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daftpunkevo
24-01-2014, 20:14
Hi warseer,


First english is not my main language so excuse me for the languages error but I will try to be as clear a possible on my ideas.


First : the actual impact of dragons.


This is not a whine about cannons, even if its as akward for a cannon to be able to touch a flying dragon / eagle / pegasus as it is for the PIT of shade to absorb a DRAGON who can FLY.
The thing about dragon is that ,at least for me, and a think for most of people who like fantasy, a dragon is a Mighty beast of tales,an monstrous behemot with skin as hard as iron who can crush infantry and men not worthy enough.
Only a few must be able to take out a dragon such a powerfull Demon, a Minotaur Lord or a vertuous Hero of mankind (you get it, a GOOD warrior)
What are your opinons on that point ? Do you thinks that dragon should remain the same as they are now (ie less valuable than a chimera or a skaven abo) or have “draconic” rules to boost them ?
I don't know about how the dragon were in previous edition, as I only play since 8ed, but now if a dragon charge into something well it will kill 10-15 models then... be stuck (and most likely challenged by each of champion/ cheap hero) in combat steadfast + bsb+ IP of general.... I find it very akward. What do you think ?


Second : The “10” cap. -This is not only about dragon but big things in general (I will call them titan)


Most caracteristic are cap at 10 (the only one which can go above from memory is the W wich is 12 on the War Mamoth of chaos in Tamurkhan) while I think its okay for “normal” models, I think that larger models could go above that. Did you see the Forgeworld Chaos Emperor Dragon ? How do this have only the same wound as 10 human or skaven or even 3 ogre ? And a breath so small ? Even the wind produced from its wing could actually kill/cripple entire unit.
Also SMAUG will most likely be release for the 3rdHobbit movie. Can you imagine the hugeness of the model ? (think at the scene when he broke the door of erebor, or in front of the giant gold statue in the 2nd movie).
Are you guys, against the idea of some really big model (could be Mega-arachnarock or Emperor d
Dragon or Huge khemri scarab, like 40k Titan) with rules who make them immune to some things : like how can a gobelin even hurt a Emperor Dragon or a Giant Shaggot as hard as a mountain ? How can 24 skink shot down a titan like that in 1 turn of shooting ?
Do you think we can balance them ? Is an immunity of the weak rank and file models too powerfull (looking at you pre-faq K'Daii) ?
What do you think if some titan like a huge mountain chimera have 25 Wounds ?


Sure they will be reserved for special games, but hey had to do something to balance big models against some spell that autoremove some 775 points models with I of 1.

TLDR : Do dragons should be more unique, are you against WHFB Apocalypse ?

Edit the 26/01/14 to clarify : this is not a whine about cannon and their ability to kill "normal dragon" even if i think they should use BS like the bolt thrower to aim anything that can fly, but this is a personnal opinon, not something i whine about here (as it doesn't bother me that much and that there are already 3 threads a week about cannon nerf).
Also when i speak about Titan and such i thinks of really big model, like nothing the actual GW WHFB range have, i don't want the little high elf dragon to have 25W or even 10, as it don't fit the model. ;)

SteveW
24-01-2014, 21:17
If I ever play a game that a 3' model would look right on the table of I'd gladly just house rule the stats.

As an aside, if I ever get to the point where I'm playing 250k point games I'd be rich so I hope it happens :)

hardyworld
24-01-2014, 21:49
I'm not completely against the idea of bringing this idea to Warhammer Fantasy, but I'm not asking for it. I really believe the current scale of all the units and bases really fit the game very well. I begged for larger models back in the 6th Edition (remember how small 'Large Target' models were in those days?), and we have gotten many to choose from in the last 8 years. Another round of size creep really won't help the game in my view. WHF gameplay is different from WH40K in many ways, and I don't see how translating the Apocalypse system to WHF will help the game. There were hints of things like this in the 8th Ed. rulebook. Who knows if it would ever take off (Storm of Magic didn't seem to and it included some truly huge units.)

For friendlies I'd encourage you to come up with some rules and play with some Apocalypse additions to your games! Have fun!

dalezzz
25-01-2014, 01:25
Dragons are plenty tough enough, maybe a few more wounds but that's it .

unkillable stuff is annoying and promotes power builds wich no one likes , also smaug was killed by... Well I won't go into it in case soemeones not read the books :)

Archon of Death
25-01-2014, 01:40
We don't need Adamantine or Force Dragons in Warhammer. It's fine to just have different age group Reds. Mind you certain characters are the equivalent of 15-20 level, while a Star Dragon is like CR 20. Some things just are more awesome than an Old Red Dragon.

We really don't need dragons with a 2+ Ward, -5+ Armour Saves, and a 10/15/3/15/15/12/1/8/10 profile with a 2' template and a Wizard level of 4.

Turion Rilyaloce
25-01-2014, 03:01
I don't think its a problem with the Dragons stats, i think is how they are generally used. The example you used was in a vacuum, the dragon can win, but is far from the best way to use it. Dragons main strength are their mobility and killing power per frontage. They can squeeze a massive amount of high strength attacks into a very small base frontage, which makes them ideal for combo charges. they only need to get corner to corner and can produce all of their attacks. They also have an abundance of special rules like Terror, Fear, and Breath weapons to add to the mix.

It may not make sense that a cannon could pick a very fast and agile beast out of the air, but for game purposes, they would be nearly impossible to contain without them. In the fantasy world they would never land to get stuck in combat, they would just fly over units and carve gouges out of them, but then it would be too hard to respond in game terms.

Dragons are precision tools that work best with support against big blocks, or you have to target medium sized units if you want to go solo. You also need a specific role in mid to get the most out of such a high point unit. The Psychological effect it can have on an enemy can be just as powerful and influential as the model itself, and this is the impact of the large threat radius a dragon provides. In the right hands they can be very good, you just need to figure out how to make it work with the rest of your army. There are very few unit that work optimally in this game without support.

StygianBeach
25-01-2014, 09:56
I think having Powerful Samug Dragons is fine for scenario play, but not so much for general play.

Kingly
25-01-2014, 10:05
There are some extra dragons in the monstrous arcanum daftpunkevo have you checked them out? But generally yes, I'd have to agree with the group, they seem a fine mix between hard yet not until label which would be rubbish as I love Johnny scrims the average trooper!

Turion Rilyaloce
25-01-2014, 19:21
That being said I agree with the OP that there are too few wound on monstrous creature, two more on average would be fine and not break the game I think.

The fact that every strength can wound on a 6 worst case hurts beasts too. I think that is where you're comparison of a dragons wounds compared to a skaven comes from. If strength 3 had to roll a 6 and then a 4 to wound like shooting modifiers then they would be fine with the number of wounds they have now.

But dragons have Armour save to compensate so maybe just a couple of extra wounds.

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dalezzz
25-01-2014, 20:42
Wounding on a 6 is fine , 12 attacks per wound assuming the beast has a reasonable WS , greatweapons obviously wound more ... But they should :)

Turion Rilyaloce
25-01-2014, 23:40
You're right dalezzz. I hadn't run the math, so that is pretty good already not counting AS

Archon of Death
26-01-2014, 00:02
The issue is cannons and such. I think large fliers should have something like 40k's flying rules. Perhaps hitting on a 6+ only. Stone Throwers couldn't hit them, cannons would need a 4+ to hit them, and bolt throwers would work as normal.

SteveW
26-01-2014, 00:07
The issue is cannons and such. I think large fliers should have something like 40k's flying rules. Perhaps hitting on a 6+ only. Stone Throwers couldn't hit them, cannons would need a 4+ to hit them, and bolt throwers would work as normal.

To do this they would need the flying rule to let you remain in the air. Do you think it would be fair in a game like this to have a mage on a flyer imune to 90% of the battlefield because they cannot kill a flyer?

Archon of Death
26-01-2014, 00:11
To do this they would need the flying rule to let you remain in the air. Do you think it would be fair in a game like this to have a mage on a flyer imune to 90% of the battlefield because they cannot kill a flyer?

True. Ah well, dragons and such not will just have to remain on the shelf. Perhaps one day cannons will get a nerf and accompanying point reduction to finally let the dragons soar free.

Nubl0
26-01-2014, 04:11
I honestly wonder if people that talk about dragons like the above actually play many games. My keeper of secrets that cannot fly and only has 5 wounds has survived many games against triple cannon empire lists, a combination of multiple threats, warmachine hunters, terrain use and you know... Cannons not always rolling 6 wounds has seen to that.

It's plenty easy to keep a dragon lord alive imo, the reason you don't see them is not that they die too easy, but that if you take one you can't usually fit a wizard lord in, thus making you more vulnerable to magic by lacking a 4 plus dispel and having no spells yourself. Nerf the magic phase a little or make combat lords have some nice passive army buffs and you will start seeing more monster mounted lords.

Oh and cannon balls hitting rider and mount needs a tweak.

daftpunkevo
26-01-2014, 07:09
There are some extra dragons in the monstrous arcanum daftpunkevo have you checked them out? But generally yes, I'd have to agree with the group, they seem a fine mix between hard yet not until label which would be rubbish as I love Johnny scrims the average trooper!

Yes and i can't wait to pre order the shard dragon ! :D such a shame 90% of their team is now working on Horus Heresy range..
I hope the model will be good because from the artwork it seems like FW as never scult a kit as difficult as this one will be.


I honestly wonder if people that talk about dragons like the above actually play many games. My keeper of secrets that cannot fly and only has 5 wounds has survived many games against triple cannon empire lists, a combination of multiple threats, warmachine hunters, terrain use and you know... Cannons not always rolling 6 wounds has seen to that.

It's plenty easy to keep a dragon lord alive imo, the reason you don't see them is not that they die too easy, but that if you take one you can't usually fit a wizard lord in, thus making you more vulnerable to magic by lacking a 4 plus dispel and having no spells yourself. Nerf the magic phase a little or make combat lords have some nice passive army buffs and you will start seeing more monster mounted lords.

Oh and cannon balls hitting rider and mount needs a tweak.

I play myself a Dragon Lord, and dislike only two things : be carefull if you combo charge something, do it with something that don't bleed combat res, and that you can't challenge the 2 empire heroes + champion at the same time and crush them but you have to do it 1 by 1, loosing precious turns.
Sure this can be avoided by charging only something with no character or champion in it, but sometimes you need to flank charge that juicy unit. :D

Shadeseraph
26-01-2014, 13:21
It's plenty easy to keep a dragon lord alive imo, the reason you don't see them is not that they die too easy, but that if you take one you can't usually fit a wizard lord in, thus making you more vulnerable to magic by lacking a 4 plus dispel and having no spells yourself. Nerf the magic phase a little or make combat lords have some nice passive army buffs and you will start seeing more monster mounted lords.

I've run an archmage on dragon quite successfully, even with cannons here and there! Though, I've got to admit that the Frosties were the ones to take the hits for the archmage.

Yes, I fielded two frosties. I wanted to try a full monster mash list. I felt dirty for doing so, happy now?

Frankly, I have to agree cannons are not as much of a problem as people say. After all, a simple hill will make the beast night invulnerable to cannons. The only exception tends to be, as Nubl0 said, ridden monsters.

Xerkics
26-01-2014, 14:07
The problem with dragons is things like skaven rank bonus and super accurate cannons. I had a almost 800 points lord on dragon fighting like 200 point unit of skaven forced into a challenge won challenge then mowed down due to skaven rank bonus even though i technically won the combat.

SteveW
26-01-2014, 14:54
The problem with dragons is things like skaven rank bonus and super accurate cannons. I had a almost 800 points lord on dragon fighting like 200 point unit of skaven forced into a challenge won challenge then mowed down due to skaven rank bonus even though i technically won the combat.

Rank bonus stops at 3, even for skaven.

Turion Rilyaloce
26-01-2014, 17:57
I honestly wonder if people that talk about dragons like the above actually play many games. My keeper of secrets that cannot fly and only has 5 wounds has survived many games against triple cannon empire lists, a combination of multiple threats, warmachine hunters, terrain use and you know... Cannons not always rolling 6 wounds has seen to that.

It's plenty easy to keep a dragon lord alive imo, the reason you don't see them is not that they die too easy, but that if you take one you can't usually fit a wizard lord in, thus making you more vulnerable to magic by lacking a 4 plus dispel and having no spells yourself. Nerf the magic phase a little or make combat lords have some nice passive army buffs and you will start seeing more monster mounted lords.

Oh and cannon balls hitting rider and mount needs a tweak.

Agreed, you can't completely avoid the risk of war machines, nor should you be able to, but if you take the right steps to mitigate them when playing against war machines its not as bad as some people think.

Xerkics
26-01-2014, 20:49
Rank bonus stops at 3, even for skaven.

That can be enough to lose combat if you kill something that has 2-3 wounds in a challenge , naturally dragon doesnt get to go at all ,and enemy has bonus from banner and 3 ranks bonus. And its sometimes impossible to side or rear charge a skaven unit because of how many units there are , i,e no space to land to flank.

Ideally something as expensive as ridden Dragons should be unbreakable while the rider is alive or They would be fine if the dragon could attack the unit and rider the challenger. Or if you could still thunderstomp the unit if not fight it . I own 3 different monsters and the only one that is playable is the Daemon Prince and arguably he is well above the power curve ridden monsters really need a buff.