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Vipoid
23-01-2014, 15:19
This came up in another thread, and I thought it might be interesting to hear what people think.

Basically, do you think that all armies/characters should have access to 4+ ward saves (currently from Armour of Destiny and Talisman of Preservation)?

Or, should 4+ saves either be rarer, or come with a downside (or even not be available at all)?

SteveW
23-01-2014, 15:31
Characters yes, troops... not so much.

Armies that should not have access to it. Orcs n Goblins, Empire, VC, TK, Ogres, Dwarfs, lizardmen, beastmen, and Skaven.

The rest of the armies should all have a unit with 4+ wards. Daemons(all greater daemons), Brets(grail knights), Elves(the units with them already and wardancers), WoC(tzeench chosen)

StygianBeach
23-01-2014, 15:43
Characters yes, troops... not so much.

Agree. I am fine with Characters having serious Ward Saves. Units, not so much.

sephiroth87
23-01-2014, 15:58
Characters yes, troops... not so much.

Armies that should not have access to it. Orcs n Goblins, Empire, VC, TK, Ogres, Dwarfs, lizardmen, beastmen, and Skaven.

The rest of the armies should all have a unit with 4+ wards. Daemons(all greater daemons), Brets(grail knights), Elves(the units with them already and wardancers), WoC(tzeench chosen)

Well, that's...arbitrary.

I think every army should have access to it.

SteveW
23-01-2014, 15:59
Well, that's...arbitrary.

I think every army should have access to it.
Every single thing in warhammer is arbitrary. What's your point?

theunwantedbeing
23-01-2014, 16:05
I'de rather nobody had access to any kind of 4+ ward save personally.
Unless it was one with a big downside like not working vs magical attacks, or only working in a challenge.

It's a bit silly when the general and bsb are both toting a solid 4+ ward item in every single game, it makes them seem very commonplace items if everyone is wearing one.

Spiney Norman
23-01-2014, 16:05
For characters, yes, all armies should have access to a 4++

With the introduction of sniper as a USR that is not too hard to come by and the dramatic increase in the number of attacks that can be sent a character's way in combat (two or three times that seen in previous editions) I think it is only fair that they increased the general resilience of characters (especially the general and BSB which the entire army relies on) across the board, and unilaterally available 4++ items were the easiest way to do that.

It used to be that unless he was fighting in a duel, a character would be facing three troopers worth of attacks, minus any that he killed before they struck. Now you will be taking 6-9 (or even 12 in extreme cases) models worth of attacks regardless of how many you kill before hand.

Its not actually that much of a change from last ed, more than half the armies had an unrestricted 4++ ward item then anyway.

I think it would have been nice if they had made 4++ the best ward save you could get, being able to improve them down to 3++ (or even 2++ in some extreme cases) is a little silly.

StygianBeach
23-01-2014, 17:47
I think it would have been nice if they had made 4++ the best ward save you could get, being able to improve them down to 3++ (or even 2++ in some extreme cases) is a little silly.

I dont mind 3++ (or even 2++) on combat characters, unless they are unbreakable/stubborn.

Ramius4
23-01-2014, 18:00
I have zero issues with 4+ ward saves on characters.

On units, I think it's too far, and I've felt that way ever since Pheonix Guard were the first actual rank and file unit to get one. 5+ to me is the absolute limit that a rank and file unit's ward save should be unless it is somehow conditional.

Oogie boogie boss
23-01-2014, 18:13
They are available to all armies- It's called the Talisman of Preservation and it's in the Common Magic Items list. I think it's fine for maybe one character (not including SC) in an army to have access to a 4++, but it should cost and should be rare. I can't think of any unit in the game which could justify having a 4++ at a basic level though.

Ramius4
23-01-2014, 18:15
They are available to all armies- It's called the Talisman of Preservation and it's in the Common Magic Items list.

Nobody asked if they are available. The OP is asking if they SHOULD be available to everyone.

Oogie boogie boss
23-01-2014, 18:16
See edited version of my post. Hit return too early.

Ramius4
23-01-2014, 18:18
See edited version of my post. Hit return too early.

Lol, it's all good. Half my posts are edited 2 or 3 times these days.

Shadowsinner
23-01-2014, 18:21
It's a bit silly when the general and bsb are both toting a solid 4+ ward item in every single game, it makes them seem very commonplace items if everyone is wearing one.

It can be a bit cookie cutter, however keep in mind that those two 50/50 saves are gonna cost about 100 points to keep your characters safer instead of being spent on other troops. and with only two wounds a piece, there are way too many things that make a 1+ armor save not so amazing

I don't mind ward save units provided they are appropriately costed, but I agree I think 5+ should be the norm if any, and maybe offering a 4+ against shooting

Shadowsinner
23-01-2014, 18:22
I think it would be simpler if characters just got the ward save as an upgrade in their profile

Archon of Death
23-01-2014, 18:55
I think it would be simpler if characters just got the ward save as an upgrade in their profile

Can we also put strength, toughness, wounds, weapon skill, ballistic skill, initiative, attacks, leadership, and special rules on that list?

Blinder
23-01-2014, 19:47
I like the idea of them being a bit fewer and further between, myself. Being able to pay a fair bit to give one or two characters a 4++ is fine, its when large parts of an army start having that level of protection that things start to feel a bit silly. There really isn't *too* much of that, though... it just seems that the couple of cases where it does it can really get silly (HE seem the "worst" even if it's partly based on SCs and magic, but even with the DE warlocks it's just a bit... much. I'm not sure it's even about being "OP" or anything, just... weird).

And, I think what Shadowsinner was suggesting is that making it profile-based rather than BRB-item-based could lead to a bit more limitations on who is running around with the 4++. I don't really think that's needed, though... it should just maybe be a *slightly* bigger investment and certain things maybe shouldn't be allowed to mix with the top-end wards.

Captain Collius
23-01-2014, 20:44
The 4++ should be available to characters. However on troops ward saves become a bit ridiculous. (see a phoenix guard horde in the middle of high elf army with a way to cast high magic.) I mean do we really need troops that have access to a save that protects them from 50% of whatever the enemy does.

shakedown47
23-01-2014, 21:40
Personally when 8th was being formulated I was really hoping for ward saves to be negated by magic attacks and regen to be negated by fire an killing blow. That puts a heavy premium on ASF and high I in a challenge or against units with ward saves, but IMO it would be much more enjoyable (and this from someone who unabashedly fields a 1+/3++ chaos lord.) Also, it would further justify the cost of ensorcelled weapons, ethereals, etc. By that reasoning, the easy availability of 4+ ward would be fine for me.

Otherwise, a 5+ ward should be the best commonly available ward, and then the army books that want to provide a high ward save still can.

Vipoid
23-01-2014, 23:38
Personally when 8th was being formulated I was really hoping for ward saves to be negated by magic attacks and regen to be negated by fire an killing blow.

Do you not think that would make ward saves rather worthless? (However hilarious it would be against the BotWD.)
It seems like the majority of attacks you'd actually want a ward save against are magical (since such attacks are usually high strength, or ignore armour saves entirely). Maybe if ward saves only worked against magic attacks.


That puts a heavy premium on ASF and high I in a challenge or against units with ward saves It does, but aren't those things - ASF in particular - already pretty damn useful? Just look at the response from elf players when someone suggests taking their rerolls away. ;)

WhispersofBlood
24-01-2014, 03:56
I think potent wards should be left to the Elder races, and Chaos races. Where are the rest getting the power to make these items?

Shimmergloom
24-01-2014, 04:02
Armies that should not have access to it. Orcs n Goblins, Empire, VC, TK, Ogres, Dwarfs, lizardmen, beastmen, and Skaven.

I think the armies that should not have access to 4+ wards should be HE, DE, WE, WoC, DoC, Brets and Chaos Dwarfs.

SteveW
24-01-2014, 04:37
I think the armies that should not have access to 4+ wards should be HE, DE, WE, WoC, DoC, Brets and Chaos Dwarfs.

Why? My list was based on the more elite armies should have it while the hoard ones should not. I'd be interested to hear why you think the opposite.

snyggejygge
24-01-2014, 19:31
Personally Iīm a big fan of ward saves with a downside, I think a 4+ ward vs magic attacks only, or a 4+ ward vs non-magical attacks only would be a lot more fun, same with things like the Opal Amulet, or maybe a 4+ ward that starts working once you take a wound, & another one that only works until you take a wound. Such items would be a lot more fun than the standard 4+ ward item. (for your reference, my favorite items for protection are the cheap ones, Opal Amulet, Enchanted & Charmed shield, Luckstone, Dragon Helm & even Seed of Rebirth, I donīt want immortal characters, but ofc they should be tougher than your average trooper).

With that said, I want to remove the attacks from 2:nd ranks as well, first rank fighting should be enough, 2:nd rank should be for hordes & spears.

Piercefierce
26-01-2014, 00:00
I think they're fine tbh. The 1+ 3++, re roll ones with maybe even a soulfeeder chucked in is a bit crazy, that's probably it though now that the pendant has left us. I might be wrong, But i'm pretty sure 2++ is impossible (aside from resistance, or maybe on a fulcrum... if i'm missing something). I like the idea of characters being unusually resilient. It suits the fluff. The characters perform like crazy in the fluff. 10 times better then any normal troop. Its not like a decent ward save makes these guys unstoppable, like they had the tendency to be a decade or so ago. It just makes them stand out. I find phoenix guard fairly easy to deal with, even with even when they get the 3+. They don't usually put out too much damage (to my warriors in particular) so i only usually need to get a few wounds through. Its even more annoying when they horde something like white lions and botwd them up and also have a 20-25 man unit of phoenix guard. But still its not that bad (if your not a daemon).

HurrDurr
26-01-2014, 00:50
I think game balance is more important than fluff "where impossible to have both." If a ward is what a unit needs in order to be good, then a ward it deserves. They don't all represent an ancient power no matter what dice roll the ward save requires.

Should every army have 4+ wards? It sound really dull but it's a core mechanic, especially for characters.

Spiney Norman
26-01-2014, 18:36
Why? My list was based on the more elite armies should have it while the hoard ones should not. I'd be interested to hear why you think the opposite.

I think Shimmer's list was based on all the armies that did not make your list.

Also, you regard Lizardmen and Ogres as horde armies? The Slann's shield of the old ones is probably the most legitimate and fluffy 4++ in the game...
If anything horde armies tend to rely more on their general/bsb than more elite armies, so denying them decent protection on their key characters seems needlessly harsh.

SteveW
27-01-2014, 16:20
I think Shimmer's list was based on all the armies that did not make your list.

Also, you regard Lizardmen and Ogres as horde armies? The Slann's shield of the old ones is probably the most legitimate and fluffy 4++ in the game...
If anything horde armies tend to rely more on their general/bsb than more elite armies, so denying them decent protection on their key characters seems needlessly harsh.

You might want to read my first post. Where I explain how all characters but only some armies should have access to them.

Voss
27-01-2014, 18:50
I'de rather nobody had access to any kind of 4+ ward save personally.
Unless it was one with a big downside like not working vs magical attacks, or only working in a challenge.

It's a bit silly when the general and bsb are both toting a solid 4+ ward item in every single game, it makes them seem very commonplace items if everyone is wearing one.

I agree with this. The other items might as well not exist in a lot of cases- the first 95 points of magic items go to the 4++ armour and the 4++ amulet. At this point, the names don't even matter. I'd rather see ward save dropped entirely, or maybe a single 5++ magic armour tha can't be used by any wizards at all (behold, a cost for taking wizards. Novel, I know)

Sh4d0w
28-01-2014, 05:46
I personally want ward saves to be much rarer than they currently are, far too many things have them these days. The first thing to go should be all the items that give ward saves better than a 5+ in the BRB, then troops/monsters that have a 4+ (pheonix guard and destroyers) should be downgraded to a 5+, points adjustment necessary of course.

SteveW
28-01-2014, 06:09
I agree with this. The other items might as well not exist in a lot of cases- the first 95 points of magic items go to the 4++ armour and the 4++ amulet. At this point, the names don't even matter. I'd rather see ward save dropped entirely, or maybe a single 5++ magic armour tha can't be used by any wizards at all (behold, a cost for taking wizards. Novel, I know)

Out of curiosity, what army do you play the most?

Shimmergloom
28-01-2014, 16:10
Take out 4+ wards and you do away with the last thing keeping fighting lords around. There's no point showing up with a fighting lord with just a 5+ lord, he'll die to alot of things before he can strike.

And it's also the last line of defense against death sniping.

N1AK
28-01-2014, 16:27
I'de rather nobody had access to any kind of 4+ ward save personally.
Unless it was one with a big downside like not working vs magical attacks, or only working in a challenge.

It's a bit silly when the general and bsb are both toting a solid 4+ ward item in every single game, it makes them seem very commonplace items if everyone is wearing one.

Personally I think the solution is to put a couple more options in the game that force re-rolls on wards or even ignore them. Put a great weapon in the Dwarf book which forces re-rolls. Create a version of Dryads that ignore ward saves, and put a spell in a Lore that causes D3 hits on a model wounding on his ward save. Regen is controlled by flaming attacks. Flaming attacks on characters are controlled by wards against flaming and Dragon armour.

The benefit of this solution is that it also deals with the overly good nature of ward saves on all units that can get them: Daemon Princes, Warlocks, BotWD etc.

Shimmergloom
28-01-2014, 17:03
I hate that kind of rock paper scissors game design.

It's better to just limit wards on units to 5+, monsters to 4+ and characters to 4+, instead of creating something that's superpowerful against some armies(ones that can't cancel wards) and useless against others.

The problem is the 4+ on infantry that can be increased to 3+ and the 3+ reroll 1's making some characters all but unkillable.

A 4+ in itself though is not too strong, not too powerful. It's just a 50/50 shot, which seems fair.

Snake1311
28-01-2014, 17:10
In all fairness, GW did put a counter to its 4++ saves. Its called the other trickster's shard, and its worth a third of the 4++ amulet.

Get on it ;)

Voss
28-01-2014, 19:11
Out of curiosity, what army do you play the most?
These days? Chaos. Was considering picking up dark elves, but decided I didn't really want to spend the money on the MSU spam army I wanted to play. Had a big and almost completely painted beastman army that was shelved by 7th edition. And I continually toy with o & g lists but never actually try to execute them since most of the interesting stuff doesn't have models in a viable format, and the mainstay units of the army desperately need to be replaced (my 3rd and 4th edition metals look very out of place, especially the marauder stuff)

N1AK
29-01-2014, 09:47
I hate that kind of rock paper scissors game design.


The whole game is rock paper scissors as has been much of combat throughout human history. Cavalry couldn't defeat infantry in squares but infantry that was forced to form squares by the presence of cavalry was vulnerable to cannon for example. Empire Knights are great against Dwarves with hand weapons, but if I can counter with my Great Weapon Hammerers then I'll thrash them.

Just about everything in warhammer has a weakness as well. Armour vs High Strength. Gunlines vs High Speed etc. Ward Saves largely buck that trend because there's only one or two things in the game that in any way weaken them. The idea of counters is to discourage people from loading up on popular choices. If the next couple of books had effective ways to get round character ward saves then players would consider taking weaker ward saves and spending the points on other things like better attacks because they might face those counters.

Another issue is that they are costed very poorly. A 6++ gives a model 20% more wounds but costs 1/3 of the price of a 4++ which gives a model an average of 100% more wounds. If a 6++ was 5pts, a 5++ was 20pts and a 4++ remained 45pts then I think we'd see more people opt for the weaker ward saves because they provided good value for pts.

Vipoid
29-01-2014, 11:35
Another issue is that they are costed very poorly. A 6++ gives a model 20% more wounds but costs 1/3 of the price of a 4++ which gives a model an average of 100% more wounds. If a 6++ was 5pts, a 5++ was 20pts and a 4++ remained 45pts then I think we'd see more people opt for the weaker ward saves because they provided good value for pts.

I think that's a good point.

A 6+ ward save (or 6+ regenerate if you price Seed of Rebirth at the same cost) might be a nice way to spend those last few points. Likewise, a 5+ ward save might be more appealing when it isn't taking up more than half of a hero's item allowance.

Although, I doubt either of the above will see much use on lords - even with their point reductions. Except in rare cases, 4+ ward saves are just too valuable.

N1AK
29-01-2014, 12:59
Although, I doubt either of the above will see much use on lords - even with their point reductions. Except in rare cases, 4+ ward saves are just too valuable.

I agree and also think you'd still see mostly 4++ wards even with the change but at least people might consider magic item combos that include the 5++/6++ if they were cheaper.

That change combined with a couple of counters (I'd love to see a spell or two in mainbook lores that influenced wards) would make the better wards a choice rather than an auto-include.

Captain Collius
29-01-2014, 16:45
Well just to add to this. Most of my high elf heroes run around wearing dragon armor because the usefulness of heavy armor with A dragon bane gem and 6++ ward for ten points is a hell of a deal.

This also gives us an idea of how GW will price wards in the next edition because For HE Heavy Armor is 4 points A dragon bane is currently 5 and a talisman of protection is 15 for a total of 24 points. so this says there is a significant devaluation in the price of wards based on this.

Makaber
31-01-2014, 15:11
I don't mind Ward saves, but I don't like how they've become the no-brainer choice. I'd like to see the other forms of magical defense become more common (stuff like Trickster's Helm, Glittering Scales, and so on), but I suspect the only way that would happen would be to limit the access to Wards. Also, with a universal 4+ Ward available, it becomes far too easy to get an unreasonably good save by stacking it with army-specific Ward affecting abilities (re-rolls and so on).

As a side note, isn't saying "6++ Ward" being a little overkill?