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View Full Version : Moving to pastures anew after 10+ years.



Nazguire
28-01-2014, 00:04
I've decided for various reasons to leave, finally, the GW hobby to try new game systems. I'm particularly interested in Warmachine and the X-Wing game. Both seem hilariously good fun for an hour or two over a beer with mates.


Probably going to go with Warmachine (using Khador - Soviet Russia is all kinds of great) due to it's lower entry cost, relatively cheap rules, awesome models and no holds barred rules set. Really appeals to me.


The main reason has become price. I'm now a full time Law student and as a result I've taken a 75% pay drop. As such, a $65 AUD box for a Chaos Marine box, or $110 for a Defiler, has become basically unfeasible. Another reason is due to GW's unwillingness to move with the times. With Warmachine,to have an awesome game, I need a fraction of what GW requires and each model seems to be more than just a wound counter.

I love the 40K universe, and buy BL books regularly. Ebooks cost far more than they should, etc. The irregular updates to Codexes leave you waiting several years for new models, rules, etc and then you pay an arm and a leg. Privateer Press seem to do this rarely, and rules are still relatively cheap, and models for all factions are always being rolled out.

I'm not here to whine as we all have heard similar arguments etc

Question I ask, without turning this to a price thread (please leave price out of this) what would you like to see GW do to make 40K more accessible for people? Fully embrace the digital revolution? Rolling waves of new miniatures and units with rules in WD? Longer edition life spans that can be accessed without buying a $80 book?

Personally, ignoring price, I'd like to see GW use the editions for a lot longer than they do, and provide free or cheaper rules access when they need to update something. A PDF of the bare bones rules with nothing else on their website would be great.

The data slates and supplements are great step in that direction I feel, but more could be done with it. I do enjoy the 'large armies feel' of 40K and don't want that done away with, but I feel I, personally, need more bang for my buck.

So off to Warmachine for now! When I'm printing money as a lawyer I'll be back to GW! Still gonna keep buying BL products and keeping up to date with it all, but I must defend the motherland now! and convert my friends to Warmachine (or it'll be very lonely Warmachine filled years of Uni...)

Scribe of Khorne
28-01-2014, 00:34
Release a balanced, tight, competitive skirmish level, 40K rules set, with associated boxed release (like battle force but far smaller) that contains the rules for the contained units.

That would be the 'gateway' for players.

That said, enjoy your games, I dont see warmachine as any different really than 40K, or malifaux, or whatever, there is no perfect game. :]

Nazguire
28-01-2014, 01:25
Oh yeah, there is in such thing as a perfect game, I agree. It's just been appealing to me for a while lately with its cool rule set, lower entry cost, seemingly better support and Privateer Press' community interaction.

The skirmish thing for 40K would be great. They had something like that a while ago, think it was Combat Patrol and 40K in 40 Minutes and they were fun to play.

I'd also be keen on Battleship Gothic re-released with full support, or Necromunda but there is next to zero chance of that happening.

Theocracity
28-01-2014, 01:57
Good luck to ya. As always, it's a leisure activity, so you should always follow your interests and your wallet. I've been curious about X-Wing myself, since you mention it.

That being said, I'm not sure I get the concept of 'quitting' GW in general. If paying attention to other game systems and not spending money on GW in the forseeable future is quitting, then I quit several times a year as my interest wanes and waxes ;).

Surgency
28-01-2014, 02:13
Probably going to go with Warmachine (using Khador - Soviet Russia is all kinds of great) due to it's lower entry cost
.........
The main reason has become price. I'm now a full time Law student and as a result I've taken a 75% pay drop.

To have even a moderately competitive 35 point Menoth force (Sevvy, Flameguard, couple of jacks, choir, wracks), I spent as much as I spent on almost any 2000 point 40k army (outside of rulebooks, tokens, etc).

And once people built the hard counters to my 35 point force(because Warmachine is a game of hard counters), I was faced with a choice of spending more to change my forces (new casters, new strats, new units) or just lose all the time to those hard counters.



I'm particularly interested in...the X-Wing game

A blast to play, and well worth the money. I would suggest this over Warmachine in a heartbeat. Be warned though, once your opponents start to figure out your tactics, you'll be forced to purchase new ships here as well :p

Nazguire
28-01-2014, 03:13
A tactical squad in Australia costs $62 from memory. The average war jack costs about $30-$40

Wargaming is going to be expensive no matter what way you look at it, I realise that. But compared to current GW prices to what the AUD prices for Warmachine is, it seems far more cost effective.

Plus I'm a bit disillusioned by some of the recent releases. Riptides, Wraithknights, etc, in my opinion have no place in standard 40K games. They're too over the top, and skew an army into killing them or losing. Too often I've seen army lists tailored to defeating the Wraithknight, not defeating the Eldar. That suggests to me that these models and rules have no place in the game at that level.

I believe that GW are trying to take 40K, kicking and screaming, to a place that it's not: massive OOT armies with the war gaming equivalents of nuclear warheads stomping around. It's a transparent attempt to make more money and by making Wraithknight and Riptides so great, they become no brainers and this skews the games far too much.

By all accounts I've read this doesn't seem to happen to a real great extent in Warmachine, so I'm interested to see what a couple of armies that don't have super-units can do in a balanced skirmish level game!

Please don't mistake me for having sour grapes due to losing some games either, far from it!

I'll still be well into the BL stuff (if they release some books sometime soon, that is...) and keep up to date with GW happenings, but I feel that GW has lost the direction they want to take 40K in most areas and it's putting me off.

Surgency
28-01-2014, 03:28
By all accounts I've read this doesn't seem to happen to a real great extent in Warmachine, so I'm interested to see what a couple of armies that don't have super-units can do in a balanced skirmish level game!

This is a bit off... Each faction in Warmachine has super units, and supercasters that are just several cuts above. With Menoth, for example, Exemplar Errants are pretty much a pinnacle unit, and feature in many lists, as does the Reckoner 'jack, because they're just that much better than everything else. Sunburst Deliverers, however, rarely see play, even in casual games. For an example, please see this breakdown of SR2013 model usage for Menoth: (Choir is an outlier, because its practically required to run a successful Menoth list) http://privateerpressforums.com/showthread.php?170668-Model-Usage-in-SR2013-Masters

I'm not saying its a bad system, and I'm not trying to dissuade you from giving it a shot, but if you're going to try it because its touted as being more balanced, then thats not exactly a good reason... As I said, I did pick up a Menoth force, and I enjoy playing occasionally, but I don't play it because its more balanced (its not), or because the rules are tighter (they FAQ more things than GW does) or its cheaper (my force is almost as expensive). I play it because its a different system, more skirmish-oriented, and focused on the character, not the army.

That being said, if you're going to play, I HIGHLY recommend visiting the PP forums. The crowd there isn't as venomous as the crowd here, and they are less prone to complaining in the faction forums (though there is still plenty of complaining :p ). Plus, some of the best advice I've ever seen is from those forums

NagashLover
28-01-2014, 04:52
I personally haven't found Warmahordes to be any less expensive a hobby (I play Menoth/Circle/Skorne) but I will say the starter boxes are great value for what you get generally. Good luck to you and I can understand switching gears with different games and will say you have a lot of options to choose from. Warmahordes does ok with balance but the problem falls into that if you want to be competitive in all environments you really need to get into all the toys (the larger models can be very pricey) as the gameplay is filled with hard counters everywhere (which leads to just as many lopsided games as I've found for other systems). It's more like a fighting game where you go into it thinking you have a top tier character and realize you're playing as Dan from the Street Fighter series.

Still can be fun though!

I still recommend Monsterpocalypse over Warmahordes when I can though. Love that game. I also agree with what Surgency said 100%. I'm sure you know this but I'd just offer this advice. Plan to lose a lot at first, especially if you play say Circle over Legion, and start off small (small games obviously is where PP tends to be more cost effective) to save your wallet some strain.

Best of luck!

Sir Didymus
28-01-2014, 10:13
No hobby is more expensive than what you spend on it :)

That said; 40K has strayed far from being the skirmish game, I liked in Rogue Trader. Sure, you are now able to field tanks, hordes of infantry, giant robots and zooming fighter bombers, while getting your game done within a couple of hours. It has lost a lot in the tactical department, and sadly the do-it-yourself creative scratch builds has been all but lost. What's left is a game that gives you a chance to show off your huge army of minis, while having a bit of fun rolling dice, and this of course encourages larger and larger collections of miniatures for that EPIC feeling of grandiose battles.

Sadly GW had a game for the grandiose battles called EPIC, and although I prefer painting larger models, and I like the look of huge battle, its just not practical to lug around 7 cases of giant robots, tanks, planes and infantry, and playing larger games demand enormous space and terrain. Its also seems sad to spend a lot of time making each individual miniature look good, when their accomplishments amount to almost nothing on the field. Back in RT each individual mini had name tags, his own personal kill score - at least in our group, but what is important is that the game allowed for this.

mughi3
28-01-2014, 11:06
Agreed didymus
take classic battletech for example- a full "army" is only 4 or 5 minis so your in for $50-$70 but since there are what 600+ unique minis to choose from you tend to spend more because you want to try out a new lance/clan star, effectively building another army


I can recommend infinity without a doubt because cost wise is right around $100-$120 what makes it worth it is that
1.no 2 games are ever the same even with the same armies facing off because of the reaction mechanic or just by moving a couple pieces of terrain around
2.the rules are clear or quickly fixed on their wiki page
3.they have 3 systems to balance out the game -points cost/unit availability/support weapons costs
4.all weapons are standardized
5.your maxing out at about 10 minis in your force and due to game mechanics it really cannot be played much above that level reguardless if your playing a small 50 point game or a huge 300 point game.
6.lets not forget the minis are fantastic.

duffybear1988
28-01-2014, 13:06
I'm pretty much completely out of GW now as well (I only keep a few armies for the memories and for a quick pickup game every now and then). Have you considered some of the historical style games out there? I play a lot of Ronin and Dux Bellorum, both of which are very cheap and fun. I have also just purchased a Welsh warband for SAGA which again looks like a blast. 70 has nabbed me the SAGA rulebook, a fancy dice set, a 4 point army and a further 2 points worth of troops for another army. Not bad in the grand scheme of things.

Also consider Infinity and Malifaux for alternative sci-fi and fantasy avenues to explore.

IcedCrow
28-01-2014, 13:32
If only the other gaming systems out there that everyone leaves for weren't all low model count skirmish games...

Beppo1234
28-01-2014, 13:37
The main reason has become price. I'm now a full time Law student and as a result I've taken a 75% pay drop. ... When I'm printing money as a lawyer I'll be back to GW!

I wouldn't at all characterize this as leaving the hobby, as much as putting it on hold, or taking a break.

Harwammer
28-01-2014, 14:43
How about just not buying new stuff? I assume you already have armies, copies of the rules and hobby materials. You can always stay in touch with the hobby by repainting or converting old minis, and gaming using your existing collection.

When I am short on cash I focus on making terrain from garbage, paper crafting vehicles and going back to old/abandoned projects.

Not saying you shouldn't become a warmachine consumer, especially if you are looking at treating yourself to new stuff, I am just failing to see how new GW stuff being expensive invalidates your 10 years of collecting.

Menthak
28-01-2014, 18:52
Warhammer players never quit, they just go MIA.

Seriously, either you find what you're looking for or you come back, either way, good luck.

Draconis
29-01-2014, 03:37
I found warmachine to be quite fun, but I haven't played it since it's original versions. Hordes was even better imo, since I've always been more fantasy than steampunk. I also enjoyed Flames of War quite a bit.

Abaraxas
29-01-2014, 03:55
How about just not buying new stuff? I assume you already have armies, copies of the rules and hobby materials. You can always stay in touch with the hobby by repainting or converting old minis, and gaming using your existing collection.

When I am short on cash I focus on making terrain from garbage, paper crafting vehicles and going back to old/abandoned projects.

Not saying you shouldn't become a warmachine consumer, especially if you are looking at treating yourself to new stuff, I am just failing to see how new GW stuff being expensive invalidates your 10 years of collecting.

I echo these sentiments.

duffybear1988
29-01-2014, 10:49
If only the other gaming systems out there that everyone leaves for weren't all low model count skirmish games...

Well there is always Kings of War. I recently started playing it with my brother as we dislike the hordes needed for Fantasy but still like 20+ men to a unit. The rules are simple and there isn't as much of the wackiness found in Fantasy, but I haven't really found it much of a problem.

Have you tried modding LoTR? It's still a great system after all these years.

Alternatively Dux Bellorum allows for any unit size (it's actually based on the unit base size rather than amount of figures) and can be converted to anything pretty easily. So far I have run samurai vs undead games, English civil war battles, and the traditional dark ages combat that it was designed for. The rules are cheap and easy to learn and not cluttered with pointless extra tacky add-ons.

Really there's plenty for fantasy style gaming if you are willing to do a little bit of work modding the unit options. I have played Hail Caesar using counts as for unit rules and that worked pretty well. I'm looking at Black Powder now as another alternative.

You could always try Bolt Action for modern/sci-fi settings. The rules are easy enough to change slightly. Oh and don't forget Beyond the Gates of Antares is back on track using modified Bolt Action rules. That's going to cater to bigger skirmish games from what I can tell - think 3rd edition 40K for army sizes.

Honestly there's plenty of choice if you are willing to try something different and put a couple of hours of work into creating unit stats. The problem with GW these days is the rules are just too cluttered with junk that isn't needed. Now you can cut half of that away and they are OK games. Personally for me though, there is something liberating about not being stuck in the pure GW mindset any more.

IcedCrow
29-01-2014, 12:55
I play hail caesar and have tried kings of war. Problem is no one else wants to try ;-)

I do have my own fantasy and sci-fi games that I wrote that I enjoy, but honestly unless its 40k or warhammer or warmachine here... you aren't getting a game with anyone else. There is an active Flames of War group as well but I'm not big on WWII games.

wanderingblade
29-01-2014, 14:01
Are we talking accessible for new players, or accessible for veterans wondering about the competition?

In the latter case - couldn't you get a lot of stuff cheaper from ebay/online retailers/trades if you wanted to? I hear Australia is a hellhole for GW pricing but even so. Seems to me that you feel you're not getting you money's worth in terms of rules support and that's a big reason for why you're looking at Privateer and to be honest, I think rules support is probably a bigger thing for a lot of us. It needs to be quicker and better. I think GW are waking up to that, but whether they'll actually execute...

Nazguire
30-01-2014, 00:33
There is the rules support part, where I feel that GW have lost any pretence of trying to make a balanced game in favour of selling the biggest kit they can for as much as possible. How many Eldar armies do you see without a Wraithknight nowadays? It isn't just because the model is nice (though it is) it's due to its ridiculous weaponry that doesn't fit in 40K's current structure.
Online retailers don't generally sell for much less, at least the Australian ones I've looked at. You might get $5-$10 off that's eaten up in shipping. It's better to buy in bulk, which isn't ideal for me.
i have no problem with 40K taking a couple hours for a 1500 point game due to its turn structure and unit special rules, for the most part. More over I have the issue that GW doesn't even try and balance the game any more, and that their pricing in Australia is way out of sync of the rest of the world. I'm just sort of falling out with GW in general.

Khornies & milk
30-01-2014, 01:24
Being an aussie I know where you're coming from mate. My group (50 odd) just gave a collective sigh when that Row/Embargo hit, and we just simply said screw it and looked at other company's gaming systems and haven't looked back since....6th ed just endorsed our justification for leaving GW behind.

In the end do what makes sense to you and go for it, and if/when things change then do whatever makes sense again....simple really.
Best of luck!

Kakapo42
30-01-2014, 09:31
You know it's funny, but I actually rather like that GW hasn't 'kept up with the times'. I'm not really one to keep up with the times myself. I'm increasingly becoming a grumbly old technophobe with a yearning for the good old days. I don't want a competitive skirmish-level game, and I like having massive hefty tomes of rules, I don't want them digitised. So I don't have much to complain about with GW at the moment. Sure, they got rid of the Specialist Games and are phasing out metal models, and the pricing is a bit... off, I'll give you that, but it hasn't reached the point of being a deal-breaker for me just yet.

So if I were to do something to improve GW and their products, I'd actually take a move or two backwards, not forwards. Bring back some of the style and atmosphere of the past (especially the early 2000s), put back the articles on the website, encourage more converting and scratch-building terrain, bring back the battlemat as a cheaper alternative to the Realm of Battle board, and so on and so forth. From what I've seen so far the new weekly White Dwarf looks like a definite step in the right direction.

So, in short: Bah! What's so bad about the old ways anyway! People these days with their digital things and tablets and doo-hickeys grumblegrumblegrumble....

And good luck with your new hobby adventures. Perhaps you'll be happier with them.

Nazguire
30-01-2014, 16:57
Being an aussie I know where you're coming from mate. My group (50 odd) just gave a collective sigh when that Row/Embargo hit, and we just simply said screw it and looked at other company's gaming systems and haven't looked back since....6th ed just endorsed our justification for leaving GW behind.

In the end do what makes sense to you and go for it, and if/when things change then do whatever makes sense again....simple really.
Best of luck!

The way GW treats Australian customers with contempt with their pricing and where you can buy their. Oreos online staggers me at times. UK and US customers complain about high prices? Get a load of Oz prices, where the average box set has doubled in price in under ten years, with less models in it. Or how buying. Models from overseas is not allowed nowadays. Blows me away.

I probably need to find a gaming group that has more than one system played in it, a healthy dose of GW, Privateer Press, Infinity, etc. variety is the spice of life.

I definitelu do agree that more atmosphere and creativity is needed. Supplements like the Eye of Terror and global campaigns like the 13th. Black Crusade were fantastic and those times were filled with great memories.

Why'd they stop doing global campaigns?