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Balerion
11-01-2014, 09:51
Page 7, re: psykers pysking under the influence of the Shadow in the Warp:

"Should a psyker attempt to use his otherworldly abilities, the cerebral cacophony worsens even further; the psychic sound of a billion alien thoughts scratch at his mind, and unless he is particularly strong-willed he will be pitched into an insanity where he will repeatedly utter phrases in a tongue too alien to properly pronounce."

Also, Harpies and Crones can fly in space. They use their wings. To fly, in space.

And sometimes all four greater daemons bust out of a portal together to have an awesome, friendly time. It's called a Quadrifold Abominatum, and it rules.

Terrible Tyranid Codex Fluff Thread, initiate!

Fear Ghoul
11-01-2014, 10:08
Page 7, re: psykers pysking under the influence of the Shadow in the Warp:

"Should a psyker attempt to use his otherworldly abilities, the cerebral cacophony worsens even further; the psychic sound of a billion alien thoughts scratch at his mind, and unless he is particularly strong-willed he will be pitched into an insanity where he will repeatedly utter phrases in a tongue too alien to properly pronounce."

Isn't this already existing background? How does Tigurius communicate with the Hive Mind without language?


Also, Harpies and Crones can fly in space. They use their wings. To fly, in space.

Sounds quite silly.


And sometimes all four greater daemons bust out of a portal together to have an awesome, friendly time. It's called a Quadrifold Abominatum, and it rules.

Apart from the name, what's so unusual about this? We already know that the Chaos Gods will put aside their differences every once in a while and fight together.

williamsond
11-01-2014, 10:27
Also, Harpies and Crones can fly in space. They use their wings. To fly, in space.

may be they propel them selves forward with farts

Born Again
11-01-2014, 11:04
Yeah, I don't think the language thing is particularly new. Of course, distinct words and such have never been described, but there's clearly a thought process going on at the higher levels of the Hive Mind, and thought requires some kind of language think in, or an equivalent of it. It's like that old question: what language to deaf people think in?

The Harpy & Crone flying in space is, admittedly, downright terrible but given what we've seen previously with cases like the BA/ Necron alliance, you'll forgive me if I don't make a final judgement until seeing the actual passage printed in a codex in front of me.

AndrewGPaul
11-01-2014, 11:09
Why is it silly that Harpies and Crones can manoeuvre in space? You've clearly got no problems with the idea that the rest of the hive fleet can do so.

LexxBomb
11-01-2014, 11:41
except that the large Biofleet travels via gravity (or at least used to) the smaller Harpies and Crones don't have a mass large enough. Solar Sails maybe buts an Eldar thing.

AndrewGPaul
11-01-2014, 12:20
" the smaller Harpies and Crones don't have a mass large enough"

Says who? :) More to the point, where did it say that the big ships "travels via gravity"? There's nothing in BFG about it. Or the last Codex, unless I've missed something. The Narvhal is used for interstellar travel in flat spacetime, not near planets and stars. All it says about that is "a Tyranid fleet must rely on more conventional propulsion in the final approach..."

By the way, while looking for something which might explain how Tyranid ships move in space, I found ""Should the psyker attempt to use his otherworldly abilities, the cerebral cacophony worsens even further, pitching all but the strongest into incurable insanity where the psyker will repeatedly chant phrases in a tongue too alien to properly pronounce." on page 7 of the 5th edition Codex. It's not even a new thing for the OP to get upset about. :P

Lord Damocles
11-01-2014, 12:32
It's not even a new thing for the OP to get upset about. :P
Old fluff is the worst new thing evar! :mad:




Happens every time.

Retrospectus
11-01-2014, 12:57
well the harpies need some form of propellant to fly in space, likely some kind of gas expulsion. that likely being the case their wings would be used to redirect the streams allowing them to maneuver. simple reason for using wings in space

Born Again
11-01-2014, 12:59
Why is it silly that Harpies and Crones can manoeuvre in space? You've clearly got no problems with the idea that the rest of the hive fleet can do so.

Being that the Hive Ships spend their entire lives in space, one assumes that they have evolved a means to move around up there, whether it be giant gas bladders or whatever (yes, we're talking alien space farts here :p). The Harpy & Crone are far too small to have a bladder big enough to allow anything but very short range flights, or with extremely limited maneuvering. They could conceivably make the transition from orbit to surface (if they didn't burn up in the planet's atmosphere), or take out enemy fighters getting too close to the Hive ship, but anything beyond that is unlikely. Even then, they're need some pretty impressive lung capacity, as alien as Tyranids are I'm not aware of any reason we've been given to assume they still need to breathe something. As for using wings as propulsion in space, I hope I don't have to explain why that is silly.

I'm not entirely opposed to the idea as long as it has some thought put in to it, the brief outline I've just given would be fine for me and as I said, for all I know that could be in the book. The internet similarly turned 'Blood Angels and Necrons stop fighting each other so Tyranids don't kill them both' in to 'Matt Ward made BA and Newcrons BFFs! Raaaaaage', so I'm not making any calls until I see the actual passage from the codex.


" the smaller Harpies and Crones don't have a mass large enough"

Says who? :) More to the point, where did it say that the big ships "travels via gravity"? There's nothing in BFG about it. Or the last Codex, unless I've missed something. The Narvhal is used for interstellar travel in flat spacetime, not near planets and stars. All it says about that is "a Tyranid fleet must rely on more conventional propulsion in the final approach..."

By the way, while looking for something which might explain how Tyranid ships move in space, I found ""Should the psyker attempt to use his otherworldly abilities, the cerebral cacophony worsens even further, pitching all but the strongest into incurable insanity where the psyker will repeatedly chant phrases in a tongue too alien to properly pronounce." on page 7 of the 5th edition Codex. It's not even a new thing for the OP to get upset about. :P

Lol, nice find.

Balerion
11-01-2014, 15:04
" the smaller Harpies and Crones don't have a mass large enough"

Says who? :) More to the point, where did it say that the big ships "travels via gravity"? There's nothing in BFG about it. Or the last Codex, unless I've missed something. The Narvhal is used for interstellar travel in flat spacetime, not near planets and stars. All it says about that is "a Tyranid fleet must rely on more conventional propulsion in the final approach..."

By the way, while looking for something which might explain how Tyranid ships move in space, I found ""Should the psyker attempt to use his otherworldly abilities, the cerebral cacophony worsens even further, pitching all but the strongest into incurable insanity where the psyker will repeatedly chant phrases in a tongue too alien to properly pronounce." on page 7 of the 5th edition Codex. It's not even a new thing for the OP to get upset about. :P
That is actually pretty funny. I guess I just haven't read the 5th edition fluff with a critical eye for several years.

Incidentally, Narvhals don't appear anywhere in this book. I don't suppose that constitutes a retcon, but it's interesting.

Camman1984
11-01-2014, 15:08
Tongue to alien to pronounce makes me think it isnt a language in the way we perceive it but that language and tongue are just crude interpretations of communication that the lay reader could be expected to understand. It also wouldnt sound as grim dark if they just said the psykers were driven mad and made loads of clicks and hisses like bugs.

Azulthar
11-01-2014, 15:34
The codex says Hive Crones glide alongside bioships in space to protect them from enemy shuttles and bombers and such.

No flapping of wings is outright stated, there's plenty of room for us to assume something reasonable :)

Loginis
11-01-2014, 15:36
Maybe harpies and crones fly in the gigantic spore cloud what surrounds most bioships. In BFG they use that instead of void shields and turrets. The latter effect could represents these new bugs now.

AndrewGPaul
11-01-2014, 15:54
Tongue to alien to pronounce makes me think it isnt a language in the way we perceive it but that language and tongue are just crude interpretations of communication that the lay reader could be expected to understand. It also wouldnt sound as grim dark if they just said the psykers were driven mad and made loads of clicks and hisses like bugs.

To me, it's as if they're making noises that are the closes a human (Ork, Eldar ...) larynx can get to the thoughts of the Hive Mind. The psychic equivalent of the sounds you get from a dial-up modem or when someone tries to send a fax to a telephone. It also refers back nicely to the short story in WD 130 (in the run-up to the release of Advanced Space Crusade and the revamping of the Tyranids into what we'd recognise today) in which Inquisitor Kryptman gets a psyker to read the "mind" of a dormant deathspitter picked up from a drifting wreck. The deathspitter starts taking over the psyker's mind, who starts babbling; "We h-hunted the meat-things, to lay the young-eggs within their flesh. Again and again we send them forth, pleasure bursting through us mixed with the pain as we send the little eaters out their way. Fire them out to bore through the meat."

As for spacegoing Hive Crones, it says "Before reaching a target planet, Hive Crones also protect bio-ships in their journeys through extragalactic space against attacks from enemy assault shuttles and bomber craft; in silence, a hive fleet’s Crones glide through the inky darkness, ripping enemy vessels open to the cold vacuum." That's it. No explanation of their method of locomotion given (or needed, frankly). Other than the possible misuse of "extragalactic", I don't see anything to nitpick about. I was assuming they fold the wings away in space and use an alternate method of propulsion. Could be a biological rocket engine, could be telekinesis.

Horus38
11-01-2014, 16:24
Terrible Tyranid Codex Fluff Thread, initiate!

I feel like you're grasping at straws here bub. Having read the book I found it quite good overall and really enjoyed the new Daemonic host on Tyranid battle.

madprophet
11-01-2014, 16:53
Page 7, re: psykers pysking under the influence of the Shadow in the Warp:

"Should a psyker attempt to use his otherworldly abilities, the cerebral cacophony worsens even further; the psychic sound of a billion alien thoughts scratch at his mind, and unless he is particularly strong-willed he will be pitched into an insanity where he will repeatedly utter phrases in a tongue too alien to properly pronounce."
If you want to get technical, the psyker is using "language" - not the 'Nids. He's been driven mad by the alien nature of the hive mind. Very Lovecraftian.


Also, Harpies and Crones can fly in space. They use their wings. To fly, in space.
Byahkhee anyone...


And sometimes all four greater daemons bust out of a portal together to have an awesome, friendly time. It's called a Quadrifold Abominatum, and it rules.
The Old Ones cometh... call Dr. Armitage at Miskatonic University at once!


Terrible Tyranid Codex Fluff Thread, initiate!
Mission accomplished

madprophet
11-01-2014, 16:54
It's not the first time GW has stolen liberally from Lovecraft... but that's okay as he was the original 'GrimDark' guy

Fangschrecken
11-01-2014, 19:30
To me, it's as if they're making noises that are the closes a human (Ork, Eldar ...) larynx can get to the thoughts of the Hive Mind. The psychic equivalent of the sounds you get from a dial-up modem or when someone tries to send a fax to a telephone.

Calgar: Can you read the beast's thought's Tigurius? (gestures at downed carnifex)
Tigurius puts his hands on the beast's head and begins making fax to telephone noises.
Sicarius: What does that mean?
Tigurius: It's a take-out menu.

Kakapo42
11-01-2014, 21:29
Maybe harpies and crones fly in the gigantic spore cloud what surrounds most bioships. In BFG they use that instead of void shields and turrets. The latter effect could represents these new bugs now.

I'd say it's more representative of fighters staying with the parent ship as a CAP. Tyranid Ordinance was never properly classified beyond broad categories for fighters, assault boats and boarding torpedos, which were assumed to represent a wide range of gribbly things launched by Hive Ships. I'd say Harpies and Crones would simply be one of said things launched in the role of fighters.

Anima
11-01-2014, 22:04
And sometimes all four greater daemons bust out of a portal together to have an awesome, friendly time. It's called a Quadrifold Abominatum, and it rules.

I think that was those four daemons specifically rather than a blanket term.

Balerion
11-01-2014, 22:37
If you want to get technical, the psyker is using "language" - not the 'Nids. He's been driven mad by the alien nature of the hive mind. Very Lovecraftian.

Actually, getting technical is the only way my scorn can function in this case. Otherwise, this:

Tongue to alien to pronounce makes me think it isnt a language in the way we perceive it but that language and tongue are just crude interpretations of communication that the lay reader could be expected to understand. It also wouldnt sound as grim dark if they just said the psykers were driven mad and made loads of clicks and hisses like bugs.
Is a valid interpretation. However (if you want to get technical) the usage of the words "phrases" and "tongue" indicate grammar, and an actual alien language, rather than terrified glossolalia spewed out as a response to inscrutable, unorganized alien thoughts.

Born Again
11-01-2014, 22:49
The codex says Hive Crones glide alongside bioships in space to protect them from enemy shuttles and bombers and such.

No flapping of wings is outright stated, there's plenty of room for us to assume something reasonable :)

Thank you, in that case I'm perfectly ok with this. Just the Internet New Fluff Alarm at work again, as I suspected.


Maybe harpies and crones fly in the gigantic spore cloud what surrounds most bioships. In BFG they use that instead of void shields and turrets. The latter effect could represents these new bugs now.

I'll take that, seems reasonable.

Muad'Dib
12-01-2014, 01:47
Is a valid interpretation. However (if you want to get technical) the usage of the words "phrases" and "tongue" indicate grammar, and an actual alien language, rather than terrified glossolalia spewed out as a response to inscrutable, unorganized alien thoughts.
Agreed - the way it's written, it seems to be tilted towards implying that Tyranids have language and communicate similarly to some of the extremely alien, but still recognizably civilized, races from Lovecraft*. While I'd say that the Hive Mind is more akin to Azathoth. The word 'tongue' is especially weird choice in this context - tongue implies need of communication between members of group, and (barring practically retconned Zoats) Tyranids haven't got such concept. (though I'm aware that previous codex might have had inklings of this) Or maybe they do - but not in any way that could be, even minimally, grasped by a maddened psyker.

The cited Fleshborer fluff blurb makes more sense - because it seems to be a case of the Psyker roughly translating the attitude/thought processes of the creature to human terms; rather than struggling to understand another species' means of communication.

*H.P Lovecraft spoiler:
Like the creatures in the Mountains of Madness.

baphomael
12-01-2014, 12:26
I think that was those four daemons specifically rather than a blanket term.

Thats how I read it, those four particular daemons where the Quadrifold Abominatum. In Apocalypse, for example, the same kind of alliance is labelled a Tetragon of Darkness.

Of course, greater daemons are quitr unique individuals and enjoy giving themselves all manner of grandiouse titles so its no surprise really.

Plague Lord
12-01-2014, 13:07
The tarrelian civilisation has been eaten by a hive fleet :( No Tarrelian Dog Soldiers in the next imperial guard dex :(

Retrospectus
12-01-2014, 13:09
Is a valid interpretation. However (if you want to get technical) the usage of the words "phrases" and "tongue" indicate grammar, and an actual alien language, rather than terrified glossolalia spewed out as a response to inscrutable, unorganized alien thoughts.

Perhaps that's the psykers mind attempting to convert tyranid thoughts into something we would regognize as language, and madness is the result. the psykers mind is the one turning it into language not the hive mind

thor2006
12-01-2014, 14:03
The tarrelian civilisation has been eaten by a hive fleet :( No Tarrelian Dog Soldiers in the next imperial guard dex :(

Why ahould it be anyway. The Tarelian hates IOM ,for what they did to them during GC. So they are not in any shape allied. It seams to me after the swift trashing from IOM during the GC the Tarelians would have adapted for a very mobile type of civilization.

Griefbringer
12-01-2014, 18:39
It's not the first time GW has stolen liberally from Lovecraft... but that's okay as he was the original 'GrimDark' guy

I don't think Mr H.P. will be rolling in his grave. My understanding is that back in the 1920's and 1930's he was actively corresponding with many other leading "weird fiction" authors of the day, and happily encouraging them to work on some of the themes that he had introduced. Similar attitude seems to have been quite common amongst many of his fellow writers, actually.

BTW: presumably the Alien (of the movie fame) was somewhat inspired by Lovecraft - and later on acted as an inspiration for the genestealers!

And not to derail the thread entirely, I remember that old Kryptman story in WD. Just need to dig it up and read again before I can comment on it.

Fangschrecken
12-01-2014, 19:08
The tarrelian civilisation has been eaten by a hive fleet :( No Tarrelian Dog Soldiers in the next imperial guard dex :(

Does this mean we'll never see space lizards krumpin' things?

Plague Lord
12-01-2014, 20:25
Does this mean we'll never see space lizards krumpin' things?

No werewolves with guns :(

Roscopackman
12-01-2014, 22:18
I don't generally feel the need to bail out GW for poorly-realised fluff additions, but in this instance I'm feeling generous...

As regards Crones and Harpies travelling through interstellar space, the descriptions in this month's WD make reference to the vents on the backs of the critters being necessary to vent the huge heat their bodies generate. This lends a certain credence to the 'space farts' theory, as perhaps this represents a way they could propel themselves in a vacuum. Tenuous I appreciate.

Omegon
12-01-2014, 23:11
The conversation about flying in space is amusing, by gliding there would be no ability to maneuver, so as it stands, it wouldn't work.

However, this thing about crones and harpies flying in space got me thinking about this article I read earlier:

http://digitaljournal.com/article/325785

It could be suggested that Tyranids use a similar form of propulsion to the one suggested in this article (using quantum physics) which would explain (at least to a sci-fi suspension of disbelief) how such an organism could move in space. Any flapping of wings would be instinctual behaviour.

Polaria
13-01-2014, 06:18
As I haven't yet read the relevant Codex entry I am not sure if they actually are stated to "fly in space" or "use their wings to fly into space" or "use their wings to fly in space". In this case the exact wording actually does matter. In any case they need their wings to fly in atmosphere and another system of propulsion to actually reach space and fly there.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk (http://tapatalk.com/m?id=1)

Sternguard777
13-01-2014, 07:28
Page 7, re: psykers pysking under the influence of the Shadow in the Warp:

"Should a psyker attempt to use his otherworldly abilities, the cerebral cacophony worsens even further; the psychic sound of a billion alien thoughts scratch at his mind, and unless he is particularly strong-willed he will be pitched into an insanity where he will repeatedly utter phrases in a tongue too alien to properly pronounce."

In DOW II: Retribution the Hive Mind speaks English. :D

In all the seriousness that our tiny plastic men/bugaliens deserve it makes sense to a degree that the Hive Mind has an understanding of at least some language. It is the collective intelligence of an entire race with a psychic presence so strong it blots out the warp as it approaches. At the very least it's read someones mind some three devoured galaxies ago and has picked language up if it didn't start with it.

ntw3001
13-01-2014, 08:41
The tarrelian civilisation has been eaten by a hive fleet :( No Tarrelian Dog Soldiers in the next imperial guard dex :(

Is that new? I don't remember whether it was Tyranids, but I think they were already scattered across the galaxy with no homeworld.

Felwether
13-01-2014, 09:47
The tarrelian civilisation has been eaten by a hive fleet :( No Tarrelian Dog Soldiers in the next imperial guard dex :(

The Tarellians would never have appeared in the IG Dex anyway. Their homeworlds were virus bombed by the Imperium during the Great Crusade so they absolutely HATE humans.


Is that new? I don't remember whether it was Tyranids, but I think they were already scattered across the galaxy with no homeworld.

You're right, they were eaten by Hive Fleet Moloch in the 5th Ed Codex.

EDIT: Also, this doesn't mean that the species has been entirely wiped out either. They're famous for working as mercenaries so there could be plenty of them spread out across the galaxy.

The_NightBringer
13-01-2014, 11:16
So, has the Tyranids' methods of FTL been discussed? Do they still employ Narwhals?

insectum7
13-01-2014, 12:17
"Should a psyker attempt to use his otherworldly abilities, the cerebral cacophony worsens even further; the psychic sound of a billion alien thoughts scratch at his mind, and unless he is particularly strong-willed he will be pitched into an insanity where he will repeatedly utter phrases in a tongue too alien to properly pronounce."


I don't see anything wrong with cross communication and coordination between lower synapse entities like Warriors. Then for fun's sake, what's the psychic version of one's stomach communicating hunger to one's brain, and ones brain telling arms and fingers to reach for food? Whatever the signals for that is, times 10^1000000.

Sgt John Keel
13-01-2014, 12:51
The codex says Hive Crones glide alongside bioships in space to protect them from enemy shuttles and bombers and such.

No flapping of wings is outright stated, there's plenty of room for us to assume something reasonable :)

Aren't they a little short for a Storm Troo… I mean, a bit small for doing battle with star craft?

Felwether
13-01-2014, 13:01
Aren't they a little short for a Storm Troo… I mean, a bit small for doing battle with star craft?

Not if there're hundreds of them swarming around the intended target. They're there to take on attack craft and bombers, not enemy ships.

Plague Lord
13-01-2014, 14:24
The Tarellians would never have appeared in the IG Dex anyway. Their homeworlds were virus bombed by the Imperium during the Great Crusade so they absolutely HATE humans.



You're right, they were eaten by Hive Fleet Moloch in the 5th Ed Codex.

EDIT: Also, this doesn't mean that the species has been entirely wiped out either. They're famous for working as mercenaries so there could be plenty of them spread out across the galaxy.

That was actually sarcastic. But I remember reading in the 3rd ed ig codex that tarrelians fight for the IOM...

Felwether
13-01-2014, 14:31
That was actually sarcastic.

Ah...

Failure to interpret internet sarcasm - my one true weakness! ;)

soultaker87
13-01-2014, 14:54
Sooooooo calgar finally gets his revenge against the swarmlord...WTF?! When did this happen?

Retrospectus
13-01-2014, 16:36
Aren't they a little short for a Storm Troo… I mean, a bit small for doing battle with star craft?

not when there's a hundred of them for every shuttle

ryng_sting
13-01-2014, 17:41
Sooooooo calgar finally gets his revenge against the swarmlord...WTF?! When did this happen?

It was in WD yonks ago.

Sgt John Keel
13-01-2014, 17:48
not when there's a hundred of them for every shuttle

Is that an effective use of resources though?

On the other hand, Thunderhawks are apparently superior to all other star fighters while being a third of the size, so…

AndrewGPaul
13-01-2014, 21:19
The conversation about flying in space is amusing, by gliding there would be no ability to maneuver, so as it stands, it wouldn't work.

What do you mean? gliders can certainly manoeuvre. If you're taking issue with the word "glide", one can assume that it's being used in a metaphorical sense - in a similar way to how ice skaters can be said to "glide across the ice", or somesuch. It's no use than using the word "fly", to my mind; that's not really an appropriate verb either, but no-one seems to mind.

Fangschrecken
14-01-2014, 03:21
The conversation about flying in space is amusing, by gliding there would be no ability to maneuver, so as it stands, it wouldn't work.

However, this thing about crones and harpies flying in space got me thinking about this article I read earlier:

http://digitaljournal.com/article/325785

It could be suggested that Tyranids use a similar form of propulsion to the one suggested in this article (using quantum physics) which would explain (at least to a sci-fi suspension of disbelief) how such an organism could move in space. Any flapping of wings would be instinctual behaviour.

Maybe I'm missing something, but that article doesn't go into much detail at all.

Now most conventional means of travel are based on Newton's third law. Every actions has an equal and opposite reaction. IE, expelling particles really fast out one end leads to movement in the opposite direction.

So let's get weird here. What if you can, in fact, fold space? Erebus and any other warp adepts are capable for slicing through the material universe to the warp and then emerging back in the material universe. The hive mind is a massively powerful psychic power. To the degree that star systems go dark when hive fleets are near. Even teeming masses of Orks, with their own warp gods, can't cause that. So it seems logical that the tyranid fleets would be able to enter the warp if they so chose. Now, because they lack geller fields, they can't do that without risking mutations and such (abhorrent to the hive fleet), but, I think they could skim the warp like Tau ships were able to last edition. Before the writers decided that sleeper ships sounded cooler even though they make far less sense.

daveNYC
14-01-2014, 09:11
Extragalactic is not the word they're looking for.

Crones in space doesn't make much sense, since the requirements for efficient space flight are totally different from the requirements for efficient atmospheric flight. Not to mention that any heat dissipation issues the crone has would be magnified due to the lack of both conduction and convection as usable heat transfer methods in space.

Polaria
14-01-2014, 10:23
Extragalactic is not the word they're looking for.

Unless they meant the extragalactic space, through which the Tyranids have travelled to reach our galaxy...

In this case the use of crones in two roles (space and atmospheric flight) might make some sense. Maybe the crones were adapted for space travel during the long voyage to reach our galaxy and now have started to evolve into dual-role beasts with limited atmospheric and void capabilities. Tyranids are supposed to evolve all the time to meet new challenges so maybe during a long planetary campaign the crones lose their space-flight completely and evolve into strictly atmospheric flight.



Crones in space doesn't make much sense, since the requirements for efficient space flight are totally different from the requirements for efficient atmospheric flight.

For the very same reasons use of space shuttles doesn't make much sense, but if you want something that can climb up the gravity-well from planetside to space and glide back then you are stuck with a compromise that is bad in both worlds.

LexxBomb
14-01-2014, 11:08
For the very same reasons use of space shuttles doesn't make much sense, but if you want something that can climb up the gravity-well from planetside to space and glide back then you are stuck with a compromise that is bad in both worlds.

actually the shuttle makes quite a bit of sense... in space the shape does not matter... a cube is just as effective as anyo ther shape. The limitations of the shuttle design are purely mass, meaning it takes more fuel...(its shape is quite good at cuting through air on the way to orbit). There is a very good real world reason all the commercial space vehicles being designed are being designed along similar paths. Its not like the shuttle has had more catasrophic failures on entry then anyother model... in fact if you compare all the types of human inhabited vehicles sent into orbit the shuttle has had the least number of accidents. Also if that design wasn't effective why do we use similar designs for the U2 and SR17 spy aircraft?

Polaria
14-01-2014, 12:27
Due to the wings being very small in relation to the dimensions of the hull the space shuttle has very poor maneuverability in atmosphere and in space the wings are just extra mass, which means extra inertia you must overcome to change trajectory, which means the design is also sub-optimal for space maneuverability. Thus the design, while quite celver in itself, is clearly suboptimal for both in-atmosphere in in-space flight.

As for Lockheed U-2 or SR-71, one look at pictures of them and Space Shuttle orbiter side-by-side means the design is nowhere near the same:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:STS_orbiter.png
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Lockheed_U-2_0014.jpg
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Lockheed_SR-71A_3view.svg

daveNYC
14-01-2014, 12:38
Wha? The U2 and the SR71 are completely different aircraft. Different designs, different operating specs, different performance targets, different freaking everything. The only overlap is that they have wings, engines, and a pilot. The space shuttle is actually a hellish compromise caused by multiple demands, including the damn Air Force, which wanted to be able to put stuff into polar orbit with it, long story short, a capability that demanded a lot of changes and was never used. And don't even get started on the relative safety of the shuttle. Same number of accidents as the Soyuz, but a hell of a higher body count.

The main fluff about the Tyranids is that they were all in hibernation during their travel between galaxies. Even with the best handwavium that 40k can come up with, it'd still be taking centuries, if not millennia to travel between galaxies, so keeping a CAP of crones going would just result in a massive waste of resources.

The other thing about the Tyranids is that they tend to specialize. If they want to genengineer some sort of space fighter critter, then they'll do just that. They'll create some ugly spacebug. If they need something for the atmosphere, then they'll pop out something like the crone. Creating something that can do both might be more efficient in the sense that you need less resources and wouldn't have to maintain as large a force, but the Tyranids are all about large forces and unlimited resources.

Loginis
14-01-2014, 12:46
Oh, I found something:
http://natfka.blogspot.co.uk/2013/03/tyranids-look-back.html
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-xILRBIFTszk/UTNnrP4sx0I/AAAAAAAAUr4/GGTUp-3wYoE/s1600/Image0002.JPG

Griefbringer
14-01-2014, 16:24
but the Tyranids are all about large forces and unlimited resources.

Maybe not unlimited, but vast resources.

Never mind that they are extremely efficient in assimilating all the biomass that they encounter, combined with being probably the biggest recyclers in the whole galaxy.

gLOBS
15-01-2014, 02:12
To be fair they are probably just trying to up the ante to gibberish +1 by making seem like alien gibberish instead of plain old regular gibberish.

Harwammer
15-01-2014, 18:46
I think we can solve the problem of heat accumulation* and propulsion in one go. Excess heat could be used to energise jets used for propulsion.

*also I don't think heat accumulation would be that much of a problem in space. The primary heat loss strategy for many land animals is radiation. Animals adapted to dealing with extreme heat stress (such as humans, and kangaroos) also employ evaporation (sweating, licking skin covering exposed capillary networks). Both radiation and evaporation could be adapted to work in space.

The biggest problem is having atmospheric fliers be the same as space flyers strays from the nid's 'make everything a specialist' theme. Maybe Hive Fleets travel through space in giant gas clouds, like Ork ships do? Or perhaps Imperial Xenologists are mistaken and space flyers are actually completely different to Tyranid aerial flyers?

Loginis
15-01-2014, 23:04
It is stated in BFG that bioships are surrounded by a gigantic spore cloud (as I already pointed it out in this thread).

Retrospectus
16-01-2014, 14:39
perhaps they aren't the same creature but different variations of eachother. the space borne version may look similar enough to the atmospheric version to get lumped into the same pigeonhole

Zenithfleet
19-01-2014, 07:42
Extragalactic is not the word they're looking for.

Crones in space doesn't make much sense, since the requirements for efficient space flight are totally different from the requirements for efficient atmospheric flight. Not to mention that any heat dissipation issues the crone has would be magnified due to the lack of both conduction and convection as usable heat transfer methods in space.

My arts background may be showing here, but couldn't they use their wings for heat loss? Not by flapping, but just, you know, having them. Like elephant ears (sort of). Or the big rocket fins that Kubrick and Clarke almost put on the Discovery spaceship in 2001: A Space Odyssey. (As I recall, they decided not to because they were worried the audience would think the fins were for flying in atmosphere rather than for heat loss and would therefore sneer at the film for 'bad science'. Reality is unrealistic!)

And regarding the 'nids having a kind of language:



The meat-things seek to destroy ourselves. They hunt us as we hunt them but they are weak and uncertain. Trap the inferior flesh and then our strength will consume them.
(etc)


I thought it was a bit silly even at the time (and I think the mission cards were the only place where that kind of thing ever appeared) but there's definitely precedent.

Oh, and was that WD 130 story by Ian Watson? Based on AndrewGPaul's quote, it certainly sounds like it. :shifty: