mean we should be dismissive of other products they produce that contain large flaws in them, just because that isn't what they specialize at.

I have chosen to express my distaste in GW by not contributing any dollars towards their business and supporting other games.

Edit: Just thought of a good analogy
GW is a steak house that sells baked potatoes as sides. The steaks are for the most part of high quality and great flavor. People quite often go out of their way and pay a premium price for these steaks. However, their baked potatoes are hugely inconsistent. Some steaks come with bland and boring potatoes. Others come with extra bacon bits for free. And yet others are burned to char. But customers keep coming in and ordering the potatoes with their steaks and saying "Oh I don't mind my potato burned, that isn't really what I come here for anyway" and happily pay that extra money for the potato. GW shrugs and doesn't mention anything to the cook about the inconsistent potato quality to their cooks, cause why bother when they still sell just fine and produce solid profit.

Sophet Drahas
13-01-2014, 07:03
This is funny because when I get bored with the stupidity/blandness of the new Nid book I was planning on starting DE.

Already a step ahead of you. I've gotten to the point of starting a Sisters army now to supplant my hope of owning an army that may rise from the ashes. Still, I do have two boxes of all the new Nid models en route. Between that, redirecting my career path and hockey it's going to be a busy year.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk (http://tapatalk.com/m?id=1)

Blink
13-01-2014, 07:18
It really doesn't help if people are actually buying the models. I know I'm not buying them and neither are several of my Tyranid playing friends simply because the rulebook is that unappealing. We'll play with proxies if we care to try the rulebook more than we already have.

pantsukki
13-01-2014, 07:42
And I don't think 30 points base is much for a model that's multi-wounds, T4 and a decent save, it'll cost maybe 150 for the full squad with upgrades?


How did you come up with 150? "A full squad" of Warriors would be 9, and to have at least some survive rounds of shooting, I'd say one needs at least 6. Even those 6 are more than 150 points without upgrades.

And that Endobai claimed that Warriors would be "the centerpiece" of this release..

DoomedDiceThrower
13-01-2014, 08:20
If the models by design themselves had an overwhelming pull on me, I would definitely have bought something, anything (many people call this release amazing, I'm somehow sadly immune to this perception). Seeing as I'm not totally thrilled about this incarnation, rules could have been a seller. It's absolutely secondary to me, but it's a factor. Now that the rules are what they are, I'm not spending money on anything niddy this time. Which is sad. BUT a small step in the right direction of delivering an effective message.

I mean this in humble honesty, I'm not after powerfantasies and not after showing it to the big bad corporation. But several people already stated that they think that this release is terrible and they're "only getting x and y". But that's already too much. Especially giving money for the codex is a mistake. This doesn't cause any missed out profit, which could provoke quality control and maybe better communication to the customer base.
I'm not very emotional about this, it's just my 2 cents.

Mauler
13-01-2014, 08:42
It's behind you!

Haha!! Simple and refreshing :D

GrandmasterWang
13-01-2014, 08:50
So how's the art in the book?

mongoosedog300
13-01-2014, 08:52
How did you come up with 150? "A full squad" of Warriors would be 9, and to have at least some survive rounds of shooting, I'd say one needs at least 6. Even those 6 are more than 150 points without upgrades.

And that Endobai claimed that Warriors would be "the centerpiece" of this release..

My bad, was thinking just 3 with about 20 points of options each. Reading over the rules again, I'd probably run 3 warriors (depending on points of the game I'd add more, maybe more units with multiple FOCs) with deathspitters with a unit of 30 termagants with devourers and a venomthrope. For 390 points you get 34 models who can pump out 99 shots at 18", a moving 3+ cover save on the bigger bugs (not that much bigger though, they're all infantry) and 5+ cover on the termagants and everyone's fearless. That is nothing to sneeze at my friend and would take some heavy fire power (which wouldn't be shooting at other targets) to move off an objective. Run them as a solid unit and you can then use other parts in your army that now aren't getting shot at to do some damage.

doloth
13-01-2014, 09:06
Interesting that apparently the acid spray from the tyrannofex warrants 'torrent' but not the Pyrovore?

williamsond
13-01-2014, 09:22
Being both a marine player and a nid player the last two codexs released have been polar oposites for me, the marine book was quite balanced and not super over powered with a load of fluff, the nid book wasn't, it feels like a step back from last book which in it's self was unbalanced lacking synergy between most unit and leaving huge gaps in capability. for example anyone that says the anti air issue is now solved with a few flying monsterous creatures should have a think how they would feel having their expensive flyers nose dive into the ground and lose "the snap fire to hit them" every time a guardsman with a torch shines it vaguely in their general direction. And of course once again we will see a generation of nid armies with no actual tryanid warriors in them, as warriours are about as reliable as a synapse lynchpin as chocolate is as a container for boiling water. I'm sure in a few weeks the interwebz will throw out a few nid lists thta will not be instant lose but this is not what I wanted, I spent the last few years trying to field armies that weren't just tervigone spam and this codex doesn't look like it's going to help. Don't even get me started on the removal of mycetic spores which allowed me to get troops actually close to the gun lines, it looks like its going to be a long hard foot slog to the enemy for the next few years and if we ever do get there we won't hit anything any way as we lost our rerolls.

Exorcist
13-01-2014, 09:33
I love this book so much. I was thinking about starting a nid army, and now it is released, i bought the first models and cant stop working on them (Poor Stormraven is standing unfinished on my table).

My new favorite Model is the Haruspex... dam i love that model so much! For me it is the enbodyment of all the Tyranids are.

I want to create a mostly melee based army with a lot of adrenalin glands, giant swarms of hormagaunts, carnifexes and warriors and of course HARUSPEXE'sesises...

Cant complain really, should be alot of fun shoving those monsters into my opponents face :D

Coldblood666
13-01-2014, 10:06
I think it seems to be a fun book that's not overpowered. It may take some skill to win a lot with them but at least people will be having fun playing with and against them.

nosebiter
13-01-2014, 10:13
So how's the art in the book?


I quite liked the look of the book, the art looks good.

Dkoz
13-01-2014, 11:07
I think given some time there are going to be some cool builds coming out of the codex, done right your HQ can have a 30" synapse range and then only one model in a unit needs to be in that synapse range for the whole unit to be fine or to stop it from falling back due to being out of a synapse bubble.

HereComesTomorrow
13-01-2014, 11:34
I think given some time there are going to be some cool builds coming out of the codex, done right your HQ can have a 30" synapse range and then only one model in a unit needs to be in that synapse range for the whole unit to be fine or to stop it from falling back due to being out of a synapse bubble.

The problem being that your uber-synapse creature will die to concentrated shooting on turn 1 because its fragile as hell. Suddenly you have an enormous hole in your army.

Minsc
13-01-2014, 12:05
The problem being that your uber-synapse creature will die to concentrated shooting on turn 1 because its fragile as hell. Suddenly you have an enormous hole in your army.

No one forces you to take wings and fly away.

You can always put him in Tyrantguards next to some Venomthropes. Even if they don't stand in cover (for a 2+ or 3+ coversave), that amount of T6 wounds will take some time to chip away at.

Dkoz
13-01-2014, 12:29
No one forces you to take wings and fly away.

You can always put him in Tyrantguards next to some Venomthropes. Even if they don't stand in cover (for a 2+ or 3+ coversave), that amount of T6 wounds will take some time to chip away at.

Exactly you can get a minimum 24" possible 30" synapse range with heavy duty body guards and a the very real possibility of a 2 point cover save. So your HQ should be safe for a few rounds at least.

HereComesTomorrow
13-01-2014, 12:54
But then you have a lot of points (400pts minimum for a Norn Crown tyrant, three guard and a Venomthrope all naked) just sitting there doing nothing.

Not to mention, the Venomthrope take up an Elite slot by itself.

ORicK
13-01-2014, 13:35
What i find funny is that people keep stating "warriors where not fixed", while i always field between 15 and 20 and had a lot of fun beating and shooting about everything in a big bug list with "the usual suspects".
There was one problem, yes, T4 means instant kill by S8, if that problem is still there, that's a pity, but they were not horrible, at least not in a tactical and versatile list.

But I very much wonder what the details in the codex will be regarding the warriors, them being my favourite unit...

Minsc
13-01-2014, 13:51
But then you have a lot of points (400pts minimum for a Norn Crown tyrant, three guard and a Venomthrope all naked) just sitting there doing nothing.

So move them towards your opponent and prepare for combat? It's hard to win if you let your melee-units stand still in your deployment the whole game. ;)

daveNYC
13-01-2014, 13:58
Tyranids lost:
1) Mycetic Spores (a delivery option!)
2) The Parasite
3) The Doom.
4) BRB psyker powers.

In return, they got a massive upgrade to their AA because the FAQ that prevented them from manning quad guns is not relevant to the current codex, what with it being the FAQ for the previous codex.

Just on that basis, I'm calling it a bad codex. And I'm pretty sure that opinion is going to improve upon further reading this week. It just seems too much of the same issues from the previous book, just with some of the problem units being swapped around.

Vipoid
13-01-2014, 13:59
What i find funny is that people keep stating "warriors where not fixed", while i always field between 15 and 20 and had a lot of fun beating and shooting about everything in a big bug list with "the usual suspects".

How exactly do you use all those warriors?


There was one problem, yes, T4 means instant kill by S8, if that problem is still there, that's a pity, but they were not horrible, at least not in a tactical and versatile list.

T4 was merely the warriors biggest problem - it was by no means the only one.

Other problems include general susceptibility to small-arms fire (one warrior costs more than 2 marines, but is no more resilient), poor range on their guns, no anti-vehicle guns available, mediocre shooting even when upgraded, lack of fleet, mediocre combat potential, very expensive to actually give them good close combat weapons, and dubious transport options.

naloth
13-01-2014, 14:03
What i find funny is that people keep stating "warriors where not fixed", while i always field between 15 and 20 and had a lot of fun beating and shooting about everything in a big bug list with "the usual suspects".
There was one problem, yes, T4 means instant kill by S8, if that problem is still there, that's a pity, but they were not horrible, at least not in a tactical and versatile list.
Context would help, but in a meta favors anti-tank or is rather competitive and around 1500-2k points, that's quite an investment for anti-infantry that's easily wiped out. Having tried Warriors, they only survived well by abusing LOS on a T5 Prime (yea, he ran point) which also gave them BS4 for their weaponry (usually deathspitters for volume and decent S). Of course, one of the local players favored the Raider army of doom (12+ DE vehicles - basically a mechanized force) while another did the IG tank division, so while they were good against all comers any army we ran needed to be prepared for lots of vehicles, speed, units that couldn't be easily assaulted, and high S weaponry fire.

I would have very much liked them to get bumped to T5 (isn't that was Ogryns are anyway?) even if they dropped back to 2W or increased a bit for T5 3W.

Of course, I remember all the way back to the Rogue Trader days and built my first real 'nid army off the of the WD suppliment that had the original Screamer-Killers and Hunter-Slayers. At one time Screamers were virtually impossible to kill... You knocked them down (usually without injury, just so they had to stand up), but you couldn't hardly kill them.

Lord Blood the Hungry
13-01-2014, 14:11
I generally try to look on the bright side of things.
this thread has been pretty negative so far, so I will focus on the positives.

seems to be a lot of bad feeling about this release. but people seem to be looking at things in isolation. REMEMBER the watchword of 6th edition is "SYNERGY" (the eldar and tau are great if units work together to boost each other).
we need to look for combinations, think I've spotted a few.

maybe some of you have missed the awesome changes:

first off; big points break throughout: my old 2000pt army now costs 1650pts!!
yes, annoying for new players cos you need more models to have an army, but anyone who has a force gets to add loads more stuff.
lots of people are complaining that the points drop has been cancelled by the biomorph upgrades going up in price. but, why are you upgrading your meat shield? its a meat shield!!

MONSTERS

has anyone else noticed the subtle stat increase?
all our big monsters got boosted to initiative 2. so now they strike before unwieldy weapons, should make them a damn sight more survivable in melee.

regeneration is much more likely to happen, yes we lost the chance to be hanging on "at death's door" then suddenly leap up to full strength, but it means that things will last longer and its much less likely to be utterly useless.

they can have fleet with a simple biomorph upgrade. (nice combo with the psychic powers)

carnifex is now the king of charging. and can ruin buildings and vehicles before anything gets to strike.
if only it could charge further...oh wait...!
(if "living battering ram" had strikedown and concussive...then something could have benefited from those nigh on useless rules)

new monsters are great. the threat of them getting to do their thing should panic people into shooting them.
nothing scares marine players more than a mega plasma cannon that doesn't overheat! except ooodles of AP2 melee attacks!

flying monsters
they are not fliers this means that they don't have to stay in reserve. i.e. they can do their thing on turn 1.
means a crone can deploy then glide forward and blast the quad gun to bits so it is free to own the skies from turn 2.

why take a harpy
because it gives you access this army's new super unit. (more later)

Thorax swarm
super flamer now available to more monsters, does not stop you taking anything else (like it used to) and, good gosh, its awesome!
ZOMG! tervigon can now take 2 guns and make use of its ability to fire both.
really tough choice though;
super poison, for dealing with anything with wounds
shred and rending, for dealing with anything with and armour save
haywire, for killing vehicles (LOL @ wall of death vs charging walkers)

think it'll be important to take enough monsters to draw the anti tank fire away from your warriors or vice versa. ;)

venomthrope
shrouded is a massive boost from the 5+ cover it used to grant, means the cloud now stacks with everything else.
SYNERGY : it is small enough to hide out of LOS behind a monster (or brood of monsters) whilst shrouding a large portion of your army.
running a swarm of little beasties in front of said monster brood means they can use shrouded. the monster claims cover for the beasties + shrouded from the spore cloud (for 3+ cover), and the venomthrope can't be targetted cos it can't be seen.
who needs terrain?
we do so that everything has 2+ cover ;)

Lord Blood the Hungry
13-01-2014, 15:02
people were looking to the nids as the big combat counter to the "super shooty" armies.
I think they can be...if they are played correctly.

there are several massive counters to enemy shooting

psychic powers

the new powers are very similar to the old ones, but subtle changes make them vastly better:

the other ones are pretty obvious but these two go supercharged:

the horror.
now double range and -2 to the pinning check. so even marines are testing on LD7 (just think of the poor tau!).
if they are pinned they can only fire snap shots. (NB; Riptides are NOT fearless so are very vulnerable to this)
broodlords automatically get this power and can infiltrate so will be in range to use it on turn 1!
hmmm... just how much of the enemy army can I pin before it gets to shoot?

paroxysm
now malediction, double range -D3 WS and BS (no minimum)
this is huge!!
REMEMBER;
BS 0 units cannot fire guns at all. = no overwatch and no shooting of any kind.
WS 0 units cannot attack with melee weapons and are automatically hit by melee attacks.
so, hypothetically, using this on a BS3 enemy could completely cancel their shooting. I think that might come in handy!

on to the new super unit;

Spore mines
:wtf: :evilgrin:
seriously, after years of being useless, these things are now amazing!
think of them as "the 40K version of goblin fanatics"
for each blast marker that misses you place D3 spore mines anywhere under the marker, they are all individual units.
they can move 3", run and charge (but halve the dice roll) and explode at initiative 10 in the fight phase.
as they are not arriving from reserve or disembarking, they can charge on the turn they are fired! = 2 chances to hit.
they are actually better if you miss because 1 large blast becomes D3 mines.
the fact they can charge means they can get into base contact so can hit more enemies with the blast than they used to be able to.
but this not the big bonus of being able to charge.
the main bonus is that they are effectively free and can absorb overwatch. if you fire at them then you've wasted your overwatch, if you don't fire and it makes it into contact you've lost your overwatch anyway and will get horribly blown to bits.
so if all the spore mines charge first you could effectively cancel your opponent's overwatch. leaving the rest of your army to charge unmolested.
if they scatter wildly off target, then they are yet another intervening unit to provide cover for the rest of your army.
as they are all individual units they have to be targeted individually if the enemy wants to shoot them (a whole unit's fire power to drop a single spore mine?!).

how do you get spore mines?
biovore or Harpy
the biovore can fire barrage (wildly inaccurate is actually beneficial in this situation) 3 biovores could place up to 9 spore mines!
the harpy can drop them in the movement phase as a bomb (so they can move immediately and charge in the following assault phase)

daveNYC
13-01-2014, 15:16
Rather strange that the 'super' status for your super unit depends on rooting for failure (missing the target).

Ruination Drinker
13-01-2014, 15:49
Great... Doing random movement for +9 models every turn is exactly the kind engaging strategic gameplay I've always wanted.

NerZuhl
13-01-2014, 15:52
I generally try to look on the bright side of things.
this thread has been pretty negative so far, so I will focus on the positives.
This is a good thing to do, but I am going to have to rain on some of you parade (not all of it though)


seems to be a lot of bad feeling about this release. but people seem to be looking at things in isolation. REMEMBER the watchword of 6th edition is "SYNERGY" (the eldar and tau are great if units work together to boost each other).
we need to look for combinations, think I've spotted a few.
This was the go to reasoning behind the hidden power in the 5th edition codex as well. This can be taken as insulting when you indicate players don't know the "secret" to winning with an army. So tread lightly.


maybe some of you have missed the awesome changes:

first off; big points break throughout: my old 2000pt army now costs 1650pts!!
yes, annoying for new players cos you need more models to have an army, but anyone who has a force gets to add loads more stuff.
lots of people are complaining that the points drop has been cancelled by the biomorph upgrades going up in price. but, why are you upgrading your meat shield? its a meat shield!!

Remember, some people like using those cool bits on the sprue. The points reduction is a good thing, but hidden additional costs aren't.


MONSTERS

has anyone else noticed the subtle stat increase?
all our big monsters got boosted to initiative 2. so now they strike before unwieldy weapons, should make them a damn sight more survivable in melee.

regeneration is much more likely to happen, yes we lost the chance to be hanging on "at death's door" then suddenly leap up to full strength, but it means that things will last longer and its much less likely to be utterly useless.

they can have fleet with a simple biomorph upgrade. (nice combo with the psychic powers)

carnifex is now the king of charging. and can ruin buildings and vehicles before anything gets to strike.
if only it could charge further...oh wait...!
(if "living battering ram" had strikedown and concussive...then something could have benefited from those nigh on useless rules)

[/quote]
These are some improvements and steps in the right direction. Regeneration is still over priced for the effect, but it is better than it was. So from utter garbage to just not so good now. Shame though that they used to be initiative 4 on the charge during 5th edition. But I suppose base initiative 2 is better, especially with JAW like effects around. Shame crushing claws are still horrid and you don't get rerolls anymore.


new monsters are great. the threat of them getting to do their thing should panic people into shooting them.
nothing scares marine players more than a mega plasma cannon that doesn't overheat! except ooodles of AP2 melee attacks!

Killing marines isn't something special anymore. It is a base of effectiveness. Though I will say the new monsters are decent, and should sell well.


flying monsters
they are not fliers this means that they don't have to stay in reserve. i.e. they can do their thing on turn 1.
means a crone can deploy then glide forward and blast the quad gun to bits so it is free to own the skies from turn 2.

Yes, start on the table. If they go first, kiss your flier goodbye. With weak armor and lower toughness, if it doesn't have the protection of snap shots, it is going to get shot up very quickly. And dont' say "hide it", cause those models are pretty awkward to hide.


why take a harpy
because it gives you access this army's new super unit. (more later)

Why take a harpy when you can just buy the spore mines with out the weak FMC. At least the crone can do some AA, harpies bring more anti-infantry to a solidly anti-infantry army.


Thorax swarm
super flamer now available to more monsters, does not stop you taking anything else (like it used to) and, good gosh, its awesome!
ZOMG! tervigon can now take 2 guns and make use of its ability to fire both.
really tough choice though;
super poison, for dealing with anything with wounds
shred and rending, for dealing with anything with and armour save
haywire, for killing vehicles (LOL @ wall of death vs charging walkers)

think it'll be important to take enough monsters to draw the anti tank fire away from your warriors or vice versa. ;)

You do realize the Thorax swarms are no longer free additional guns. They count towards the number of guns fired now. It is nice to have the option to take them though, i will give you that. Oh, walkers are crap this edition. If someone is charging your MC with a walker, reach out and shake their hand in thanks. A 6" speed flamer is not that handy. You are looking at the damage, but failing to think about how do you actually deliver it.


venomthrope
shrouded is a massive boost from the 5+ cover it used to grant, means the cloud now stacks with everything else.
SYNERGY : it is small enough to hide out of LOS behind a monster (or brood of monsters) whilst shrouding a large portion of your army.
running a swarm of little beasties in front of said monster brood means they can use shrouded. the monster claims cover for the beasties + shrouded from the spore cloud (for 3+ cover), and the venomthrope can't be targetted cos it can't be seen.
who needs terrain?
we do so that everything has 2+ cover ;)
Hiding a venomthrope completely from LOS with MC will take a considerable number of them to do it. Oh and it sure is a shame that his is the edition of "ignore cover" weapons. Tau and Eldar sport a metric ton of these types. And Imperial guard still gonna make you cry by dropping a pie plate on your venomthrope. They did improve the venomthrope, but you are exaggerating them a bit here.

people were looking to the nids as the big combat counter to the "super shooty" armies.
I think they can be...if they are played correctly.
Yep, thanks for saying that those of us who don't see Nids as the counter shooty army as being ignorant to the correct way of playing them. Nids have not gained any ground in Close Combat since the last codex. I would argue that they are more shooting oriented, which is helpful in shooting edition though. But CC kings, Tyranids are not.


there are several massive counters to enemy shooting

I am assuming everything listed below are these massive anti-shooting abilities


psychic powers
the new powers are very similar to the old ones, but subtle changes make them vastly better:
the other ones are pretty obvious but these two go supercharged:
the horror.
now double range and -2 to the pinning check. so even marines are testing on LD7 (just think of the poor tau!).
if they are pinned they can only fire snap shots. (NB; Riptides are NOT fearless so are very vulnerable to this)
broodlords automatically get this power and can infiltrate so will be in range to use it on turn 1!
hmmm... just how much of the enemy army can I pin before it gets to shoot?

Yes, The horror functions now quite well. And is indeed a good tool to be used.


paroxysm
now malediction, double range -D3 WS and BS (no minimum)
this is huge!!
REMEMBER;
BS 0 units cannot fire guns at all. = no overwatch and no shooting of any kind.
WS 0 units cannot attack with melee weapons and are automatically hit by melee attacks.
so, hypothetically, using this on a BS3 enemy could completely cancel their shooting. I think that might come in handy!

Please read about maledictions in the rule book and learn how they actually function. This is blatantly wrong and wishful thinking.


on to the new super unit;

Spore mines
:wtf: :evilgrin:
seriously, after years of being useless, these things are now amazing!
think of them as "the 40K version of goblin fanatics"
for each blast marker that misses you place D3 spore mines anywhere under the marker, they are all individual units.
they can move 3", run and charge (but halve the dice roll) and explode at initiative 10 in the fight phase.
as they are not arriving from reserve or disembarking, they can charge on the turn they are fired! = 2 chances to hit.
they are actually better if you miss because 1 large blast becomes D3 mines.
the fact they can charge means they can get into base contact so can hit more enemies with the blast than they used to be able to.
but this not the big bonus of being able to charge.
the main bonus is that they are effectively free and can absorb overwatch. if you fire at them then you've wasted your overwatch, if you don't fire and it makes it into contact you've lost your overwatch anyway and will get horribly blown to bits.
so if all the spore mines charge first you could effectively cancel your opponent's overwatch. leaving the rest of your army to charge unmolested.
if they scatter wildly off target, then they are yet another intervening unit to provide cover for the rest of your army.
as they are all individual units they have to be targeted individually if the enemy wants to shoot them (a whole unit's fire power to drop a single spore mine?!).

how do you get spore mines?
biovore or Harpy
the biovore can fire barrage (wildly inaccurate is actually beneficial in this situation) 3 biovores could place up to 9 spore mines!
the harpy can drop them in the movement phase as a bomb (so they can move immediately and charge in the following assault phase)
So....you have to fail to hit to get the unit? You are spending significant points to generate FEWER points worth of models. JUST BUY THE DAMN MINES. Spore mines got a big buff, and I am very happy for this. But you are looking at this with rose tinted glasses that are 2 inches thick.

What you should be saying is that Biovores got even stronger than they did last edition. And the harpy has an amusing tactic, but still isn't worth the points. Better off just using the FA slot for the mines.

You listed only 1 thing that could possibly counter shooting......so where is the secret that us ignorant players aren't seeing? Cause nids aren't an assault counter to shooting, they are a shooting army that can assault.

malisteen
13-01-2014, 15:55
spore mines aren't random movement anymore.

Nubl0
13-01-2014, 15:57
If you buy the mines don't they take up an fa slot? Also the biovores can barrage snipe and will produce plenty of mines throughout the game. My fa I would rather have gargoyles,crones or raveners than spore mines.

Lord Blood the Hungry
13-01-2014, 16:09
sadly I'm struggling with lictors, pyrovores and rippers. I want them to be great...but they just aren't!

caution; this post contains wish-listing and suggested solutions not official rules.

lictors
actually playable? maybe. (i hope so cos the models are still awesome!)
now they can deploy and infiltrate, their pheremone trail might be useful for pinpoint mawloc strikes.
stealth will stack with the venomthrope's shrouded if you want them to skulk around with the rest of the swarm.

deathleaper got the special rules that would have made lictors brilliant, why didn't the rest of them get it too?
if all lictors could only be targeted with snap shots they'd be the great and terrifying predators they should be.
as assassin beasts they should all have precision strike and be able to challenge.

or alternatively they could have kept the lictor's old deployment rule and changed flesh hooks. a very short ranged gun is pretty useless unless it does something special.
e.g. my suggestion would be:
flesh hooks; a model with flesh hooks counts as having assault grenades when it charges.
flesh hooks may be fired in the shooting phase with the following profile. range 6" S- AP- assault 2 snare
snare: a weapon with snare hits on a 4+, scoring precision strikes on a 6, any model hit is dragged into base contact with the firer and is now engaged in melee. in the assault phase neither unit counts as charging.

this would let your lictor turn up and have a chance to immediately engage enemies in melee.
it would also give it 2 options in the assault phase.
charge from further out with grenades,
or get in really close and just skip the charge sub phase (and overwatch) all together, moving straight to the fight phase. it'd also have a chance to avoid retaliation strikes, the enemy can only pile in 3" so if it killed the model it snared noone would be in range to strike back until the end of combat pile in.
It'd make lictors really scary.

pyrovore
why is it in the codex?
it was an unnecessary addition in the last codex, is practically useless, and it hasn't been changed.
could fix it with something like torrent and soulblaze or deep strike (all 3?)

rippers
yet again. too many points and just useless.
swarm rule is just rubbish. if they fix it then maybe swarms will be playable.

swarm needs to be changed to something like:
swarms have Swamp, mindless, tiny and vulnerable to blasts:
Swamp; a swarm consists of hundreds of little creatures that just swamp the enemy.
a swarm that outnumbers its enemy (base for base) rerolls failed to hit and to wound rolls when making melee attacks.
vulnerable to blasts: swarms are very difficult to combat on an individual level, its best to blow them to bits or burn vast swathes of them;
swarm bases are immune to instant death except from blast or template weapons.
mindless: a swarm is fearless and can never be a scoring unit.
tiny a swarm always increases its cover save by 1.

then they'd be playable and do what they are supposed to

however, that's just wish-listing (but now its written down someone might take notice)

Lord Blood the Hungry
13-01-2014, 16:11
Great... Doing random movement for +9 models every turn is exactly the kind engaging strategic gameplay I've always wanted.

its not random! they move 3" and can run and charge.

NerZuhl said
Please read about maledictions in the rule book and learn how they actually function. This is blatantly wrong and wishful thinking.

D'oh, they bottom out at 1, don't they?
thought it seemed too good! cheers for setting me straight.
its still another way to weaken enemy shooting and combat though.


What you should be saying is that Biovores got even stronger than they did last edition. And the harpy has an amusing tactic, but still isn't worth the points. Better off just using the FA slot for the mines.


its yet another option. the main point is that the mines are good if they hit or miss and have added advantages.
and the harpy can target 2 separate units with its shooting. and distract the enemy.


You listed only 1 thing that could possibly counter shooting......so where is the secret that us ignorant players aren't seeing? Cause nids aren't an assault counter to shooting, they are a shooting army that can assault.

2 psychic powers and unit are just one thing? maybe you need to learn to count.
oh no, its my bad, 1+1+1 =1 :p

So its OK to have an entire thread of negative rants, but when someone tries to look on the positive side they are "being rude and offensive and must be shot down?" :wtf:
I think you have a problem with your general outlook and social skills.

calm down. stop getting so worked up and offended by things people haven't said.

try reading posts as though they are points made in a relaxed friendly conversation.
and try to be relaxed and friendly with your response

this is blank text, the reader invents and attaches the tone and emotions. if you think I am shouting at you or insulting you it is because you think you need shouting at and insulting.
if you assume everyone is screaming in your face an trying to stab you, of course you will be offended, upset, on the defensive and are likely to lash out.
its not a good way to be.

I didn't say "everyone is an idiot".
I said I was trying to look at the positives, because a lot of people are being extremely negative, (a large proportion of posters on this thread have admitted to not actually having seen the book, yet they are still blasting it based on hearsay!!).

the implication of the post was "Look for combinations that can work well on the table, rather than looking for numbers in a book". I thought I'd spotted a couple, thought one was better than it is, but I seem to be the only one even trying to find them.

NerZuhl, I haven't seen you post anything positive or helpful, and I don't think you are bright enough to do so.
prove me wrong :D

v0iddrgn
13-01-2014, 16:19
I personally like the Tyranid Warriors as a solid Troops choice. Last edition everyone complained how they were too slow, didn't have access to assault grenades, and needed to be impervious to ID. So, this time around they got access to 2/3 of those things we asked for and people still write them off as a sub-par unit. Minus paying through the nose for a Tervigon they are the toughest Troop choice we have. Ya Boneswords got nerfed but we all saw that coming. 2+ armor isn't as big of a deal with Plasma weapons and Ion Accelerator's abound, besides, weight of attacks do a decent job of dispatching Termies and the like. The truth is, if all players want their multi-wound models to be immune to ID then why even have the rule in the first place? Maybe that's it, maybe everyone is basically upset that the Instant Death rule exists!