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View Full Version : True LOS - So what DOES block the ability to shoot?



Mc1gamer
20-01-2014, 03:35
Yep, I read the rules in the rule book, but after plenty of searching, plenty of discussions at my lgs, I'm still confused. Do all the forests now need to be remodeled to be fuller to represent an actual forest and not a 3 tree grove? I've been away for 15+ years and TLOS have me scratching my head and shaking my fist at anyone with a cannon. I don't want to be a poor sport, but it seems that it simply gives carte blanche to anyone shooting to shoot anywhere within range. Please, to all who have been playing WHFB under these rules, tell me how this is supposed to be played. Thanks!!!

moonlapse
20-01-2014, 06:29
If the model can see it, it can shoot it. I think*that's about it. There's some extra stuff about minuses to hit if protected by certain types of cover, but that's the jist of the rule.

decker_cky
20-01-2014, 06:49
Yeah...ignore wings, banners and a few other bits. If you can draw a line from the model shooting to the unit they want to shoot, there's line of sight.

Cannons need to be able to see the place they put their marker, which in certain cases makes it tougher for them to target a unit that they can see.

Artinam
20-01-2014, 09:59
Alternatively you can house rule it, that forests block line of sight and that hills are infintely high for determining LOS (so you can hide monsters behind it).

Mc1gamer
20-01-2014, 12:45
Alternatively you can house rule it, that forests block line of sight and that hills are infintely high for determining LOS (so you can hide monsters behind it).


This is how I most remember it played. Seems kinda silly that forests offer no protection, takes that whole part of the game strat away. Also what do you guys say about TLOS through intervening units? I had a player draw with a laser pointer between the legs of cavalry, and even between his own block of units to shoot. Seems over the top when you consider that the units aren't supposed to be frozen in time lol.

Artinam
20-01-2014, 13:22
Perfectly legal and following the rules. Its a bit weird and it gives advantages to some older models over others (Older dwarven stonethrower can see over dwarves because its cross mechanism is higher then the newer version). One of the few things I hope they change in the new edition.

Keep in mind that with the cannon he must be able to see the spot on the ground (or the model) which he targets. Its a little something some people forget.

Untill now I have only called out sheninigans with a matter like this. A based Dark Elf repeater boltthrower who was put on a base, and the base featured a rock (looks great) but because of this he claimed he could shoot trough his spearmen (with the tall helmets) without suffering the heavy cover modifiers.

shakedown47
20-01-2014, 13:33
Whether or not to house rule the effects of a "forest" template on LOS and shooting depends entirely on what your view of the forest is. If you believe it's merely a copse of half a dozen or so trees with some brush built up in it, IMO it's perfectly represented by the -1 to hit modifier. If you think that a small stand of trees (say, the size of the GW tree base that couldn't possibly represent more than 6 or 7 significantly sized trees) would be enough to completely block LOS to the unit, then just say that the forest template is covered through and through with dozens of trees that couldn't possibly allow clean sight lines. It's also worth noting that solution isn't technically a house rule altering the game's rules, it's just a house rule altering the composition of the terrain you're using (i.e. for sake of gameplay, you're not actually putting down hundreds of trees only to have to move them multiple times over the course of a game.)

In the case of a player using a laser pointer to draw LOS through the legs of cavalry, I would call BS. For one thing, that laser couldn't possibly be coming from head/muzzle level, as it's supposed to. For another, except for the case of volley fire or stonethrower indirect fire, every firing model must have LOS to its target, not just one.

Banville
20-01-2014, 14:04
The whole TLOS thing is ridiculous and smacks of some marketing dude's oar being shoved in. How do we make the game more "cinematic"? Force a player to bend down so that they are immersed in the narrative of the battle. Then spend fifteen minutes arguing over basing/posing/eyeline. This is an abstract game that operates on an abstract level. TLOS should be abstract. I'd argue that taking on both WHFB and 40k that TLOS has had a net negative rather positive impact.

Mc1gamer
20-01-2014, 14:29
Whether or not to house rule the effects of a "forest" template on LOS and shooting depends entirely on what your view of the forest is. If you believe it's merely a copse of half a dozen or so trees with some brush built up in it, IMO it's perfectly represented by the -1 to hit modifier. If you think that a small stand of trees (say, the size of the GW tree base that couldn't possibly represent more than 6 or 7 significantly sized trees) would be enough to completely block LOS to the unit, then just say that the forest template is covered through and through with dozens of trees that couldn't possibly allow clean sight lines. It's also worth noting that solution isn't technically a house rule altering the game's rules, it's just a house rule altering the composition of the terrain you're using (i.e. for sake of gameplay, you're not actually putting down hundreds of trees only to have to move them multiple times over the course of a game.)

In the case of a player using a laser pointer to draw LOS through the legs of cavalry, I would call BS. For one thing, that laser couldn't possibly be coming from head/muzzle level, as it's supposed to. For another, except for the case of volley fire or stonethrower indirect fire, every firing model must have LOS to its target, not just one.


I don't get the LOS thru other units. I saw a guy line up his cannon in a corner and claimed he could shoot thru the diagnal of his units. They aren't frozen stiff while he shoots! They are moving and forming and shifting. Should I perhaps convert filler bases with walls to combat this? I actually planned to do that to make some cool looking grave scenes with zombies and skellies to fill in the gaps. I always thought the basic rule of intervening units blocked the units behind them, unless the units behind them are large monsters, or the shooters were elevated such that they could shoot over interposing units. This idea of shooting over your own units because you can see between the shoulders of their ranks is complete BS.

IS this really how the tourney scene does it? I imagine the local stores having a variety of house rules. Whats the uniform most often interpreted rule on the tourney circuit? Not that there's more or less validity, but I always gauge vs the hardcore interpretations with the uber competitive folk to see how over powered things are, because competition breeds exploits. Even though I've been away from WHFB for a bit, I didn't give up gaming so this is not unfamiliar to me.

It kills me that terrain strat is nearly gone with this BS rule. Sigh....

shakedown47
20-01-2014, 14:37
The whole TLOS thing is ridiculous and smacks of some marketing dude's oar being shoved in. How do we make the game more "cinematic"? Force a player to bend down so that they are immersed in the narrative of the battle. Then spend fifteen minutes arguing over basing/posing/eyeline. This is an abstract game that operates on an abstract level. TLOS should be abstract. I'd argue that taking on both WHFB and 40k that TLOS has had a net negative rather positive impact.

I disagree. It's the players alone that have caused any controversy whatsoever. If determining TLOS takes more than 5 seconds, you're doing it wrong. If having your opponent double-check your estimation takes longer than 15 seconds (including the time it takes him to walk to your side of the table) then he's doing it wrong. If either of you produces a laser pointer at any time, you're doing it wrong. Sure, it takes a tad longer to resolve than 7th's and previous editions' LOS rules, but not by any significant amount AND it's a needed boost for BS-based shooting now that there are vanguard movements and random charges (and that's coming from a WoC player.)

Montegue
20-01-2014, 14:49
I disagree. It's the players alone that have caused any controversy whatsoever. If determining TLOS takes more than 5 seconds, you're doing it wrong. If having your opponent double-check your estimation takes longer than 15 seconds (including the time it takes him to walk to your side of the table) then he's doing it wrong. If either of you produces a laser pointer at any time, you're doing it wrong. Sure, it takes a tad longer to resolve than 7th's and previous editions' LOS rules, but not by any significant amount AND it's a needed boost for BS-based shooting now that there are vanguard movements and random charges (and that's coming from a WoC player.)

Gotta agree. I hate LOS rules that turn one inch mountains into infinite line of sight blocking terrain, etc. The only thing needed for true line of sight is reasonable people.

The real problem is terrain density and diversity on most tables. Playing the game as writen puts a lot of terrain of varying types on the board, and much of that terrain can and does foul up line of sight for cannons and other shooting.

That's hard for large competitive events only from a cost and man hours perspective. However, communities can fix that by producing terrain pieces that help things step more in line with the rules.

Mc1gamer
20-01-2014, 14:53
So you support the notion that you can shoot a cannon or bolt thrower thru the legs and between the shoulders of intervening blocks units of your own troops, just because you lined them up and on angle to your cannon? This is the accepted norm at tourneys too?

shakedown47
20-01-2014, 14:56
So you support the notion that you can shoot a cannon or bolt thrower thru the legs and between the shoulders of intervening blocks units of your own troops, just because you lined them up and on angle to your cannon? This is the accepted norm at tourneys too?

I can't say, I'd have to get down at table level and look :)

Avian
20-01-2014, 21:46
I wish they'd either gone the Privateer Press route and actually HAVE rules for line of sight, or alternatively simply said that you can see everything all the time, provided it's in your front arc. Either of those would have been better than the vague almost-rule they have now (good luck determining if something is half concealed - they never even say what they mean by that).

Banville
20-01-2014, 22:30
What Avian said. The rules as written are neither one thing nor the other. And the reason that there was no need to waste time checking LOS through units, over hills or between trees was because you couldn't shoot through them so nobody did. This whole model's eye view thing is a nonsense. Some of the modelling jobs I've seen to exploit it have been ridiculous. I know you can say that this sort of behaviour is not in the spirit of the game and makes no common sense but the thing about common sense is....

On the flipside, I've a friend who has spent literally years painting and basing each individual model on stones, bits of balsa to represent decking etc etc, and his Jezzails were deemed to be beardy because he has them perched up on rocks, and has done for years.

As Avian said. If you're going to include a concept like TLOS then you must write in restrictions to base sizes/modelling and be a lot more black and white about what constitutes an "obscured" target.

kafrique
20-01-2014, 23:09
I disagree. It's the players alone that have caused any controversy whatsoever. If determining TLOS takes more than 5 seconds, you're doing it wrong. If having your opponent double-check your estimation takes longer than 15 seconds (including the time it takes him to walk to your side of the table) then he's doing it wrong. If either of you produces a laser pointer at any time, you're doing it wrong. Sure, it takes a tad longer to resolve than 7th's and previous editions' LOS rules, but not by any significant amount AND it's a needed boost for BS-based shooting now that there are vanguard movements and random charges (and that's coming from a WoC player.)

So it takes longer to resolve, is less clear, more subjective, and prone to causing disputes. Sounds like a problem with the rules.

forseer of fates
20-01-2014, 23:23
Unless there is a building fully in the way, pretty much nothing will block line of sight, stupid, but there it is.

ArtificerArmour
21-01-2014, 17:46
bear in mind a hill does not stop a cannonball. shoot at a spot infront of the hill, it miraculously bounces over the hill onto the model behind said hill, trying to hide

Artiee
21-01-2014, 17:53
bear in mind a hill does not stop a cannonball. shoot at a spot infront of the hill, it miraculously bounces over the hill onto the model behind said hill, trying to hide

Same goes with a building on the 1st roll.

Danny76
21-01-2014, 22:23
So you support the notion that you can shoot a cannon or bolt thrower thru the legs and between the shoulders of intervening blocks units of your own troops, just because you lined them up and on angle to your cannon? This is the accepted norm at tourneys too?

The point to note here is it isn't firing in a straight line like a laser.
A cannonball is in the air above these units until the first impact, then the bounce onwards is at the person level.
Not that games should be compared to real life.
Though in real cannon firing, the crew could indeed fire 'through' their units like that if they could see the point past all the men, as they're trained to do so.

yabbadabba
21-01-2014, 22:30
Do all the forests now need to be remodeled to be fuller to represent an actual forest and not a 3 tree grove? No. You will find that there are some people who will insist on this, but there is nothing stopping you and your opponent saying that a base of trees, with only three trees, represents a TLOS blocking forest and therefore any LOS that crosses that base will be blocked.

Wesser
22-01-2014, 21:17
Cursed TLOS

The only Things that block TLOS is Buildings, hills and Great Unclean Ones... And usually there's always some angle where you can Draw LOS around these.

It's the most horribly stupid thing in all warhammer...

forseer of fates
22-01-2014, 22:37
It does speed up the game thou, I once had a unit of cav stuck in some woods for 6 turns once in old editions was quite ridiculous.

kramplarv
22-01-2014, 23:27
That has nothing to do with TLOS though :)

Lord Solar Plexus
23-01-2014, 06:49
It's really not as bad as people make it out to be. If you're squabbling over TLoS all the time, how in the world do you agree how many models are under a template or whether the distance is 10 or 10.5" (=11")?

kramplarv
23-01-2014, 09:04
Laser pointer with distance reader!

and regarding templates: We took a lot of empty bases and glued them together on a movement tray. And when someone fires away with a template we put it on the tray with empty bases.

boli
23-01-2014, 09:14
This is how we play it:

If you can see any part of the model/unit you are shooting at - you can shoot at it.

-2 if most of the model/unit is obscured
-1 if only part of it is.
-1 if the TLoS passes through a woodland
combined these rules cannot be more than -2

This ofc is at the model's eye level; which was really annoying as my dwarves couldn't fire past my (taller) phoenix guard for the majority of my last game!


Saves a lot of arguments in the long run keeping it this simple.

forseer of fates
23-01-2014, 13:39
That's how the rulebook tells you how to play it:/

orionwoodking
23-01-2014, 22:55
See my biggest problem with all of this is Tomb Kings, whose archers do not receive any modifiers to their shooting.

forseer of fates
23-01-2014, 23:25
NO body cares about tombkings not getting -2 to shoot through other units, they still fall over like a wet brush

Piercefierce
26-01-2014, 00:19
Think about it. Can you really not see 200 meters with 40 people in front of you? of course you can. Well i know i used to be able to make people out on the other side of a playground with hundreds of people in the way.

Wesser
28-01-2014, 06:15
Think about it. Can you really not see 200 meters with 40 people in front of you? of course you can. Well i know i used to be able to make people out on the other side of a playground with hundreds of people in the way.

Ehm what kind of example is that?

Try something like a concert instead. Unless you or those you are trying to spot are on some kind of elevation (such as the stage) you'll struggle to see 10 meters.

That's what TLOS is to me. I stand at the back of a Slayer Concert and is pretty pissed at someone in the very front, so I take my crossbow and shoot a bolt straight through 200 densely packed ranks of people to hit him in the back.......

Artinam
28-01-2014, 10:06
Suffering a -2 to hit penalty because of heavy cover making it quite unlikely that you hit him :P

iamjack42
28-01-2014, 11:14
Ehm what kind of example is that?

Try something like a concert instead. Unless you or those you are trying to spot are on some kind of elevation (such as the stage) you'll struggle to see 10 meters.

That's what TLOS is to me. I stand at the back of a Slayer Concert and is pretty pissed at someone in the very front, so I take my crossbow and shoot a bolt straight through 200 densely packed ranks of people to hit him in the back.......

You must play some pretty damn big games . . . and have some extraordinarily long-ranged crossbows.

Wesser
28-01-2014, 21:33
You must play some pretty damn big games . . . and have some extraordinarily long-ranged crossbows.

Argh my own fault for making a RL example to compare with the tabletop... it confuses people....

shakedown47
30-01-2014, 14:42
Argh my own fault for making a RL example to compare with the tabletop... it confuses people....
Logic and common sense has no place on the internet or these forums. Get it right next time or we'll petition to have your account blocked.

Mc1gamer
30-01-2014, 16:10
Penalties to shooting that includes them is easier. Those warmachines that only require TLOS and artillery dice are the main issue. And NO, I don't feel that seeing thru the legs of ranked troops or cavalry is in the spirit of TLOS. The rule book states that the combats are fluid, troops are moving about. Even if at that instant, the shooter can see thru that tiny hole, time isn't at a standstill and with troops forming, reforming, marching, charging, etc, that line of sight should result in that cannon blasting thru those troops, not over them. Sorry, this isn't a lobbed grenage (well maybe with mortars), its cannon shoot. There is elevation and decent, but the shots don't arc over troops that way. The TLOS is showing the trajectory in addition to the targeting. Its rather cheezy to line up a unit in front of a cannon at the same level, and have it sit there with impunity to screen it while said cannon shoots 'over' that unit. I call BS. Between units, with a line obviously not populated by a model, however small (1 inch min I guess), sure! But right thru a unit at same elevation, bogus. That's why this rule is BS. Yes, if we are spending alot of time on it, we are doing something wrong.....but I completely disagree that its the PLAYER's fault. We were given a rule that has problems on a number of levels, and it precipitates the conversation. I can only hope its either changed, fleshed out or at least clarified, in 9th. Until then....