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lbecks
18-01-2014, 19:59
In response to Darnok responding to me in another thread


I hate going off topic, but I can't let this stand...

The current Statetroops kit is horrible, on an artistic and technical level. If you want to see what can be done with plastic troop kits of a similar kind, look to Perry Miniatures. If you want to see what can be done with plastic in general, you can even take GW itself for comparison. With the Statetroops a lot of things were done really wrong, and it often feels like the designers didn't even bother. And that's only on the technical level. Please don't get me started on the shoeless and donkeyfaced guys...

If you feel like you need to reply: please either PM it to me, or start a new thread. Thanks in advance for not further derailing this thread.

On a technical level the body proportions are fine and for single pose bodies there's nothing egregious about them. The level of actual minute detail is better than a lot of recent kits as they sit on the timeline when GW was starting to do less detailed infantry. Whether you like their pose or not is subjective. Whether you like their outfit or not is subjective.

Karak Norn Clansman
18-01-2014, 20:11
Look at renaissance soldiers, the best historical miniatures producers and the Empire state troopers in the illustrated story included in the collector's edition of WAR, and you'll see what they could have been.

As of now, they look like pyjama men, not professional soldiers. Give 'em more hats, feathers, slit puffs and breastplates instead.

There is a reason why so many use, or want to use, Greatswords to make State Troopers.

Darnok
18-01-2014, 20:23
If I don't respond within 24 hours, please bombard me with PMs. Right now I'm... unavailable. :shifty:

lbecks
18-01-2014, 20:32
Look at renaissance soldiers, the best historical miniatures producers and the Empire state troopers in the illustrated story included in the collector's edition of WAR, and you'll see what they could have been.

As of now, they look like pyjama men, not professional soldiers. Give 'em more hats, feathers, slit puffs and breastplates instead.

There is a reason why so many use, or want to use, Greatswords to make State Troopers.

That's all subjective. On an artistic level I don't really like the greatswords because they don't have enough armor. On a technical level they're also undersized compared to the state troopers and gunners. On an engineering level they have too many pieces.


If I don't respond within 24 hours, please bombard me with PMs. Right now I'm... unavailable. :shifty:

If you don't respond within 24 hours i'm just going to think you agree with me.

Darnok
18-01-2014, 20:40
If you don't respond within 24 hours i'm just going to think you agree with me.

NEVARR! :mad:

dutchwarlord
18-01-2014, 21:18
I quite like the "new" state troops too. They certainly have more realistic proportions than the previous ones. The musician's hand was about the same size as his head! I did like there puffy sleeves though.. The shoeless guy isn't that bad...

theJ
18-01-2014, 21:32
Wasn't around to see the former State Troopers, but I'll still have to throw my voice against the current ones.
You can call it subjective however much you want, it still does not make them look any statelier, nor like ******* troops.
What they look like is troglodytes, and if they were advertised as such, maybe I'd have more pity for them.* As things stand, however, they are a disgrace to the Empire and to Sigmar, and ought to be purged in righteous fire.

*Still wouldn't buy any, mind you.

Karak Norn Clansman
18-01-2014, 21:36
That's all subjective. On an artistic level I don't really like the greatswords because they don't have enough armor. On a technical level they're also undersized compared to the state troopers and gunners. On an engineering level they have too many pieces.

Perhaps the State Troopers and Handgunners are a tad oversized when compared to Greatswords, who would then have the most realistic human proportions of the mentioned kits, thereby also making them more suitable to field alongside old Regiments of Renown humans, who indeed have perfect 28mm "heroic" proportions due to being sculpted by the Perry twins?

I'm not that at home with the Empire range to talk about pieces or compare sizes, but know this, you have to get the subjective opinions of the "masses" if you are to understand the miscontent with the current State Troopers.

It's all about looks.

Myself, I don't mind their stances (although the way their behinds are sculpted gives the impression of having had a burst of uncontrolled diarrhea when viewed from the side...), which work well in hordes and gives motion to the unit. I don't mind their faces, although GW have put out some better ones (and for a stock kit of a major army the quality is crucial for the army as a whole, but the faces are not the problem). I don't even mind the barefoot man, since I can appreciate a bit of rugged poverty in historical or fantasy humans. I certainly don't mind that the hamfists of 5th/6th edition kits have disappeared, including for the current State Troopers. The old ones did however have superior uniforms and equipment, even though it was blunter sculpted.

I, like so many others, do mind their bland pyjama uniforms. Where are the big, puffy sleeves? Where are the armour pieces for the whole regiment? These are critical things, because they basically make up a model. That's why so many prefer Greatswords, old State Troopers, FW soldiers or historical miniature alternatives to the current plastics. That's why I have resisted the urge to start an Empire army, even though the imagery of Storm of Chaos pulled me very close to do so.

Hell, State Troopers are described as well-equipped, drilled professional soldiers. The miniatures don't match that description one iota.

It's subjective, and it's money talking. Or rather, lack of money talking.


If you don't respond within 24 hours i'm just going to think you agree with me.

If you do not respond within 24 microseconds I'm just going to think you agree with me. :p

lbecks
18-01-2014, 22:21
Perhaps the State Troopers and Handgunners are a tad oversized when compared to Greatswords, who would then have the most realistic human proportions of the mentioned kits, thereby also making them more suitable to field alongside old Regiments of Renown humans, who indeed have perfect 28mm "heroic" proportions due to being sculpted by the Perry twins?

The State Troopers and Gunners are consistent in size as foot infantry. Since the Great Swords were conceived as a theme continuation with compatible parts and they don't triangulate with them it's the odd midget out kit.


I'm not that at home with the Empire range to talk about pieces or compare sizes, but know this, you have to get the subjective opinions of the "masses" if you are to understand the miscontent with the current State Troopers.

It's all about looks.

Myself, I don't mind their stances (although the way their behinds are sculpted gives the impression of having had a burst of uncontrolled diarrhea when viewed from the side...), which work well in hordes and gives motion to the unit. I don't mind their faces, although GW have put out some better ones (and for a stock kit of a major army the quality is crucial for the army as a whole, but the faces are not the problem). I don't even mind the barefoot man, since I can appreciate a bit of rugged poverty in historical or fantasy humans. I certainly don't mind that the hamfists of 5th/6th edition kits have disappeared, including for the current State Troopers. The old ones did however have superior uniforms and equipment, even though it was blunter sculpted.

I, like so many others, do mind their bland pyjama uniforms. Where are the big, puffy sleeves? Where are the armour pieces for the whole regiment? These are critical things, because they basically make up a model. That's why so many prefer Greatswords, old State Troopers, FW soldiers or historical miniature alternatives to the current plastics. That's why I have resisted the urge to start an Empire army, even though the imagery of Storm of Chaos pulled me very close to do so.

Hell, State Troopers are described as well-equipped, drilled professional soldiers. The miniatures don't match that description one iota.

It's subjective, and it's money talking. Or rather, lack of money talking.

I addressed the uniforms in my original post in the other thread and understand why people would not like them based on their uniforms. Darnok contested that they aren't good models on a technical level, which I think they are. They're well proportioned, the sculpting is pretty good, regardless of the outfits they wear. And it sounds like you agree with that.


If you do not respond within 24 microseconds I'm just going to think you agree with me. :p

But I know you agree with me.

Karak Norn Clansman
18-01-2014, 22:41
Yesyes, but it's easy to make the mistake to miss the technical topic since the looks are so glaringly bad. I blame the sculptors.

However, Greatswords do have better proportions than State Troopers. Being sculpted after the State Troopers (in effect when Citadel sculptors might have realized they made a few mistakes) might explain the poor fit with the core infantry, which naturally should have been fully compatible to kitbash and bits mash with Greatswords.

Regarding this, how does the war machine crew of the Helblaster fit with the current Empire kits, and indeed the Archers? Do those fit well with Greatswords but less so with State Troopers in both technical and aesthetic terms?

Ponge
18-01-2014, 22:46
They are horrible models if you ask me. Seeing people actually like models, who are supposed to be professionally trained soldiers, without shoes just makes me wonder what GW has to do to make you dislike a model.

Spiney Norman
18-01-2014, 22:56
I dislike the current state troop models greatly, I currently have two large state troop units, a unit of 50 Spearmen using the 6th edition Spearmen from the starter set (opportunistically collected via ebay over the last few years) and 40 Halberdiers of the newer 7th ed plastics, I also have several smaller detachments of swordsmen using the 7h ed plastics.

The older models are more uniform, better equipped, and far simpler to paint, the newer models are over-detailed (which makes them an absolute nightmare to paint) and particularly the faces are badly designed. Also a lot of the decisions about not including shoes on some models are frankly just bizarre rather than characterful.

I would however like to express my appreciation to GW for making plastic greatswords which fit nicely alongside their older metal models (which is not something you can really say for any of the other plastic remakes of older metal units), adding a set of 10 plastics to my unit of 20 metals has really added diversity to the unit.

lbecks
18-01-2014, 23:14
Yesyes, but it's easy to make the mistake to miss the technical topic since the looks are so glaringly bad. I blame the sculptors.

However, Greatswords do have better proportions than State Troopers. Being sculpted after the State Troopers (in effect when Citadel sculptors might have realized they made a few mistakes) might explain the poor fit with the core infantry, which naturally should have been fully compatible to kitbash and bits mash with Greatswords.

Regarding this, how does the war machine crew of the Helblaster fit with the current Empire kits, and indeed the Archers? Do those fit well with Greatswords but less so with State Troopers in both technical and aesthetic terms?

The greatswords' legs are under proportioned. The feet are very tiny. Shorter than the Archer and State Troops feet. Apparently the greatswords are compensation for something. The archer bodies are taller than the great sword body if they were straightened out but shorter than a straightened out state trooper. I don't have the Helblaster but the scared guy from the Giant kit is consistent with the state trooper size.

Lord Solar Plexus
19-01-2014, 05:25
I couldn't say it any better than Spiney Norman: +1.

Lord Dan
19-01-2014, 06:14
If they looked anything like these guys they'd be baller:

http://1-media-cdn.foolz.us/ffuuka/board/tg/image/1338/44/1338446068144.jpg

As it stand they're something else entirely.

Karak Norn Clansman
19-01-2014, 08:47
@Lord Dan: That's what we're talking about! I miss the bell helmets.


The older models are more uniform, better equipped, and far simpler to paint, the newer models are over-detailed (which makes them an absolute nightmare to paint) and particularly the faces are badly designed.

Are you sure? I was convinced that the reason for GW's switch to pyjama uniforms was to make them easier to paint, since puff and slashes were perceived of as difficult and time consuming. They even said as much in the poor WD back when the 7th ed State Troopers were released.


I would however like to express my appreciation to GW for making plastic greatswords which fit nicely alongside their older metal models (which is not something you can really say for any of the other plastic remakes of older metal units), adding a set of 10 plastics to my unit of 20 metals has really added diversity to the unit.

Yes, this is bonus points to GW. They also receive it for their Stormvermin, which sits in nicely with the oldest models. Although the 6th edition monopose Stormvermin might not sit entirely fine alongside the new plastics.

dalezzz
19-01-2014, 11:04
Puffy sleeves can be awkward to paint... If you want ,you can just paint them a single coulour and be done with it ( maybe some ink?) skulls , hourglasses and all the other rubbish they have stuck to them are a bit more awkward , if you only painted 10 it would be ok , but as spiny said the average empire beginner is talking 50 .

500+ for a proper empire player of course ;)

Edit- as for the shoeless fella , he is essential for all stirland based army's , I think they use him as their general :D

quizmaster
19-01-2014, 11:33
The statetroops pictures soldiers on campaign (how long would your shoes last marching for weeks). I agree some faces are really ugly, but remember the Empire is still a peasant nation and peasants are just, well revolting. The older troops we're more in the style of those days 'paradeground' miniatures. You see a change in sculpting also in historical models. The Perrys sculpted 'paradeground' Napoleontics for years recently they made a serie 'retreat from Moscow'

Scammel
19-01-2014, 12:58
Can't say I massively agree with the comments concerning the faces in particular. The typical Imperial schmuck is going to be performing a convincing Quasimodo impression at the best of times, nevermind after any period of actual fighting.

lbecks
19-01-2014, 13:49
Are you sure? I was convinced that the reason for GW's switch to pyjama uniforms was to make them easier to paint, since puff and slashes were perceived of as difficult and time consuming. They even said as much in the poor WD back when the 7th ed State Troopers were released.


It's the torsos and belts with all the little trinkets that can give army painters headaches.

Darnok
19-01-2014, 13:57
I finally have some time, and I think I'll need it. I will try to respond to as many points as possible, so some people might be interested in a short version only. Here it is: in my opinion, the current kit of the Empire State Troops is bad, on both a technical and artistic level.

Now for the long one...

To have some visual reference, I will work mainly from the following two pictures:

185599 185600

These are straight from the box (copyright, of course, is with GW).


On a technical level the body proportions are fine.


They certainly have more realistic proportions than the previous ones.

This is wrong. The current models have too big heads and hands, while arms and legs are a bit too short and too fat - in general they are proportioned like kids/teens of about 12-ish years. For properly proportioned models, have a look at WotR infantry from Perry Miniatures, in direct comparison to a ST body:

185601 185602

In fact the previous state troops (done by, as you might know, the Perries) had - for the most part - much more accurate proportions...

That last picture brings me to the next big issue: the models are designed and cut badly. All bodies have a selection of things modelled to their belts (knifes, skulls, bags etc.). Usually these would come as extra bits, since plastic modling does not allow for undercuts - and it shows badly in this kit. Due to being molded directly to the body, many of those details come with extra plastic in those places where you normally would have said undercut. The same is true for some of the heads. That is not only annoying and quite ugly, but it shows exactly what I said: the kit is designed badly. It would have been very easy to solve this problem, but it was chosen to ignore it.

Another problem I have with this kit is the pretty low casting quality. Even at the time that kit was made, it was possible to produce much sharper details than what you get with the state troops. Most of the details look a bit "soft". It is the worst with the faces (where poor sculpting adds quite a bit - who made those donkey-faces?). In short: this is a sign of poor quality. GW has done better before, at that time and afterwards, and I just don't understand why they failed with this kit.

Onto my "favourite" part of this kit... :rolleyes:

185603

Please do the following: stand up from your PC/laptop/whatever, get a broomstick, and hold it like that trooper. Keep in mind that you are not allowed to close either of your hands around the stick! If you did so, you will realise the basic fail of this kit: it is impossible to hold a spear/helbard the way most of those models do. It is not exactly difficult to do it right - as the previous state troops kit and a lot of historical kits prove - so it is just so much worse that this very basic thing is done so horribly wrong! This might look like an overreaction to some, but simply imagine how you would feel if all your basic Space Marines would hold their bolters upside down - it would be incredibly silly, but you would have no choice but use them that way. And don't get me started on the thickness of the spearshafts...

None of the previous points are subjective things. However, the rest of my problems with the state troops is. I really don't like the amount of unnecessary "details" on the models - they don't add anything really, sometimes even look shockingly bad (see above), make the models convoluted in an unpleasant way, and take forever to paint. In my opinion, basic troops should have a certain simplicity: you need a lot of them, so "basic" is preferable. I also don't like the weapons. The thick shaft of the spears/helbards is objectively bad, but the mess of different designs of speartips, helbard blades and swords just doesn't fit with a unified state troop idea: they don't bring their own weapons, they get armed, and that should result in one specific weapon design. Those are no Orcs dammit!

Last, but not least, I actually don't mind some of the things that get criticised most often, i.e. the lack of shoes on one of the troopers. This is a deliberate design choice that you can like or not, and I happen to like it. I have no issue with the thought that some state troops might be in a not so perfect shape - and if you don't like it, you can ban those troopers into the middle of the unit, where you don't even see their feet. ;)

...

I hope I could make myself understood... :shifty:

Wesser
19-01-2014, 14:01
First of all. Even in Robin Hood movies you won't people in as tight pants as Empire State Troops. The old models had puffs on the legs which toned Down the Spandex-effect, but now it just looks....silly

Also a fairly large part of the imperial population is disfigured mutants. Several heads in the sprue hints at either mutation or distint orc heritage.

lbecks
19-01-2014, 14:25
This is wrong. The current models have too big heads and hands, while arms and legs are a bit too short and too fat - in general they are proportioned like kids/teens of about 12-ish years. For properly proportioned models, have a look at WotR infantry from Perry Miniatures, in direct comparison to a ST body:

185601 185602

In fact the previous state troops (done by, as you might know, the Perries) had - for the most part - much more accurate proportions...

The current models if straightened would be about 5 heads in height, similar to the Perry models, and lower than real proportions. Neither the Perry Models or the GW models are actually perfectly proportioned. Just look at the ham hands on that Perry guy on the right! Tom Meier had an old blog post dealing with proportion in miniatures and showed what actual realistic proportions would look like scaled down. He deleted his blog so sadly I can't link that. With that said the GW models are not out of proportion in a bad way. Their feet/forearm ratios are good and their hands actually aren't overly large, particularly in comparison to older GW models. Heads too.


That last picture brings me to the next big issue: the models are designed and cut badly. All bodies have a selection of things modelled to their belts (knifes, skulls, bags etc.). Usually these would come as extra bits, since plastic modling does not allow for undercuts - and it shows badly in this kit. Due to being molded directly to the body, many of those details come with extra plastic in those places where you normally would have said undercut. The same is true for some of the heads. That is not only annoying and quite ugly, but it shows exactly what I said: the kit is designed badly. It would have been very easy to solve this problem, but it was chosen to ignore it.

Most of the modern GW kits have filled in plastic areas. I don't hold it against the State Troopers because GW wanted to squeeze in the weapon options. I personally like separate kits but with all things considered I think they look fine. A hobby knife or file can also fix some of those problems if they both you a lot.



Another problem I have with this kit is the pretty low casting quality. Even at the time that kit was made, it was possible to produce much sharper details than what you get with the state troops. Most of the details look a bit "soft". It is the worst with the faces (where poor sculpting adds quite a bit - who made those donkey-faces?). In short: this is a sign of poor quality. GW has done better before, at that time and afterwards, and I just don't understand why they failed with this kit.

I find the casting to be okay. The worst casting job in the past decade are the cold one knights. There's also one guy with a donkey/monkey face. The rest look like lowborn grimy people. The kit is also head compatible with the other Empire kits so you can replace them if you like.


Onto my "favourite" part of this kit... :rolleyes:

185603

Please do the following: stand up from your PC/laptop/whatever, get a broomstick, and hold it like that trooper. Keep in mind that you are not allowed to close either of your hands around the stick! If you did so, you will realise the basic fail of this kit: it is impossible to hold a spear/helbard the way most of those models do. It is not exactly difficult to do it right - as the previous state troops kit and a lot of historical kits prove - so it is just so much worse that this very basic thing is done so horribly wrong! This might look like an overreaction to some, but simply imagine how you would feel if all your basic Space Marines would hold their bolters upside down - it would be incredibly silly, but you would have no choice but use them that way. And don't get me started on the thickness of the spearshafts...

I agree that it's a weird artistic choice they made to hold the halberds like that.

gogs78
19-01-2014, 14:47
If they looked anything like these guys they'd be baller:

http://1-media-cdn.foolz.us/ffuuka/board/tg/image/1338/44/1338446068144.jpg

As it stand they're something else entirely.


Thats how they should look alright.

I think some of the perry twins models from the war of the roses range would work pretty well.

SpaceGimli
19-01-2014, 19:12
I quite like the kit - although all those hourglasses and skulls are a pain in the backside I think they are worth the fiddly painting. I'm a quarter of the way through my first unit so I'm still quite optimistic.

The realism thing does not bother me at all - the fact they hold their halberds wrong and have big heads seems like a drop in the ocean when I am playing a game where I pretend a kitchen table full of arty plastic is a battle between rat-men and some morally dubious elves!

The old kit wasn't that bad - but I like what I see as design consistence throughout the 'new' Empire range - which in my opinion makes it the most attractive to collect in WFB.

Darnok
19-01-2014, 19:38
The realism thing does not bother me at all - the fact they hold their halberds wrong and have big heads seems like a drop in the ocean when I am playing a game where I pretend a kitchen table full of arty plastic is a battle between rat-men and some morally dubious elves!

Are you familiar with the concept of "suspension of disbelief"? That even very basic things aren't done right takes away from the fantasy elements in WHF.

Pariah-Miniatures
20-01-2014, 07:20
Most of the empire new models don't have eyes. Just an actual slit and a bottom eyelid. Look at the state troops and flagellents. I do think the state troops are definately the weakest of the new empire range. I think a really overlooked box set are the archers/ huntsmen. Loads of character

Kingly
20-01-2014, 11:30
(Before I start It's probably worth pointing out I'm a Rose tinted glasses fan boy when it comes to Games Workshop.)
I have just started a Tale of nine gamers Plog and I chose Empire, I was blown away with the quality of the finecast Priest of Sigmar with two hammers, I took a while on the job and he looks pretty darn great. I then switched to the ten Halberd and Ten Crossbow state troops and realised how god darn awful they are.

Darnock has spelled it out in whole, they're disproportionate, especially for a bunch of humans that have probably been on the brink of starvation for their entire life.

In contrast, like Pariah has pointed out, the Flagellants are incredible miniatures! So lovely! Great details and the guy fighting in stocks is amazing, I was on the brink of quitting the Plog with Empire in favour of someone else but the Flagellants brought me right back into the fold, thank god for them.

Also on a plus note the Flagellants come with about 20 heads so you can throw the extra ten onto the statetroops that you may be forced to buy.

I do like the look of the Perry stuff...Might buy some and see how it goes, I much prefer the armoured look of the guys, in all honesty though do they size up well with the Gw guys?

Darnok
20-01-2014, 11:39
I do like the look of the Perry stuff...Might buy some and see how it goes, I much prefer the armoured look of the guys, in all honesty though do they size up well with the Gw guys?

It is in German, but this review (http://www.brueckenkopf-online.com/?p=11415) might help you nonetheless. One of the comparison shots with two GW models:

185686

In all honesty: if you are not bound to play in a GW store, I would always suggest getting the PM models for your state troops. They are superior models, of better quality, and they are massively cheaper. Just do it if you can.

Griefbringer
20-01-2014, 12:15
Speaking of Perrys late medieval models, they are also currently working on a set of plastic dismounted men-at-arms ("foot knights"). These could make an interesting option for greatswords - especially for those who want to have their greatswords actually wearing full plate armour. Expected release date hopefully sometime this year.

185687

Darnok
20-01-2014, 12:17
A GS horde that doesn't cost an arm and a leg? Sounds awesome! :yes:

Kingly
20-01-2014, 14:23
Mmm they look pretty great as well!

Ok I will give them a shot, they look quite thin in the comparison shot mind...Is it an English company?

Darnok
20-01-2014, 14:34
Perry Miniatures (http://www.perry-miniatures.com/) is a UK firm. You can order directly from them, but any retailer worth that name will carry their products too.

Griefbringer
20-01-2014, 14:38
Yes, Perry Miniatures is an English company based in Nottingham, producing historical miniatures in plastic and metal. It is run by sculptor twins Alan and Michael Perry, who have also done a massive lot of sculpting for GW plus quite some sculpting for Wargames Foundry.

You can find their website at:

http://www.perry-miniatures.com/

Notice that the plastic sets are also available through many retailers (possibly at a slightly reduced price).

Coldhatred
20-01-2014, 19:29
It's the torsos and belts with all the little trinkets that can give army painters headaches.

This. All the little things on the models remind me off the Witch Hunter warband from Mordheim. These are professional soldiers, not religious fanatics. I like the 6th Edition Empire models the best.

Boreas_NL
20-01-2014, 19:35
I have a 10.000+ points Empire army, including well over 250 State Troopers, yet I have just one plastic State Trooper model in my entire collection...

How?
I used Reiksguard on foot as Swordsmen, 6th ed. Spearmen as Spearmen and plastic Greatswords as Halberdiers. I used plastic Archers and Forge World Ironsides as Handgunners. The only plastic State Trooper that is actually in my army is heavily kit-bashed and can be found in my Free Company...

Why?
The plastic State Troops suck as much ass as the 8th ed. Empire army book, they are just as bland and reek of sloppy design work...

Pariah-Miniatures
20-01-2014, 21:05
While the flagellents have their extra goodies, I was using them to compare how the state troops and most of the empire range do not have eyes. And they seem giant compared to the state troops. They kit that I think is underrated is the archers.

Darnok
20-01-2014, 21:14
I think nobody who ever actually worked with the archer kit can underrate it. It's fantastic! I took some militia bodies and bow arms, and ended up with 20 pretty archers. :yes:

Lt Dougheim
21-01-2014, 01:37
The new state troops are hideous. They lack the character of the old 5th ed metal models. It's why I only collect the older stuff.

m1acca1551
21-01-2014, 03:02
They aren't that bad... Well at least until you compare them to the competition and then you can begin to see the inferior design quality and don't mention the cost!!!

Again a case of GW thinking it's the only kid on the block... Perry miniatures are stunning, would highly recommend for any empire collector or mercenary and Brettonians out there.

Lord Dan
21-01-2014, 07:53
I think nobody who ever actually worked with the archer kit can underrate it. It's fantastic! I took some militia bodies and bow arms, and ended up with 20 pretty archers. :yes:

The comparative aesthetic changes to the Archer and Greatsword kits in the form of a return to 5th and 6th edition designs indicates that even GW acknowledges that the current State Troop models don't look the way they envision Empire State Troops to look.

Karak Norn Clansman
21-01-2014, 16:27
Agreed. Also, the archer kit features a nice shot Orc extra. Even better than the powder monkey.

More of that, please, maestros at GW.

Lord Dan
22-01-2014, 06:51
Agreed. Also, the archer kit features a nice shot Orc extra. Even better than the powder monkey.

More of that, please, maestros at GW.

I totally forgot about that addition. Brilliant stuff.

SpanielBear
24-01-2014, 14:19
Agreed on all fronts. I used a lot of empire for a kit-bashed imperial guard army, and the kits I found most useful by far were the greatswords and archers. Some of the state-troop heads were okay- yes they're ugly, yes they are pox-ridden, but for a unit of unwashed masses thats fine. I never used a single state trooper body- so hunched and mishapen, the only attempts I made came out looking like chimpanzees.

The greatswords made fantastic carapace veterans though, and the archers became really characterful ratlings. To be honest, I'd say the state troops are one of GW's few out-and-out misses when it comes to recent plastics.

And yes, more more more of the incidental pieces- dead orcs, powder monkeys, seagulls and wood elf spites- these are brilliant!