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Jind_Singh
22-01-2014, 06:42
Greetings all!

I'm a GW player now for 26 years and have played pretty much all their games since then...

Epic
Warhammer
40k
Warmaster
Man of War
Lord of the Rings
War of the Rings

And over the last 2.5 decades I've had a fantastic time - would even happily consider myself a GW Fanbois - and I still have the bug harder than ever!

2013 was, perhaps, the best year ever for me in terms of the sheer number of releases, expansions, models - so you can imagine my surprise when I saw that GW had one of their WORST years!

So the question is...

Did WE do it?

Has the fundamentals of the round based game changed too much in the new edition that it's turned too many players off?

It's hard for me to see - as at my GW the game is stronger than ever, lots of players, everyone's bought into the new books/expansions and we see games of apoc, stronghold assualt, and esclation - as well as 40k, but when I see sign up sheets for the bigger tournaments it's a different landscape - from an event that sold out in weeks to now - seats been handed over to Warhammer!

Did the introduction of the new expansions act as a killing blow to what was a struggling edition?

If this is the case can the players who DON'T like the new 40k explain why?

What's turned you away?

For worldwide 40k has always been the darling of GW - it's the cash cow - but has the milk soured?

NerZuhl
22-01-2014, 06:57
Really? You want the community to take responsibility for the poor performance of the company?

That is in jest right?

Economy sucks.
Competition is stronger than it has been in the past.
GW made several fumbles.
The disaster that is The Hobbit.

So no, it isn't our fault. We are the customers, the responsibility of a companies success lies squarely on the company.

EDIT: GW is still a profitable company. Only a second consecutive negative earnings report will spell disaster.

The reason I don't support GW is because the product they offer is of sub standard quality. Their models are great, but their rules are very lack luster. They contain too many errors and holes to be worth the money they ask for. And GW is seeking to earn profits off of their rules, rules that are of a low quality standard. It is as simple as that. As a customer, I no longer see value.
I still will use the models I have, and acquire rules from secondary sources. Should the quality of their product increase, I will happily return to giving them my money.

Jind_Singh
22-01-2014, 07:02
RESPONSE not Responsibility!

Our response to the new ed - perhaps it's too much and it's turned players away - if the game systems not floating your boat all of a sudden the price point of the hobby is not so easy to ignore and people walk away.

I am not saying we're responsible - ultimately it'd be the company if the current 40k is not working.

I'm curious to see if this is the case - as I mentioned in the OP it's hard for me to see it as locally it seems to be doing fine OTHER THAN tournaments.

I wanted to hear the view of players outside my game zone to see if it's the game that's turning players away in droves

- Essentially if the game is not keeping the crowd happy, they don't buy.

- If 40k gamers are not as inclined to splurge their money as they were previously the cash cow gets sick

- Hence 40k gamers are essentially defeating GW as it is by far the best selling range/game for the company


I'm just trying to see what the general consensus is on the current state of 40k from players, not asking you to take responsibility for anything

NerZuhl
22-01-2014, 07:07
RESPONSE not Responsibility!

Our response to the new ed - perhaps it's too much and it's turned players away - if the game systems not floating your boat all of a sudden the price point of the hobby is not so easy to ignore and people walk away.

I am not saying we're responsible - ultimately it'd be the company if the current 40k is not working.

I'm curious to see if this is the case - as I mentioned in the OP it's hard for me to see it as locally it seems to be doing fine OTHER THAN tournaments.

I wanted to hear the view of players outside my game zone to see if it's the game that's turning players away in droves

- Essentially if the game is not keeping the crowd happy, they don't buy.

- If 40k gamers are not as inclined to splurge their money as they were previously the cash cow gets sick

- Hence 40k gamers are essentially defeating GW as it is by far the best selling range/game for the company


I'm just trying to see what the general consensus is on the current state of 40k from players, not asking you to take responsibility for anything

I see, your question "Did WE do it?" is what miss lead me. As did the title of your post. Both of these indicate responsibility for the decline that has occurred.

ehlijen
22-01-2014, 07:19
There is some blame to be put on customers for letting GW get this complacent. By far not all, not even close, but some is our own fault.

Who kept buying after each price increase thus not letting GW feel the pain they were so actively courting till now? Profits had stayed stable for them for a while despite horrendous increases, which means enough people kept buying for GW not to feel the need to stop that plan just yet. It's their own fault for going that path, but it's us buying that let them follow it for so long.

Players kept buying the new powerful books and toys, shunning those that tried to put game balance first. 4th ed Dark Angels were simplistic, but an attempt to reign in codex creep. Codex SW sold worlds better because it gave us over the top units and powers. GW learned that powerful books sell better than those in line with the existing power level and kept doing that. Because we told them that's what we'd rather buy.

Again, GW is to blame for its own creations and the failures thereof, of course. But we can't blame anyone but ourselves for our buying decisions and what those decisions signalled to GW. It's a shared blame.

duffybear1988
22-01-2014, 08:49
Here's what I like about 6th edition -

1) Allies - the idea is good in principle.
2) Warlord traits - the idea is good in principle.
3) Formations - good idea for variation.
4) Missions - slightly more variation than 5th.

Here's what I dislike -

1) Allies - poorly executed which leaves it open to abuse.
2) Warlord traits - again poorly executed with some being much better than others. personally I would have changed the way the roll works so we roll for the chart and then are allowed to pick a trait from that chart.
3) Heavy vehicles - the only ones we have are monoliths and russes and both ended up slightly weaker which didn't need to happen.
4) Missions - too generic and bland. This is supposed to be the fun edition that's cinematic but I feel just as bored playing these as I did playing 5th ed.
5) Challenges - stupid rule that's tacked on for 'cinematic value'. In reality most people who use it are power gamers.
6) Look out sir! - another stupid rule that has done nothing but cause frustration and confusion. A tacked on rule that doesn't need to be there.
7) Flyers - as skimmers they were ok. On a battlefield this small they just don't work and it looks stupid having an air war over a patch of dirt the size of an Asda car park. Plus the rules are clunky and the units themselves vary in utility and price.
8) Formations - again something I like in principle but these have been poorly executed so far. Most of them could have been really well done with just another 30 minutes of work. As they are they come across as a half baked idea that needs work... lots of work.
9) Balance - this edition is terrible for balance. It should be possible for people to use the units they like and still have a reasonable chance of winning. The game needs restrictions to function well.
10) Super heavies - keep them for Apocalypse. That way there's actually a reason to play Apoc! Comes across as a blatant cash grab because they are failing elsewhere.
11) Random psychic powers - if they have to be random at least make them all equally useful. Personally I don't see why they needed to be random in the first place.
12) Vehicle damage - needs work.
13) Random everything.

And that's pretty much what puts me off playing for the most part. They had a couple of good ideas which were poorly executed, whilst the rest of the edition is so unbalanced that it's not actually fun to play anymore. I don't want to create a narrative driven battle most of the time. Even if I did I wouldn't need GW to tell me how to do it. What I would like is a carefully written, balanced and play tested set of rules where everyone has an equal footing (that doesn't require house rules, power gaming, asking politely for opponent to weaken list).

Personally if they took 4th edition and updated it, then mixed in some reworked flyer rules, warlord traits and formations it would be perfect. Of course half the problem stems from the inadequacy of some of the codex writers so they would have to be put into line! I look at it this way - when fan work is more fun and balanced than the expensive professional work something has to be wrong with the company.

Graystoak
22-01-2014, 08:55
Surely as a company who produce 'Games' the responsibility to keep things balanced, fair, sporting or however you want to word it, lies with the company? You can't blame the players who want to win a game for taking every advantage offered.

I've also been playing/collecting for around 25 yeas now and I have noticed within my gaming group that GW love has reached an all time low. I believe this is for two reasons which ultimately stem from the same reason. Others have already mentioned the two issues - game balance and price rises. Both these factors can be attributed to company greed. The price rises for obvious reasons and the 'codex creep' which is essentially driven by a desire to sell more product.

I've been saying for years that GW charge unreasonably for their products and although others within my group have opposed me they are all now saying things have gone too far. As for game play, there is a horrendous imbalance between and within Codex's now, not to mention that the flood gates have been opened to every rule ever thought up. The result? Most games end on a discussion about how one unit/army sucks and how this unit or that fortification is awesome.

How this has affected my gaming group is that those who are predominantly gamers are buying anything that doesn't have a GW logo on it and those who are predominantly modellers/painters (myself included), are buying our GW models 2nd hand, swapping and selling old models in an attempt to keep our cash out of the stores.

I'm currently building an Eldar army and so far haven't spent a single penny on it. I swapped the bulk of it for a Beastmen army with one of my gaming buddies and have used the money from stuff I've sold on eBay to buy the things I want 2nd hand also in eBay. This is my personal contribution to sending a message back that the customer is not prepared to pay £21 for 5 Dire Avengers or whatever the hell they're charging now!

Whether or not there will be anyone prepared to play an actual game of 40k by the time I've built this army is another question...

Denny
22-01-2014, 09:01
My gaming group seems to be paying less.

I THINK this is due to a combination of work, personal stuff, various other committments rather than any problem with 6th . . . but maybe if we're making less of an effort to play that in some way reflects on the game?

I dunno, I like 6th. 5th was fine too, but I think I like 6th more.

YMMV.

Cheeslord
22-01-2014, 09:24
My gaming group stopped playing 40k last year due to dislike of 6th edition rules (recent poor codex releases have also been a factor).

I am glad to see we have brought the Evil Corporation to its Knees!

Seriously though, I get the impression that most people, when frustrated by a ruleset or codex, compensate by going out and buying a different GW army or switching to a different GW game, as most players consider their hobby to be "Warhammer" rather than "wargaming", so I would be surprised if its anything other than a blip (or possibly investment. I havent looked at the accounts - maybe they just bought a plastics factory or something...). I'm pretty sure I have heard that GW rules writing types have come out and said that they are not too concerned about the rules/balance as the hobby is more about Beer/pizza/roleplaying/cinematic moments/model collecting/socialising/narrative/painting.

<edit> profits down from 10 million to 7 million. They are hardly hurting, really... </edit>

Mark.

bork da basher
22-01-2014, 09:45
if sales are down its because GW has priced a huge part of their player base out of the market. it's as simple as that. prices are so high people won't or can't sustain the amount they were previously buying or are simply so sick of GW in general that they leave altogether.

i've played 40k since 2nd edition and been in the hobby 20 years myself. the game is what it is, i personally think the game has got better as time has gone on, i don't like a lot of things about the rules but no edition i've played has ever been perfect. all the expansions mean nothing to me because i think they are a fly by night moneygrab designed to rope the WAAC players into buying a bunch of super heavies and then realising in fact no one wants to play titans and die on turn 2 so they stop using them.

GW management are in the process of slowly drawing a razor across their own throat, they haven't quite reached the jugular yet but i can forsee them doing something incredibly stupid in their near future that will finally alienate them from the players entirely.

for those who remember Rackham the french miniatures company a few years ago, they made the BEST models ever produced IMO. an amazing range of figures and a superb set of games based around them, but some bright spark in management decided it would be better to scrap their entire range and produce cheap chinese produced plastic PRE PAINTED versions of the same miniatures that were about 50% more expensive to accompany a game that was so badly written and conceived it was unplayable. it was business suicide trying to make a bigger profit. it failed miserably. it was the saddest day in my personal wargaming life. GW will sooner or later do something similar and the faster they lose money they sooner it'll happen.

MrZakalwe
22-01-2014, 10:02
I've moved to other wargames myself as I hate overt randomness.

There needs to be some randomness so everything isn't predetermined but it's just gone too far and takes too much control out of the hands of the player and that kind of defeats the object of playing.

Random charges?
Random psychic powers?
Random warlord traits (some of which are completely unsuitable)?

These are annoying but nothing compared to this last one. Now before I start this rant I'll say it isn't new but previously there was little competition so it didn;t look as bad as it does now...

No balance fixes or FAQs between books (which can be years)- they print a book, leave something completely broken and abusable in it then just leave it there sometimes for years. Other games companies have shown that updates and FAQs are relatively easy to do so it's just laziness and hubris on GWs part that means they do not do it.

Also flyers.

Add in the fact a decent sized army will now cost me the equivalent of two months rent...

budman
22-01-2014, 10:04
<edit> profits down from 10 million to 7 million. They are hardly hurting, really... </edit>

it's not us profits 30% down shares 25% down
That Is Real hurt to a company on the stock market

fact is gw are being hit on all sides
1 computer games get more immersive with less effort
2 top quality painted mini are cheaper on ebay than boxedfrom gw
3 hobbit as good as it was a flop and was competition withit’s own other line Warhammer and it made Warhammer look badly out of date
4 there is more competition out there than in a long time andthey have all learned from gw how to do things
5 gw now does 2.1 things 1st 40K 2nd fantasy2.1nd slightly not quite the same fantasy. No diversity of product line and letbe fair here 40K is very 80’s and 90’s and games of my age are on the nostalgiahook and that means less new kids getting in to the game
6 Gw has pumped out so much stuff than this year the gamehas moved fast than most gamers can keep up
Does everyone use all the supplements and data slates – mostgroups are banning them
7 talking of this now we have everything being put on lineyou can bet that any book gw has out free copies are on “sharing” sites and at gw prices normal anti pirate guys Ispeak you are tempted

profits 30% down shares 25% down It’s shock to the systemthat makes them double down on the path they are on or change the bets they aremaking

Latro_
22-01-2014, 10:16
http://uk.finance.yahoo.com/echarts?s=GAW.L#symbol=gaw.l;range=my;compare=;ind icator=volume;charttype=area;crosshair=on;ohlcvalu es=0;logscale=off;source=undefined;
click on [max]

GW stock has historically peaked and dropped...

In 4 years it'll likely be high again, then drop and this post will be recreated...

repeat

forever

bleh

Zingraff
22-01-2014, 10:18
I don't understand the idea behind the pricing policy for rulebooks. Surely a Gillette type "razor and blades" business model would be better suited than what GW is currently doing. I believe that if they began selling their rulebooks for less than they do now, or even at a loss, it would help improve the sales of their miniatures and even promote the sales of miniatures some buyers wouldn't normally consider picking up.

The way things stand today, as someone who has already decided to play Imperial Guard, it would never occur to me to purchase any other Codex. They cost too much and I would have no need of them. I'd rather spend that same amount of money on a handful of guardsmen. However if the books cost considerably less than they do today, I might have bought one or two on impulse and soon enough I might have started on a new army.

Same thing goes for White Dwarf. Now that WD has been reduced to just being a catalogue of adverts, it would almost make more sense if it was given away for free.

budman
22-01-2014, 10:23
http://uk.finance.yahoo.com/echarts?s=GAW.L#symbol=gaw.l;range=my;compare=;ind icator=volume;charttype=area;crosshair=on;ohlcvalu es=0;logscale=off;source=undefined;
click on [max]

GW stock has historically peaked and dropped...

In 4 years it'll likely be high again, then drop and this post will be recreated...

repeat

forever

bleh

stocks rise and fall it's what they do
however a 25% fall and then it does not bounce back is very very bad

Telemachus
22-01-2014, 10:53
Did we defeat 40k? No.

And funnily enough, neither have any of the other companies out there.

Mantic Games (http://companycheck.co.uk/company/06770093)

Warlord Games (http://companycheck.co.uk/company/06400769/WARLORD-GAMES-LIMITED)

Battlefront Miniatures (http://companycheck.co.uk/company/05905987/BATTLEFRONT-MINIATURES-EUROPE-LIMITED)

Spartan Games (http://companycheck.co.uk/company/04496330/REBEL-PUBLISHING-LTD)

If you've bothered to have a look through that lot, take a look at this -

Games Workshop (http://companycheck.co.uk/company/02670969)

As an aside, one of the biggest Investment Management Companies in the UK has just purchased a 5% share in Games Workshop. I don't think they'd throw their money into a dying cause.

Spiney Norman
22-01-2014, 11:08
I don't think you can say we have 'defeated' GW, I'm not quite so cynical that I think GW is constantly battling against its customer base. It might be better to say that we the customers have finally successfully communicated our dissatisfaction over GW's pricing model by impacting their balance sheets, but as most of the discussion here demonstrates, its by no means a certain that the consumer base is responsible for the drop in profits.

=Angel=
22-01-2014, 11:29
What the customers wanted:
Flexible codexes and army books that could represent variant armies from the background. (legions, chapters, guard doctrines, craftworlds,
Useful units- no damp squibs. No unit should be only worth taking for fluff purposes, no unit should feel like a tax.
Game balance (not absolute balance, but internal codex balance and general balance of the game)
To feel cared about- to have a dialogue with GW and feel a part of something. Communication.

What we got
Ruinous litigation of fan sites and rumours sites and third party models.
Clamping down of rumour leaks- all we got was spin , less real communication
Finecast
Flyers shoved into a 28mm battle/skirmish game
Pricey datasheets and formations- which actually expand the game and provide variance to the codexs and armylists but do so in a very hamfisted way. score 1 point, kind of.
Codex Space Marines- a great codex with usable chapter traits. Score 1 more point- but gain greivance points because no other codex got this. it's literally one page front and back in the codex- legion players would have been thrilled with this.

We, the customers should not be blamed when we are given stuff we didnt ask for.

Ironbone
22-01-2014, 11:36
I don't think they'd throw their money into a dying cause.
Who knows ? Economists showed ability to make way bigger mistakes :p.


9) Balance - this edition is terrible for balance. It should be possible for people to use the units they like and still have a reasonable chance of winning. The game needs restrictions to function well.
Personaly I still think 6th ed is better balanced than late 5th, when omidominance of (un)holy trinity of GK/SW/BA truly ruined the game. Core RB have many wrongs and idiocies, but as always, it's the codexes that make people cry ( PG with joy, rest with grief ), and are source of game-breaking.

Minsc
22-01-2014, 11:52
There are afew external factors, but then add in the internal factos, and you realize that GW kinda defeated themselves.

1) Yearly pricehikes on plastic. This hobby is twice as expensive now as when it was when I started 10 years ago. Not much else is.
2) Unbalanced rules in both 40k and WFB. Some players work around it (comp/friendly environment), some just get fed up and quit.
3) Finecast doesn't live up to it's namesake.

Ratbeast
22-01-2014, 12:08
The are screwing over australia and the southern hemisphere with their embargos

alot of oceanic players have moved on

ehlijen
22-01-2014, 12:15
What the customers wanted:
Flexible codexes and army books that could represent variant armies from the background. (legions, chapters, guard doctrines, craftworlds,
Useful units- no damp squibs. No unit should be only worth taking for fluff purposes, no unit should feel like a tax.
Game balance (not absolute balance, but internal codex balance and general balance of the game)
To feel cared about- to have a dialogue with GW and feel a part of something. Communication.


That may be what the customers said they wanted. What they bought was:
-Latest power codices
-Latest power units from power codices
-SCs and supplements that would let them bring the most powerful units as troops to get around being 'taxed' with other units

Supplements, codices and other rules that didn't give our favourite army extra power were decried as 'poor efforts'.

GW doesn't care what we say we want on the internet if we end up buying something else instead.

Minsc
22-01-2014, 12:32
There are afew external factors, but then add in the internal factos, and you realize that GW kinda defeated themselves.

1) Yearly pricehikes on plastic. This hobby is twice as expensive now as when it was when I started 10 years ago. Not much else is.
2) Unbalanced rules in both 40k and WFB. Some players work around it (comp/friendly environment), some just get fed up and quit.
3) Finecast doesn't live up to it's namesake.

Ah yes, i can add that.

4) Not giving a crap about their customers. There is absolutely no dialogue between GW and their customers.

williamsond
22-01-2014, 12:39
For me its was the apearence of money grabbing practices (real or imagined) and the way as a long time player of 26 years I feel like they are *********** up my back and trying to convince me it's raining. They have taken the wonder and creativity away from the development department and handcuffed them to the marketing department. we're now paying for stuff that 5 years ago would have been free articles in white dwarf. all this has led to a decrease in my gw purchases (ebay mostley these days) and a move to new games like Xwing and Saga.

Nkari
22-01-2014, 12:58
GW is to big for its shoes, the management and decition makers have no touch with the player base, no disscussions at all, I mean seriously, how hard is it to have a "weekly" FAQ session, where you have a moderator flipping questions sent in via chat to say, a 40k dev, heck, more regular rules FAQ updates, and logistics to handle that, give the "sorting the questions" job to a unemployed nut, that gets minimum wage, and all his job is to sort the incoming FAQ's and compile a list each week, , and after a year or two, he can even do the answering. Srsly, GW could take so much more care about their customers, but they are all about "top down" sort of a buisness model, with yearly price hikes, that is higher than the inflation AND the price of oil, there is NO justification for price hikes like that, all they do with the price hikes, is diminishing their sales volume, wich have steadily declined for the past 10 years or so.

I still buy GW stuff, but not nearly as much as I did before, because today, adding a new unit to a army, is a huge investment for me. But my gaming club, of 15 ppl, have moved away from GW compleatly and into warmachine, malifux, and heavy gear blitz, because they dont find the GW games entertaining anylonger. Its sad really, cause everyone has atleast 1 army for both fantasy and 40k, of about 3000+ pts each, but they just hate what has become of the rules, price, attitude of GW..

yes this looks like a rant.. smells like a rant, etc etc.. and it probably is.. But I and many others feels dissconected from GW, we still buy some of the beautiful models they release, but there are no longer any "impulse" buys, because of the price.

It feels like the higher ups in GW just listen to sales ppl, who have no clue how to run a thriving hobby company, and if they hear anything that doesnt sound like the sales ppl, they cover their ears and go "lalalalalalalalalalalalalalala!".

Telemachus
22-01-2014, 13:20
I'm curious, can someone tell me what multi-million pound, multi-national companies do the things that people are expecting GW to do? There are some seriously unrealistic expectations being expressed here.

If you're all that unhappy with GW, try this (http://www.kickstarter.com/).

Then you get to write the rules and produce the minis you want to see.

Cheeslord
22-01-2014, 13:30
The are screwing over australia and the southern hemisphere with their embargos

alot of oceanic players have moved on

I've never really understood this. While most big companies try fixing the price of their products by region (so they can sell for the highest price the locals are prepared to pay), I've never thought of Australia as being massively more wealthy that western europe, so why fix them on a higher enough tarriff that they need to explicitly ban trade there? If they are making more money out of Australians than anywhere else why not hike prices globally? I can understand if, say, they wanted to sell in India, Africa or south America at a lower price they would then have to ban the local agents there from shipping back to other countries and undercutting, but this just seems to annoy people for no reason...

Mark.

IcedCrow
22-01-2014, 13:40
The new edition where I'm from exponentially increased our player base, not ran it off.

The new edition where I'm from did run off a lot of the competitive tournament guys to other games yes, but they were not the majority of the player base. The internet seems to indicate otherwise but without a global poll it would be hard to tell. I know from past polls that the competitive only guys numbered around 25% of the total polling community anyway, for whatever that's worth.

So did the new edition defeat Games Workshop? From where I'm standing, with 5x more players than we've ever had here, I'd say the new edition did what it needed to do.

It isn't the new edition that I think is the issue. Its the prices. For every 10 new players that we recruit, 8 of them are getting their armies second hand, 1 of them is hybriding new purchases from retail with second hand, and 1 of them is primarily retail.

Those numbers are to me why GW is being 'defeated'. The rules aren't it, despite the loud echo chamber that are internet forums. (not saying the rules are a paragon of virtue and balance either i'm saying a lot of people recognize the issues with the rules but that does not run them off from the game). A buy in cost of about $500 for a new player is where we were in 2000 and that I think is not an unrealistic number. The buy in now is roughly $900 on average and I think that that is ultimately what runs most new players off, and that's because they don't realize there is a massive 2nd hand market where they can get models for cheap. A lot of our new players (and by a lot I mean nearly all) would have turned away if they had to do full retail but were shown that ebay and discounts exist elsewhere as well as alternative models.

This is also now coupled with other miniatures companies coming up. However, I've still not seen any real game come out that challenges 40k for the scale 40k is set at... its usually all low model count games where the models are roughly equivalent in price to GW but you only need 10-20 models max.

Minsc
22-01-2014, 13:51
I'm curious, can someone tell me what multi-million pound, multi-national companies do the things that people are expecting GW to do? There are some seriously unrealistic expectations being expressed here.

I'm sure there are many, but just to mention one...hmm...Blizzard Entertainment?

1) They haven't really increased the monthly fee for playing since I started in 2005. Counting for inflation, the prices has technically dropped.
2) They are better at keeping balance between classes in PvE (and to some extent PvP), because unlike GW they at least try.
3) - (Irrelevant)
4) They care about what their players think more than some realize. They let players beta-test their incoming patches/expansions before release, and they have employees who's main duty is to have dialogue with the playerbase.

Now Blizzard is far from a Goody-Two-Shoes company, but next to Games Workshop, they look like a saint.


The new edition where I'm from exponentially increased our player base, not ran it off.

This is differs from club to club I'd say.

My club is far from competitive, but we've been steadily loosing members since 4th.
I don't remember how many active 40k-players we had in 4th (maybe 30-35?), but in 5th I'd estimate we had ~20 active or semi-active players.
As of today, we have ~10, and half of these have started playing other sci-fi miniature-games in addition to 40k, which has lead to 40k being a side-activity rather than the main game.

And let's not even talk about WFB: From being the maingame afew years ago to being basically extinct.

Sephillion
22-01-2014, 13:53
I don't know, I like 6th better than 5th and never played previous editions; but in 2013, I mostly bought stuff for my DA army, aside from that, no releases got sales from me (apart from some codices).

Theocracity
22-01-2014, 14:32
I know the its a popular solipsism around here to think that the fanbase's personal issues with GW directly impacted their profits, but has anyone considered that there might be a business reason for it?

GW spent all last year hugely ramping up their process and output - the kind of hectic work you'd do if you were trying to show an investor that you were a vital company who'd make a good candidate for a buyout.

The problem comes when they don't get bought out, and all that money they were expensing for their improved output has to be put on next year's balance sheet. Thus a profitability decline.

I'm not saying that's necessarily the reason for it, or the only reason for it. But I'm amused how quickly people around here use any piece of data to jump on their favorite hobby horses.

Telemachus
22-01-2014, 14:52
I'm sure there are many, but just to mention one...hmm...Blizzard Entertainment? Fair enough, there's one company, or is there?

...They haven't really increased the monthly fee for playing since I started in 2005. Counting for inflation, the prices has technically dropped. - So the price of paying for the privilege of accessing one of their servers has remained more or less stable? I should hope so, and although I'm not too happy at the cost of the hobby, at least with GW their price increases on miniatures have been for things you can actually own, build, paint, play with and stand on the next time you throw a tantrum at the latest codex release.

2) They are better at keeping balance between classes in PvE (and to some extent PvP), because unlike GW they at least try. - This makes me laugh. No-one at GW is forcing you to use their rules (unless you go to one of their events); in fact they actively push the onus of how the game should be played back onto the players, which gives you a freedom of interpretation that WoW, for instance, doesn't.

3) - (Irrelevant) - I agree with this, the least said about Finecast, the better.

4) They care about what their players think more than some realize. - So do GW.

They let players beta-test their incoming patches/expansions before release... - And how realistic a possibility is that with a codex? You're comparing a closed session digital game with a tabletop game. The only way this could ever happen is if they invited players to Nottingham to beta test codices.

...and they have employees who's main duty is to have dialogue with the playerbase. - Have you ever had cause to call GW's Customer Service Department? In any (and that's not a lot) of the dealings I've had with them, they've been superb.

Now Blizzard is far from a Goody-Two-Shoes company, but next to Games Workshop, they look like a saint...

From where I'm sitting, the problems such as Rules, miniatures etc. that people are constantly moaning about are problems that they've invented themselves through what they think the game should be like.

There are valid gripes, pricing is one of them. The cost of the hobby in Australia etc. is another, but for every valid one, there's at least one other that has been made up because someone doesn't like x rule in y codex.

HereComesTomorrow
22-01-2014, 15:04
I'm curious, can someone tell me what multi-million pound, multi-national companies do the things that people are expecting GW to do? There are some seriously unrealistic expectations being expressed here.

If you're all that unhappy with GW, try this (http://www.kickstarter.com/).

Then you get to write the rules and produce the minis you want to see.

Like...all of them?
GW isn't that big of a company compared to some others, but even billion doller companies have a Twitter feed.

Look at Privateer Press. They have amazing customer service and contact with the community. I'm aware that GW used to have a forum and it removed apparently because of all the negativity on it. That says a lot. They got critized and rather than try to fix peoples issues, they just blocked them out.

Imagine what it would be like if the designers had to actually own up to their screw ups or bad balance? Would Cruddace have half assed the Nid book as much if he had to explain to us why pyrovores are still terrible? I doubt it.

GW designers have zero feedback from the people using their rules and zero acountability because they're hidden away from us and wrapped up in an ivory tower hug box.

Telemachus
22-01-2014, 15:21
Like...all of them?
GW isn't that big of a company compared to some others, but even billion doller companies have a Twitter feed.

Look at Privateer Press. They have amazing customer service and contact with the community. I'm aware that GW used to have a forum and it removed apparently because of all the negativity on it. That says a lot. They got critized and

Imagine what it would be like if the designers had to actually own up to their screw ups or bad balance? Would Cruddace have half assed the Nid book as much if he had to explain to us why pyrovores are still terrible? I doubt it.

GW designers have zero feedback from the people using their rules and zero acountability because they're hidden away from us and wrapped up in an ivory tower hug box. So all of these big massive companies re-write the rules and background material of their games because some of their customers think that they could do a better job?

Do Privateer Press do it?

I don't think so; what these companies do is a better job of listening with a smile on their faces and then continuing to do what they want to do anyway.

Horus38
22-01-2014, 15:36
I'm sure there are many, but just to mention one...hmm...Blizzard Entertainment?
...
Now Blizzard is far from a Goody-Two-Shoes company, but next to Games Workshop, they look like a saint.

A good comparison! But I still got a laugh because the amount of b***ing and moaning that comes out of that community makes GW look like a saint! :angel:

Theocracity
22-01-2014, 15:49
A good comparison! But I still got a laugh because the amount of b***ing and moaning that comes out of that community makes GW look like a saint! :angel:

Ha, yeah. Anyone who thinks that Blizzard makes their forum-frequenting fanbase happier than GW's forum-frequenting fanbase clearly has never visited Blizzard's forums.

Gradek
22-01-2014, 15:56
I would argue that several factors have contributed/are contributing to this year's decline, but that (at this point) it is hardly that concerning. First, GW's revenue estimate for this year is roughly what they made in 2010 and 2011, so it is hardly a collapse. Second, GW's margins are still fairly strong and the company is still very profitable (its not like they are on the way out or anything). Having said that, the following are where I think they are hurting from a business perspective:

1) Limitations of product carried by independent retailers (this is a huge problem). The relatively recent policy of GW moving much more product to direct sales only has likely had (and will continue to have) a big impact on the growth of the player base (probably more than price) because independent retailers simply are not going to promote a game whose products they cannot sell (I have witnessed this first hand). It is these retailers who essentially provide a (relatively) free sales team for GW and they effectively shut that promotional tool off with the direct sales approach.

2) The limited availability of the product outside of "known circles". By not having the starter sets in non-hobby stores (ie the Targets/Walmarts/Toys R Us/etc) of the world, the game's growth is limited to those that know (ie gamers) and people that go into a game store (see problem #1).

3) Rules pricing/availability. If GW truly is a miniatures company as they state AND they make most of their profits from selling miniatures, then the pricing of the army books makes no sense whatsoever (ideally these would be a loss leader like a Keurig machine). While I love the composition/quality of the army books/rules, it might make business sense to give away (or almost give away) the rules (not the fluff/pics) if in fact the money is in the minis (ie if GW makes say $20 on a $50 kit, but only $10 on a $50 army book, then giving away the rules could make you an extra $10 (assuming the consumer is going to spend that $50 with you regardless).

4) Not pushing smaller games enough (#3 comes into play here as well). 40k actually can work fine (and be fun) using the normal rules but with say 500 points (an HQ, 2-5 man tactical squads, a termie squad, and a vehicle). You could theoretically get that army for say $170 (GW prices), but between GW not promoting those size games AND the sunk rules cost of likely $120 minimum, this market may be lost.

5) 40k balance/"competitive" gamers. I actually think this is a lesser problem from a business perspective to the 4 above, but it likely is going to have some impact on the existing base. Some people will spend/have the money to spend on whatever the newest/most powerful army is, but many players do not/will not. Thus, when balance gets too far out of place you can end up with a situation in which the existing (non-taudar) base decides the game isn't as fun anymore and backs off purchases (some may come back with the next rules change, others move on for good). If in fact (as GW has repeatedly stated) the target GW consumer is more of a "beer and pretzels" player this shouldn't be a problem though.

HereComesTomorrow
22-01-2014, 15:56
So all of these big massive companies re-write the rules and background material of their games because some of their customers think that they could do a better job?

Do Privateer Press do it?

I don't think so; what these companies do is a better job of listening with a smile on their faces and then continuing to do what they want to do anyway.

Actuallt, from what I know of PP, their rules are clear, leave little to no room for RAW or RAI arguments and people are generally happy with the rules because player skill counts for as much as your list. I'm not saying PP is a perfect company, just that they're a good example of how a warhames manufacturer should interact with their player base.

It could be argued that this is because the designers actually have to interact with the community.

I'm curious as to why your defending GW so much though? I can't believe for a second that you think the way they treat their players is acceptable.

Minsc
22-01-2014, 15:58
A good comparison! But I still got a laugh because the amount of b***ing and moaning that comes out of that community makes GW look like a saint! :angel:

Way more people play WoW than 40k/WFB/LotR, and the average age is lower - so there's no doubt that the amount of whining on their forums are worse. :P
(Although I will say that Warseer can during it's whinefest-peaks, give the WoW-forums a run for their money...)

Ssilmath
22-01-2014, 16:07
Actuallt, from what I know of PP, their rules are clear, leave little to no room for RAW or RAI arguments and people are generally happy with the rules because player skill counts for as much as your list. I'm not saying PP is a perfect company, just that they're a good example of how a warhames manufacturer should interact with their player base.

It could be argued that this is because the designers actually have to interact with the community.

I'm curious as to why your defending GW so much though? I can't believe for a second that you think the way they treat their players is acceptable.

Well, your mileage may vary but I pretty much disagree. There are lots of rules questions, some of which will go a long time on their forum before being answered. The rules definitely have a lot more wriggle than people like to preach, though they are at least a bit more consistently worded.

As for player skill...Eh. Just looking at army lists, the table terrain and deployment, I could predict not just the winner but also how they would win and with what. Player skill does still count, but their internal and external balance is still pretty mediocre.

Developers do interact with the community at times, but not in depth nor do they really seem to care much about the players desires. Granted, the Mark 2 playtest was a very good thing but even that was marred by people sending feedback that buffed their favorite units and/or casters and some casters got through that are very clearly head and shoulders above others that should have been caught in the playtest.

Telemachus
22-01-2014, 16:16
Actuallt, from what I know of PP, their rules are clear, leave little to no room for RAW or RAI arguments and people are generally happy with the rules because player skill counts for as much as your list. I'm not saying PP is a perfect company, just that they're a good example of how a warhames manufacturer should interact with their player base... And that's why they had to release a 13 page rules errata (http://privateerpress.com/files/WM%20MKII%20Rules%20Errata%20Dec%202013.pdf) last month is it?


...It could be argued that this is because the designers actually have to interact with the community.

I'm curious as to why your defending GW so much though? I can't believe for a second that you think the way they treat their players is acceptable. Why am I defending GW so much? Well, the simple fact of the matter is that I'm not.

I just don't buy into all of the negativity that gets thrown about. I don't see it when I play games, yes people moan about the cost, but people moan about the cost of everything. The other thing is that I don't think that Games Workshop do treat people who play their games any better or any worse than any other games company out there, it's a matter of scale.

Grow Privateer Press or Mantic or any small games company you want to the same size as GW and I reckon, that the moaning that goes on about them would grow exponentially.

Vipoid
22-01-2014, 16:34
And that's why they had to release a 13 page rules errata (http://privateerpress.com/files/WM%20MKII%20Rules%20Errata%20Dec%202013.pdf) last month is it?

So, that's 13 pages of errata/faqs for Warmachine and Hordes books.

Not ideal, but let's compare that to GW:

Fantasy - 29 pages of faqs/errate
40k - 68 pages of faqs/errata

So, for the two warhammer systems, that's a total of almost 100 pages of errata and faqs. I think PP is still looking pretty good. :p

Telemachus
22-01-2014, 16:38
So, that's 13 pages of errata/faqs for Warmachine and Hordes books.

Not ideal, but let's compare that to GW:

Fantasy - 29 pages of faqs/errate
40k - 68 pages of faqs/errata

So, for the two warhammer systems, that's a total of almost 100 pages of errata and faqs. I think PP is still looking pretty good. :p Scale Warmachine and Hordes up to the size of 40k and Fantasy...

Theocracity
22-01-2014, 16:39
So, that's 13 pages of errata/faqs for Warmachine and Hordes books.

Not ideal, but let's compare that to GW:

Fantasy - 29 pages of faqs/errate
40k - 68 pages of faqs/errata

So, for the two warhammer systems, that's a total of almost 100 pages of errata and faqs. I think PP is still looking pretty good. :p

Out if curiosity, what's the proportional page count of all PP rules books vs GW rules books? That might give a more accurate view of which company is better on this subject.

Cheeslord
22-01-2014, 16:50
Whether a company has more or less errata/faq per page of rules/codices is not a very reliable measure of whether they write good rules or not. A company could have less errata/faq because they put more effort into writing good rules in the first place so they need less errata/faq, OR they could simply not bother doing errata/faq very much or addressing player concerns.

Mark.

Theocracity
22-01-2014, 16:54
Whether a company has more or less errata/faq per page of rules/codices is not a very reliable measure of whether they write good rules or not. A company could have less errata/faq because they put more effort into writing good rules in the first place so they need less errata/faq, OR they could simply not bother doing errata/faq very much or addressing player concerns.

Mark.

While you are technically correct that a measurement of FAQs per page count is not a very scientific method of determining quality, your examples don't leave much doubt about your preconceptions of its results ;).

DuskRaider
22-01-2014, 17:04
The fault lies solely with Games Workshop themselves. With their unbalanced, error ridden and prohibitively priced books along with the fact that they keep jacking prices up on their products, it's no wonder they're losing money. Many have stopped playing, others have turned to piracy. It's easy to get your hands on a digital scan of a codex these days, and it's a lot better than paying $50 for a book they don't even seem to bother editing, much less balancing with the rest of the game in mind (hi, Tau). It's much cheaper to get copies of GW models on eBay these days as well.

Gradek
22-01-2014, 19:09
The fault lies solely with Games Workshop themselves. With their unbalanced, error ridden and prohibitively priced books along with the fact that they keep jacking prices up on their products, it's no wonder they're losing money. Many have stopped playing, others have turned to piracy. It's easy to get your hands on a digital scan of a codex these days, and it's a lot better than paying $50 for a book they don't even seem to bother editing, much less balancing with the rest of the game in mind (hi, Tau). It's much cheaper to get copies of GW models on eBay these days as well.

They are not in any way "losing money". Fact. Second, ebay has the same effect on almost anything and if one doesn't care about assembly quality or paint/primer quality it will always be cheaper. As for the rulebooks, I agree that GW may be better served by offering the rules for "free" if they truly do make most of their profit from minis. It is also possible that GW knows its books get pirated and doesn't care (they don't even attempt to secure the ebooks for instance). You realize that most companies "continue to jack up prices on their products" as a part of doing business (especially companies that have very little direct competition).

Graystoak
22-01-2014, 20:00
They are not in any way "losing money". Fact. ....... You realize that most companies "continue to jack up prices on their products" as a part of doing business (especially companies that have very little direct competition).

Profits are down 30% 'Fact', I'd consider that loosing money. And I'm sure the GW share holder considers it loosing money.

As for continuing to jack up prices, I can't think of a single product that has gone up in cost proportionately to the way GW miniatures have. I remember buying Mortal Kombat II on Super Nintendo for £45 like 20 years ago, how much does a video game cost now? About £45 right?

duffybear1988
22-01-2014, 20:03
They are not in any way "losing money". Fact. Second, ebay has the same effect on almost anything and if one doesn't care about assembly quality or paint/primer quality it will always be cheaper. As for the rulebooks, I agree that GW may be better served by offering the rules for "free" if they truly do make most of their profit from minis. It is also possible that GW knows its books get pirated and doesn't care (they don't even attempt to secure the ebooks for instance). You realize that most companies "continue to jack up prices on their products" as a part of doing business (especially companies that have very little direct competition).

They aren't losing money in the sense that they aren't taking losses, but they are losing sales. Their latest figures reveal a big drop in profits, so much so that they cannot continue down this road or the company will go under eventually. When the amount of money they are making is dropping it's a clear sign that things aren't as rosy as they once were.

Gradek
22-01-2014, 20:25
Profits are down 30% 'Fact', I'd consider that loosing money. And I'm sure the GW share holder considers it loosing money.

As for continuing to jack up prices, I can't think of a single product that has gone up in cost proportionately to the way GW miniatures have. I remember buying Mortal Kombat II on Super Nintendo for £45 like 20 years ago, how much does a video game cost now? About £45 right?

Losing money has an actual definition, and it means negative earnings not simply a decline in earnings back to 2011 levels.

Second, while I can't quote exactly what GW minis cost in 2000, I can say that other things have gone up (here in the states anyway) at likely similar rates. Gasoline has more than doubled since 2000. Hospital services more than doubled. College textbooks more than doubled. Movie/concert tickets are up over 60%. Consumer electronics is one of the categories that has actually gone down in price over the last 10 years or so and is a bad comparison because it is the base technology that has gotten cheaper.

IcedCrow
22-01-2014, 20:41
Video games for the consoles ran $40 twenty years ago for the most part with some being $50. Today they are $60 with some being $70.

insectum7
22-01-2014, 21:09
As for continuing to jack up prices, I can't think of a single product that has gone up in cost proportionately to the way GW miniatures have.

Cigarettes :)
Cable packages
Phones

all for different reasons


I remember buying Mortal Kombat II on Super Nintendo for £45 like 20 years ago, how much does a video game cost now? About £45 right?

I wouldn't bring video games into it for comparison. Many of those $50 games are magnitudes more expensive to make than they used to be, and there are also tons of games that are free to play, or are play by subscription. It did not take 250 people five years to make Sonic the Hedgehog. The games industry is a bizarre beast.

Beppo1234
22-01-2014, 21:19
Cigarettes :)
Cable packages
Phones

all for different reasons



I wouldn't bring video games into it for comparison. Many of those $50 games are magnitudes more expensive to make than they used to be, and there are also tons of games that are free to play, or are play by subscription. It did not take 250 people five years to make Sonic the Hedgehog. The games industry is a bizarre beast.

petrol as well

agurus1
22-01-2014, 21:24
http://uk.finance.yahoo.com/echarts?s=GAW.L#symbol=gaw.l;range=my;compare=;ind icator=volume;charttype=area;crosshair=on;ohlcvalu es=0;logscale=off;source=undefined;
click on [max]

GW stock has historically peaked and dropped...

In 4 years it'll likely be high again, then drop and this post will be recreated...

repeat

forever

bleh


yeah that site does it for me. "All this has happen before, and will happen again."! lol I honestly don't get some of the "hobbyists" who are gloating over GW's recent downturn. Don't you want the company to do well?

Torga_DW
22-01-2014, 21:36
yeah that site does it for me. "All this has happen before, and will happen again."! lol I honestly don't get some of the "hobbyists" who are gloating over GW's recent downturn. Don't you want the company to do well?

Not everyone is gloating. The peaks and drops happen for a reason, its not just a random event (pun intended). As for wanting the company to do well: the 'hobby' as defined by gw: is buying things from gw. Personally i'm ambivalent about that sort of hobby and that sort of company. ymmv though.

Graystoak
22-01-2014, 21:38
The reason Cigarets, Petrol and Booze for that matter, are more expensive today than 20 years ago is predominantly due to taxation so you can blame your government for that one, not the manufacturers.

I take your (various posters), point that the video game industry is a different beast. As somebody pointed out a game produced for today's market would require hundreds more man hours than space invaders did. In which case you'd expect it to cost much much more right? The reason I use it as a comparison is because it's something I did in my teens for entertainment (like 40k), which as a consumer product has improved, as 40k miniatures have. It also targets a very similar demographic.


Losing money has an actual definition, and it means negative earnings not simply a decline in earnings back to 2011 levels.

In which case your arguing about grammar. Of course they're not literally loosing money.

Theocracity
22-01-2014, 21:39
yeah that site does it for me. "All this has happen before, and will happen again."! lol I honestly don't get some of the "hobbyists" who are gloating over GW's recent downturn. Don't you want the company to do well?

I think most people around here assume that a struggling company will change course by acting in the 'best interests' of the fans - rather than the much more likely result that they act in the best interests of their shareholders and change course by cost cutting, price raising or shutting down.

Edit: To put it another way, if a business's turnaround plan is 'convince jaded former customers to come back by reducing prices and increasing quality WHILE increasing profits' then the shareholders will likely ask 'why are you throwing away our money tilting at windmills' and cut their losses.

jhwieser
22-01-2014, 21:53
I'm curious, can someone tell me what multi-million pound, multi-national companies do the things that people are expecting GW to do? There are some seriously unrealistic expectations being expressed here.

Riot Games. The are kind of the golden standard for me though, so maybe that is unfair. They communicate with their customers constantly, through the forums on their website and through reddit. They do AMAs on reddit every month or two usually about specific new releases.

insectum7
22-01-2014, 21:58
petrol as well

That was the one. I knew there was a really obvious one that I was missing.


The reason Cigarets, Petrol and Booze for that matter, are more expensive today than 20 years ago is predominantly due to taxation so you can blame your government for that one, not the manufacturers.


Government coupled with geopolitical realities, heck, from what I understand here in America the government was keeping the price of gas artificially low. Fun thing to note though is that plastic is a petroleum product, and the cost of shipping is often largely the price of gas.

It's pretty loose logic but if you've got fairly negligible competition, a broad, loyal customer base, improve the model kits (incurring costs), and grapple with rising prices on raw materials and shipping. . . I'd say it's almost a given that prices would go up at least some.

Maybe not $50 a box for Tyranid Warriors, but you get my drift.

But all in all I can't imagine that GW is somehow, in any way "defeated." They have a ton of resources, a solid IP or three, and presumably room to maneuver and make adjustments. Like many have said, they've had slides before, and economies and sectors everywhere are wobbly right now. Big companies can slide for years and come back again after transformational shifts.

IcedAnimals
22-01-2014, 22:00
personally, I am enjoying the rules for infinity. 9 factions, multiple subfactions for each. Completely free rules for all models and rulebooks. (There might be one scenario book that isn't free). A fully supported and sponsored tournament scene. Including a unique miniature given only to the top players. (not collectors, players). A fully functioning army creator with hotlinks to the rules of each units profile. A wiki that includes all relevant FAQs on the unit/special rules page. So you don't need to check another source to see if it has changed. And if I want, I can pay them the money needed to have my rulebooks printed on demand. So I still get the feeling of a great hard back book if I don't want to just print stuff out.

I only have 2 complaints and both are more than acceptable. First, since the company is spanish, there are some odd translations. Though im sure this is something that happens all the time, I just never see it due to most wargaming being english products. (And again, even the translated rules are free.) The second being that the way the rules are organized in the rule books tend to be spread all over the place. I had 5 tabs open, each a different "book" when trying to figure out what army I want to build. This of course has been quickly remedied by fans. Since the rules are completely free the company doesn't care if a fan puts together a "codex" for say panoceania and has it compile all the relevant rules, then put them on a website for others to use. And then like I mentioned earlier, the army builder actually works great in organizing the rules for you as well. You just click an army, click if you are playing vanilla or a supplement and then you have a list of all the options available which you just click to add into your list.

I don't know if that model would work well for GW however. Having free rules to encourage you to buy into more armies works for infinity because each army is tiny. You can buy an entire playable army for less than a single GW model. (Say the wraithknight). However with 40k the rules are the cheapest part of your army. Just because you now have a copy of the dark angel codex on hand for free doesn't make you suddenly want to go plop down a few hundred $ on a ravenwing force. So if those books are profitable for GW, it is likely in their best interest to keep making them exactly how they are.

Sildani
22-01-2014, 22:02
Can't say about the rest of the world, but in the USA, gasoline (petrol) has doubled in price because demand for oil in China and India, amongst other places, has gone through the roof. There hasn't been an increase in the actual gas tax for over 10 years.

As for GW: I want them to do well. Without them, my Eldar suddenly got MUCH harder to play with. Now, will they listen to the customer and change what they do? Possibly, but the question then becomes:

Which customer should they listen to? Many people complain on Warseer. Not too many complaints are shared by a quorum of people. Some complain about rules, others prices, still others about both. But are those even a majority of GW customers? Even a strong minority?

Graystoak
22-01-2014, 22:09
Here in the UK when you fill up your tank more of your money is going on tax than on petrol.



It's pretty loose logic but if you've got fairly negligible competition, a broad, loyal customer base, improve the model kits (incurring costs), and grapple with rising prices on raw materials and shipping. . . I'd say it's almost a given that prices would go up at least some.

Maybe not $50 a box for Tyranid Warriors, but you get my drift.

I totally get your drift. Things get more expensive for lots of good reasons. Production costs, future investment, R & D, I'll even take wanting to make more money as a valid reason! But GW's excessive price rises cannot be excused by any of these reasons. It's just pure "let's see how much these suckers are prepared to pay". I don't like being treated like a sucker after 20+ years of brand loyalty.

hobojebus
22-01-2014, 22:13
Way back when tau came out i bought a 1k army of them at games day, they are all still in a box downstairs and when the new codex came out i thought about bumping what i had up to 2k, the prices put me off massively.

The stoke store manager back in 2005 effectively killed off my ability to play 40k for 7 years because i had no where to play, me and some friends got back into it a few years ago and mostly i've just used what i already had i spent a hundred on my wolves over 2 years to get them flexible enough for multiple playstyles, i revived my necron army and paid about the same, then i realised how much i'd spent and how little i got for it and i've just instead worked on repainting my old stuff up to my new standard.

I dont hate GW, but i have other things that entertain me for alot less money and when you compare them i get way more pleasure from things other than GW.

Ssilmath
22-01-2014, 22:20
Which customer should they listen to? Many people complain on Warseer. Not too many complaints are shared by a quorum of people. Some complain about rules, others prices, still others about both. But are those even a majority of GW customers? Even a strong minority?

And that is a major question. I see lots of people talk about how "We didn't want this" or "GW doesn't know what players want" but they've no way of knowing that. There's also an element of trying to please everybody ends up pleasing nobody, and so it's best to just put out the product they way you want it and let people adapt or change it themselves. It's also obvious that they playtest and design for an entirely different set of circumstances and mindset from the typical sources of complaints (Abstractly, not people in this case), where things work on their end.


But GW's excessive price rises cannot be excused by any of these reasons. It's just pure "let's see how much these suckers are prepared to pay". I don't like being treated like a sucker after 20+ years of brand loyalty.

Unless you've got some insight into the company that you're not sharing (Like documents showing costs, board meeting minutes or the like) you've got nothing to back this up outside of an assumption that pure greed is the cause.

Theocracity
22-01-2014, 22:20
Here in the UK when you fill up your tank more of your money is going on tax than on petrol.



I totally get your drift. Things get more expensive for lots of good reasons. Production costs, future investment, R & D, I'll even take wanting to make more money as a valid reason! But GW's excessive price rises cannot be excused by any of these reasons. It's just pure "let's see how much these suckers are prepared to pay". I don't like being treated like a sucker after 20+ years of brand loyalty.

So you admit that there are other reasons for price hikes, but you'd rather assert without evidence that the price hikes are being done out of contempt and spite.

Ok.

DuskRaider
22-01-2014, 22:26
They are not in any way "losing money". Fact. Second, ebay has the same effect on almost anything and if one doesn't care about assembly quality or paint/primer quality it will always be cheaper. As for the rulebooks, I agree that GW may be better served by offering the rules for "free" if they truly do make most of their profit from minis. It is also possible that GW knows its books get pirated and doesn't care (they don't even attempt to secure the ebooks for instance). You realize that most companies "continue to jack up prices on their products" as a part of doing business (especially companies that have very little direct competition).

Well you can split hairs with "losing money" all you want, but they're missing sales due to their increase in prices compared to people who will re-cast and sell at a lower price. And don't talk to me about inflation, there's no reason a Land Raider should EVER be $75, considering I picked up a Baneblade a few years ago for $100. That's not inflation, that's gouging.

Graystoak
22-01-2014, 22:28
So you admit that there are other reasons for price hikes, but you'd rather assert without evidence that the price hikes are being done out of contempt and spite.


Unless you've got some insight into the company that you're not sharing (Like documents showing costs, board meeting minutes or the like) you've got nothing to back this up outside of an assumption that pure greed is the cause.

Seriously? No I don't have any documented evidence of what the production cost of a Dire Avenger is. But maybe one of you can offer me a plausible explanation as to why they went from £18.50 for 10 to £20.50 for 5? I guess I'm jumping to conclusions calling it greed, maybe the cost of card board packaging skyrocketed around the time of the 6th ed codex release!

Theocracity
22-01-2014, 22:35
Seriously? No I don't have any documented evidence of what the production cost of a Dire Avenger is. But maybe one of you can offer me a plausible explanation as to why they went from £18.50 for 10 to £20.50 for 5? I guess I'm jumping to conclusions calling it greed, maybe the cost of card board packaging skyrocketed around the time of the 6th ed codex release!

Expensive new plastic molding technology. Increased rent prices for store locations. Investing in technology and talent for a venture in ebook publishing. New business deal with color hardback publishing. Increased money spent to improve production and supply chain in order to support a more aggressive release schedule. Larger margins needed for plastic kits to make up for losses on Finecast.

The price of the dire avengers may have increased, but the reason for that increase doesn't have to have anything in particular to do with dire avengers.

Edit:...for the record, though, that particular price hike did create some whiplash. It seems like the kind of idea that looked better on a balance sheet than it does on a shelf.

frikandel speciaal
22-01-2014, 22:38
GW prices are ridiculous for some years now. I can't even remember when i bought something at a GW-store. Must be something like 5 years ago.
Nowadays i buy Forgeworld stuff which is insanely pricey as well, but at least you get something spectaculair with a nice set of rules.

Lot's of people i know from different gaming communities have left the hobby, just because GW is MUCH to expensive and some armies became silly.

insectum7
22-01-2014, 22:44
Seriously? No I don't have any documented evidence of what the production cost of a Dire Avenger is. But maybe one of you can offer me a plausible explanation as to why they went from £18.50 for 10 to £20.50 for 5? I guess I'm jumping to conclusions calling it greed, maybe the cost of card board packaging skyrocketed around the time of the 6th ed codex release!

I'm on board with that. Many of the price hikes appear as the cost of doing business, but there are a few of them are really do feel like a punch in the gut.

Also, I feel like in the past some of those basic troop boxes were less expensive just for the sake of making a starting army not so jarring, and I think that's something that's sorely lacking now. Not only are the basic guys more expensive, but the common wisdom (which I don't really agree with) is that basic troops are often just not good on the table either. So your starting army is a bunch of even more expensive special kits, rather than a broad range of models that included some of the better deals to get help you get going in the first place.

Graystoak
22-01-2014, 22:55
Well said.


Expensive new plastic molding technology. Increased rent prices for store locations. Investing in technology and talent for a venture in ebook publishing. New business deal with color hardback publishing. Increased money spent to improve production and supply chain in order to support a more aggressive release schedule. Larger margins needed for plastic kits to make up for losses on Finecast.

All good reasons but like me you don't have any evidence to prove that its true. If GW's pricing policy is acceptable to you then that's fair enough but the purpose of this thread was to look at the reasons for the drop in sales/interest of 40k and like a lot of others I blame the cost of products. Or more specifically the mark up on GW products.

Theocracity
22-01-2014, 23:06
All good reasons but like me you don't have any evidence to prove that its true. If GW's pricing policy is acceptable to you then that's fair enough but the purpose of this thread was to look at the reasons for the drop in sales/interest of 40k and like a lot of others I blame the cost of products. Or more specifically the mark up on GW products.

While I may not know the sticker price of each of those investments, I do know that those are all projects that GW has embarked on in the last year or two. And I know that any one of those don't come cheap, especially if you're still expecting to post profits for the year - which means your revenue has to be pretty high.

Its fine if you'd rather believe that business investments can't be that expensive and that greed must be the underlying reason. I just feel that recognizing the forces that actually drive them lets me be more zen about my hobby.

Also it's important to note that this thread's OP made the conflation that reduced profits meant reduced sales. I don't think that's the whole story - I think the investments had a big impact on the balance sheet.

gitburna
22-01-2014, 23:17
Personally I'm more than happy to pay GW as they provide jobs and are a UK brand. I live in Stoke-on-Trent, a city that was once (not too long ago) the ceramics capital of the world but most of the firms closed their factories in preference of paying cheap labour in the far east, which gutted the local economy. Without jobs, there's no spending power. GW employ a lot of people on fairly decent western wages and run chains of high street stores. We all want to have amazing products but we seemingly don't want to pay the price for them to be produced in a western economy. GW prodcuts are expensive, yes, but compared to a night out drinking, a trip to the cinema, a games console, a meal with my family etc the cost is acceptable.

The group of gamers i play with are all into their 30s though now. We have families, cars, mortgages, jobs. I have far less time to build and paint and play. I've ran out of space to keep on buying and buying but I still get stuff when i can really justify it to myself. I personally think the best GW can do is to tough it out for a few more years until the world's economy has restructured itself - i know i personally will still support the company whenever i can but realistically the days of "buying a new army" are over.

Graystoak
22-01-2014, 23:17
While I may not know the sticker price of each of those investments, I do know that those are all projects that GW has embarked on in the last year or two. And I know that any one of those don't come cheap, especially if you're still expecting to post profits for the year - which means your revenue has to be pretty high.

Its fine if you'd rather believe that business investments can't be that expensive and that greed must be the underlying reason. I just feel that recognizing the forces that actually drive them lets me be more zen about my hobby.

Also it's important to note that this thread's OP made the conflation that reduced profits meant reduced sales. I don't think that's the whole story - I think the investments had a big impact on the balance sheet.

I have to say I admire your zen/positivity about this issue. But I genuinely believe their prices are higher than they need to be for the company to turn a decent profit. If it were about production costs then surely you would expect older models to be cheaper than new ones or costs to be based on how many components are in a kit rather than what FOC it occupies.

Edit: in ref to your last point, I was under the impression that sales had been falling year on year for some time now? But like you say, it's far from the whole story. I'm convinced they're about to do something like float the company with the way they're releasing stuff right now.

barontuman
22-01-2014, 23:26
I'll throw my opinions in with the Game Balance and feeling like they care about customers. I don't care if they push their latest stuff. I understand that they want people to buy the latest stuff. But if they are going to do "codex creep" then it should be consistent and incremental. Tau and Eldar nonsense has other (even more recent) Codeci uncompetitive/un-fun to field.

They should at least "pretend" that they care about their customers and the rules that they publish. It is a GAME and GAMES are supposed to allow players to COMPETE against each other using skill, luck or strength. Luck is OK, but it shouldn't be the "luck" that you happened to choose Tau as your army. I don't even mind internal balance of individual army books being bad. What I do mind is external balance between army books.

When we constantly have to have these discussions about how OP a specific army is, it pushes away new players, and turns even us old die-hards away from the game.... (Dropzone commander anyone?) I want to give GW my money. I want to collect more new toys and play with them. But those three go together. If I can't play with them and have a good time (because I get blown off the table without being able to make my "vroom vroom" sounds) then I won't collect new toys and I won't give them my money.

A game is only fun if both people are removing models and feel like they have a chance to win. Otherwise we might as well play tic-tac-toe.

Theocracity
22-01-2014, 23:38
I have to say I admire your zen/positivity about this issue. But I genuinely believe their prices are higher than they need to be for the company to turn a decent profit. If it were about production costs then surely you would expect older models to be cheaper than new ones or costs to be based on how many components are in a kit rather than what FOC it occupies.

Edit: in ref to your last point, I was under the impression that sales had been falling year on year for some time now? But like you say, it's far from the whole story. I'm convinced they're about to do something like float the company with the way they're releasing stuff right now.

As I said earlier in the thread (which admittedly came from discussion with a much smarter friend), I think the huge expensive ramp up was an effort to sell the company by proving it could be vibrant and expansive. The fact that no buyers took the bait last year meant that they had to eat the cost of all those improvements on the balance sheet this year. If that line of thought is correct, then there's nothing really to worry about regarding GW's health - the lower profits are a write-off, not a trend. It'll be interesting to see how this year progresses.

Gradek
22-01-2014, 23:59
Well you can split hairs with "losing money" all you want, but they're missing sales due to their increase in prices compared to people who will re-cast and sell at a lower price. And don't talk to me about inflation, there's no reason a Land Raider should EVER be $75, considering I picked up a Baneblade a few years ago for $100. That's not inflation, that's gouging.

Read their income statement. GW's profit margin (overall) is only 11%. That means on that $75 Land Raider, GW only made $8.25. Are you actually saying they should profit less than that on a land raider? And in reality, their margins on that land raider are lower than 11% because the margin is driven up by the 45% margin they make on FW, Black Library, and digital sales. So, it may be fair to claim some gouging on those products, on the regular plastic they are not making much.

NagashLover
23-01-2014, 00:10
I'm sure there are many, but just to mention one...hmm...Blizzard Entertainment?

1) They haven't really increased the monthly fee for playing since I started in 2005. Counting for inflation, the prices has technically dropped.
2) They are better at keeping balance between classes in PvE (and to some extent PvP), because unlike GW they at least try.
3) - (Irrelevant)
4) They care about what their players think more than some realize. They let players beta-test their incoming patches/expansions before release, and they have employees who's main duty is to have dialogue with the playerbase.


I played WoW in beta and Vanilla. I played BC, day 1 picking up Fel Hunter poop with gangs of respawns haunting your every move for about a year before leaving only to return every expansion because friends said it "changed for the better this time!"

1. The difference is that Blizzard is bleeding customers dry using outdated mechanics that the genre has been moving away from over the years. Honestly Vanilla WoW and the City of Heroes/Villains games were the only pay per month MMO's I regularly supported. That said TSW/Vanilla WoW/City of games are some of the best MMO experiences I ever had. Guild Wars 2 or DC Universe (technically Marvel is more a dungeon crawler) may not be your cup of tea but unlike Blizzard they don't charge you to keep playing the game you bought. Honestly, Blizzard can get away with it because they don't care how many subscribers they have. They have already made back, and then a lot more, the money from the Vanilla and all the expansions. They could charge to the very last day the servers are shut down and it wouldn't bother them in the slightest.

2. Even when I was heavily playing. PvP and end game Vanilla raiding, when it was very difficult. Blizzard's idea of balance was to throw a dart and see what picture it lands on and then dealing with that class. In this manner they used a "Flavour of the Month" approach which led to mostly just waiting for your turn to shine. Let me tell you as a Balance druid since day -1 on, it hadn't come around until expansions after. Despite having to roll another class ( I ended up playing them all just no elves or Draenei when it came to races) or respec under healing I never knocked them for how they handled balance, but in no way are they any better than GW or other companies. In most cases they had to break something before even attempting to balance it.

4. They care no more and no less than any other larger corporation. They definitely aren't saints compared to GW considering the Diablo 3 AH and always online fiasco. The fact they are guilty of nurturing those cash cows of StarCraft, World of Warcraft and Diablo (while on these boards some accuse GW of the whole Warhammer main games and Space Marines). Will you have terrible customer relations people to speak with? Yes, but with my experience with both companies they had the exact same quality of caring about the customer base.

Now obviously I mean no insult and respect your opinion but my friend, Blizzard is just as bad (and that is looking at them in the most positive light that can be made reasonably) and I would say in my view worse . Not only do they continue to milk the same franchises they destroyed the chance of Warcraft ever going back to the RTS genre. So the reason of my post wasn't to be antagonistic but to point out to an element of what Telemachus said that is truth. The larger the playerbase the less you have your ear to the ground with them and the larger the number will be for disgruntled people. One person's hero is another's villain and all that jazz.

More to the topic...it's a multitude of things that got GW to this position. Mostly misreading the playerbase based upon what we have purchased, really imprinting what they are selling as an experience (example PP, though I find my local community very toxic, makes no gesture to hide Warmahordes as "competitive"...where as my local group takes that as being insulting and rude). So what experience is Warhammer supposed to be for? Why is it so unclear to portions of the community? Are they really pushing that image out as efficiently as they could? Also finecast, and the backtracking of it was a mistake. The economy in general and the eBay and second hand buy/sell/trade sites.

Honestly, we won't know if our (i.e. the communities) response to what they have done is a factor until we see what GW plans on doing in light of the "current" news. Regardless I doubt they are as in as dire a situation as some here believe. It isn't anything any large company has not gone through or will go through. Life is cyclical.

big squig
23-01-2014, 00:12
Well, I know why I got out of 40k. Overly complex rules that focus way too much on special rule, combos, and list building.

The focus on giant models, flyers, allies, and fortifications and warped 40k into something I don't even recognize anymore.

The community's focus on tournament play.

and of course the prices.

gLOBS
23-01-2014, 00:52
Well, I know why I got out of 40k. Overly complex rules that focus way too much on special rule, combos, and list building.

The focus on giant models, flyers, allies, and fortifications and warped 40k into something I don't even recognize anymore.

The community's focus on tournament play.

and of course the prices.

Wow summed up better and cleaner then what I would have typed.

AngryAngel
23-01-2014, 01:28
The new edition where I'm from exponentially increased our player base, not ran it off.

The new edition where I'm from did run off a lot of the competitive tournament guys to other games yes, but they were not the majority of the player base. The internet seems to indicate otherwise but without a global poll it would be hard to tell. I know from past polls that the competitive only guys numbered around 25% of the total polling community anyway, for whatever that's worth.

So did the new edition defeat Games Workshop? From where I'm standing, with 5x more players than we've ever had here, I'd say the new edition did what it needed to do.

It isn't the new edition that I think is the issue. Its the prices. For every 10 new players that we recruit, 8 of them are getting their armies second hand, 1 of them is hybriding new purchases from retail with second hand, and 1 of them is primarily retail.

Those numbers are to me why GW is being 'defeated'. The rules aren't it, despite the loud echo chamber that are internet forums. (not saying the rules are a paragon of virtue and balance either i'm saying a lot of people recognize the issues with the rules but that does not run them off from the game). A buy in cost of about $500 for a new player is where we were in 2000 and that I think is not an unrealistic number. The buy in now is roughly $900 on average and I think that that is ultimately what runs most new players off, and that's because they don't realize there is a massive 2nd hand market where they can get models for cheap. A lot of our new players (and by a lot I mean nearly all) would have turned away if they had to do full retail but were shown that ebay and discounts exist elsewhere as well as alternative models.

This is also now coupled with other miniatures companies coming up. However, I've still not seen any real game come out that challenges 40k for the scale 40k is set at... its usually all low model count games where the models are roughly equivalent in price to GW but you only need 10-20 models max.

I would tend to agree. Any argument of rules balance aside, there are always those who join in a new edition and leave. That tends to come out in the wash. What I think leads to the issue is the prices. They're just too high to keep people joining and expanding into new armies at the rate they used to. Even existing players don't keep up with each new release anymore as it hurts more and more with the new prices. A few years ago, just about everyone I knew who played would at least in the beginning start a small new force with a new book drop, then if they didn't like it, sell it. Now, its too expensive, they wait to see what the web says and give it awhile and if it looks poor, they never invest as the price to dip your toes in its too high now.

It feels like the price hikes have tried to keep profits high, so even selling less it doesn't matter. That may have hit the ceiling with the diminishing returns, it was only a matter of time. Leaving only second hand as the only cheap option, an option people are using as they honestly should. If their retail prices were more reasonable, I could see those numbers coming back around. I doubt they'll do that however and the issue will just continue to compound.

Langdon
23-01-2014, 06:41
A buy in cost of about $500 for a new player is where we were in 2000 and that I think is not an unrealistic number. The buy in now is roughly $900 on average and I think that that is ultimately what runs most new players off, and that's because they don't realize there is a massive 2nd hand market where they can get models for cheap. A lot of our new players (and by a lot I mean nearly all) would have turned away if they had to do full retail but were shown that ebay and discounts exist elsewhere as well as alternative models.


The buy in for an army is £60 (codex and MiniBRB) or £95 (DV and Codex) if you want to play a marine army.


For me the thing that killed GW this edition, is the shafting of mech and CC.. Sure you can still do that, but when MC's and gunlines are the norm.. trying to counter it, requires you to buy the same.. and that leads people to ebay instead of the oft crashing website.

Cheeslord
23-01-2014, 09:54
While you are technically correct that a measurement of FAQs per page count is not a very scientific method of determining quality, your examples don't leave much doubt about your preconceptions of its results ;).

I find that amusing. I stated why having few FAQ could be either a good or a bad sign of rules quality. I did not mention any company names. Are you possibly introducing a bias from your own head?

Do you think I am biased against Privateer Press because they have less FAQs that Games Workshop? Or in their favour, because they have less FAQ than Games Workshop? Or did you assume that the negative example must refer to games workshop and the positive to privateer press at that is What Everyone Thinks?

Mark.

Azulthar
23-01-2014, 09:57
I really want this financial backlash to be a result of 6th edition, as I'm pretty unhappy with it.

But I can't imagine it making even the top 10 of actual reasons. I'd say the high prices combined with the economy are probably in there though. Cynical as I am with GW, I fear their reaction to this development will be to squeeze us even more.

Wolf Lord Balrog
23-01-2014, 11:52
Its the prices of the model kits and rule books, pure and simple. I think we could all forgive the multitude of sins in the rules design if the models and books didn't cost so damn much. The last new thing I bought for any of my armies was two boxes of Thunderwolves 18 months ago. The last thing before that was a Devilfish for my Tau 2 years earlier. Now with Flyers and Monstrous Creatures everywhere, and now these new Formations? I just can't afford to keep up. I would need to spend hundreds of dollars to update my armies to make them even semi-competitive. I got bills to pay, and the economy is so bad where I live I'm lucky to have even a crappy job.

And I'm not alone in feeling this way in my area. Fantasy has basically gone extinct, and 40k is on life support here. People are playing Infinity, Flames of War, Bolt Action, WarmaHordes, and X-Wing. And this is in the backyard of GW's U.S. headquarters. We just can't afford this 'hobby' anymore.

Edit: This (http://uk.finance.yahoo.com/echarts?s=GAW.L#symbol=gaw.l;range=my;compare=;ind icator=volume;charttype=area;crosshair=on;ohlcvalu es=0;logscale=off;source=undefined;) link earlier to GW's stock prices? All it proves is that 2-3 times before GW's stock price has taken a nose-dive and they've recovered. this leaves two unanswered concerns:
1> Why do they keep taking a nosedive every 3-4 years? If it were just recognition of expensed investments it wouldn't take years for the stock price to rebound each time.
2> What indication is there that this time resembles the previous times at all? Just because they've recovered in the past doesn't mean they can do it again. They might do the opposite this time: continue to stumble right out of business.

None of this is to say I'm rooting for GW to fail. I'd quite like them to go on making miniatures for me. I just want them to get smart, before they get broke.

SonofMagnus
23-01-2014, 12:51
So all of these big massive companies re-write the rules and background material of their games because some of their customers think that they could do a better job?

Do Privateer Press do it?

I don't think so; what these companies do is a better job of listening with a smile on their faces and then continuing to do what they want to do anyway.

I am SO glad you said that!!! The perfect segway and bait into what im about to say to make GW look like an ass......now to prove you wrong -

In response about privateer? ACTUALLY yes!!! Privateer press consistently alters the game based on player feedback - most notably the Privateer press official tournaments. A good example was "feats" of some primary tournament characters / Warcasters, (notably Soscha and Epic Asphixious) after they found some of the feats were VERY abusable by WAAC people they went back and FAQ'ed them to a point of "balance" or at least far more manageable then they were.

They have also done this with rules clarifications regarding new material interacting with the old via OFFICIAL AND CONSISTENT *just to emphasize* rulings. Not to mention the design team of Privateer press consistently visits the privateer press forums and are very open about models and the intent regarding rules of models and how the rules are supposed to interact with one another based on a distinct ruleset.

Not to mention that aside from the designers and artists that work for privateer talking to the customer base directly....They have people that do work for the company as kind of a "volunteer" status that gives them even more credit within the gaming community as many of the people who work in the higher echelons of privateer are themselves in fact gamers. I beleive the CEO began designing Hordes/Warmachine in College and he himself has been a lifelong gamer.

You can see the attitude and its very pervasive throughout the company. And you can see how they benefit from it, unlike GW whos "higher ups" have been known to badmouth their own customers.

Notice of all of the above- Very little matches GW's current way of treating its game, its customers, and everything in between.

Vipoid
23-01-2014, 13:40
Read their income statement. GW's profit margin (overall) is only 11%. That means on that $75 Land Raider, GW only made $8.25. Are you actually saying they should profit less than that on a land raider? And in reality, their margins on that land raider are lower than 11% because the margin is driven up by the 45% margin they make on FW, Black Library, and digital sales. So, it may be fair to claim some gouging on those products, on the regular plastic they are not making much.

I believe you're partially mistaken - it comes down to fixed and variable costs. Variable costs change based on production (e.g., if you want to double your output, you need extra plastic, extra packaging etc.), whilst fixed costs are the same regardless of units produced - salaries, property rent etc.

Anyway, the point is that GW has a very high margin in terms of variable costs - 71.6% I believe. So, for each pound you spend on a land raider, just 28.4p actually went to producing it. It's only when you stack up the total sales and deduct fixed costs that their margins start to look poor.

The problem is either that GW's fixed costs are too high (though they seem to have been doing everything possible to keep them down), or (more likely) they're just not selling enough.

Anyway, my point is that price reductions won't necessarily hurt their overall margins if they result in increased sales as a result (since it's only fixed costs that are pulling their margins down).

Hopefully I've explained that ok. :p

Gradek
23-01-2014, 13:56
I believe you're partially mistaken - it comes down to fixed and variable costs. Variable costs change based on production (e.g., if you want to double your output, you need extra plastic, extra packaging etc.), whilst fixed costs are the same regardless of units produced - salaries, property rent etc.

Anyway, the point is that GW has a very high margin in terms of variable costs - 71.6% I believe. So, for each pound you spend on a land raider, just 28.4p actually went to producing it. It's only when you stack up the total sales and deduct fixed costs that their margins start to look poor.

The problem is either that GW's fixed costs are too high (though they seem to have been doing everything possible to keep them down), or (more likely) they're just not selling enough.

Anyway, my point is that price reductions won't necessarily hurt their overall margins if they result in increased sales as a result (since it's only fixed costs that are pulling their margins down).

Hopefully I've explained that ok. :p

But you are making a big assumption that they could lower prices enough to increase sales to the point that the increased sales more than offset the reduction in profit (since the fixed costs are still there). I simply do not think it is possible, nor do I think kit pricing is what is hurting GW the most. My points from earlier (in case you missed them):

1) Limitations of product carried by independent retailers (this is a huge problem). The relatively recent policy of GW moving much more product to direct sales only has likely had (and will continue to have) a big impact on the growth of the player base (probably more than price) because independent retailers simply are not going to promote a game whose products they cannot sell (I have witnessed this first hand). It is these retailers who essentially provide a (relatively) free sales team for GW and they effectively shut that promotional tool off with the direct sales approach.

2) The limited availability of the product outside of "known circles". By not having the starter sets in non-hobby stores (ie the Targets/Walmarts/Toys R Us/etc) of the world, the game's growth is limited to those that know (ie gamers) and people that go into a game store (see problem #1).

3) Rules pricing/availability. If GW truly is a miniatures company as they state AND they make most of their profits from selling miniatures, then the pricing of the army books makes no sense whatsoever (ideally these would be a loss leader like a Keurig machine). While I love the composition/quality of the army books/rules, it might make business sense to give away (or almost give away) the rules (not the fluff/pics) if in fact the money is in the minis (ie if GW makes say $20 on a $50 kit, but only $10 on a $50 army book, then giving away the rules could make you an extra $10 (assuming the consumer is going to spend that $50 with you regardless).

4) Not pushing smaller games enough (#3 comes into play here as well). 40k actually can work fine (and be fun) using the normal rules but with say 500 points (an HQ, 2-5 man tactical squads, a termie squad, and a vehicle). You could theoretically get that army for say $170 (GW prices), but between GW not promoting those size games AND the sunk rules cost of likely $120 minimum, this market may be lost.

5) 40k balance/"competitive" gamers. I actually think this is a lesser problem from a business perspective to the 4 above, but it likely is going to have some impact on the existing base. Some people will spend/have the money to spend on whatever the newest/most powerful army is, but many players do not/will not. Thus, when balance gets too far out of place you can end up with a situation in which the existing (non-taudar) base decides the game isn't as fun anymore and backs off purchases (some may come back with the next rules change, others move on for good). If in fact (as GW has repeatedly stated) the target GW consumer is more of a "beer and pretzels" player this shouldn't be a problem though.

Theocracity
23-01-2014, 14:23
Or did you assume that the negative example must refer to games workshop and the positive to privateer press at that is What Everyone Thinks?

I wasn't really making an argument - I was just ribbing you for using leading examples ;).

But yes, that is why I said that.

frikandel speciaal
23-01-2014, 14:30
Well, I know why I got out of 40k. Overly complex rules that focus way too much on special rule, combos, and list building.

The focus on giant models, flyers, allies, and fortifications and warped 40k into something I don't even recognize anymore.

The community's focus on tournament play.

and of course the prices.

I agree with this. I don't recognize it anymore and that is a major reason for me playing 30K nowadays

Vipoid
23-01-2014, 14:38
But you are making a big assumption that they could lower prices enough to increase sales to the point that the increased sales more than offset the reduction in profit (since the fixed costs are still there). I simply do not think it is possible, nor do I think kit pricing is what is hurting GW the most. My points from earlier (in case you missed them):

1) Limitations of product carried by independent retailers (this is a huge problem). The relatively recent policy of GW moving much more product to direct sales only has likely had (and will continue to have) a big impact on the growth of the player base (probably more than price) because independent retailers simply are not going to promote a game whose products they cannot sell (I have witnessed this first hand). It is these retailers who essentially provide a (relatively) free sales team for GW and they effectively shut that promotional tool off with the direct sales approach.

2) The limited availability of the product outside of "known circles". By not having the starter sets in non-hobby stores (ie the Targets/Walmarts/Toys R Us/etc) of the world, the game's growth is limited to those that know (ie gamers) and people that go into a game store (see problem #1).

3) Rules pricing/availability. If GW truly is a miniatures company as they state AND they make most of their profits from selling miniatures, then the pricing of the army books makes no sense whatsoever (ideally these would be a loss leader like a Keurig machine). While I love the composition/quality of the army books/rules, it might make business sense to give away (or almost give away) the rules (not the fluff/pics) if in fact the money is in the minis (ie if GW makes say $20 on a $50 kit, but only $10 on a $50 army book, then giving away the rules could make you an extra $10 (assuming the consumer is going to spend that $50 with you regardless).

4) Not pushing smaller games enough (#3 comes into play here as well). 40k actually can work fine (and be fun) using the normal rules but with say 500 points (an HQ, 2-5 man tactical squads, a termie squad, and a vehicle). You could theoretically get that army for say $170 (GW prices), but between GW not promoting those size games AND the sunk rules cost of likely $120 minimum, this market may be lost.

5) 40k balance/"competitive" gamers. I actually think this is a lesser problem from a business perspective to the 4 above, but it likely is going to have some impact on the existing base. Some people will spend/have the money to spend on whatever the newest/most powerful army is, but many players do not/will not. Thus, when balance gets too far out of place you can end up with a situation in which the existing (non-taudar) base decides the game isn't as fun anymore and backs off purchases (some may come back with the next rules change, others move on for good). If in fact (as GW has repeatedly stated) the target GW consumer is more of a "beer and pretzels" player this shouldn't be a problem though.

You make some excellent points, and I quite agree.

I'd just meant that that a drop in price could be workable - since their problem seems to lie with volume of sales, rather than in the margin per product sold (which is very high). I hadn't meant to imply that dropping prices would automatically increase sales enough to compensate.

With regard to #4, I think this is a really important one in terms of attracting new players. I mean, let's say I wanted to start a Hordes army - well, I can get a box with a Warcaster and a few Warbeasts for £30.00 (which comes with the rules for those models, albeit on their respective cards). Or, a 2-player set with some extra stuff for £60. Compare that to some of the GW equivalents - e.g. the Vampire Counts battalion is £75, and doesn't even include a character. Not to mention, if I actually want to play the army, it's another £27.50 just for their rules.

Valkyrie Sky
23-01-2014, 14:47
Erm Jind, Im surprised you asked such a question. Yes I understand you like Gw's miniatures,gaming and hobby.
but you really don't think GW company has been treating their loyal fan like bloody idiots for the past few years?
Hasn't the banker side of you ever rise over the fan side and make you realize how disrespectful the GW policy has become to the customer base?
I mean ya the game is great, staff is awesome, but the core company? oh come on, I would never sugar coat it unless my whole finance
is invested in GW stock.... :wtf:

IcedCrow
23-01-2014, 15:04
I hear this a lot and I have to ask, how does GW disrespect and treat its customers like idiots exactly?

Theocracity
23-01-2014, 15:09
I hear this a lot and I have to ask, how does GW disrespect and treat its customers like idiots exactly?

It offers products that certain customers have decided are not worth buying, obviously ;).

Telemachus
23-01-2014, 15:45
I am SO glad you said that!!! The perfect segway and bait into what im about to say to make GW look like an ass......now to prove you wrong - We'll see :rolleyes:


...In response about privateer? ACTUALLY yes!!! Privateer press consistently alters the game based on player feedback - most notably the Privateer press official tournaments. A good example was "feats" of some primary tournament characters / Warcasters, (notably Soscha and Epic Asphixious) after they found some of the feats were VERY abusable by WAAC people they went back and FAQ'ed them to a point of "balance" or at least far more manageable then they were. And the FAQ's and errata published by GW don't try to address the same type of problems that are raised by players after the release of a codex or rulebook? Privateer are only doing what GW do, maybe they do it more successfully, but to claim they do something that GW doesn't is not quite correct, is it?


...They have also done this with rules clarifications regarding new material interacting with the old via OFFICIAL AND CONSISTENT *just to emphasize* rulings. Not to mention the design team of Privateer press consistently visits the privateer press forums and are very open about models and the intent regarding rules of models and how the rules are supposed to interact with one another based on a distinct ruleset. I don't play Warmachine or Hordes so I can't give a personal opinion of the rules. However, there's been a couple of posts in this thread by people who do; and they don't seem to think that the rules published by Privateer Press are the Nirvana that they're made out to be.


...Not to mention that aside from the designers and artists that work for privateer talking to the customer base directly.... Hmmm, I'm pretty sure that if you go to Warhammer World you can have a chat with the design team, the 'Eavy Metal Team and anybody else that you would like to have a chat with, if they've got the time.


...They have people that do work for the company as kind of a "volunteer" status that gives them even more credit within the gaming community as many of the people who work in the higher echelons of privateer are themselves in fact gamers. I beleive the CEO began designing Hordes/Warmachine in College and he himself has been a lifelong gamer. So Privateer Press are a 21st Century version of GW back in the day.


...You can see the attitude and its very pervasive throughout the company. And you can see how they benefit from it, unlike GW whos "higher ups" have been known to badmouth their own customers. The attitude is very pervasive throughout the company? :wtf: I really don't know what GW stores you go into, or what version of their Customer Services team you've had dealings with, but I've never met or dealt with anyone from GW who has not been polite or as accommodating as they could possibly be. I can't comment on 'higher ups' badmouthing people, I've never heard that, but that's not to say that it's not true.


...Notice of all of the above- Very little matches GW's current way of treating its game, its customers, and everything in between. Yep, I noticed all of the above and there's one thing I would like to change about your last statement.


...Notice of all of the above- Very little differs from GW's current way of treating its game, its customers, and everything in between.

:D:D:D <- Privateer Press listening to customers before doing what they were going to do anyway.

:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes: <- Games Workshop listening to customers before doing what they were going to do anyway.

HereComesTomorrow
23-01-2014, 15:50
I hear this a lot and I have to ask, how does GW disrespect and treat its customers like idiots exactly?

Dataslates are a White Dwarf article that they want us to pay for. Apocolypse and the formations are the same.
Disregarding highly demanded requests (plastic Greater Daemons, plastic Eldar Aspect Warriors for example, in favor of cutting models per box at a price increase and focussing on big, expensive kits instead. Trying to sell Finecast as anything but awful. Putting any resources at all into The Hobbit. The prices of Sisters Of Battle models. Ignoring armies for nearly a decade without even a WD article update. Turning WD into an€8.50 catalogue. Pulling all their painting/hobby tutorial from the website. Blantantly overpowering new models in order to sell them (unless you think it's a coincidence that Helldrakes, riptides, wraithknights, nightscythes, exocrines are the stand out units the a newer books).

Theres probably other reasons I'm not thinking of. Those were off the top of my head.

IcedCrow
23-01-2014, 15:56
Pricing and trying to sell things are not to me disrespect or treating people like they are idiots. People vote with their wallet. If something is not worth your money - do not buy it. there are many expensive products on the market... I have never felt disrespected by them.

Dataslates - I hear a lot of positive things about from a lot of people excited about them (optional rules that you can opt to buy in to or opt not to) so not seeing the disrespect or being treated like an idiot there either. Obviously a lot of people desire that the rules for the models be free or next to free (as I hear that complaint daily that the rules should be a tiny pamphlet or free pdf download like other companies do) but I don't feel that GW profiting on their IP by selling the rules in dataslate format disrespects me.

Disregarding highly demanded requests is also not a sign of disrespect or treating people like they are idiots. Those running the company are responsible for the kits that they want to produce and focus on. What one considers a highly demanded request - others don't care about. I can understand the point of view opposite here beacuse as an event coordinator, I've had in the past had a couple of people that demanded a feature in an event and when they didn't get that, complained that I disrespected them by ignoring their request... when the truth of the matter was that their request didn't fit in with what I was trying to do with the event.

The finecast thing I agree with.

Putting resources into the hobbit is not a sign of disrespect or treating its customers like an idiot. They had a licensing agreement that they had to honor. If anything, acquiring the licensing for this product was a foolish endeavor but certainly not one borne out of disrespect.

Turning white dwarf into a catalog was their prerogative. I stopped buying white dwarf long ago because it wasn't what I wanted, but I don't feel GW is disrespecting me because of it. I voted with my wallet.

So ultimately trying to turn a profit is not disrespect, at least to me. If one feels that the pricing is disrespecting them... one should find a new company to support. I don't agree with their pricing for sure, and a lot of those things you list are things I'd like to see changed, but on the other side I don't feel that GW was disrespecting me or treating me like an idiot either.

budman
23-01-2014, 15:57
I hear this a lot and I have to ask, how does GW disrespect and treat its customers like idiots exactly?

just ask yourself: When was the last time you felt that Games Workshop as a company did something FOR you, just because they appreciate you as a customer?

Ssilmath
23-01-2014, 16:00
Dataslates are a White Dwarf article that they want us to pay for. Apocolypse and the formations are the same.

You also had to pay for the White Dwarf.


Disregarding highly demanded requests (plastic Greater Daemons, plastic Eldar Aspect Warriors for example, in favor of cutting models per box at a price increase and focussing on big, expensive kits instead.

Cause making new models for the newest codexes is a bad thing now.


Trying to sell Finecast as anything but awful.

I've yet to have a bad Finecast model. Most of the hubbub has died down after the first few batches got the bugs worked out, and now people just keep repeating it like hate zombies.


Putting any resources at all into The Hobbit.

Contractually obligated, if I'm not mistaken.


Pulling all their painting/hobby tutorial from the website.

And also making more. Or did you miss the videos they produced showing how to use the new technical paints?


Blantantly overpowering new models in order to sell them (unless you think it's a coincidence that Helldrakes, riptides, wraithknights, nightscythes, exocrines are the stand out units the a new books).

Only if you ignore the other half of the new releases that are considered to be completely garbage by Warseer. People always forget about Mutilators, Maulerfiends, Forgefiends, the Tau fliers, the Eldar fliers, most of the Dark Angels new kits, and now apparently the Nid fliers.

Telemachus
23-01-2014, 16:01
just ask yourself: When was the last time you felt that Games Workshop as a company did something FOR you, just because they appreciate you as a customer? For me it's when I went into one of their stores for a walk-in game; or asked the manager about how to paint something or asked for rules clarification. Wasn't forced or coerced into buying anything.

Can't speak for IcedCrow though.

Theocracity
23-01-2014, 16:05
Dataslates are a White Dwarf article that they want us to pay for. Apocolypse and the formations are the same.

Because White Dwarf was free, right?


Disregarding highly demanded requests (plastic Greater Daemons, plastic Eldar Aspect Warriors for example,

There are plenty of potential business reasons why they haven't done those models, from stock issues to modeler interest / resources.


in favor of cutting models per box at a price increase and focussing on big, expensive kits instead.

I addressed this point earlier in the thread.


Trying to sell Finecast as anything but awful.

You would rather they tried to sell it as awful? "The rising price of metal means we're using experimental less resin with less safety issues for now until we improve our plastic molds. Don't buy it, its crappy." That sound you hear is a marketing team getting fired.


Putting any resources at all into The Hobbit.

Yes, they should break their licensing deal with New Line. Nothing bad could happen there. Besides, from what I've heard LOTR is a pretty great system.


Blantantly overpowering new models in order to sell them (unless you think it's a coincidence that Helldrakes, riptides, wraithknights, nightscythes, exocrines are the stand out units the a new books).

That's been disproved countless times by looking at all of the other models in those releases. I guess they just made a bunch of stuff they didn't want to sell?

Edit: I'd also like to say that I think Iced addressed your points well, and with less snark than I did. Apologies for the tone.

IcedCrow
23-01-2014, 16:06
just ask yourself: When was the last time you felt that Games Workshop as a company did something FOR you, just because they appreciate you as a customer?

I don't care if a company does something for me because they appreciate me as a customer. I'm not self-important. Microsoft has never done anything for me either. Neither has Dell. Neither has Wizards of the Coast. Neither has any of the companies I buy product from.

Companies not doing something for me is not a sign of their disrespect unless you feel companies owe you for being a customer; an opinion that I do not hold.

Now on the Games Workshop specifically - the GW managers I know have expressed their appreciation and have openly helped me in sponsoring events and keeping our hobby going and people having fun. They are the interface between customer and the company. For that I am thankful. There is this disdain that exists that the company exists to make money, when it should exist for our benefit ... which I find to be a little bit absurd because if they didn't make money there would be no 40k or whfb and I'd be stuck with sub par models and products like warmachine and malifaux and other games that do zero for me.


Yes, they should break their licensing deal with New Line. Nothing bad could happen there. Besides, from what I've heard LOTR is a pretty great system.

IMO LOTR is a great system. It saddens me that it never caught on because as a game system it was top notch to me. I'm more of a fan of it than I am of WHFB, which I play only because it is the only mass wargame system around that I can enjoy at the scale I want and I can find players for.

williamsond
23-01-2014, 16:28
The wizards of the coast open beta on D&D next was a very good example of them listening to the comunity, it asked for feedback and made me feel like they were doing something for me and listening to my oppinons on the game. I would have loved to have seen GW take this kind of approach to their rules desisign for new rule sets and codexes. I would have still bought the final product and maybe some of the holes could have been pointed out. Just giving an example of a company with the right intentions not trying to add fuel to the argument, a few years ago wizards were worse than GW and I think people are too set in their camps to have there oppinions on this issue changed anyway (regardless of which side of the argument they come from).

IcedCrow
23-01-2014, 16:33
Sure and I don't disagree with you. A public beta and feedback is awesome, it engages the players. However, not doing a public beta is not a sign of disrespect IMO.

Once upon a time GW did do public beta testing. And people kept leaking everything so they stopped. They don't want their rules leaked in advance. WoTC doesn't seem to care, because their beta is open to the public.

Another thing that is a thing and does exist from several GW employees is that there was a person employed as one of their chief strategists that DID endorse imbalance to sell models and that that person was one of those let go... so I will remain cautiously optimistic that the boat gets turned around. (I'm not saying that GW is a wonderland of awesome, I am arguing against them disrespecting us and treating us like idiots... they are producing a product that we choose to buy or not buy)

HereComesTomorrow
23-01-2014, 16:38
Cuz White Dwarf was free? - No, but it also included battle reports, painting tutorials, additional rules for other systems. Saying "oh, but you had to BUY WD to get the rules" is a dumb argument because its implying that the only content was a rules article.

Maybe they have reasons to not replace existing kit/new kits are a bad thing - cuz that went so badly when they replaced the skaven and daemon core models? Personally, I replaced all my plastic monkey skaven with the new ones when they were released. To say its a waste of resources is pretty obviously not true. Keep in mind, these are the same resources that were used on Lord Of Skulls and Dreadfleet.

I've never had bad finecast/well what should they have done? - if you've never had bad finecast, lucky you. I was the same until I tried to buy The Deciever, and every box in the GW was missing a face. Trying to degend fine cast at this point is the result of some variation of Stolkholme syndrome. And they should have at least tested it first instead of just shoving it out. Even GW acknowledge that it has failed. The first sensible desicion they've made in years.

LotR/The Hobbit - we have no ifea what their contract with New Line is. But The Hobbit was never going to be a thing when its in the same shop as 40k/Fantasy. It shoukd have been a LotR expansion at most. Also, I never said anything about LotR being bad, or getting tid of it. Though it will go the way of specialist games.

Bit technical paint video tutorials! - Seriously? They amount to "take paint, put it on model". The only one if any use was the crackle paint and the thing about thickness. Incidentally, other companies have been making those kinds of paints for years.

Those releases had other models! - Yes. But they only need one spammable unit that you'll buy multiples of. If you throw enough crap at a wall, some of it will stick. Or in this case, if you throw enough crap st your players, they'll find the good crap and ask for more.

GW Stores - I can't remember the last time one was of any use. The staff know as much as we do about releases and rules as we do and are treated about as well. At least they got rid of their pressure sales methods, and its a shame thst the staff are losing jobs because GW can't get their head out of the sand.

This is the last I'm posting about this, because typing it all out on my phone is a pain, and I can't be bothered doing a " well I think this, well I think that" argument. Enjoy defending a company that doesn't give a crap.

Thruster
23-01-2014, 16:41
Pricing and trying to sell things are not to me disrespect or treating people like they are idiots. People vote with their wallet. If something is not worth your money - do not buy it.


I guess we did? That's whole point of this post?

IcedCrow
23-01-2014, 16:42
The post seems to indicate that everyone flocked elsewhere and GW is suddenly going bankrupt.

GW has not "been defeated". They posted a downturn to their profit margin, which the internet has leaped on and dryhumped with glee, waving the flag of "they are finally dying!!!" which has been raised and lowered since the 90s. Companies have ups and downs. I hope GW turns things around, but they are still not posting bankruptcy at this time and are not going away in the near future.


This is the last I'm posting about this, because typing it all out on my phone is a pain, and I can't be bothered doing a " well I think this, well I think that" argument. Enjoy defending a company that doesn't give a crap.

That's the point of having a debate. By giving your thoughts and opinions.

Theocracity
23-01-2014, 17:14
Cuz White Dwarf was free? - No, but it also included battle reports, painting tutorials, additional rules for other systems. Saying "oh, but you had to BUY WD to get the rules" is a dumb argument because its implying that the only content was a rules article.

While you're free to make a value judgement on the content, this format does provide for people who only want rules to get it in an easily accessible format that doesn't go out of print.


Maybe they have reasons to not replace existing kit/new kits are a bad thing - cuz that went so badly when they replaced the skaven and daemon core models? Personally, I replaced all my plastic monkey skaven with the new ones when they were released. To say its a waste of resources is pretty obviously not true. Keep in mind, these are the same resources that were used on Lord Of Skulls and Dreadfleet.

I heard a lot of griping about the plastic demons, personally. And the examples don't map - maybe the modelers don't want to replace the Eldar aspect warriors because they like the sculpts. Or they know that they only have one shot to replace it, and they don't have the resources or technology to create what they really want them to be yet. Or they have excess stock of the old sculpts and need to wait till it thins out. Or they have other sculpting ideas that they want to do that don't map to what a portion of players want (lord of skulls, etc).


I've never had bad finecast/well what should they have done? - if you've never had bad finecast, lucky you. I was the same until I tried to buy The Deciever, and every box in the GW was missing a face. Trying to degend fine cast at this point is the result of some variation of Stolkholme syndrome. And they should have at least tested it first instead of just shoving it out. Even GW acknowledge that it has failed. The first sensible desicion they've made in years.

I don't think anyone's really defending Finecast - though I will note that my only experience with it was positive. I'm just noting that it's silly to think that it was disrespectful that a marketing team tried to sell something.


LotR/The Hobbit - we have no ifea what their contract with New Line is. But The Hobbit was never going to be a thing when its in the same shop as 40k/Fantasy. It shoukd have been a LotR expansion at most. Also, I never said anything about LotR being bad, or getting tid of it. Though it will go the way of specialist games.

I don't know much about the Hobbit in particular to judge how they handled it, but regardless of the contract details I'm pretty sure not spending resources on it would be a violation if contract.


Bit technical paint video tutorials! - Seriously? They amount to "take paint, put it on model". The only one if any use was the crackle paint and the thing about thickness. Incidentally, other companies have been making those kinds of paints for years.

That's sort of like saying that any tutorial is 'put paint on model' except for the parts that were useful.


Those releases had other models! - Yes. But they only need one spammable unit that you'll buy multiples of. If you throw enough crap at a wall, some of it will stick. Or in this case, if you throw enough crap st your players, they'll find the good crap and ask for more.

So which is it? Are they intentionally making overpowered models or are the just throwing crap at a wall?


This is the last I'm posting about this, because typing it all out on my phone is a pain, and I can't be bothered doing a " well I think this, well I think that" argument. Enjoy defending a company that doesn't give a crap.

I agree that phone posting is a pain.

gwarsh41
23-01-2014, 17:57
GW replaced some missing bases for me, no questions asked. That is the closest they have come to personal help. However Reaper minis has never done anything to personally help me, neither has Microsoft, Intel or Nvidia. EA and blizard have never thanked me, however Valve has. I don't expect GW to go above and beyond to provide me as an individual with anything more than they provide to the rest of the hundreds of thousands of people who play the game. I expect that kind of treatment from the LGS, just like how I expect a game store to have a rewards program, or special events, instead of blaming the game company for not doing anything. When you buy from a GW store, you are buying direct, and you run the risk of losing that extra layer of friendliness.

Graystoak
23-01-2014, 18:06
- maybe the modelers don't want to replace the Eldar aspect warriors because they like the sculpts. Or they know that they only have one shot to replace it, and they don't have the resources or technology to create what they really want them to be yet. Or they have excess stock of the old sculpts and need to wait till it thins out.....

Your not seriously suggesting the people who sculpt miniatures have any say whatsoever in what does and doesn't get released? I've worked as a professional sculptor for 14 years and no one holding the purse strings ever asked my opinion on a business decision!

We're talking about spending time, money and effort to create new units, rules and models when there are existing units desperately in need of modernisation and/or better rule clarification.
Surely that's a bigger investment and risk than just filling the gaps your customers are crying out for you to fill in?

Edit: sorry Theocracity, just realised I quoted you (again)! Didn't look whose post I was reading. It's not personal I promise, we just sit on different sides of the coin on this one!

Theocracity
23-01-2014, 18:12
Your not seriously suggesting the people who sculpt miniatures have any say whatsoever in what does and doesn't get released? I've worked as a professional sculptor for 14 years and no one holding the purse strings ever asked my opinion on a business decision!

We're talking about spending time, money and effort to create new units, rules and models when there are existing units desperately in need of modernisation and/or better rule clarification.
Surely that's a bigger investment and risk than just filling the gaps your customers are crying out for you to fill in?

Maybe. I don't know too much about how their model development process works (beyond the fact that it starts way before the rules process). I'm just spitballing some potential rational reasons (beyond spite or incompetence) why they made the decisions they've made.

Edit: and heh, no worries! I don't take discussions around here personally :).

Graystoak
23-01-2014, 18:54
Glad to hear it, wouldn't be much of a discussion if we all agreed now!

But what everyone does seam to be agreeing on is that what's hurting GW right now is diminishing sales & a steady migration of players to other gaming systems?

Scribe of Khorne
23-01-2014, 18:57
Has the fundamentals of the round based game changed too much in the new edition that it's turned too many players off?

It's hard for me to see - as at my GW the game is stronger than ever, lots of players, everyone's bought into the new books/expansions and we see games of apoc, stronghold assualt, and esclation - as well as 40k, but when I see sign up sheets for the bigger tournaments it's a different landscape - from an event that sold out in weeks to now - seats been handed over to Warhammer!

Did the introduction of the new expansions act as a killing blow to what was a struggling edition?

If this is the case can the players who DON'T like the new 40k explain why?

What's turned you away?

For worldwide 40k has always been the darling of GW - it's the cash cow - but has the milk soured?

You are talking about Gottacon yes? I too was surprised by that, and yes I think 6th, and the rash of releases, has pushed people away. Last I heard, Nanaimo still runs 5th more than 6th Edition.

There is a disconnect between GW and the 40K base I am afraid. Not the legions of fans online, after all you'll always find folks who love more releases, less 'balance' and more 'forge a narrative'.

The base of 40K though, the ones who drop money on new army after new army, are the ones that really fill GW's pockets. That base is the army jumper. The ones who every 4-6 months would buy a new army. Would work on the most competitive lists, and would buy the models to make it happen.

The guy's like me.

However when the target shifts too often, too fast, its impossible for even someone in my position, who BURNED cash at the GW Altar of Plastic, to keep up.

On top of that, they keep pissing on the vocal minority. CSM? Massive hate from multiple segments of the online base. Nids the same. No not EVERYONE is unhappy, but enough people are, and they are unhappy enough, to bitch and complain for months if not (like me) years.

I saw a post over at Naftka, about some Rep proudly claiming GW doesnt care about balance, or competitive players.

If thats the case (IF), then its no wonder they are losing ground in 40K, because competition is what sells a significant portion of 40K, and balance is required for competition OR people need to be able to keep up with the release cycle.

GK are released, all armies are GK (Wolves before that I guess)
DE are released, and how many people loved the models, and the RULES and found them fair, balanced, and unique?
Necrons are released, and all armies are suddenly Necrons.

The space between those releases (and the waves for DE!!!) allowed people to get on board.

Now though, with this cycle? Who has the bloody cash to buy into CSM, DA, Tau, Eldar, SM, Expansions, Data Slates, etc, etc? Its too fast for the army hopper, its not balanced enough for those who care for it, and its too expensive for the casual.

Who is GW aiming for?

Theocracity
23-01-2014, 18:59
Glad to hear it, wouldn't be much of a discussion if we all agreed now!

But what everyone does seam to be agreeing on is that what's hurting GW right now is diminishing sales & a steady migration of players to other gaming systems?

I agree that those are pressures, but I don't know if there's evidence that those are a direct cause of the dip in profits. I'd be interested to see the next report to verify if its a trend or just a function of heavy investment write-offs from last year.

IcedCrow
23-01-2014, 19:01
Who is GW aiming for?

Therein lies the million dollar question.

Konovalev
23-01-2014, 19:07
Did we 40k Gamers defeat Games Workshop??
I don't think so? I think that the market is pretty heavily saturated. In that, for example I've been playing for more than a decade and the longer I've played the less I've needed to buy because of what I have already collected. I've bought less GW products in recent years because I have needed less thanks to previous purchases.

If anyone has "defeated" Games Workshop, it's not the gamers, it's the people who never bought into this hobby to begin with.

Telemachus
23-01-2014, 19:13
Glad to hear it, wouldn't be much of a discussion if we all agreed now!

But what everyone does seam to be agreeing on is that what's hurting GW right now is diminishing sales & a steady migration of players to other gaming systems? I'm sorry, but where is the evidence that people are moving to other gaming systems?

Warseer and its never-ending supply of naysmiths who take every opportunity to decry GW?
Dakka dakka?
Bolter and Chainsword?
The fact that GW's profits are down?

I take it the drop in their profits have nothing to do with the rising costs of -

1. Business rates for their shops.
2. Utility costs such as gas/electricity/telephone/internet.
3. Staff wages for long term staff and bonuses for meeting targets.

The annual returns for several UK based miniature companies don't seem to reflect a huge increase in their own sales.

Unless of course they're lying to the taxman :eek:

Theocracity
23-01-2014, 19:15
I don't think so? I think that the market is pretty heavily saturated. In that, for example I've been playing for more than a decade and the longer I've played the less I've needed to buy because of what I have already collected. I've bought less GW products in recent years because I have needed less thanks to previous purchases.

If anyone has "defeated" Games Workshop, it's not the gamers, it's the people who never bought into this hobby to begin with.

That's one thing I've thought about too. The veterans who have the most complaints about the hobby probably have the least economic voice, simply because they have already bought everything they need. No lowered price is going to get a vet to buy something he already has if he's happy with it.

MusingWarboss
23-01-2014, 19:18
Trying to sell Finecast as anything but awful.



You would rather they tried to sell it as awful? "The rising price of metal means we're using experimental less resin with less safety issues for now until we improve our plastic molds. Don't buy it, its crappy." That sound you hear is a marketing team getting fired.


About the Finecast - I'm sure they really did believe in it when they decided to move to resin. I bet they tested it out on some sculpts and they came out really nicely, I bet they even went as far as spin-casting some to see how that went and they turned out ok-ish, with maybe a few small bubbles; which is why they decided that was an unavoidable aspect of using resin so commissioned the liquid green stuff to sort that out in case anyone complained. About this time the marketing people would have been gearing up to give it a fancy product name and kick the marketing machine into action.

What they didn't take into account was that the above was probably done in small runs, where the casters took a bit of time to get them looking nice for the board meeting and things only really started to turn to bubbly misshapen mess when they went into full production, realised they they had to spend less time to get the models cast, saw the moulds disintegrating as they cast and then the touted metal replacement was released at an unfortunate time (next to an annual price rise) and the fancy product name chosen by the marketing team turned out to be almost the anti-description of what they actually released.

I bet there were a few red faces at GW around that time, along with a few stern words and pressure on the casting team. This would explain why they were bend-over-backwards helpful with people whose models turned up with no face or looked like Han Solo encased in carbonite.



I've never had bad finecast/well what should they have done? - if you've never had bad finecast, lucky you. I was the same until I tried to buy The Deciever, and every box in the GW was missing a face. Trying to degend fine cast at this point is the result of some variation of Stolkholme syndrome. And they should have at least tested it first instead of just shoving it out. Even GW acknowledge that it has failed. The first sensible desicion they've made in years.
...
This is the last I'm posting about this, because typing it all out on my phone is a pain, and I can't be bothered doing a " well I think this, well I think that" argument. Enjoy defending a company that doesn't give a crap.



I don't think anyone's really defending Finecast - though I will note that my only experience with it was positive. I'm just noting that it's silly to think that it was disrespectful that a marketing team tried to sell something.

I'm not defending Finecast of GW here at all, I've had an awful model of a Painboy from them and it's the first model I've actually despised painting due to its material. The anger set in when the syringe snapped off because of an air bubble just behind it from the pressure of the paintbrush on it.

On the other hand my Isabella Von Carstein was a perfect cast, I've not even found a bubble on her. Although she's unpainted or even un-undercoated at the moment her sword has bent just by being stood out on my bookcase, which is really odd and annoying.

I have a friend whose not got a Finecast model that hasn't spontaneously deformed in his foam case. I've gone back to getting metals from ebay. They're the same models in 90% of my case anyway and the metal ones have a satisfying heft (to me). I won't be buying any more Finecast, I don't like the material, there are many out there that feel the same, there are others that feel differently. Forgeworld's resin is much nicer stuff, as is the resins I've seen from other companies, so I have no problem with them or resin in general, just GW's particular mix (luckily I've not had any of the Finecast that FW occasionally uses).

But despite all this, I'm still pretty sure GW didn't intentionally release a duff product, it just turned out that way, at which point I'm sure they realised why you don't see that many companies try to mass-produce a fluffy resin mix in spin-casting machines.

Theocracity
23-01-2014, 19:27
About the Finecast - I'm sure they really did believe in it when they decided to move to resin. I bet they tested it out on some sculpts and they came out really nicely, I bet they even went as far as spin-casting some to see how that went and they turned out ok-ish, with maybe a few small bubbles; which is why they decided that was an unavoidable aspect of using resin so commissioned the liquid green stuff to sort that out in case anyone complained. About this time the marketing people would have been gearing up to give it a fancy product name and kick the marketing machine into action.

What they didn't take into account was that the above was probably done in small runs, where the casters took a bit of time to get them looking nice for the board meeting and things only really started to turn to bubbly misshapen mess when they went into full production, realised they they had to spend less time to get the models cast, saw the moulds disintegrating as they cast and then the touted metal replacement was released at an unfortunate time (next to an annual price rise) and the fancy product name chosen by the marketing team turned out to be almost the anti-description of what they actually released.

I bet there were a few red faces at GW around that time, along with a few stern words and pressure on the casting team. This would explain why they were bend-over-backwards helpful with people whose models turned up with no face or looked like Han Solo encased in carbonite.





I'm not defending Finecast of GW here at all, I've had an awful model of a Painboy from them and it's the first model I've actually despised painting due to its material. The anger set in when the syringe snapped off because of an air bubble just behind it from the pressure of the paintbrush on it.

On the other hand my Isabella Von Carstein was a perfect cast, I've not even found a bubble on her. Although she's unpainted or even un-undercoated at the moment her sword has bent just by being stood out on my bookcase, which is really odd and annoying.

I have a friend whose not got a Finecast model that hasn't spontaneously deformed in his foam case. I've gone back to getting metals from ebay. They're the same models in 90% of my case anyway and the metal ones have a satisfying heft (to me). I won't be buying any more Finecast, I don't like the material, there are many out there that feel the same, there are others that feel differently. Forgeworld's resin is much nicer stuff, as is the resins I've seen from other companies, so I have no problem with them or resin in general, just GW's particular mix (luckily I've not had any of the Finecast that FW occasionally uses).

But despite all this, I'm still pretty sure GW didn't intentionally release a duff product, it just turned out that way, at which point I'm sure they realised why you don't see that many companies try to mass-produce a fluffy resin mix in spin-casting machines.

Well said. That's been my impression of the Finecast situation as well. I've never said that GW doesn't make mistakes - just that it comes by those mistakes rationally. They felt they needed to make the change, gambled on a process that fit their needs but turned out to have quality issues, tried to do what they could to sell but suffered for it and made moves to change course. That's a very different situation than the usual 'they're greedy and think we're stupid' kind of accusations they're usually met with around here.

Scribe of Khorne
23-01-2014, 19:35
Therein lies the million dollar question.

It really is.

My bias is obvious, but I challenge anyone tell me why this WOULDNT sell.

Tight, Balanced Rules, that encourage competitive play (Competitive Players, check)
Fluffy, Balanced Rules, that encourage a wide range of model selection (Modellers, check)
Fluff, and Models, that reflect the decades long history of the setting (Fluff Nuts, check)
Give people a way to get off the ground, without 500-1000 dollars invested in JUST the plastic.

Decrease the random. Encourage balanced competitive books (CSM pure, vs Tau, is NOT balanced, I dont care about any discussions to the contrary) with firm internal and external balance, and keep the fluff inline with why people BOUGHT those thousands of dollars worth of models in the first place. Decrease the rate of release, or release them as OPTIONAL supplements, and make it clear when things are OPTIONAL vs STANDARD.

You want people to buy models GW? Give me a way, and reason, to use them.

Telemachus
23-01-2014, 19:45
It really is.

My bias is obvious, but I challenge anyone tell me why this WOULDNT sell.

Tight, Balanced Rules, that encourage competitive play (Competitive Players, check) - Not everyone is interested in competitive play. (check)

Fluffy, Balanced Rules, that encourage a wide range of model selection (Modellers, check) - Not everyone is interested in how the fluff interacts with the model selection. (check)

Fluff, and Models, that reflect the decades long history of the setting (Fluff Nuts, check) - See my sig. (check)

Give people a way to get off the ground, without 500-1000 dollars invested in JUST the plastic. - Erhm, DV DA plus codex, plus 1 unit to make armies game legal = £100? (check)

Decrease the random. Encourage balanced competitive books (CSM pure, vs Tau, is NOT balanced, I dont care about any discussions to the contrary) with firm internal and external balance, and keep the fluff inline with why people BOUGHT those thousands of dollars worth of models in the first place. Decrease the rate of release, or release them as OPTIONAL supplements, and make it clear when things are OPTIONAL vs STANDARD. - Because real life is ALL about the lack of randomness isn't it? (check)

You want people to buy models GW? Give me a way, and reason, to use them. - Don't need to. It's entirely up to you what you spend your money on. You either want to use them, or you don't; the choice is yours, and yours alone. (check)

Scribe of Khorne
23-01-2014, 19:55
We arent playing 'real life' where yes random happens. You think your going to fight over a random objective in the 'real world' or in 'random terrain'?

Of course the choice is mine, and the choice of a growing number is 'no thanks GW'. Thats the whole point here isnt it? I give you 5 trolls out of 10, because at least you got a response.

Graystoak
23-01-2014, 19:58
Tight, Balanced Rules, that encourage competitive play (Competitive Players, check) - Not everyone is interested in competitive play. (check)

Fluffy, Balanced Rules, that encourage a wide range of model selection (Modellers, check) - Not everyone is interested in how the fluff interacts with the model selection. (check)

Fluff, and Models, that reflect the decades long history of the setting (Fluff Nuts, check) - See my sig. (check)

Give people a way to get off the ground, without 500-1000 dollars invested in JUST the plastic. - Erhm, DV DA plus codex, plus 1 unit to make armies game legal = £100? (check)

Decrease the random. Encourage balanced competitive books (CSM pure, vs Tau, is NOT balanced, I dont care about any discussions to the contrary) with firm internal and external balance, and keep the fluff inline with why people BOUGHT those thousands of dollars worth of models in the first place. Decrease the rate of release, or release them as OPTIONAL supplements, and make it clear when things are OPTIONAL vs STANDARD. - Because real life is ALL about the lack of randomness isn't it? (check)

You want people to buy models GW? Give me a way, and reason, to use them. - Don't need to. It's entirely up to you what you spend your money on. You either want to use them, or you don't; the choice is yours, and yours alone. (check)

I'm interested to know what motivates you to defend GW so passionately and paraphrase anyone who has a bad word to say about them? If you don't mind the personal question.

Gradek
23-01-2014, 20:02
We arent playing 'real life' where yes random happens. You think your going to fight over a random objective in the 'real world' or in 'random terrain'?

Of course the choice is mine, and the choice of a growing number is 'no thanks GW'. Thats the whole point here isnt it? I give you 5 trolls out of 10, because at least you got a response.

But a lot of people like the random elements as it makes the game more fun and interesting. Also, GW has stated a million times that they are not designing a game for competitive play, but for the beer and pretzels crowd. While they may have the target audience wrong (we don't know the numbers), it is clear that competitive play is not near the top of their agenda. Having said that, balance between the armies would be a good thing no matter what your audience was.

Telemachus
23-01-2014, 20:07
... I give you 5 trolls out of 10, because at least you got a response. So I'm a troll for having the audacity to nitpick your post and have a difference of opinion to you? :angel:

When you go about ending points you make in a post with check, don't go in the huff when people do the same back to you.

Back on topic - I notice that your only rebuttal to what I wrote was the fact that I compared your point about randomness to real life; to answer your question -

You think your going to fight over a random objective in the 'real world' or in 'random terrain' - No, I don't think so, I know.

Graystoak
23-01-2014, 20:14
GW has stated a million times that they are not designing a game for competitive play, but for the beer and pretzels crowd.... Having said that, balance between the armies would be a good thing no matter what your audience was.

That statement always sounds like a PR cover up to me. Reading between the lines it looks like,
"we acknowledge that things have gotten a little out of control as far as balance is concerned but at this point it's gonna be pretty tough to do anything about it".

And it is tough to do much about it right now, it's kinda gone too far. I totally agree that we need some randomness to make it fun but my gaming group have gone to Throne of Skulls for 4 consecutive years until we collectively decided not to go this time as the previous year was really not enjoyable due to imbalance. It's a real shame.

Ruination Drinker
23-01-2014, 20:23
:shifty:
I'm interested to know what motivates you to defend GW so passionately and paraphrase anyone who has a bad word to say about them? If you don't mind the personal question.

No one in this forum would ever shill for GW....ever...honest. No one. Nope, just wouldn't happen.

Telemachus
23-01-2014, 20:24
I'm interested to know what motivates you to defend GW so passionately and paraphrase anyone who has a bad word to say about them? If you don't mind the personal question. First off I haven't paraphrased anyone; I've quoted and given a response.

As for it being a personal question? No I don't mind your asking.

I said earlier in the thread; when asked a similar question; I'm not (http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?388361-Did-we-40k-Gamers-defeat-Games-Workshop&p=7045770&viewfull=1#post7045770). I just don't buy into all of the negativity that gets thrown about. I don't see it when I play games, yes people moan about the cost, but people moan about the cost of everything. The other thing is that I don't think that Games Workshop do treat people who play their games any better or any worse than any other games company out there, it's a matter of scale.

I'm sorry I don't fall into the we hates GW because it's cool to on the internet camp, but the amount of hypocrisy and vitriol that is spouted in threads like this, really get my goat.

Vipoid
23-01-2014, 20:26
Tight, Balanced Rules, that encourage competitive play (Competitive Players, check) - Not everyone is interested in competitive play. (check)

So, how do tight, balanced rules inhibit their ability to play friendly/non-competitive games? Do friendly games require inherent imbalance in order to function?

Graystoak
23-01-2014, 20:30
So, how do tight, balanced rules inhibit their ability to play friendly/non-competitive games? Do friendly games require inherent imbalance in order to function?

High five!

Telemachus
23-01-2014, 20:32
So, how do tight, balanced rules inhibit their ability to play friendly/non-competitive games? Do friendly games require inherent imbalance in order to function? I didn't say they did, I said not everyone is interested in competitive play. Some people are quite happy popping into their local GW and playing the rules as they are.

Telemachus
23-01-2014, 20:33
High five! Mature response.

Graystoak
23-01-2014, 20:37
I know, I'm genuinely feeling guilty.

Theocracity
23-01-2014, 20:37
I'm sorry I don't fall into the we hates GW because it's cool to on the internet camp, but the amount of hypocrisy and vitriol that is spouted in threads like this, really get my goat.

I'm in the same camp as you. I don't defend GW because I think it's some paragon of awesomeness; I do so because 40K is a leisure activity for me, and I don't like it when I spend my recreational time here and get drowned in negativity. That's not how I want to spend my time, especially when (in my mind) a lot of the negativity seems to come from the spleen instead of the brain.

The problem with this, as I've often found, is that by combatting it you're engaging in it, which means I'm still dealing with negativity in my leisure time. Therefore I've been trying to choose my battles and limit my time arguing.

Dkoz
23-01-2014, 21:00
Has anyone else noticed that GW is not advertising the Nids collector edition codex on their main page anymore? They still seem to have a good few left but now you have to go find it.

AngryAngel
23-01-2014, 21:00
Alright, I can be as negative about GW as anyone, in regards to their rules. They do some things right however. The models are generally ace, their customer service has been nothing less then stellar for me. Some of their ideas boggle the mind and their rules could use a fair bit of polishing, but they have their good points. Customer service is an area a company can show it cares about repeat business, and in this they do well. So I don't think its really a matter of not caring it is a matter of trying to please everyone.

Honestly, I hope GW stays going for awhile., I'd love to keep playing the game I've played for a long time, despite my complaints of their rules. They just need to perhaps dial back some of this price bloat and nail down a bit more some of their books and I think such would do worlds of good for them, or even like a sale now and then, like the apoc deals that were actual deals, remember that ? I got a ton of stuff then, I started a Tau army just because of such. Which I think is all a very good thing for people to want, and be able to do.

New blood keeps the machine grinding on, as sooner or later everyone gets out. Without bringing in new people, the scene will stagnate and slowly die off and their retail sales need to be a bit more approachable for starting a new decent sized army.

Vipoid
23-01-2014, 21:09
I didn't say they did, I said not everyone is interested in competitive play. Some people are quite happy popping into their local GW and playing the rules as they are.

That might have been your intent; but what you actually appeared to say was that a tight, balanced ruleset wouldn't sell because some people aren't interested in competitive play.

Telemachus
23-01-2014, 21:19
That might have been your intent; but what you actually appeared to say was that a tight, balanced ruleset wouldn't sell because some people aren't interested in competitive play. Nope.

Just checked.

What I said was -


Tight, Balanced Rules, that encourage competitive play (Competitive Players, check) - Not everyone is interested in competitive play. (check)

Absolutely nothing in that quote that says that a 'tight, balanced ruleset wouldn't sell'.

What you read and what you want something to say are, unfortunately, 2 different things.

Vipoid
23-01-2014, 21:21
Absolutely nothing in that quote that says that a 'tight, balanced ruleset wouldn't sell'.

What was the "(check)" for then?

Sgt John Keel
23-01-2014, 21:21
I didn't say they did, I said not everyone is interested in competitive play. Some people are quite happy popping into their local GW and playing the rules as they are.

So, Scribe of Khorne comes up with a list of different things that he thinks will fulfil the desires of competitive players, modellers and fluff bunnies, and you dismiss every point by saying "that doesn't apply to everyone"?

How is that a reasonable response to saying "we'll do this to satisfy these people, and this to satisfy these other people", etc.? Sure, each thing doesn't apply to everyone, and that was accounted for in the list. The point (I assume) was to find some items that together would make most people happy.

Now, if you have some group of people that care about neither the fluff, models nor the gameplay, I'd be happy to hear about why they are involved with the game and why and how GW should cater to them.

hobojebus
23-01-2014, 21:34
Well said. That's been my impression of the Finecast situation as well. I've never said that GW doesn't make mistakes - just that it comes by those mistakes rationally. They felt they needed to make the change, gambled on a process that fit their needs but turned out to have quality issues, tried to do what they could to sell but suffered for it and made moves to change course. That's a very different situation than the usual 'they're greedy and think we're stupid' kind of accusations they're usually met with around here.

The resin they used was 13p a gallon, it wasn't to benefit us, they charge £18 for a model they already had the mold for, and if there is a bad cast it does not matter because they are still £17.74 richer after replacing it.

It was a money based decision and it back fired on them.

Telemachus
23-01-2014, 21:40
What was the "(check)" for then? Sarcasm, Scribe of Khorne ended each of his points with a check; and I did likewise.


So, Scribe of Khorne comes up with a list of different things that he thinks will fulfil the desires of competitive players, modellers and fluff bunnies, and you dismiss every point by saying "that doesn't apply to everyone"? Simply? Because Scribe of Khorne's list doesn't apply to everyone.


How is that a reasonable response to saying "we'll do this to satisfy these people, and this to satisfy these other people", etc.? Sure, each thing doesn't apply to everyone, and that was accounted for in the list. The point (I assume) was to find some items that together would make most people happy. And the Scribe of Khorne's list applied and accounted to everyone who plays 40k how? Why is my response unreasonable?


Now, if you have some group of people that care about neither the fluff, models nor the gameplay, I'd be happy to hear about why they are involved with the game and why and how GW should cater to them. Where exactly did I say this? I rebutted points that were made. If you wish to make additional points to defend someone based on a fallacious argument, feel free.

Theocracity
23-01-2014, 21:42
The resin they used was 13p a gallon, it wasn't to benefit us, they charge £18 for a model they already had the mold for, and if there is a bad cast it does not matter because they are still £17.74 richer after replacing it.

It was a money based decision and it back fired on them.

I never claimed it wasn't a money based decision. But from my understanding the money issue in this case was the rising price of raw metal. They decided they wanted to move their production to a material that wasn't slowly inflating in price like metal but was safer dust-wise than, say, FW's resin (so they wouldn't have to label it as a potential hazard). They took the gamble on Finecast, which backfired but might have bought them a bit more time to move towards plastic-only production.

And I should note you're only including material cost in that estimate, not production, packaging, storage and shipping costs.

Vipoid
23-01-2014, 22:04
Sarcasm, Scribe of Khorne ended each of his points with a check; and I did likewise.

Ah, ok. I hadn't realised you were being sarcastic - I thought you meant 'check' as in reasons why they wouldn't sell (since that was the question you were responding to).

Scribe of Khorne
23-01-2014, 22:05
What I was getting at, was if you could write a rules set that satisfied all of those points, because yes everyone plays for different reasons, would that not be indeed better for the base of the game.

Is a balanced (and anything can be competitive, so lets remove that word as it so offends people) ruleset, mutually exclusive from a fluffy, casual one?

People see balance, and it seems so do GW, as this sin. As if a balanced game must be bland, must be inherently unfun, for everyone except those 'competitive' types. Why?

If a game is balanced, both internally to a codex, and externally, how does that do anything but serve the bottom line of all stakeholders?

A balanced internal faction = more unit selection, which equals more sales and variety at the faction level.
A balanced external faction = more faction selection, which equals more sales and variety at the game level.

There is this perception that balance is not good for the game, but when GW is claimed to not care, its as if thats going to satisfy anyone, when it certainly appears to be the opposite.

IcedCrow
23-01-2014, 22:17
A balanced game would be nice. A balanced game that adhered to background, enforced armies looking like armies, worked hard to make all choices viable, etc... would be good from the game perspective and would allow models that aren't normally used to be used (and bought)

GW has never been one on balance unfortunately, even in the beginning. They swung from catering to hobbyists and narrative, to moving towards the competitive, but bland armies, now back to the narrative, but cannot seem to find a middle that appeases both sides at once.

Telemachus
23-01-2014, 22:18
What I was getting at, was if you could write a rules set that satisfied all of those points, because yes everyone plays for different reasons, would that not be indeed better for the base of the game. Yes it would. When you put things this way, there's no argument at all from me.


Is a balanced (and anything can be competitive, so lets remove that word as it so offends people) ruleset, mutually exclusive from a fluffy, casual one? Yes. In 40k fluff, Space Marines are the dog's ********. When it comes to gameplay? They're the neutered dog's ********.


People see balance, and it seems so do GW, as this sin. As if a balanced game must be bland, must be inherently unfun, for everyone except those 'competitive' types. Why? Because GW balance their games in terms of points; not how good a unit is.


If a game is balanced, both internally to a codex, and externally, how does that do anything but serve the bottom line of all stakeholders?

A balanced internal faction = more unit selection, which equals more sales and variety at the faction level.
A balanced external faction = more faction selection, which equals more sales and variety at the game level. What makes sense to you and me doesn't count - shareholders aren't interested in game balance, they're only interested in bank balance.


There is this perception that balance is not good for the game, but when GW is claimed to not care, its as if thats going to satisfy anyone, when it certainly appears to be the opposite. And herein lies the problem; as far as GW are concerned; the game works the way they want it to. It's as balanced as they want it to be; and at the end of the day?

It's our hobby.

But it's their game.

Theocracity
23-01-2014, 22:21
I think the development argument against balance is that it can be a limiting to an evolving work. For any cool new idea you come up with, the question 'but is it balanced' must be asked - and must be answered versus all previously created units and factions. That can therefore limit your creativity, limit your progress, and over a long enough time scale create stagnation.

One way to solve stagnation as a problem is to occasionally reboot the whole rules set as a new game - but obviously that's also pretty difficult for something of 40K's scale.

While I'm not arguing that balanced rules have their benefits, I think it's more likely that GW would rather not limit their creativity and therefore puts balance as a secondary priority - especially considering the creative background of the hobby as a whole.

Valkyrie Sky
23-01-2014, 22:23
The buy in for an army is £60 (codex and MiniBRB) or £95 (DV and Codex) if you want to play a marine army.


For me the thing that killed GW this edition, is the shafting of mech and CC.. Sure you can still do that, but when MC's and gunlines are the norm.. trying to counter it, requires you to buy the same.. and that leads people to ebay instead of the oft crashing website.

You sir, just demonstrated why GW player base is so bland with Space Marines everywhere.
What army do you assume players would play when we make half lies like " warhammer isnt $900 expensive, rather
we can have cheap DV armies?". Of course People would get lured in by the illusion and excitement of warhammer as being
something affordable. This is why GW needs fast sales, to hit you before you wake up from that illusion.

Telemachus
23-01-2014, 22:24
I think the development argument against balance is that it can be a limiting to an evolving work. For any cool new idea you come up with, the question 'but is it balanced' must be asked - and must be answered versus all previously created units and factions. That can therefore limit your creativity, limit your progress, and over a long enough time scale create stagnation.

One way to solve stagnation as a problem is to occasionally reboot the whole rules set as a new game - but obviously that's also pretty difficult for something of 40K's scale.

While I'm not arguing that balanced rules have their benefits, I think it's more likely that GW would rather not limit their creativity and therefore puts balance as a secondary priority - especially considering the creative background of the hobby as a whole. That's a (imho) very fair and valid point. Where's the like button?

hobojebus
23-01-2014, 22:34
I never claimed it wasn't a money based decision. But from my understanding the money issue in this case was the rising price of raw metal. They decided they wanted to move their production to a material that wasn't slowly inflating in price like metal but was safer dust-wise than, say, FW's resin (so they wouldn't have to label it as a potential hazard). They took the gamble on Finecast, which backfired but might have bought them a bit more time to move towards plastic-only production.

And I should note you're only including material cost in that estimate, not production, packaging, storage and shipping costs.

You've missed the point there friend, its 13p a gallon yet finecast was more expensive even though they already had the molds done, there was no large investment on their part yet they charge stupid money for a model made with a much cheaper product.

If finecast models had been cheaper people could of forgiven teething problems, it was the poor quality combined with the price rise that pissed most of us off.

Graystoak
23-01-2014, 22:43
What makes sense to you and me doesn't count - shareholders aren't interested in game balance, they're only interested in bank balance.

That is the most sensible thing I've heard (read?), you say.



I'm sorry I don't fall into the we hates GW because it's cool to on the internet camp,..

Do you really think people on this forum hate GW? Why the hell would anyone spend their time on a forum talking about something they hate?

I love GW. I love them for being part of my life since I was 13 years old. I love them for producing the best plastic kits I've ever seen. I love their IP, their imagery and background. I love spending my time building, converting, painting and gaming with their miniatures. I love reading my codex over and over again and the thrill of seeing a new miniature for the first time. I love the fact that they are a massive, successful British company.

So why do I bitch about them on warseer?

Because I hate what they are doing to my hobby right now. I hate the greed that I perceive in every price hike. I hate the lazy, lack lustre writing of Codex's and White Dwarf now days. I hate the way they treat their staff and obsess over sales (yes I do know people who have and do work for GW in various capacities). Most of all I hate the fact that me and my 5 gaming buddies have been playing together for over ten years (some of em over 20 years!), and suddenly everyone's ditched 40k and are playing F###-ing Drop Zone Commander and whatever that WW2 game is called and buying a load of other 'starter sets' for games I don't care a toss about....

And because it feels good to get it off my chest.

ehlijen
23-01-2014, 22:48
You've missed the point there friend, its 13p a gallon yet finecast was more expensive even though they already had the molds done, there was no large investment on their part yet they charge stupid money for a model made with a much cheaper product.

If finecast models had been cheaper people could of forgiven teething problems, it was the poor quality combined with the price rise that pissed most of us off.

The changeover to a new material isn't as easy as pouring something else into the mold. You need to set up new supply chains, use different sealing/cleaning agents and procedures and most importantly train your staff in using this new material.

I'm not saying their price wasn't outrageous (especially given the quality delivered) or that GW deserve anything less than derision for what they tried to pull with finecast, but I don't think it is correct to say it wasn't an investment.

Telemachus
23-01-2014, 22:50
That is the most sensible thing I've heard (read?), you say.



Do you really think people on this forum hate GW? Why the hell would anyone spend their time on a forum talking about something they hate?

I love GW. I love them for being part of my life since I was 13 years old. I love them for producing the best plastic kits I've ever see. I love their IP, their imagery and background. I love spending my time building, converting, painting and gaming with their miniatures. I love reading my codex over and over again and the thrill of seeing a new miniature for the first time. I love the fact that they are a massive, successful British company.

So why do I bitch about them on Warseer.

Because I hate what they are doing to my hobby right now. I hate the greed that I perceive in every price hike. I hate the lazy, lack lustre writing of Codex's and White Dwarf now days. I hate the way they treat their staff and obsess over sales (yes I do know people who have and do work for GW in various capacities). Most of all I hate the fact that me and my 5 gaming buddies have been playing together for over ten years (some of em over 20 years!), and suddenly everyone's ditched 40k and are playing ********** Drop Zone Commander and whatever that WW2 game is called and buying a load of other 'starter sets' for games I don't care a toss about....

And because it feels good to get it off my chest. Good.

I'm glad you got that off your chest.

And do you know what?

Now that we've got past the pish internet reasons for hating what's happened to GW and got to the crux of the matter?

I agree with most of what you've said. It's been one of my hobbies (on and off) since 1992.

Graystoak
23-01-2014, 22:51
I knew we'd find some common ground eventually.

Theocracity
23-01-2014, 22:53
You've missed the point there friend, its 13p a gallon yet finecast was more expensive even though they already had the molds done, there was no large investment on their part yet they charge stupid money for a model made with a much cheaper product.

If finecast models had been cheaper people could of forgiven teething problems, it was the poor quality combined with the price rise that pissed most of us off.

As noted earlier in the thread, the release was poorly timed from a marketing point of view and coincided with yearly price increases. Plus I'm sure the price had to compensate for the investment in installing spin-casting machinery, mothballing the old machinery, getting rid of material stock, storage space for old metal stock alongside sufficient inventory of new stock, production time spent on catching up enough Finecast for the release, extra manpower to QA the finished product due to the obvious quality issues, and extra margin to pad for the expenses involved in customer service actions and lost sales caused by pissed off customers.

I'm not saying that Finecast and it's associated expenses were hunky dory. I'm saying that simplifying the story down to greed is not very useful for anything except as a way to vent.

Valkyrie Sky
23-01-2014, 22:57
Do you really think people on this forum hate GW? Why the hell would anyone spend their time on a forum talking about something they hate?

I love GW. I love them for being part of my life since I was 13 years old.

I agree with you completely, I too love GW as well ever since I was a kid, so I want to see GW continued to prosper positively.
People only express emotions on subjects they care for, positive or negative they have to give a **** to be here in the first place.

I really cant help but :eyebrows: feel the people that says "haters are here to hate only for sake of hating" are the ones that
hated their parents when they tried to apply some form of rule and discipline.


Because I hate what they are doing to my hobby right now. I hate the greed that I perceive in every price hike. I hate the lazy, lack lustre writing of Codex's and White Dwarf now days. I hate the way they treat their staff and obsess over sales (yes I do know people who have and do work for GW in various capacities). Most of all I hate the fact that me and my 5 gaming buddies have been playing together for over ten years (some of em over 20 years!), and suddenly everyone's ditched 40k and are playing ********** Drop Zone and whatever that WW2 game is called and buying a load of other 'starter sets' for games I don't care a toss about....

And because it feels good to get it off my chest.
All too true. :yes:

Seriqolm
23-01-2014, 22:59
That is the most sensible thing I've heard (read?), you say.



Do you really think people on this forum hate GW? Why the hell would anyone spend their time on a forum talking about something they hate?

I love GW. I love them for being part of my life since I was 13 years old. I love them for producing the best plastic kits I've ever seen. I love their IP, their imagery and background. I love spending my time building, converting, painting and gaming with their miniatures. I love reading my codex over and over again and the thrill of seeing a new miniature for the first time. I love the fact that they are a massive, successful British company.

So why do I bitch about them on warseer?

Because I hate what they are doing to my hobby right now. I hate the greed that I perceive in every price hike. I hate the lazy, lack lustre writing of Codex's and White Dwarf now days. I hate the way they treat their staff and obsess over sales (yes I do know people who have and do work for GW in various capacities). Most of all I hate the fact that me and my 5 gaming buddies have been playing together for over ten years (some of em over 20 years!), and suddenly everyone's ditched 40k and are playing F###-ing Drop Zone Commander and whatever that WW2 game is called and buying a load of other 'starter sets' for games I don't care a toss about....

And because it feels good to get it off my chest.



And there you have it, a harsh lesson in life, get use to it, it will happen again just don't let it eat you up and turn yourself into a cynical old person. Remember nothing ever stays the same so try and look for the good in the world, there is plenty of it out there.

Theocracity
23-01-2014, 23:00
I really cant help but :eyebrows: feel the people that says "haters are here to hate only for sake of hating" are the ones that
hated their parents when they tried to apply some form of rule and discipline.


So in this metaphor, are we the parents and GW the kid? If so, it seems like our attempts at discipline are just the parents yelling at each other while the kid does what he wants - oh, and the parents have no authority to compel the kid to do anything. ;)

Graystoak
23-01-2014, 23:00
People only express emotions on subjects they care for, positive or negative they have to give a **** to be here in the first place.

That should be posted at the beginning of every thread.

hobojebus
23-01-2014, 23:03
The changeover to a new material isn't as easy as pouring something else into the mold. You need to set up new supply chains, use different sealing/cleaning agents and procedures and most importantly train your staff in using this new material.

I'm not saying their price wasn't outrageous (especially given the quality delivered) or that GW deserve anything less than derision for what they tried to pull with finecast, but I don't think it is correct to say it wasn't an investment.

I didn't say it wasn't an investment given that you posted a reply i assumed you'd read what i wrote, i said it wasn't a large one in comparison to say making a new set of molds, any money spent on cleaning agents would of been compensated by the massive saving made on the resin costs.

Seriqolm
23-01-2014, 23:08
People only express emotions on subjects they care for, positive or negative they have to give a **** to be here in the first place.





Though that same emotion will cloud judgement, it is the malady of the internet which send debates around and around in circles.

Theocracity
23-01-2014, 23:10
I didn't say it wasn't an investment given that you posted a reply i assumed you'd read what i wrote, i said it wasn't a large one in comparison to say making a new set of molds, any money spent on cleaning agents would of been compensated by the massive saving made on the resin costs.

Out of curiosity, do you know how much their metal cost per gallon or equivalent unit? That might provide a better way to evaluate how much they saved in resin, given that we can only guess the amount of investment cost involved.

Valkyrie Sky
23-01-2014, 23:12
So in this metaphor, are we the parents and GW the kid? If so, it seems like our attempts at discipline are just the parents yelling at each other while the kid does what he wants - oh, and the parents have no authority to compel the kid to do anything. ;)
And what does that make the legion of sugar coating fanboys? Let me guess, parents of Amanda Knox?
No authority of getting the kid to do anything right? oh... so thats why GW's annual performance is doing so awesome! hahahahaha... no.

That should be posted at the beginning of every thread.
We are all humans after all. Just sometimes people forget or overlook things when ideas collide.

Graystoak
23-01-2014, 23:16
True enough.

Ok so here's another thing I don't get. Why don't they ever have any sales or offers? If you buy a one click 'Heldrake swarm' or whatever why does it still cost the same as three separate Heldrakes? I mean where is the incentive to buy more?

I don't know much about sales and marketing but I'm pretty sure that if you do something like 10% off Tyranids the month the new Codex comes out, your gonna sell a lot of Tyranids that month. That must be good for business as people who wouldn't have bought the codex or a starter box will get hooked in on the discount. People who we're intending to spend £100 will probably spend £20-£50 more while there are bargains to be had.

Scribe of Khorne
23-01-2014, 23:18
Yes it would. When you put things this way, there's no argument at all from me.

Yes. In 40k fluff, Space Marines are the dog's ********. When it comes to gameplay? They're the neutered dog's ********.

Because GW balance their games in terms of points; not how good a unit is.

What makes sense to you and me doesn't count - shareholders aren't interested in game balance, they're only interested in bank balance.

And herein lies the problem; as far as GW are concerned; the game works the way they want it to. It's as balanced as they want it to be; and at the end of the day?

It's our hobby.

But it's their game.

Stakeholders, vs Shareholders. I (we?) hold no shares, but we have a stake in GW, in the game of 40K.

My argument is that a balanced game, where a true effort is made to introduce balance, would be for the benefit of all stakeholders, of which the Shareholders are just one.

This is how any successful company should approach their work. The workplace must be solid, else the product will suffer. The company must be profitable, else the shareholders will leave. The clients, or customers, must be happy, else they take their time, and money, elsewhere.

These things should be basic, however what do we see? If the clients, or customers of GW where happy, why would sales be dropping? Yearly, in a trend for years. Why would competitors be springing up, and seemingly (I dont know other that face time, and wall space at the shop) growing?

I dont believe REALLY GW is a growing, healthy, successful company. So who is being failed out of that trinity? Are the Employees happy? Are we as a base of the game happy? Are the shareholders happy with a company with decreasing sales who have made every cut they can over the last few years?

Thats what I wonder.

Ssilmath
23-01-2014, 23:20
http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat440161a&prodId=prod2340100a

170 dollars for the bundle, costs 259 dollars normally.

http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat440300a&prodId=prod2340106a

90 dollars for the bundle, costs 107.50 normally.

Theocracity
23-01-2014, 23:23
And what does that make the legion of sugar coating fanboys? Let me guess, parents of Amanda Knox?
No authority of getting the kid to do anything right? oh... so thats why GW's annual performance is doing so awesome! hahahahaha... no.


I've spent plenty of time in this thread with my own assessments of their financials so I won't reiterate that. But let me ask you this - do you think that if GW's performance continues to decline that it will suddenly do what its customers want? Or will it do what its shareholders want? If your goal is to make a money-losing company profitable, then making large scale structural changes in order to belatedly appeal to truculent former customers isn't going to be high on your list of solutions.

None of us are GW's parents, and our influence on their behavior is indirect, long term, and has no guarantee of creating the outcomes we want. A healthier way to handle the topic is to figure out what you do have control over - your own happiness and outlook on the hobby.

Valkyrie Sky
23-01-2014, 23:25
True enough.

Ok so here's another thing I don't get. Why don't they ever have any sales or offers? If you buy a one click 'Heldrake swarm' or whatever why does it still cost the same as three separate Heldrakes? I mean where is the incentive to buy more?

I don't know much about sales and marketing but I'm pretty sure that if you do something like 10% off Tyranids the month the new Codex comes out, your gonna sell a lot of Tyranids that month. That must be good for business as people who wouldn't have bought the codex or a starter box will get hooked in on the discount. People who we're intending to spend £100 will probably spend £20-£50 more while there are bargains to be had.

Because GW believes they have enough grasp over our compulsive desires I guess, that we'll
buy them either way discounts or no discounts. That or they think we can't do math... its one way or the other.

Although from xmas 2013 from the 25% off deals all the way into Tyranid swarm deal we have now,
Im hoping those bundle are to stay or are these the new battleforces hmmm.

Graystoak
23-01-2014, 23:28
http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat440161a&prodId=prod2340100a

170 dollars for the bundle, costs 259 dollars normally.

http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat440300a&prodId=prod2340106a

90 dollars for the bundle, costs 107.50 normally.

Ah, I didn't know about those... Thanks

Seriqolm
23-01-2014, 23:33
True enough.

Ok so here's another thing I don't get. Why don't they ever have any sales or offers? If you buy a one click 'Heldrake swarm' or whatever why does it still cost the same as three separate Heldrakes? I mean where is the incentive to buy more?

I don't know much about sales and marketing but I'm pretty sure that if you do something like 10% off Tyranids the month the new Codex comes out, your gonna sell a lot of Tyranids that month. That must be good for business as people who wouldn't have bought the codex or a starter box will get hooked in on the discount. People who we're intending to spend £100 will probably spend £20-£50 more while there are bargains to be had.


Because they are a manufacturer as well as a retailer, its similar to reducing prices, in order to make sufficient profit (remember profit isn't just about big pay outs for shareholders, its about reinvesting in new products and the future of the company) they have to sell exponentially more product to make up the shortfall in selling it at a higher price if they misjudge the demand they would be out of pocket and lose money. Though you are seeing value deals in the new Strikeforce/Naggaroth/Swarm boxes from the last few codices/armybook releases, this is a better way to bring value than sales it is more manageable and less risky.

Valkyrie Sky
23-01-2014, 23:34
I've spent plenty of time in this thread with my own assessments of their financials so I won't reiterate that. But let me ask you this - do you think that if GW's performance continues to decline that it will suddenly do what its customers want? Or will it do what its shareholders want? If your goal is to make a money-losing company profitable, then making large scale structural changes in order to belatedly appeal to truculent former customers isn't going to be high on your list of solutions.

None of us are GW's parents, and our influence on their behavior is indirect, long term, and has no guarantee of creating the outcomes we want. A healthier way to handle the topic is to figure out what you do have control over - your own happiness and outlook on the hobby.
Thats the thing, GW will only do what share holders want. The problem is, the shareholders while looking at the numbers dont know why the numbers are the way they are
since they have never stepped inside a warhammer store. Now, Im just amused to see how much flesh can GW can cut away every year to feed the dogs before trauma shock
sets in. Im talking about closing stores, removing staffs btw... just to balance the numbers for stock holders.

Theocracity
23-01-2014, 23:42
Thats the thing, GW will only do what share holders want. The problem is, the shareholders while looking at the numbers dont know why the numbers are the way they are
since they have never stepped inside a warhammer store. Now, Im just amused to see how much flesh can GW can cut away every year to feed the dogs before trauma shock
sets in. Im talking about closing stores, removing staffs btw... just to balance the numbers for stock holders.

That's what I was talking about too. I get more pleasure out of being creative with the tools GW gives us and playing games than fretting over its business direction or imagining its downfall, but to each their own.

Seriqolm
23-01-2014, 23:42
Thats the thing, GW will only do what share holders want. The problem is, the shareholders while looking at the numbers dont know why the numbers are the way they are
since they have never stepped inside a warhammer store. Now, Im just amused to see how much flesh can GW can cut away every year to feed the dogs before trauma shock
sets in. Im talking about closing stores, removing staffs btw... just to balance the numbers for stock holders.



You really think the owners of the company ie the major shareholders don't get a detailed rundown of the workings and expenditure of GW when they've invested millions of pounds into the company? and then have experienced financiers look over those numbers.

Theocracity
23-01-2014, 23:45
You really think the owners of the company ie the major shareholders don't get a detailed rundown of the workings and expenditure of GW when they've invested millions of pounds into the company? and then have experienced financiers look over those numbers.

Maybe they need to set foot in the stores and get business advice from unsupervised 12 year olds and assorted manchildren....;)


I kid, I kid....

Valkyrie Sky
23-01-2014, 23:45
You really think the owners of the company ie the major shareholders don't get a detailed rundown of the workings and expenditure of GW when they've invested millions of pounds into the company? and then have experienced financiers look over those numbers.Oh I know they do, sugarcoated version with no drawbacks though! :cool:

Maybe they need to set foot in the stores and get business advice from unsupervised 12 year olds and assorted manchildren....;)


I kid, I kid....
Thats absolutely disgusting.

Theocracity
23-01-2014, 23:53
Oh I know they do, sugarcoated version with no drawbacks though! :cool:

I know you're being facetious, but accountability is a big deal in business. If you're faking the reports you create for major shareholders, it will soon not be your job to create reports.


Thats absolutely disgusting.

Tell me about it. Never walk in after an all-day Apocalypse tournament either - the smell will make your hair curl! ;)

insectum7
23-01-2014, 23:53
Thats absolutely disgusting.

Albeit really funny. :)

Valkyrie Sky
23-01-2014, 23:58
I know you're being facetious, but accountability is a big deal in business. If you're faking the reports you create for major shareholders, it will soon not be your job to create reports.



Tell me about it. Never walk in after an all-day Apocalypse tournament either - the smell will make your hair curl! ;)
You have never been to AGM have you. It shows.

Still disgusting sir, I expected more maturity.

Seriqolm
23-01-2014, 23:58
Oh I know they do, sugarcoated version with no drawbacks though! :cool:

The owners of GW have been the same companies for quite a long time I don't think they are that naive and would fall for such immature tactics by the senior management.

Wolf Lord Balrog
24-01-2014, 00:05
I'm gonna reiterate the point I made 12 hours and 5 pages ago: its the prices. I wouldn't care nearly as much that GW writes shoddy rules, and leaves them shoddy for months to years at a time, if the models and books didn't cost so damn much. And where I live, in the backyard of GW's U.S. headquarters, it is telling: there are maybe half as many active 40k players as there were 10 years ago. People are moving on, either to other miniatures games, or leaving miniatures behind altogether for other pursuits.

Valkyrie Sky
24-01-2014, 00:10
The owners of GW have been the same companies for quite a long time I don't think they are that naive and would fall for such immature tactics by the senior management.
No one will ever admit to having a flawed tactic during the meeting. Overly optimistic, arrogant .
Its the share holders that would fall for the tactics...

Theocracity
24-01-2014, 00:24
You have never been to AGM have you. It shows.

I can say with honesty that I have not. I can also say that I've sort of lost the plot of this discussion, and am curious why GW execs sugar coating a shareholder report is relevant to consumer complaints.


Still disgusting sir, I expected more maturity.

Haha, aw come on. I find a little self-aware humor among us manchildren to be the height of maturity ;).

Seriqolm
24-01-2014, 00:55
No one will ever admit to having a flawed tactic during the meeting. Overly optimistic, arrogant .
Its the share holders that would fall for the tactics...


Ah! I see, you confuse confidence with arrogance and lying to your owners, easily done by people who have never held such lofty positions and whom play armchair CEO's on the internet.

Inquisitor Kallus
24-01-2014, 01:05
True enough.

Ok so here's another thing I don't get. Why don't they ever have any sales or offers? If you buy a one click 'Heldrake swarm' or whatever why does it still cost the same as three separate Heldrakes? I mean where is the incentive to buy more?

I don't know much about sales and marketing but I'm pretty sure that if you do something like 10% off Tyranids the month the new Codex comes out, your gonna sell a lot of Tyranids that month. That must be good for business as people who wouldn't have bought the codex or a starter box will get hooked in on the discount. People who we're intending to spend £100 will probably spend £20-£50 more while there are bargains to be had.

Because they believe it devalues the product. Why buy it now when I can get it 30% off at Christmas etc.... . It's not like their product is a clothing line. I fully understand why they feel this way but it isn't paticularly great for business. They used to have sales/store openings and indeed Apocalypse had some sale like value product (10 Russ, 3 vindicators linebreaker squadron etc...)

IcedCrow
24-01-2014, 01:12
That is exactly it.

frozenwastes
24-01-2014, 01:41
The thing about a tight, clear and balanced rules set is that those qualities are actually more important for non-competitive play than they are for competitive play.

The competitive players will work it out. They'll figure out which army is the best and which build is the best and get the job done. The organizers will figure out the answers to rules issues for their events and the games will be played.

But when casual gamers get together to play a game and something that sounds awesome in the fictional description is terrible because of balance issues, it breaks down. And when they're looking at rules and trying to figure out the best way to resolve things, they have no recourse but to admit the rules don't work and roll a d6 to randomly determine which way the rules will go.

Bad rules get in the way of people who are more casual way more than they do for the competitive types.

Seriqolm
24-01-2014, 01:46
The thing about a tight, clear and balanced rules set is that those qualities are actually more important for non-competitive play than they are for competitive play.

The competitive players will work it out. They'll figure out which army is the best and which build is the best and get the job done. The organizers will figure out the answers to rules issues for their events and the games will be played.

But when casual gamers get together to play a game and something that sounds awesome in the fictional description is terrible because of balance issues, it breaks down. And when they're looking at rules and trying to figure out the best way to resolve things, they have no recourse but to admit the rules don't work and roll a d6 to randomly determine which way the rules will go.

Bad rules get in the way of people who are more casual way more than they do for the competitive types.


So are we talking more balance within the rules or balanced rules? because if its the latter you can forget about any narrative gameplay as everyone will have the same units which do the same things, every army will be a mirror image of each other and the character of the armies will be removed.

frozenwastes
24-01-2014, 02:00
So are we talking more balance within the rules or balanced rules? because if its the latter you can forget about any narrative gameplay as everyone will have the same units which do the same things, every army will be a mirror image of each other and the character of the armies will be removed.

Whichever answer that communicates what my original post is about rather than this bizarre idea that you have to remove character from the armies and make everything the same in order for it to work.

Scribe of Khorne
24-01-2014, 02:15
Whichever answer that communicates what my original post is about rather than this bizarre idea that you have to remove character from the armies and make everything the same in order for it to work.

Indeed, this.

Lets not devolve into the typical pedantic nerds that we are.

We want balance, not mirror images. Balance doesnt even need to be perfect, but at least an effort needs to be made so that we dont have CSM vs Tau for example, or Heldrakes vs Mutilators.

Scribe of Khorne
24-01-2014, 02:23
GW making bad choices would seem to be a given. GW itself being bad is hardly the point. They sell less now, than they used to. Less people are signing up to play at tournaments (the original post in the thread), and GW itself appears to be washing its hands of 'balance' in favour of flooding us with releases.

Despite these positions, they are losing market share, losing sales, and losing share value. Why?

Thats the point here.

Ssilmath
24-01-2014, 02:26
There have been a number of theories put forward, from poor management to just having a lot of expenses last year to increasing overhead costs to normal cycles. I'm sure there are a large number of reasons why, Scribe. But anytime somebody suggests something other than "GW sucks", we get slapped with the 'fanboy' label and immediately assumed to be invalid.

IcedCrow
24-01-2014, 02:48
There have been a number of theories put forward, from poor management to just having a lot of expenses last year to increasing overhead costs to normal cycles. I'm sure there are a large number of reasons why, Scribe. But anytime somebody suggests something other than "GW sucks", we get slapped with the 'fanboy' label and immediately assumed to be invalid.

Its called trolling and they do it to get an emotional response out of you.

Asmodai48
24-01-2014, 03:14
Oh yeah I'm the big bad arch villain fanboy that eats bad little trolls :)

Nice to know :)

Scribe of Khorne
24-01-2014, 03:28
IcedCrow is a troll, and I mean that in the nicest way possible. Still a troll though. :]

AngryAngel
24-01-2014, 04:27
Sales can move their product, at least it builds peoples enjoyment and happiness with the product and company/store doing it for them. Not everyone would wait for any random sale to come about but it would move lots of product whenever it hits. Though they don't need sales randomly but just some price drops, as opposed to raises and they'd see perhaps some good will sent their way as well as a lot of money, as no one would know when and if they'd change their minds.

gLOBS
24-01-2014, 04:46
The biggest point is that love it or hate it it shows everyone cares. Most would agree that they are upset because they want better and more from GW.

AngryAngel
24-01-2014, 05:27
I would tend to agree, anyone who posts cares and wants better. ( I say that for most, some I think just may wish doom ) There are extremes on both sides of these issues but I like to believe we all want 40k to thrive and make changes for the better.

Ssilmath
24-01-2014, 05:34
I would tend to agree, anyone who posts cares and wants better. ( I say that for most, some I think just may wish doom ) There are extremes on both sides of these issues but I like to believe we all want 40k to thrive and make changes for the better.

I think most of the conflict comes from people having differing opinions of what those changes for the better would be.

m1acca1551
24-01-2014, 05:39
No... You 40k players feed GW... Every new release of SM but in blue/red/grey/silver makes them happy :p

GW does not care about rules, they understand that with comp and house rules what they offer can be ironed out without them doing to much play testing.

I'd say in regards to your comment, it's quite the opposite, GW have been able to cut away many of the smaller games and still be able to sell miniatures to a hungry audience, so GW will defeat themselves.

AngryAngel
24-01-2014, 05:50
I think most of the conflict comes from people having differing opinions of what those changes for the better would be.

So long as both sides can always voice their opinions, I generally have no real issues. I don't think either side of the " I love it " or " I hate it " have all the answers, I think they lie somewhere in between usually. It's the extremists that need to be watched of either side.

Valkyrie Sky
24-01-2014, 08:05
Ah! I see, you confuse confidence with arrogance and lying to your owners, easily done by people who have never held such lofty positions and whom play armchair CEO's on the internet.
Incorrect, someone people are willing to say the fact GW has been alive for so long, is a display in itself, hence arrogance.
Your insults aside, you should learn to read context before embarrassing yourself.
Insults like "arm chair CEO on the internet", I love it sir, I love it infact I welcome it. You want to bring in real life accomplishments and qualifications as a way to show
validity and credentials to be able to give an opinion?

Bring it, because I have the confidence to back it up, do you? In fact, if you must do it this way, against anyone's better judgement,
feel free to list your assets, and all your investments (sure include your wife's) . If mine doesn't at least double yours, I'll kiss your feet and ego.

Now, if you don't have the confidence to do so (due to your ego), or you think this whole concept is stupid (yep)
then you should rethink about making such insults so easily, because there are people out there that can put money to their mouth.

Graystoak
24-01-2014, 08:20
It's a sure sign someone is losing an argument when they stop talking subject and result to insulting those who disagree with them.

So long as both sides can always voice their opinions, I generally have no real issues. I don't think either side of the " I love it " or " I hate it " have all the answers, I think they lie somewhere in between usually. It's the extremists that need to be watched of either side.

Absolutely. You can't really discuss a topic like this without sighting the reasons for peoples I'll feeling towards the company and/or it's decisions. And yet It's hard to say anything negative about GW without the apologists getting defensive. Or the reverse I guess.

Valkyrie Sky
24-01-2014, 08:25
Or the reverse I guess.

That is the words of the wise. Something imperfect will always have 2 sides... both positive and negative.
To be able to appreciate, respect, and realize them all is the first step into perfecting / bettering it.
Its ironic all the insults directed towards me so far in this thread, the moment I retorted I get threats and reports for harassment.
I guess this is what happens when Im speaking against a mass of fans.

Telemachus
24-01-2014, 09:03
High five!


Mature response.


I know, I'm genuinely feeling guilty. I really need to get a breathalyser fitted to my laptop.
One that locks my keyboard when I get over the legal limit for typing. That was actually quite funny and didn't deserve my petulant response. :o

Seriqolm
24-01-2014, 11:11
Incorrect, someone people are willing to say the fact GW has been alive for so long, is a display in itself, hence arrogance.
Your insults aside, you should learn to read context before embarrassing yourself.
Insults like "arm chair CEO on the internet", I love it sir, I love it infact I welcome it. You want to bring in real life accomplishments and qualifications as a way to show
validity and credentials to be able to give an opinion?

Bring it, because I have the confidence to back it up, do you? In fact, if you must do it this way, against anyone's better judgement,
feel free to list your assets, and all your investments (sure include your wife's) . If mine doesn't at least double yours, I'll kiss your feet and ego.

Now, if you don't have the confidence to do so (due to your ego), or you think this whole concept is stupid (yep)
then you should rethink about making such insults so easily, because there are people out there that can put money to their mouth.


So are you a CEO of a multinational company with a turnover of in excess of £100 million pounds per year?

Graystoak
24-01-2014, 13:06
I really need to get a breathalyser fitted to my laptop.
One that locks my keyboard when I get over the legal limit for typing. That was actually quite funny and didn't deserve my petulant response. :o

Ah don't sweat it, I was being a little immature. I just liked his post and didn't really know how to express that. As I think you said yourself, it would be good to have a 'like' option for posts you agree with rather than quoting all the time.

Theocracity
24-01-2014, 13:30
I really need to get a breathalyser fitted to my laptop.
One that locks my keyboard when I get over the legal limit for typing. That was actually quite funny and didn't deserve my petulant response. :o


Ah don't sweat it, I was being a little immature. I just liked his post and didn't really know how to express that. As I think you said yourself, it would be good to have a 'like' option for posts you agree with rather than quoting all the time.

I hate Entourage, but if there was ever a time to say 'hug it out' it'd be now ;).

Eddiethehott
24-01-2014, 13:42
The reason I had to get out of the warhams game was due to the prices just getting outrageous. I'm not a wealthy guy and it was getting to the point where I'd only ever be able to afford anything was when I got my tax returns.

There is just no reason that a box of ten core should cost close to 40 bucks.

hobojebus
24-01-2014, 14:00
Out of curiosity, do you know how much their metal cost per gallon or equivalent unit? That might provide a better way to evaluate how much they saved in resin, given that we can only guess the amount of investment cost involved.

A hundred pounds of lead is roughly(a little over) the equal of a gallon and that'd be about £40.

As i cant find what white metal is an alloy off its hard to make a definitive example but scrap prices go from £10 per one hundred pounds and up.

Therefore as a very rough estimation for every gallon of failcast they save £9.87 and possible more than that but without knowing the contents of gw white metal i cant make a more accurate guess.

Theocracity
24-01-2014, 14:22
A hundred pounds of lead is roughly(a little over) the equal of a gallon and that'd be about £40.

As i cant find what white metal is an alloy off its hard to make a definitive example but scrap prices go from £10 per one hundred pounds and up.

Therefore as a very rough estimation for every gallon of failcast they save £9.87 and possible more than that but without knowing the contents of gw white metal i cant make a more accurate guess.

I appreciate the research. Are those comparable values though? Your £10 estimate is for 100 pounds of metal, which seems to me like a lot more quantity of material than a gallon of resin.

Telemachus
24-01-2014, 14:37
I hate Entourage, but if there was ever a time to say 'hug it out' it'd be now ;). Lol. :D

Words for the word god.

frozenwastes
24-01-2014, 15:47
So are you a CEO of a multinational company with a turnover of in excess of £100 million pounds per year?

When you dismiss ideas based on the person making them and not engage with the actual content of what they are saying, then that's the very definition of the ad hominem fallacy (I'm not talking about an ad hominem attack as people often misuse the term to just mean a personal attack)

https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/ad-hominem

As soon as someone says something like "but who are you to say that?" you know they've departed from dealing with the actual content of what you are saying. The discussion is largely over at this point.

--

Is GW's customer base growing or shrinking?

When people give the reason they quit, what do they say?

Does GW attempt to control the distribution of their product or do they trust their retailing partners? What are the implications or their choices?

Is GW overly litigious or do they trust their own ability to make a great product to protect their fictional universe?

What do you think the result would be on any company's sales volume if they increased prices and revenue didn't really go up?

Has GW been effective in cutting their costs and do you think there's more room for cuts in even more areas of their business?

GW is currently opening stores faster than they are closing them. What happens if they find the right combination of locations and employees and their stores become very profitable? What happens if they don't?

Does GW think there's actually anything wrong with their product, or do they think it's exactly what they need? How does that mesh with what their customers are saying and buying?

Does GW think the rules are important to the product experience, or are they an afterthought? What do the customers think? Are there different groups of customers that think differently about these issues?

Who is GW's target audience? Is there a mismatch between who they target and who actually responds?

Is there competition for GW? Is that competition persistent or does it pop up and just get crushed? How are their competitors doing?

How has their licensing been doing? Did the push for video game licensing pan out into major revenue?

What do you think is the reason their sales aren't higher? What is keeping their sales from being lower?

Why is the explanation for the reduced sales of the last sixth months being given as a retail disruption caused by the one employee stores when independent trade partners also sold less?

--

But something tells me people who demand someone be a CEO in order to criticize or praise a company have no interest in actual honest discussion.

Seriqolm
24-01-2014, 18:20
When you dismiss ideas based on the person making them and not engage with the actual content of what they are saying, then that's the very definition of the ad hominem fallacy (I'm not talking about an ad hominem attack as people often misuse the term to just mean a personal attack)

https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/ad-hominem

As soon as someone says something like "but who are you to say that?" you know they've departed from dealing with the actual content of what you are saying. The discussion is largely over at this point.

--

Is GW's customer base growing or shrinking?

When people give the reason they quit, what do they say?

Does GW attempt to control the distribution of their product or do they trust their retailing partners? What are the implications or their choices?

Is GW overly litigious or do they trust their own ability to make a great product to protect their fictional universe?

What do you think the result would be on any company's sales volume if they increased prices and revenue didn't really go up?

Has GW been effective in cutting their costs and do you think there's more room for cuts in even more areas of their business?

GW is currently opening stores faster than they are closing them. What happens if they find the right combination of locations and employees and their stores become very profitable? What happens if they don't?

Does GW think there's actually anything wrong with their product, or do they think it's exactly what they need? How does that mesh with what their customers are saying and buying?

Does GW think the rules are important to the product experience, or are they an afterthought? What do the customers think? Are there different groups of customers that think differently about these issues?

Who is GW's target audience? Is there a mismatch between who they target and who actually responds?

Is there competition for GW? Is that competition persistent or does it pop up and just get crushed? How are their competitors doing?

How has their licensing been doing? Did the push for video game licensing pan out into major revenue?

What do you think is the reason their sales aren't higher? What is keeping their sales from being lower?

Why is the explanation for the reduced sales of the last sixth months being given as a retail disruption caused by the one employee stores when independent trade partners also sold less?

--

But something tells me people who demand someone be a CEO in order to criticize or praise a company have no interest in actual honest discussion.


I have no idea the answer to any of those questions as I'm not privvy to enough information and I don't know the machination of the company in question as I'm not the CEO, but if I was a major investor with the company I certainly would be or at least allowed to ask probing question to the CEO either personally or at the AGM. What I don't do it make proclamations and character slander about people and a company I have no contact or relationship with. This is the attitude of many on forums throughout the gaming world and I call them on it, they have zero interest in debate, they just want to vent their frustrations and tilt at windmills.

hobojebus
24-01-2014, 19:53
I appreciate the research. Are those comparable values though? Your £10 estimate is for 100 pounds of metal, which seems to me like a lot more quantity of material than a gallon of resin.

Well i have searched and failed to find the mix that makes up the old white metal GW used, without that i do not know the levels of zinc,tin and other metals.

The £10 is for regular scrap metal which covers steel, aluminium etc which are cheaper than materials such as brass.

And as for the weight matching thats what the internet results seem to indicate, its as i said a rough comparison nothing scientific.

Doomseer
24-01-2014, 20:32
The veterans in our gaming group are spending less, if any at all, and making do with what we already have, or trading, buying/selling to get by. I used to have quite a few side projects on the go, alongside my Eldar and Blood Angels, but have sold them to pay for the ridiculously priced new releases for my main armies.

I've played the fewest games in my 40k career in this current edition, mostly due to the game being a convoluted mess of imbalance and randomness. Too many tacked-on rules and games decided by broken combos. Too many younger gamers with spamfest netlists refusing to believe that we're not all doing the same or thinking for ourselves.

We love the background and setting and have invested so much time and effort in the game, but this isn't enough anymore.

The way I see it, (from the eyes of someone who has played every edition from the start), is that the game has come back to players arranging games in advance with composition and mission mutually agreed. I'm pleased that more people are realising that the game doesn't work competitively. There are lots of great games out there now that are far more rewarding for less investment and more of us are happy to just play the odd game of 40k now and again. :)

frozenwastes
24-01-2014, 21:10
I have no idea the answer to any of those questions as I'm not privvy to enough information and I don't know the machination of the company in question as I'm not the CEO, but if I was a major investor with the company I certainly would be or at least allowed to ask probing question to the CEO either personally or at the AGM.

The whole point of financial reporting law and accounting standards is that you are supposed to have sufficient information to make an investment or purchasing decision (for example, staying away from a failing electronics manufacturer because your warranty won't be any good). The answers to many, many of those questions can indeed be found in GW's financial documents. The answers to others require additional information, some of which is available and some of which is not.


What I don't do it make proclamations and character slander about people and a company I have no contact or relationship with. This is the attitude of many on forums throughout the gaming world and I call them on it, they have zero interest in debate, they just want to vent their frustrations and tilt at windmills.

Then why don't you say that? Why instead engage in a logical fallacy like the idea that unless you're a CEO of a company, your statements about a company are somehow less valid?

The numbers don't change based on my career or anyone else's. And they support the continued assessment that GW is in a slow decline but staying profitable through cost cutting. I'm not sure that the original poster's assertion that it's largely the result of gamers dissatisfied with the rules that caused the decline. I'm sure lots of people who stopped buying did so for a variety of reasons. I think the totality of the experience of 40k is the issue, not just gamers not liking the rules.

Ssilmath
24-01-2014, 21:13
I think the totality of the experience of 40k is the issue, not just gamers not liking the rules.

I'm pretty sure that a major financial recession and people having less disposable income might play a part in this as well.

Wolf Lord Balrog
24-01-2014, 21:37
I'm pretty sure that a major financial recession and people having less disposable income might play a part in this as well.

Which brings us back around to prices as the real problem. Almost the entire world has been in a recession of some depth for the last 5 years, but GW made the abysmally stupid decision to keep right on with regular price increases. When the economy turns down, you go down-market, not up-market. Any first-year Business major could tell you that.

Ssilmath
24-01-2014, 21:40
I don't doubt you, Wolf Lord Balrog. But it made sense to somebody, for whatever reason. I'm not privy to that information, and I don't even have close to the background to speculate. I'm mostly trying to make the point that it was likely many factors, some in GW's control, some not, some on purpose, some on accident that has lead to not putting up the same numbers as last year.

Graystoak
24-01-2014, 21:44
I'm pretty sure that a major financial recession and people having less disposable income might play a part in this as well.

Actually I don't think that is the case. I work in the entertainment industry and from what I've experienced (and what I've been told by those who've gone before me), a recession is exactly the time when people spend their money on 'the simple pleasures'.
This is because they aren't able to go on lavish holidays, eat in fancy restaurants, buy new cars, fancy clothes or whatever. So instead they go to the cinema, get a take away and spend their spare cash on longer lasting forms of entertainment like video games and, in some cases, model kits. The company I work for has significantly upscaled production the past 3 years, GW should be raking it in.

Ssilmath
24-01-2014, 21:51
I dunno. 8 bucks for a movie ticket, or 75 for a model. I'm not sure 40k fits into the 'simple pleasures' category of spending.

Langdon
24-01-2014, 22:07
I dunno. 8 bucks for a movie ticket, or 75 for a model. I'm not sure 40k fits into the 'simple pleasures' category of spending.

neither is the movies anymore.. 8 bucks is just the ticket.. you will spend alot more without trying.

hobojebus
24-01-2014, 22:12
neither is the movies anymore.. 8 bucks is just the ticket.. you will spend alot more without trying.

I don't i smuggle drinks and snacks in because **** cinema prices!

Ozendorph
24-01-2014, 22:22
Actually I don't think that is the case. I work in the entertainment industry and from what I've experienced (and what I've been told by those who've gone before me), a recession is exactly the time when people spend their money on 'the simple pleasures'.
This is because they aren't able to go on lavish holidays, eat in fancy restaurants, buy new cars, fancy clothes or whatever. So instead they go to the cinema, get a take away and spend their spare cash on longer lasting forms of entertainment like video games and, in some cases, model kits. The company I work for has significantly upscaled production the past 3 years, GW should be raking it in.

QFT. A friend of mine has owned a comics & game store for decades, and he tells me when the economy is down, spending on fantasy/escapism items (i.e. his merchandise) invariably goes up.

Graystoak
24-01-2014, 22:34
QFT. A friend of mine has owned a comics & game store for decades, and he tells me when the economy is down, spending on fantasy/escapism items (i.e. his merchandise) invariably goes up.

Didn't think to add comic books to my list but yea, that fits in with the theory nicely. I'm pretty sure 'fantasy' stuff generally (be it books, movies, etc), has increased popularity when times are tough and people are looking for a distraction from reality. Didn't DC and the whole super hero thing come into existence in the 30's? Between two world wars? A fairly bleak period in modern history.

Like I said before, a global recession should mean big business for a company like GW, not a drop in sales.

AngryAngel
24-01-2014, 22:42
It's a sure sign someone is losing an argument when they stop talking subject and result to insulting those who disagree with them.


Absolutely. You can't really discuss a topic like this without sighting the reasons for peoples I'll feeling towards the company and/or it's decisions. And yet It's hard to say anything negative about GW without the apologists getting defensive. Or the reverse I guess.

Truth, such is the way of things when emotions get involved and with the time, money and attention is spent into this. Glad we can at least have some civil discourse. within the fighting of the two sides. Though I think we stand around on the same side anyways, but the feeling is there.

Scribe of Khorne
24-01-2014, 23:14
Didn't think to add comic books to my list but yea, that fits in with the theory nicely. I'm pretty sure 'fantasy' stuff generally (be it books, movies, etc), has increased popularity when times are tough and people are looking for a distraction from reality. Didn't DC and the whole super hero thing come into existence in the 30's? Between two world wars? A fairly bleak period in modern history.

Like I said before, a global recession should mean big business for a company like GW, not a drop in sales.

If their prices where reasonable.

Thats it right there. IF their prices where reasonable.

If I could buy a box of 10, yes a bloody BOX of models, at $20, well I would be buying up **** like crazy, because really, whats $20?

But I cant. I have to look at say, Sternguard, 5 models, for $60. Then I have to look at what level is 'playable' (1500-2000 points) and then look at how much you essentially need to get, to play with the 'group'.

GW isnt like comics, or books, or a movie rental (wait, Netflix).

Its simply too expensive to be an on a whim purchase.

EDIT: The Dark Eldar are a perfect example. They certainly seemed to be priced lower at release, and I picked them up like candy.

Valkyrie Sky
24-01-2014, 23:52
I have no idea the answer to any of those questions as I'm not privvy to enough information and I don't know the machination of the company in question as I'm not the CEO, but if I was a major investor with the company I certainly would be or at least allowed to ask probing question to the CEO either personally or at the AGM. What I don't do it make proclamations and character slander about people and a company I have no contact or relationship with. This is the attitude of many on forums throughout the gaming world and I call them on it, they have zero interest in debate, they just want to vent their frustrations and tilt at windmills.

Thanks, you just admitted you have no clue what you were talking about yet still proceeded to crap on others input because you chose to make assumption of they didn't either.
Contrary to your original intentions, you are doing exactly the same as the people you tried to call others out for... do you not see it?
If you can't then I have nothing to say that other than grow up, Im done.

So are you a CEO of a multinational company with a turnover of in excess of £100 million pounds per year?

No Im not, even though my family is, it doesn't change the fact that Im not the individual that earned it so I have zero rights to using it like a clutch.
However since you wrote that sentence, I assume you are? If so, you win. You are a bigger fish than me.

Scribe of Khorne
25-01-2014, 00:42
I find it comical to imply that being a CEO means you have some knowledge, some level of common business sense, that is beyond what us peons are able to put together with our meager intellects.

Actually am laughing out loud over the concept, that a CEO has anything of value to really add to the daily mechanics of their company. Thats what managers are for, and we all know how important middle management is right?

Right. Its the people on the ground that actually do ****. The design team, the PR folks. The marketing.

Please, to imply the CEO of GW knows 2 ***** about gaming, simply has me laughing.

insectum7
25-01-2014, 02:20
I find it comical to imply that being a CEO means you have some knowledge, some level of common business sense, that is beyond what us peons are able to put together with our meager intellects.

Actually am laughing out loud over the concept, that a CEO has anything of value to really add to the daily mechanics of their company. Thats what managers are for, and we all know how important middle management is right?

Right. Its the people on the ground that actually do ****. The design team, the PR folks. The marketing.

Please, to imply the CEO of GW knows 2 ***** about gaming, simply has me laughing.

Lol and +1

Upper management is not necessarily made up of the brightest of minds. . . just the most successful, for some reason or another. Big titles do not always mean the sharpest knife in the drawer.

AngryAngel
25-01-2014, 07:46
I promised I wouldn't even add in about it, but yes trying to compare " right " to voice your opinion on this subject based on experience or net worth is just, I'm searching for a word but don't have it. Is that somehow to mean that only if your a CEO or amazingly, like top 2% wealthy, you have no say ? I'm not quite sure that is what forums are about and I'm pretty sure most people understand basic concepts of business. It doesn't take a genius to decode, drastically raising prices year after year when people have less, on a luxury item, is a poor plan. It also doesn't take much to know making starting new armies over expensive isn't a great way to raise the player base, and increase profits there.

I'd hazard to say the moderates from either side won't try and claim GW is a pinnacle of grand business sense in all things. So lets not say you need to be one of the rich and famous to understand and grasp the greatness that is GW upper management.

I think we've pin pointed some very good areas from both angles, that may lead to the issue. Some is them doing it to themselves, some can and probably is outside factors. However as a company trying to mitigate those outside factors to keep profits steady is their job. The question is, aside from release schedule and rule book switch ups, will they perhaps alter their path or keep on as usual ? Time will tell, I'm prone to believe they'll try and make the over expensive items more wished through more constant releases, I don't think this will correct the downward turn however.

Graystoak
25-01-2014, 08:52
It doesn't take a genius to decode, drastically raising prices year after year when people have less, on a luxury item, is a poor plan .....

...However as a company trying to mitigate those outside factors to keep profits steady is their job.

I agree completely. Assuming my previous assertions that they are simply greedy are false (as some have assured me), In order to remain competitive most companies would look for ways of saving money internally rather than dumping that cost onto their 'valued' customers by raising prices.
It's not a sustainable business model and if recent profit reports are to be believed, they've pushed it as far as they can, perhaps farther than they can get away with.

I came into this discussion with the belief that two factors were responsible for the decline in GW interest/profits. The more I read the posts coming in the more I feel the 'balance' issue is secondary and the real crux of the problem is simply cost.

The recent release of heavily discounted army bundles that some one kindly pointed out earlier, may well be a sign that they have come to this realisation. But the cost of those bundles is pretty high, you need to spend £100+ to get a discount of around 10%. I don't think its enough to turn the tide personally.

Telemachus
25-01-2014, 09:36
What I don't get is the 'they're not selling stuff' argument that everyone seems to have settled on.

We won't know if it's sales that have caused the dip in profits until they file annual returns for the period in question. Ignore that, I found this from their half yearly report -





Six months to
Six months to



1 December
2 December



2013
2012







Revenue
£60.5m
£67.5m


Revenue at constant currency*
£59.8m
£67.5m


Operating profit pre-royalties receivable
£6.6m
£10.6m


Royalties receivable
£1.0m
£0.4m


Operating profit
£7.7m
£11.0m


Pre-tax profit
£7.7m
£11.1m


Cash generated from operations
£8.9m
£12.0m


Basic earnings per share
17.7p
25.6p


Dividend per share declared in the period
-
18p



INTERIM MANAGEMENT REPORT
First half performance
Sales in the first half of the year were down against the comparable period in the prior year, continuing the trend that developed in the second half of 2012/13. During the first half, the rapid transition from multi-man stores to one-man stores and the reduction of trading hours across the Group caused disruption in our retail chain. We also experienced some decline in sales through independent stockists.

We view these as short-term issues and expect to see growth return in both channels. We continue with our store opening programme (27 stores opened, 20 closed in the period) secure in the knowledge that our one man model allows us to ensure new openings are profitable. In the future we expect to benefit from the more focussed selling operation across all channels against the background of a materially lower cost base.

Changes to operating structure
We have just announced a major re-organisation of our sales businesses to allow management by channel: retail, trade and direct. Our retail businesses will be consolidated under a single Retail Sales Manager for each of our key geographic areas - UK, Europe and North America. Trade sales will be consolidated into a global business, operating from Lenton, Nottingham.

Prospects
Our costs are well under control and margins remain strong. Cash management is good and our capital expenditure continues as planned. The principal risks and uncertainties for the rest of the financial year relate to sales and the implementation of the structural changes we have just announced. Whilst profit will remain under pressure during the implementation of the structural changes mentioned above, the board remains confident in the future growth and profitability of the Group.

Going concern
After making appropriate enquiries, the directors have a reasonable expectation that the Group has adequate resources to continue in operational existence for the foreseeable future. For this reason they have adopted the going concern basis in preparing this condensed consolidated interim financial information.

Statement of directors' responsibilities
The directors confirm that this condensed consolidated interim financial information has been prepared in accordance with IAS 34, 'Interim Financial Reporting', as adopted by the European Union, and that the interim management report herein includes a fair review of the information required by DTR 4.2.7 and DTR 4.2.8, namely:

· an indication of important events that have occurred during the first six months and their impact on the condensed set of financial statements, and a description of the principal risks and uncertainties for the remaining six months of the financial year; and
· material related-party transactions in the first six months and any material changes in the related-party transactions described in the last annual report.

In the six months to 1 December 2013, E M O'Donnell was appointed to the board as a non-executive director. There have been no other changes to the board since the annual report for the year to 2 June 2013. A list of all current directors is maintained on the investor relations website at investor.games-workshop.com (http://investor.games-workshop.com/).

By order of the board

T H F Kirby
Chairman and Acting CEO

K D Rountree
COO

16 January 2014

Looking at some of the investor chat that's on a couple of websites, there doesn't seem to be any panic at all about the share prices and in some quarters there's an expectation that it will drop further.

There are, however, things which are exciting them, this for instance (http://www.marketwatch.com/story/join-the-eternal-crusadetm-starting-in-2015-2013-06-11) -

185913

Graystoak
25-01-2014, 12:25
And that is exciting me too! I have no doubt that there is plenty of money to be made from their IP without selling a single miniature.


[s]What I don't get is the 'they're not selling stuff' argument that everyone seems to have settled on.


Well that is what comes up consistently reading the experiences of people on this thread, but I guess we are mostly older (30+?), hobbyists, who are generally regarded as infrequent customers.

Although I earn more money now than I ever have I also have a much smaller percentage of disposable income. Factor in 20+ years of collecting means I don't often need to buy much and my 'maturity' (yea right), means I'm probably less likely to impulse buy new releases. ****, no wonder GW doesn't care about me!

Maybe the 'kids' are spending plenty and it isn't a concern for them.

Jind_Singh
25-01-2014, 16:08
Depends though - as I get older I find mysel in a position to buy more - but I don't have a kid yet so that could all change!

I do buy a lot through my GW store but I also keep an eye out for trades and private buys.

But this could be due to the simple fact that our GW store is extremely well ran!

In addition to the 40k gamers we have a good sized fantasy crowd, events ran on a regular basis, apocalypse is played - as are the other expansions

We even have a small crowd of Hobbit players who come in

Us Vets are still pumping time and $$$ into the hobby

So it's kind of an anomaly - we are in some bizarre GW vacuum where it's text book hobby and sales

That's why I started up this thread as its only via the Internet I see the 'other side'

IcedCrow
25-01-2014, 17:25
Depends though - as I get older I find mysel in a position to buy more - but I don't have a kid yet so that could all change!

I do buy a lot through my GW store but I also keep an eye out for trades and private buys.

But this could be due to the simple fact that our GW store is extremely well ran!

In addition to the 40k gamers we have a good sized fantasy crowd, events ran on a regular basis, apocalypse is played - as are the other expansions

We even have a small crowd of Hobbit players who come in

Us Vets are still pumping time and $$$ into the hobby

So it's kind of an anomaly - we are in some bizarre GW vacuum where it's text book hobby and sales

That's why I started up this thread as its only via the Internet I see the 'other side'

Ditto. Our area is booming. Our GW store is doing awesome, our events are doing awesome, we have a vibrant group of players that number over one hundred total, and our city isn't even that big. I only see the wasteland reports on the internet. That sucks that that is like that ... that there are areas struggling like that - it makes me happy to be where I am.

Langdon
25-01-2014, 20:27
Ditto. Our area is booming. Our GW store is doing awesome, our events are doing awesome, we have a vibrant group of players that number over one hundred total, and our city isn't even that big. I only see the wasteland reports on the internet. That sucks that that is like that ... that there are areas struggling like that - it makes me happy to be where I am.

Most places are complacent. Is your GW the only one for 100's of miles?

It seems the ones out in the sticks do much better than one in a big/busy city, as ones there don't have to focus on the customer as much as the other stores.

Where I am events and members are at a low despite the store being popular.. because there is a better gaming group close by (Firestorm Games.. I am sure you lot have heard of the place)

Jind_Singh
26-01-2014, 01:10
Most places are complacent. Is your GW the only one for 100's of miles?

It seems the ones out in the sticks do much better than one in a big/busy city, as ones there don't have to focus on the customer as much as the other stores.

Where I am events and members are at a low despite the store being popular.. because there is a better gaming group close by (Firestorm Games.. I am sure you lot have heard of the place)

Our store is in Burnaby (Lower Mainland, BC, Canada) a major urban centre and was one of 4 stores (other 3 got closed as leases expired and rents went up in those respective malls).

Our store is great thanks to the Manager - North Americas longest employed member of staff who has a lot of passion and skill in his field!

But we also have a number of ambassadors for the hobby - for eg just recently I met a newb who was JUST starting - so I took two armies from my collection for a play date - and last year I ran a not-for-profit Warhammmer campaign out of the store for 18 players - which was quite a success.

From our rosé-tinted point of view things couldn't be better in the hobby!

The pricing (HOWEVER) is starting to hurt as its restricting entry I think to the key demographic - the young teens!

$70 for 10 Witch Elves (that are amazing sculpts!!!) is big monies!

The move of players to buying and trading second hand has increased significantly over the years

That's a danger as once you learn how to hunt out deals it's rare that you go back to paying top dollars.

I'm the anomaly there as I still support my GW over cheaper vendors from private stores as I feel that the brick and mortar store is crucial in keeping the hobby alive - pretty much most new recruits come from there!

This is why it's been interesting reading this thread, and why I started it, as I wasn't sure if players just plain and simple didn't like the new 40k - and as a result GWs biggest cash cow had contracted mad cow disease!

But it's clear that this is not the major factor - seems like a combination of events that are having this effect

Personally speaking I'm rooting for a recovery of the franchise as I have suitcases full of plastic and metal that need a purpose in life!

spagg
26-01-2014, 01:38
I play in icedcrows campaign and we only have the one GW store, but many lgs's that we utilize. GW games are going pretty strong here as well as many other games.

IcedCrow
26-01-2014, 04:15
Most places are complacent. Is your GW the only one for 100's of miles?

It seems the ones out in the sticks do much better than one in a big/busy city, as ones there don't have to focus on the customer as much as the other stores.

Where I am events and members are at a low despite the store being popular.. because there is a better gaming group close by (Firestorm Games.. I am sure you lot have heard of the place)

I don't live in the sticks. There are four GW stores in our region (Cincinnati, Lousiville, Lexington, Nashville) as well as Memphis which is a few hours away as well as chicago (which is about the same distance as memphis from where I am). My city has five gaming stores in total by itself, one of which being GW. There is also a fifth GW store opening up in another city a couple hours away (Indianapolis) in the near future.

Wolf Lord Balrog
26-01-2014, 09:48
Here in the Memphis area I only know of one LGS, and then GW headquarters, within about a 90 mile radius. Gaming stores come and go a lot, and I've been friends with the owners of almost all of them that have been open in the last 20 years. There are plenty of problems you have to deal with in the economic environment here (unemployment in Memphis is something like 40% higher than the national average right now).

But one thing store owners have consistently told me over the last decade is that GW makes it harder, not easier, for them to sell their products. The one LGS that is in operation right now gets their GW stuff through a regional distributor rather than from GW themselves, and they pass the savings directly on to local customers. Even then though, they would never be able to stay in business on GW products alone, or even wargaming in general. They also sell comic books, toys, model railroad hobby, RC car/plane/helicopter stuff, and other miscellaneous hobby supplies.

Minsc
26-01-2014, 11:04
Not counting the one in Copenhagen (I live in Sweden), my closest GW-store is the one in Gothenburg...~325 km/~203 miles away.
Apart from this, my closest gamingstore is in Malmö, 60 km/37 miles away. Thankfully there is a semi-official gamingclub in my town (not a store) where I can get my needs met.

In my town (~20,000 inhabitants), we've had one supplier of GW goods during the last 15 years. He mostly sells other stuff, mainly collectibles and video/pc-games, but he's always had 2-3 shelves full of GW-miniatures in the store.
6 months ago he declared that he will no longer resupply his stock since he basically made no profit from it. (You could and can still place orders though.)
He even put up a 50% discount on the GW-stuff he already had available, and when I visited the store 2 weeks ago, he still had one full shelf of GW-stuff left.

This, in addition to (as I mentioned earlier) my gamingclub having lost over 50% of it's active 40k-players since early 5th, means that GW is in great decline in my area.

I think as someone mentioned earlier, the pricetag for starting the hobby is a great deterrent for teenagers. They simply can't afford it, even if they wanted too.

AngryAngel
26-01-2014, 19:50
In my area, we have a tight central group of vets, and we get the occasional new member. However unless they buy in to the starter set, I see many get interested, see the start up and just step away. The community has been much more vibrant and strong in years past. Even the vets aren't getting new models and starting new armies as they used to. As the cost ends up being too high and with other more important things to spend money on, save money for something has to give. They still get things but almost nothing is an impulse buy as it used to be.

Not to say doom or gloom but they need to get things figured out, either a back pedal in prices, which I feel will help, or better use of their discounted bundles, I'd like both. While I like how they're trying to release fast and furious and all the new things, it really doesn't fix the core problem of buy in and cost but more brings such to light further. They have time and we'll see I suppose what happens. As with all these things there will be strong and weakening areas for support for the hobby.

Sexiest_hero
27-01-2014, 09:10
OK I'm not a fan-boy or a hater. Yes I sat out most of 6th but that's just me. The numbers are sad. Nobody is Panicing because nothing to major is at stake. Some gamers lose a game and some factories shut down and the investers lose a little and the CEOs get a new job somewhere else. We've seen 100 year old companies fail. once might giants like Mirosoft and Nintendo are inching closer to the edge. GW is what we'd call unhealthy stock, invest at your own risk, you may win big or you may lose a little. Idk if I'd say the players won because I think the players have to take a fair amount of blame in the state of things.

toonboy78
27-01-2014, 12:18
note: i have no insider knowledge and this statement could be complete rubbish, but it is a though of a madman (me)

a 'turning point' in GW seems to be 2nd ed -3rd ed 40k. this is the point where we see the need of 3-4 squads and a vehicle at 2k points to 5-6 squads and 3-4 vehicles at 2k (based on marines)

it is speculated that the reason GW did this was to sell more models. here is a crazy thought...maybe they did it to appease the vets.

2nd ed was quite complex to play and if you had too much on the table it would take a while to play. as vets have been getting larger and larger collections they have wanted to play bigger and bigger games. as with any rule set the going too big or too small can imbalance a game.

to allow people to play bigger games GW created a different rule set. maybe in hindsight they should have made escalation back in 2000 rather than 40k 3rd ed, but tit looks like they have learnt their lesson and they are keeping a core game and allowing bigger games in APOC.

i appreciate 'intro costs' are high today, but i don't think GW games are alone in this. i was thinking about getting an Xbox One....but how much! intro costs in 40k are deemed high as people are saying lets play 2k...if the intro game size was 500pts then the cost would be quite reasonable. also who is going to buy a 2k army in one hit. it would tale a few weeks to build and paint it.

start small and build up. that how i started, a tact squad and a librarian and by the time i had built and painted them i was ready to buy the next thing (i have a monthly model budget)

as i said just a though of a madman....

Poseidal
27-01-2014, 13:10
Does someone have anything that can estimate the customer numbers? I seem to recall someone said that around 1998, the 'player numbers' peaked and has actually been in decline ever since; profitability has been kept up that time thanks to LoTR and GW becoming more streamlined with less waste, but customers (or sales overall) have been in constant decline since around that time?

Cheeslord
27-01-2014, 13:58
i appreciate 'intro costs' are high today, but i don't think GW games are alone in this. i was thinking about getting an Xbox One....but how much!

Well, consoles are always going to be very expensive in the first year of release. In 12-24 months the Xbox will drop significantly in price, and tend to keep going down until the next generation gets launched, whereas GW prices steadily inflate regardless of "generation".

That said, I reckon I spent way more on computer games than I did on 40k over the same period, but got more hours out of them too...

Mark.