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I Am Forsaken
13-01-2014, 05:39
So just about every CSM list I've read on here recently features Nurgle bikers, and why not? They're Toughness 6!!!!

Now we all know that toughness is representative of how hard it is to kill a model and this got me to thinking, would riding a bike actually make you harder to kill?

Personally I think riding a high powered fast moving two wheeled vehicle through a debriss stricken warzone with bullets and missles flying around everywhere would actually make you a whole lot easier to take down. If you get shot in the shoulder for example its going to hurt and probably take you out of the fight, but isnt necessarily going to kill you (it very well may but not always). If you take the same shot while speeding along on a bike, your going to lose control, crash, fly through the air, all manner of other nastiness - not to mention shooting said bike may cause it to explode with you on top.

Now i'm not suggesting that bikes need a re-working - just something I thought was humorous is all.

Ssilmath
13-01-2014, 05:42
Have you seen how huge those bikes are? They aren't riding a bike, they put an SUV in a trash compactor and stuck handlebars on top.

frikandel speciaal
13-01-2014, 08:38
Have you seen how huge those bikes are? They aren't riding a bike, they put an SUV in a trash compactor and stuck handlebars on top.

Indeed, Space Marine bikes are nothing like ordinary bikes. Besides that, i think it's harder to hit a fast moving bike then someone on foot.
Anyway, 40k has nothing to do with logic.

Camman1984
13-01-2014, 09:04
Bikes are pretty enormous, the tyres alone are 5ft tall and 3ft wide. I think the increased toughness is because a bullet that hits the armoured cowling is one that doesnt hit your body.

Silversage
13-01-2014, 09:29
Think about it this way. The bikes give you +1 Toughness (and Jink) to represent the fact, that they move very fast and very easily around the battlefield, making them difficult to hit. Add to this that they are more like SUVs with handlebars and twin-linked bolters like Ssilmath said, meaning sturdy as hell. That probably is representative of how they are more difficult to knock down than a normal motorbike and that the metal parts on the bike do provide cover for much of the rider's torso. Also it's Spess Mehreens (or sometimes Orks) that are riding the bikes, one of their trademark abilities is to take a shot through the heart and barely grunt because of it. The +1 Toughness doesn't necessarily mean that the bike just simply is that difficult to destroy by hitting it with whatever instruments you can come up with; it shows how much more difficult is it to take out the guy riding the bike because of everything a motorbike gives its rider.

I Am Forsaken
13-01-2014, 09:48
Good points all, although it still seems off to me.

You all mention that these are no "ordinary" bikes, but no one mentions that the weapons/ammunition being fired at them isn't exactly ordinary either. Surely a round from a bolter (which unless I am mistaken are essentially exploding projectiles designed to punch through power armour) would be able to unsteady (is that a word?) a biker??

I guess that even though I shouldn't I still like to base things on a bit of reality......

Langdon
13-01-2014, 10:19
Good points all, although it still seems off to me.

You all mention that these are no "ordinary" bikes, but no one mentions that the weapons/ammunition being fired at them isn't exactly ordinary either. Surely a round from a bolter (which unless I am mistaken are essentially exploding projectiles designed to punch through power armour) would be able to unsteady (is that a word?) a biker??

I guess that even though I shouldn't I still like to base things on a bit of reality......

If i see a speeding bike, and I fire at it, i will miss.. You will have to fire in front of it, or to the side, or behind, or any other way just in case the biker changes course.

Fair enough, mini-rockets are being shot at them, but they have bikes that were built around that fact. The other reason it conveys +1toughness is to reflect that the bullet will hit the bike and not the person.. so their survivability will be increased.


Chuck in the fact that GW doesnt go in for balance (or seemingly playtesting) when it comes to rules, and you can quickly see how certain things that should work.. doesn't

Kakapo42
13-01-2014, 10:47
Good points all, although it still seems off to me.

You all mention that these are no "ordinary" bikes, but no one mentions that the weapons/ammunition being fired at them isn't exactly ordinary either. Surely a round from a bolter (which unless I am mistaken are essentially exploding projectiles designed to punch through power armour) would be able to unsteady (is that a word?) a biker??

I guess that even though I shouldn't I still like to base things on a bit of reality......

Well first of bolter rounds (the standard ones at least) aren't actually designed to punch through power armour - they're closer to fragmentation explosives, and are designed to inflict grievous harm on large tough but relatively unarmoured things (specifically Orks, which were one of the main races bolters were designed to defeat way way back in the dark age of technology as they were proving too tough to be efficiently killed by the other infantry-scale firearms of the time) by shredding them in a hurricane of shrapnel.

Like others have said, these aren't the same sorts of bikes as you're used to seeing when out and about. They're big and armoured, and a shot will be more likely to hit them than the rider, hence the extra point of toughness provided. Not only that, but I don't actually think they're that easy to unsteady. Looking at them closely, they are quite wide with large thick wide wheels/tires. I imagine they'd be much more stable than a present-day motorcycle would be, and much harder to tip over or send out of control.

Langdon
13-01-2014, 11:30
Well first of bolter rounds (the standard ones at least) aren't actually designed to punch through power armour - they're closer to fragmentation explosives, and are designed to inflict grievous harm on large tough but relatively unarmoured things (specifically Orks, which were one of the main races bolters were designed to defeat way way back in the dark age of technology as they were proving too tough to be efficiently killed by the other infantry-scale firearms of the time) by shredding them in a hurricane of shrapnel.

Like others have said, these aren't the same sorts of bikes as you're used to seeing when out and about. They're big and armoured, and a shot will be more likely to hit them than the rider, hence the extra point of toughness provided. Not only that, but I don't actually think they're that easy to unsteady. Looking at them closely, they are quite wide with large thick wide wheels/tires. I imagine they'd be much more stable than a present-day motorcycle would be, and much harder to tip over or send out of control.


In the book Ravenwing, some of the RW are turning on a dime around tight corners.. Granted RW are one of the better bikers in the universe, but it goes to show that those bikes can turn 90 degrees with little effort.. Sturdy as a brick Water Closet

Silversage
13-01-2014, 11:36
It says in the Horus Heresy book "Deliverance Lost" that one of the major issues during the Dropsite Massacre (well, you know, aside from the fact that half the Legions turned traitor) was that the loyalists' bolters were NOT designed to punch through the power armour their brethren wore whereas the traitors had designed bolt rounds that would shatter ceramite more easily. Why these rounds didn't become the de facto standard rounds for all the loyalists from that point on (maybe for the duration of the Heresy they did) I don't know, but looking at the stats for bolters and the specialist ammunition that Sternguard veterans get, they clearly did not.

Felwether
13-01-2014, 11:51
It says in the Horus Heresy book "Deliverance Lost" that one of the major issues during the Dropsite Massacre (well, you know, aside from the fact that half the Legions turned traitor) was that the loyalists' bolters were NOT designed to punch through the power armour their brethren wore whereas the traitors had designed bolt rounds that would shatter ceramite more easily. Why these rounds didn't become the de facto standard rounds for all the loyalists from that point on (maybe for the duration of the Heresy they did) I don't know, but looking at the stats for bolters and the specialist ammunition that Sternguard veterans get, they clearly did not.

Maybe these rounds were only slightly better at damaging power armour. Ie. not so much better as to warrant an increase in AP from a tabletop point of view.

Also, better penetration could possibly mean they replaced the shell's explosives with a solid core which could lead to them being less effective versus targets other than those in power armour.

frikandel speciaal
13-01-2014, 12:51
Good points all, although it still seems off to me.

You all mention that these are no "ordinary" bikes, but no one mentions that the weapons/ammunition being fired at them isn't exactly ordinary either. Surely a round from a bolter (which unless I am mistaken are essentially exploding projectiles designed to punch through power armour) would be able to unsteady (is that a word?) a biker??

I guess that even though I shouldn't I still like to base things on a bit of reality......

Well there really is no point in basing things on a bit of reality regarding 40K. Look at aliens like Necrons. What's realistic about them, or an Eldar Avatar for example? 40K is escaping from reality.

Commotionpotion
13-01-2014, 16:27
In 2nd edition, bikes were classified as open topped vehicles and even had their own datafaxes. You could nail the rider without damaging the bike. If the bike was moving it would then go out of control, moving randomly at the beginning of each movement phase until it either crashed into something or left the table. They often ended up causing more damage as unguided missiles than with gunfire (apart from Ork bikes, which used to pack a pair of autocannons when twin-linked meant 'two guns')

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