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View Full Version : Is updating the codices during 6th ed wishful thinking or could it happen?



Herkamer63
25-01-2014, 03:03
Well it's been out for 2 weeks now and all over the net and within the local communities, Tyranids are being ripped to shreds not in the games (though it's possible), but what is being said about them. Some include the codex "being boring", others on the stats, and, most of all, the rules. To the contrary of these bad reports, some people are actually doing quite with their Nids. While I'm not going to say if they are bad or good, I will say, like other codices, there is room for improvements. There have been rumors swirling about how GW will do there WD Weekly and most of those sources have been consistent on possible rule updates. We also have data slates that are coming out every month to improve army capabilities (mainly formations). While I still want to build a Nid army, I may wait for a while and see what happens. Back to the subject at hand, I think alot people, and we've seen them, in our hobby who are WAY too quick with their judgement, and are so doom and gloomy saying things like "OH THAT GW, THEY SCREWED US AGAIN, WHY DO THEY ONLY TARGET US (insert codex)PLAYERS" when it comes to their army. My favorite is "I WANT MY ULTRA-MEGA-SUPER-EPIC-DEATH ROLLING-SPINE STOMPING-UNSTOPPABLE-CHARGING-ASSAULT UNITS BACK, THE GAME'S OVER WITHOUT IT" (maybe not in those words, but close to it). I think what alot of us forget that we do live in a different age now, and so much can be improved through the net. Of course, it depends when GW will get to it. In this case of the Tyranid codex, I think we shouldn't put them away yet. I like the data slates and, if the rumors hold true, the way WD is heading. Who knows, maybe mycetic spores will make a return to the codex, or a Hive Tyrant can have a 2+ 5+ again. There is still much that is coming. I said in one of my earlier posts 6th ed is by far my favorite ed because of what has been and will be coming out. It's not perfect, there is room for improvement some areas, but it's a step in the right direction. Tyranids, imo, will get the treatment they deserve. Just give it time. Now I will admit, those same people will think I'm being too hopeful. Maybe they're right. It could be me giving up people's hopes. Maybe Tyranids are no longer viable as an army anymore. Who can say? Just given of what is, or supposedly is, to come, I think we could see not just a better codex, but a better game. We could be seeing something from the past that made game awesome make a grand comeback. So what do you think? Wishful thinking or do you think something could come along and make things for the better? As always, please keep it civil. Go ahead and begin.

Zothos
25-01-2014, 03:10
Your text wall is very intimidating.

Herkamer63
25-01-2014, 03:27
Your text wall is very intimidating.

At a time like this, I like getting my point across.

MajorWesJanson
25-01-2014, 03:51
At a time like this, I like getting my point across.

Your point would be conveyed much more clearly with line breaks and paragraphs.

Zothos
25-01-2014, 04:02
Your point would be conveyed much more clearly with line breaks and paragraphs.

What Wes said.

Dkoz
25-01-2014, 04:24
So much text :cries: it hurts my eyes.

Surgency
25-01-2014, 05:46
Your point would be conveyed much more clearly with line breaks and paragraphs.

I read the top line and saw mysetic in the text. Otherwise I'm not sure what all was said. I can only assume it was another complaint about tyranids from the small bit I read

Sent from my SPH-L710 using Tapatalk

Wishing
25-01-2014, 08:16
Well it's been out for 2 weeks now and all over the net and within the local communities, Tyranids are being ripped to shreds not in the games (though it's possible), but what is being said about them. Some include the codex "being boring", others on the stats, and, most of all, the rules.

To the contrary of these bad reports, some people are actually doing quite with their Nids. While I'm not going to say if they are bad or good, I will say, like other codices, there is room for improvements. There have been rumors swirling about how GW will do there WD Weekly and most of those sources have been consistent on possible rule updates. We also have data slates that are coming out every month to improve army capabilities (mainly formations).

While I still want to build a Nid army, I may wait for a while and see what happens. Back to the subject at hand, I think alot people, and we've seen them, in our hobby who are WAY too quick with their judgement, and are so doom and gloomy saying things like "OH THAT GW, THEY SCREWED US AGAIN, WHY DO THEY ONLY TARGET US (insert codex)PLAYERS" when it comes to their army. My favorite is "I WANT MY ULTRA-MEGA-SUPER-EPIC-DEATH ROLLING-SPINE STOMPING-UNSTOPPABLE-CHARGING-ASSAULT UNITS BACK, THE GAME'S OVER WITHOUT IT" (maybe not in those words, but close to it).

I think what alot of us forget that we do live in a different age now, and so much can be improved through the net. Of course, it depends when GW will get to it. In this case of the Tyranid codex, I think we shouldn't put them away yet. I like the data slates and, if the rumors hold true, the way WD is heading. Who knows, maybe mycetic spores will make a return to the codex, or a Hive Tyrant can have a 2+ 5+ again. There is still much that is coming.

I said in one of my earlier posts 6th ed is by far my favorite ed because of what has been and will be coming out. It's not perfect, there is room for improvement some areas, but it's a step in the right direction. Tyranids, imo, will get the treatment they deserve. Just give it time.

Now I will admit, those same people will think I'm being too hopeful. Maybe they're right. It could be me giving up people's hopes. Maybe Tyranids are no longer viable as an army anymore. Who can say? Just given of what is, or supposedly is, to come, I think we could see not just a better codex, but a better game. We could be seeing something from the past that made game awesome make a grand comeback. So what do you think? Wishful thinking or do you think something could come along and make things for the better? As always, please keep it civil. Go ahead and begin.

lantzkev
25-01-2014, 08:24
hey now that's a bit more ligible and doesn't read like a back of prescription bottle. I'll give you a B for reformating, but you should cut some clutter from your initial statement and make it consice and to the point. If in your opening argument you have to say "back to the subject on hand" it becomes clear you haven't a clear idea to convey and you lose the reader at this point if your prior comments have not already.

Menthak
25-01-2014, 08:26
Well it's been out for 2 weeks now and all over the net and within the local communities, Tyranids are being ripped to shreds not in the games (though it's possible), but what is being said about them. Some include the codex "being boring", others on the stats, and, most of all, the rules.

To the contrary of these bad reports, some people are actually doing quite with their Nids. While I'm not going to say if they are bad or good, I will say, like other codices, there is room for improvements. There have been rumors swirling about how GW will do there WD Weekly and most of those sources have been consistent on possible rule updates. We also have data slates that are coming out every month to improve army capabilities (mainly formations).

While I still want to build a Nid army, I may wait for a while and see what happens. Back to the subject at hand, I think alot people, and we've seen them, in our hobby who are WAY too quick with their judgement, and are so doom and gloomy saying things like "OH THAT GW, THEY SCREWED US AGAIN, WHY DO THEY ONLY TARGET US (insert codex)PLAYERS" when it comes to their army. My favorite is "I WANT MY ULTRA-MEGA-SUPER-EPIC-DEATH ROLLING-SPINE STOMPING-UNSTOPPABLE-CHARGING-ASSAULT UNITS BACK, THE GAME'S OVER WITHOUT IT" (maybe not in those words, but close to it).

I think what alot of us forget that we do live in a different age now, and so much can be improved through the net. Of course, it depends when GW will get to it. In this case of the Tyranid codex, I think we shouldn't put them away yet. I like the data slates and, if the rumors hold true, the way WD is heading. Who knows, maybe mycetic spores will make a return to the codex, or a Hive Tyrant can have a 2+ 5+ again. There is still much that is coming.

I said in one of my earlier posts 6th ed is by far my favorite ed because of what has been and will be coming out. It's not perfect, there is room for improvement some areas, but it's a step in the right direction. Tyranids, imo, will get the treatment they deserve. Just give it time.

Now I will admit, those same people will think I'm being too hopeful. Maybe they're right. It could be me giving up people's hopes. Maybe Tyranids are no longer viable as an army anymore. Who can say? Just given of what is, or supposedly is, to come, I think we could see not just a better codex, but a better game. We could be seeing something from the past that made game awesome make a grand comeback. So what do you think? Wishful thinking or do you think something could come along and make things for the better? As always, please keep it civil. Go ahead and begin.

Thank you for that.

Basically the entire point you're putting across is that we shouldn't judge sixth or their codices until we've seen them go from 0.8 to the full 1.1?

That's not gonna happen, there is almost no chance of a major codex update.

Wishing
25-01-2014, 08:37
Just for the record, I just reposted the OP with paragraphs added, I'm not the OP. :)

I agree that the point of the OP isn't terribly clear, but I think it is: There is a rumour that WD will start including more data slates that are additions to existing codexes. This means that there is a chance that the Tyranid codex will become improved in the near future through WD rules additions. Do you think this is likely or not? Basically like Menthak is saying and responding to.

MajorWesJanson
25-01-2014, 08:53
I don't expect a second print/version of any 6th codex until all of them are updated in hardback. After that point, CSM have seniority on a poor book that needs fixed (Helldrake toned down, other units bumped up)

bork da basher
25-01-2014, 09:22
the internet is famously quick to judge new codex's but in the case of the tyranids it IS a terrible codex. when i first read it i knew it was going to be bad, when testing it i found it to be if anything much worse than my predictions. in 30+ games vs nids among my group we recorded 1 win, in the games i played vs them the nid player was calling game turn 4. iv'e watched dozens of batreps on youtube too, for more insight and have yet to see nids beat anyone, using any combination of models and a lot of these are being used by experienced generals. theres a few things in the codex which don't outright suck but the truth of the matter is the majority of the entries are useless and synapse and IB rules cripple the army. it's not internet whining and doom saying, it's flat out truth. whoever claims to be doing good needs to film their exploits and show the world how it's happening because for the life of me i can't imagine how anyone is doing well with this codex, and by doing well i mean consistently well. not iv'e won a game in 20 so they can't be all that bad.

the codex update will not happen in the form of a reprint or anything of the sort that would be practical for US, the customer, we already bought the codex, what do they care. if anything happens we will get dataslates and perhaps WD articles and for a price, why give something away if you can sell it instead, right? im waiting with baited breath to see if GW will do as i expect them to and release 'the antidote' to nids this way. it'll then be clear why the codex is so bad, it can only be a deliberate attempt to sell more stuff. IF that's the case (and i'm not saying it is yet, but i suspect) then it's the lowest dirtiest trick iv'e ever seen them pull and the backlash they will get from it will be huge.

yes, this is a digital age and i'm all for more rules to spice things up IF they are relevant and for the good of the game, lately GW is just churning out garbage that is designed to do nothing more than rake in cash with no regard to game balance whatsoever. what is escalation but another attempt to turn 40k into apocalypse. they couldn't get it to catch on one way so they're forcing it on you in another.

in all honesty you do sound too hopeful. which is fine if it had some evidence that GW might in fact do the 'right thing' instead of just pursue the biggest profit margin. the cold hard fact of the matter is GW do not care about the game as WE play it. they don't care about community (which they did their best to stamp out) they don't care about tournaments, game balance, codex creep, broken rules or anything. they care about money and nothing they have done in years suggests anything other than that. it's very clear GW is run by the marketing department, everything they make now is an advert for something else. rules are written to push new products regardless of whether those rules benefit the game or not and for a good few years it's been to the detriment of the game as a whole. allies and flyers being the 2 main culprits. great for sales, terrible for the game and lately escalation and fortifications.

i for one have a very pessimistic view of GW, iv'e been playing their games for 20 years and seen them devolve into something i strongly dislike. i don't expect anything but the worst from them and they have done nothing to prove that expectation wrong in years. they make no sense to me anymore, so i just play the game with what i have and vote with my wallet by not buying anything from them.

that turned in to more of a rant than i intended do.

lantzkev
25-01-2014, 09:39
have yet to see nids beat anyone, using any combination of models and a lot of these are being used by experienced generals.
I'm going to trot the same pony others have out here... but how does that tournament shake out the Throne of skulls....


in 30+ games vs nids among my group we recorded 1 win

man you've gotten a game a day in and then some as tyrannids since their release... you workhorse you.


so i just play the game with what i have and vote with my wallet by not buying anything from them.

So did you buy the new codex? did you buy any new models? Did you buy the new codex and expect your old strats and composition to be perfectly suited for the current meta and game play? Do you own any of the flying types or did your opponents show up with a single flyer and you said "whelp good game" in all 30 games?

Spiney Norman
25-01-2014, 09:47
How disappointing, I was expecting a sensible discussion about the remaining codexes to be updated to 6E, and I all I find is another "lets pour hate on the Tyranid players for not liking their codex" thread.

Some people need to realise that the only thing worse than whining about your codex is whining about someone else who is whining about their codex.

Shame, the title had such potential

T10
25-01-2014, 10:33
But Tyranid players deserve being hared on for not accepting their Codex. I can of course only speak for every single Chaos Space Marine, Chaos Daemons, Dark Angels and Ultramarines Space Marine player out here.

-T10

bork da basher
25-01-2014, 10:45
in 30+ games vs nids among my group we recorded 1 win
man you've gotten a game a day in and then some as tyrannids since their release... you workhorse you.

so i just play the game with what i have and vote with my wallet by not buying anything from them.
So did you buy the new codex? did you buy any new models? Did you buy the new codex and expect your old strats and composition to be perfectly suited for the current meta and game play? Do you own any of the flying types or did your opponents show up with a single flyer and you said "whelp good game" in all 30 games?

I personally have not played 30 games i never claimed to have. if you read what i said my GROUP has played 30+ games. there are 11 of us and we've done pretty much done nothing but play games vs tyranids since it's release, you know, to actually test it out. is that more acceptable to you? just to explain myself further as you seem so quick to jump down my throat. the tyranid player in our group has a sizable army. probably around 6-7000pts worth, with some forgeworld big bugs and a whole lot of stuff to choose from. we were able to split his collection up into several armies and either make or proxy almost any unit in the new codex. he hasn't bought any of the new kits (isn't likely to either) so we proxied when we needed to. the new models were the first things we wanted to try out, especially the new harpy/crone.

to clarify i did not buy the codex, i downloaded it like i download all my codex's because they cost too much money, as i said before, i vote with my wallet these days, people might rail at me for that but at least i'll admit it. i didn't buy any figures either, i don't play tyranids at all in fact. i DO however have an interest in my hobby and take an interest when a new army comes out regardless of how it's viewed on 'tinterwebz. i like to know how armies play and what to expect to face. my group took a special interest in the book after it was said to be pretty bad so we took it upon ourselves to put it to the test to see if the internet drama was based on any truth (iv'e made numerous other posts suggesting how we did that and what we found) so my bad opinion of the codex is in fact mired in the sad truth gleaned from what iv'e experienced or witnessed and not just an angry nerd raging nid player shouting down his new codex as you seem to take me for.

Spiney Norman
25-01-2014, 11:02
But Tyranid players deserve being hared on for not accepting their Codex. I can of course only speak for every single Chaos Space Marine, Chaos Daemons, Dark Angels and Ultramarines Space Marine player out here.

-T10

Just wow, I can only hope that was intended as sarcasm, IMHO dark angels is one of the best designed codexes in the game, its not OP, but the synergy works really well, and the army is great fun to play, that a completely different vibe than I am getting from the Tyranid players I know.

Nids feels a bit like WFB Tomb kings in the sense that the inbuilt weaknesses of the list are so massive that it feels like the army itself is working against you the whole time, its not so much that its hard to win with them, its that just playing with the army feels like a chore.

bork da basher
25-01-2014, 11:30
Nids feels a bit like WFB Tomb kings in the sense that the inbuilt weaknesses of the list are so massive that it feels like the army itself is working against you the whole time, its not so much that its hard to win with them, its that just playing with the army feels like a chore.

i made similar conclusions myself, they feel very much like old undead where once you lose your general (synapse) the army crumbles.

i have to disagree with you when you say its not hard for them to win. from what i've seen it really is. in an objective based game it's incredibly difficult for an army that has to operate under a bubble of synapse to capture and hold objectives that aren't in the immediate area of the army and in the path it's intending to travel in. it's difficult to send units and snatch objectives out on flanks or hold objectives behind your advance and expect your troops units to hold them without synapse support, which you can't really afford to spare from the main advance, spread out too much or leave behind. you also have to consider that a good player will target synapse almost exclusively and in my experience they weren't able to survive long enough to hold the army together for objectives to even matter in most of my games. it's very much a uphill struggle for them. it's not to say it's impossible but synapse and IB really limit how the army can effectively move around the table which usually decreases every turn of the game as you inevitably lose more synapse creatures, the bubble you operate under effectively shrinks and forces you to do things you wouldn't chose to otherwise. other armies have no such limitation. it's my opinion the tyranid book in itself isn't terrible when it comes to the actual unit entries, it's just that synapse and IB force you to build very samey armies that offer you really only a handful of very limited choices of how to play.

Herkamer63
25-01-2014, 13:27
other than my lack of putting in paragraphs, which i apologize about because i wasn't thinking about it, some people, not everyone, posting on here are still missing the point. everyone just need to be patient. sorry for those who don't want to read this. with the rate the codices are being released, we will see updates for armies and units much sooner than we had expected in the past. at least that's my prediction. with the consistent reports coming out, i think it'll happen, something like it, so we won't have to wait until all codices are released. i honestly think CSM will be first on the list.

Imperialis_Dominatus
25-01-2014, 14:32
Supplements tack on rules, organization, and wargear to books. They will do nothing to fix fundamental problems with Codices.

I find your excess of faith disturbing. I see no evidence that GW would update or patch their books.

Typecasting people who complain about the quality of a codex GW puts out as whining about power levels and wanting their Codex to be TauDar seems... hasty.

malisteen
25-01-2014, 14:40
If GW can charge us for it, it will happen. It's already happening.

dangerboyjim
25-01-2014, 15:14
As other people have said a lot of the problem is that Tyranids only really have one tactic, stream across the board absorbing huge casualties as you go.

For some of the more finessed missions, that's just not practical.

GW may want to update the Tyranids sooner than others, but realistically it's not going to happen for 3-4 years. I really hope they don't try and fix it with dataslates and the like because having to buy a codex and spend as much again on downloads just to get you level with another codex, just sucks. I think our gaming group is going to ban them anyway outside of apocalypse (where anything goes). When it's my turn to put the campaign rules together, dataslates, allies, escalation and all the other bloat is definitely off the table.

And back to what I think was the original point, no, I don't think any codex will be updated in 6th. Partly because I think once GW do a codex for 6th, they consider that is it for this edition. (based on my perception, not anyone at GQ telling me that is the case) but mostly because if 7th is around the corner, and apparently it is, then 6th will not be with us much longer.

gwarsh41
25-01-2014, 16:28
First off, yes, I believe all books will be updated to 6th. Second off, I am sick and tired of people using every opportunity to complain about tyranids. It is just getting sad.
If you were asking if codexes will have a V2 in 6th? No, that has never happened and there is no point for it.

Spiney Norman
25-01-2014, 16:45
First off, yes, I believe all books will be updated to 6th. Second off, I am sick and tired of people using every opportunity to complain about tyranids. It is just getting sad.
If you were asking if codexes will have a V2 in 6th? No, that has never happened and there is no point for it.

huh? Are you kidding, they have like 5 months to release Blood angels, space wolves, Grey Knights, Dark Eldar, Necrons, Orks & IG (not sure if I missed any), and we have solid rumours of a release order until may that includes only ONE of those armies. Or are you one of these guys that doubts the growing tide of reliable sources that is saying 7th Ed this summer?

When it was just 40K radio I was a little skeptical despite their impeccable record, but when Darnok said how convinced he was, I resigned myself to it. there is just too much noise about it now for it to be totally fake imo.

I'd guess that the most we'll get is one more codex after IG before 7th edition hits, but it wouldn't surprise me at all if IG (or whatever they are going to call it) is the last codex of 6th edition.

gwarsh41
25-01-2014, 18:37
I don't belIeve that "7th" edition will be anything more than 6th with escalation and stronghold. The current books will still be up to date.

We will still be in 6th edition this fall.

IcedCrow
25-01-2014, 18:39
Let people have their pacifier. Just expect epic rage when there is no 7th edition.

Spiney Norman
25-01-2014, 20:00
Let people have their pacifier. Just expect epic rage when there is no 7th edition.

Well whatever it is, Darnok and 40k radio are both fairly confidently calling it 7th edition, so there's a pretty good chance that is what GW will be calling it ;), but I guess you know best.

Despite the rage on warseer and the obvious broken bits of the game, I really like the way 6th Ed has gone so far, even if "7th edition" is just taking stronghold assault and escalation and making them fully bonofide parts of the core rule book and integrating the existing FAQs that will be a great day for the game IMO. I don't really understand the distrustful "I don't want a new edition" attitude, are you actually expecting them to make things worse than they are currently?

On the other hand my bank account be very happy if I don't have to plunk another 50 down on a core rule book so soon after 6th...

DoctorTom
25-01-2014, 21:56
To the OP: I don't think it's a case of some people missing your point, it's that they reject it.

As for seeing updates during 6th edition, I doubt it if there's anything to the rumors of 7th dropping this summer. EDIT: whether they call it 7th, 6.1 or 6.5. Wizards of the Coast went from 3.0 to 3.5 for AD&D and managed to churn out all their books another time. It will be a new edition whatever they call it.

Charistoph
26-01-2014, 01:39
First off, yes, I believe all books will be updated to 6th.

My LGS manager who has some reasonably good contacts has had hints from them that all army books and codices will be updated before the next edition of both games, aside from the Battle Sisters. I'm inclined to agree. They REALLY seem to want everyone on this new format.


If you were asking if codexes will have a V2 in 6th? No, that has never happened and there is no point for it.

It has happened, several times. Chaos Marines and Imperial Guard had both the early 3rd pamphlet codices and a second come out before 4th. Fantasy 6th Edition saw Dwarfs be their first army book, and its last.

Do I think it likely that we'll see a 6.5 codex? No, I do not. They are more likely to add a new army (also one of the objectives I heard for 40K and Fantasy) at this point than do a rehash.

Besides, a little FAQ can go a LONG way, just ask Marine Command Squads.

dangerboyjim
26-01-2014, 02:16
My LGS manager who has some reasonably good contacts has had hints from them that all army bookds and codices will be updated before the next edition of both games, aside from the Battle Sisters. I'm inclined to agree. They REALLY seem to want everyone on this new format.



It has happened, several times. Chaos Marines and Imperial Guard had both the early 3rd pamphlet codices and a second come out before 4th. Fantasy 6th Edition saw Dwarfs be their first army book, and its last.

Do I think it likely that we'll see a 6.5 codex? No, I do not. They are more likely to add a new army (also one of the objectives I heard for 40K and Fantasy) at this point than do a rehash.

Besides, a little FAQ can goa LONG way, just ask Marine Command Sqauds.

ALL of that makes sense. I really don't need or welcome a new edition, I would much rather have all 6th edition armies and a new one, but the people talking about 7th have really good records...

Grand Master Azrael
26-01-2014, 02:19
The Dataslates aren't to improve our armies, they're an attempt for GW to make even more money from armies which already have good codexes

Menthak
26-01-2014, 11:24
The Dataslates aren't to improve our armies, they're an attempt for GW to make even more money from armies which already have good codexes

They can be both.

IcedCrow
26-01-2014, 14:38
They can be both.

Its more fun to be cynical.

Sgt John Keel
26-01-2014, 15:26
They can be both.

They can, but will they? And if they will be, is that a good thing? Seems to me like buying dataslates for "balance" fixes to your army may lead to perverse incentives (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perverse_incentive).


Its more fun to be cynical.

I expected you to be more cynical, since many dataslates seem to reward spamming the same units. :D

Menthak
26-01-2014, 15:39
They can, but will they? And if they will be, is that a good thing? Seems to me like buying dataslates for "balance" fixes to your army may lead to perverse incentives (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perverse_incentive).



I expected you to be more cynical, since many dataslates seem to reward spamming the same units. :D

I said can. As in, they have the capacity to be, whether or not they will in the future remains to be seen.

Sgt John Keel
26-01-2014, 15:48
I said can. As in, they have the capacity to be, whether or not they will in the future remains to be seen.

Yeah, I know what you said. I wasn't as much asking you these questions, as stating them for the sake of discussion.

IcedCrow
26-01-2014, 16:00
They can, but will they? And if they will be, is that a good thing? Seems to me like buying dataslates for "balance" fixes to your army may lead to perverse incentives (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perverse_incentive).



I expected you to be more cynical, since many dataslates seem to reward spamming the same units. :D

That's the nature of the game unfortunately. I try to find the areas I enjoy and focus on those :)